prag16
Banned
This as well. The weak CPU/strong GPU setup is a road all three next gen consoles have gone down.
Wii U is also looking to be closer to PS4/Durango than PS360 in terms of GPU feature set.
The Wii U in a worse or better shape after the PS4 reveal?
- Thread starter JaxJag
- Start date
Wii U is also looking to be closer to PS4/Durango than PS360 in terms of GPU feature set.
Nostremitus
Member
By that logic, everyone would still be making games for the PS2, because it wouldn't have made any sense the exclude the audience and make games for the PS360...
There's not much you can do with such hardware, in the best case scenario WD on Wii U will look marginally better than the 360/PS3....Not to mention that the game will likely be CPU bound and that's not the Wii U's strongest suit.
What is sure is that the gab between the Wii U and the next-gen versions (PC/PS4/720) will be significant.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
As costs rise, so does support for more platforms to spread those costs/risk. Just as the incidence for multiplatform development rose with each passing generation, so has (and will) crossgen development. And honestly, it wasn't exactly uncommon with the PS2/360 transition already.
PS4 and (possibly) Durango dropping backwards compatibility also means more crossgen projects too, as publishers will want to hit every base possible.
Given WiiU will do better lighting and DoF than PS4 and the PS4/XB3 will do better textures and particles, the WiiU has definitely struck a performance parity with systems that needlessly packing more power than WiiU. So economically WiiU is in a better place, or it should be.
Based off his prediction? What nonsense is this? How do you figure it can do better lighting?
No, I wasn't discounting that or directly disagreeing with you. I feel like we will see many cross-generation games for a while, and they will sell fairly well, too.
It's common sense. The combination of HD fidelity on PS360 being "good enough" + the large install base makes it more likely.
It's a joke.
prag16
Banned
As I stated above, PS4/Durango went the weak CPU route as well. Ports from that direction may be a different story than ports from the highly CPU dependent PS3 (all devs complaining that I saw were doing PS3 ports... Cell probably actually is stronger than these 8 Jaguar (netbook) cores by some measures).
metalslimer
Member
Well considering many games at the beginning of this gen were done on the last gen consoles as well, cross gen games isn't a new thing.
Based solely on the PS4 presentation, I'm more interested in a WiiU than a PS4 (Of course, I was more interested in the WiiU before too because one plays Mario and the other doesn't but that's just me).
Honestly, if all we have to look forward to from the "next-gen consoles" are prettier versions of stuff we've already played, I might as well just get a PC and be done with it (and I think I will, particularly because it can be useful for other things too). Stuff like Gaikai, the Share button, and remote play on the Vita are cool and really should have been the focus but none of the games they've shown (so far) look interesting to me personally. What's different about them? What's unique and can't be done on the PS3? What makes them not just "Game where you shoot guys" or "Game where you drive a car"? You can talk about graphics and shaders and lighting all you want but you can't make me care.
That said, if you're excited for the PS4, I sincerely hope you enjoy it. I'm just old and have been at this hobby too long
Edit: I get that a big part of Sony's push was offering power for creative developers to make more creative games and I can't wait to see what it does in 2-3 years when I might actually get one. Right now though, not interested.
Honestly, if all we have to look forward to from the "next-gen consoles" are prettier versions of stuff we've already played, I might as well just get a PC and be done with it (and I think I will, particularly because it can be useful for other things too). Stuff like Gaikai, the Share button, and remote play on the Vita are cool and really should have been the focus but none of the games they've shown (so far) look interesting to me personally. What's different about them? What's unique and can't be done on the PS3? What makes them not just "Game where you shoot guys" or "Game where you drive a car"? You can talk about graphics and shaders and lighting all you want but you can't make me care.
That said, if you're excited for the PS4, I sincerely hope you enjoy it. I'm just old and have been at this hobby too long
Edit: I get that a big part of Sony's push was offering power for creative developers to make more creative games and I can't wait to see what it does in 2-3 years when I might actually get one. Right now though, not interested.
Actually rumor has that the Jaguar cores (at least on the Sony side) have underwent improvements, they aren't regular Jaguar cores in that sense.
Unfortunately, the Wii U is several leagues behind in that regard.
prag16
Banned
So this is a rumor; and how large is a "league" exactly?
dream431ca
Banned
I think the Wii U launched too early in the first place. Yes it's nice to launch first in some cases, but when your competitors show off their specs for their new consoles (plus Sony made it very clear that the PS4 wants to be developer friendly as possible), then you have an issue. Nintendo would have been better off to make their system more powerful and launch a little closer to the release of the other consoles.
8 customized cores at 1.6 should vastly outperform the Wii U's CPU. There's no question that the game on Wii U will look nowhere close to its next-gen counterparts.
People talk about WiiU not getting down ports, but traditionally, that isn't how the industry has operated. Developers intent on getting a wide audience tend to make to the lowest common denominator.
Of course, there are the odd titles that are exclusive to a system due to features and hard ware, but many of those were going to be exclusive anyway.
Of course, third party and Nintendo will likely be a similar issue, and the current situation is probably not enticing any devs. Nintendo should try and capitalise on their head start by trying to get a bigger install base.
Of course, there are the odd titles that are exclusive to a system due to features and hard ware, but many of those were going to be exclusive anyway.
Of course, third party and Nintendo will likely be a similar issue, and the current situation is probably not enticing any devs. Nintendo should try and capitalise on their head start by trying to get a bigger install base.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
CPU power has very little correlation to how a game looks.
AZ Greg
Member
I've been seeing this a lot lately and it usually comes from Nintendo fans, for obvious reasons. But why wasn't this the attitude when Nintendo was releasing new games from their big franchises from NES to SNES to N64 to GC and they were mostly just graphical updates with some small gameplay tweaks here and there? I guess it is just a coincidence that now that Nintendo has decided to adopt a different strategy with new consoles that the old standard is all of a sudden unacceptable.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
The difference between;
SMB1 -> SMB3 -> SMW -> SM64 -> SMS -> SMG
or
LoZ -> LTTP -> OoT -> WW -> TP -> SS
is significantly more than "graphical updates and some small gameplay tweaks here and there"
I think your argument is partially off base. While the core gamer group who are into the ps3/xbox while ignore the wii for the most part. The broader market will ignore the wiiu until nintendo releases a software title to begin capturing various broad market segments. I'm not talking about wiifit or wiisports sequels here. I'd bet we will see quite a few casual/broad focused new IP's.
The entire system is primarily designed to maximize their chances of creating gaming experiences that have a broad market appeal across multiple spectrum. They pretty much built a better wii around a very specific driving force.
This does not mean that everything the try on the wiiu is going to catch on. BUT the system is designed to maximize the opportunity and potential to create titles that do catch on. This is what we will see unfold in the next 24 months.
They still will try and appeal to their core but on the whole they are going to make multiple attempt at the broad market. Its quite smart, let me explain in purely hypothetical scenario.
Let say Nintendo creates 5 broad consumer centric IP's following the same methodology they used to create wii sports, wii fit, brain age, nintendogs, etc. The key here is they are creating 5 new games and user experinces, not sequals. To me it appears there focus will be on creating games from a structural standpoint of emotional engagement, easy & familiar accessibility wrapped up in a tactile user experience.
(this is why they are using a tablet, its familiar to most people but different enough from competitors while giving them a great canvas to create unique experience)
The time and money required to create 5 of these types of games I bet is still faster and cheaper then producing a single core gamer AAA title.
All they need is 1 of those 5 new titles to "hook" into the mainstream audience. These types of games tend generate free PR and media attention because they surprise people and have a "fad" like quality to them. Once mass media starts talking about these games the momentum builds and now those other games in the group of 5 I just mentioned start to become more popular because they to have that mass appeal.
But all they need is 1 title to penetrate the media and start making headway into the general mass market once again.
I mentioned this earlier but Nintendo is the only game company that has been able to generate broad market interest more then once and they have done it on more then 1 platform. That fact is VERY telling and important. It shows what they do is NOT a fluke.
People have tried to argue that capturing the mass market is like catching lisghtening in a bottle. Well nintendo ias a heck of track record at doing it multiple times. This indicates they have a method to the madness, a formula or sorts. While this does not guarantee they will create a mass market winner in itself it does show the odds are in their favor.
As a betting man, I'd take that bet given their track record in the wii/ds era.
Indeed, I should have specified that I was alluding to the mere possibility of WD having a less vivid world because of its allegedly weaker CPU.
Think about the wind effects, the number of PNJs for instance. Will the Wii U be on par with the next-gen versions in this respect ?
Time will tell, I'm interested to see how much they had to downgrade it to make it run on the Wii U.
It might not. We can discuss the technical feasibility of downports, but it's moot of publishers are unwilling to commit to such efforts in the first place. So that, in my mind, is the most important barrier to Wii U ports.
Well yes, the GCN did poorly and the Wii did phenomenal. When you see something is working and something else is failing it's typically a good idea to change you mind on how things should be done. Also consider that N64 -> GCN isn't PS3 -> PS4, there are differences like diminishing returns or flourishing development based on artstyles that simply don't need that kind of power to make one question whether that's a good path to pursue for what supposed to be "next-gen."
Pancakes R Us
Member
It's a very specific subset of Nintendo fans, my friend. These guys are an elite band of warriors that will defend Nintendo regardless, and will find ways of putting down other companies but won't see the same faults in Nintendo. I've been playing Nintendo systems for ages, and hold their games to the highest regard, but could not use the quoted argument to say something like NSMB U was so new and exciting that couldn't really be done before, hah. Oh yes, the second player can use the game pad to help or hinder you...that is so exciting! The next Mario Kart and Smash Bros? I'd be surprised if either of those are much more than graphical upgrades. Not to say that this is a bad thing - just that any Nintendo fanboy who says that all Sony is bringing to the table is nothing new should look a little closer to home.
This.
Mario 64 is not the same game as Super Mario World. That's an example of using the technology to do stuff in the game you couldn't previously do. Ditto Metal Gear Solid using the PS1's technical capabilities to make a completely new and different and arguably better game, or how the Xbox used the Internet and a dedicated service to change the dynamic of how we played console games together. I'd like to see stuff like that, where you take these existing concepts and do something different with them other than just make them better-looking. That's why the PS4 stuff about streaming and remote play was interesting to me, but the games were not.
Heck, maybe the WiiU Mario will be a minor upgrade from Galaxy, and I'll be a little annoyed by that if it's the case (probably not too much because I liked Galaxy an awful lot).
I'm not saying Nintendo is innocent of this at all. It's kind of a broader problem in the industry as a whole.
AZ Greg
Member
That about sums it up.
At least I'm honest.
The one thing that I don't understand with regards to this rumor is that if AMD has an improved Jaguar core ready to go, why aren't we seeing them in the upcoming AMD APU processors on the shelf? AMD would be insane to surrender any performance gains when there already is a gap between their chips and Intel's.
I think it's much more likely that these cores are mostly standard Jaguar cores, perhaps modified to have some PC specific functionality taken out (like the largely obsolete x87 FPU etc.) and to allow for 8 cores on a die as opposed to the 4 in the upcoming Jaguar A6.
Is there a good source for these improvements and what they might be?
Also, for what it's worth, I think the WiiU will be in fine shape once we have a larger selection of Nintendo titles. Just like the Wii, it'll be the logical second console for those with PC, 720 or PS4s. The PS4 announcement won't change that.
AZ Greg
Member
And it is refreshing. A lot more refreshing than the fans who were coincidentally tired of standard controllers when Nintendo announced the Wii.
AppleBlade
Member
So the WiiU is a shinier version of current generation consoles that sells at a price . . . that is comparable to current generation consoles (A 360 with a harddrive is $300 and one with a harddrive and Kinect is $400 and the PS3 starts at $270).
I fail to see the problem with pricing.
I'm not a total Nintendo apologist. I wish Nintendo would have dropped hardware backwards compatibility and have gone with a proper CPU that had an x86 architecture to make ports more common place. I also wish that they had a SKU with a decent sized built in HDD. I also wish they would have added achievements . . . but at the end of the day, they made the decisions they made and I do not see price being one of the missteps with the Wii U (as in, even if it was $50-$100 dollars cheaper I do not necessarily see it being in a better position then it is today, in fact it would probably be in worse shape as Nintendo would be bleeding money and have their hands tied up for future price drops).
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Pointer + nunchuk was a godly control scheme for third person shooters, and it is a shame that it never got enough use as such.
Never went that far, though I was pretty intrigued by the prospect of the controller before it came out. It never really delivered but I had some good times with it.
Honestly, I just really like Mario, Punch-Out!, Pokemon, Donkey Kong, Fire Emblem, etc. and I will buy whatever system those are on. That's my bias, and I accept it. (Don't really care much about Zelda, weirdly enough).
Preferences and fanboyism aside, I still think that we're getting into a rut with the industry as a whole, Nintendo included, and I really hope we start seeing some innovation beyond just better-looking graphics. The PS4 conference didn't do much to inspire hope, but I hope that devs do use all that horsepower to do something more than Prettier Version of Killzone. (Like a prettier version of Playstation All-Stars.)
Phantast2k
Member
I'm pretty sure that the x86, similar/related specs train that is PS4/720/steambox/pc will whiz by WiiU while it can't even sell enough units in time to warrant GC-level 3rd-party support and the console will fail to reach 20-30m that the GC ended up being at (because they can't do price cuts as easily as they did before).
well lets hope that it will be the case with the wiiu. im pissed that capcom is not going to have it for resident evil revelations though..
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
This seems like a fair and logical assessment to make 3 months into a 5 year sales period.
Wait, what?
EDIT:
Looks like the split controller with pointer control scheme (which was great) has gone the same route of "nice control ideas that never caught on" that the GCs analogue + click triggers and 8 way thumbstick gate went.
There's a big difference between porting HD games to 480p and porting them to another HD console. There's nowhere near as large a graphical leap this gen which should make it easier to continue releasing downscaled games for the PS3/360.
Phantast2k
Member
Ok, but isn't it also selling worse than GC with the latter inheriting the less than hot N64, while WiiU is the successor to the very successful Wii? And even worse than PS3 that was twice as expensive while having the same "no games" mantra..
Does Nintendo possess the same pricing leeway they have had with the Wii?
Even when the Wii sold like hotcakes a lot of 3rd parties struggled with sales on the platform so it's only fair to assume that this time around, they'll completely overlook WiiU when it comes to their big titles/non-annual titles, especially if there is this other, super homogeneous platform in PS4/720/steambox_pc *.
/* that potentially allows them to distribute their games much more efficiently/prevent used games sales
//drops mic
DICKS AHOY
Banned
For me it's in the same shape it was in long before the PS4 reveal. An HD system held back by a weird gimmick which hasn't been utilized nearly as well as it should've been by its designers yet will still probably play host to a ton of exclusive games I'll want to play. Not trying to argue Nintendoland or NSMBU are heavyhitters or worth giving a shit about in the long run, but if E3 doesn't bring us any major new exclusives I don't see KZ4 or a new Infamous game doing particularly big numbers either.
Stands to be seen just how robust PS4's friends system is (since at the moment it is looking far more interesting than Miiverse), but the relative power of the hardware and software lineup is more or less what I was expecting. It'll be interesting to see how Sony markets it at the end of the year, especially if a high price isn't something they can avoid. It made me want to get a Vita to a certain extent; they could try to cross-promote that at the same time.
Stands to be seen just how robust PS4's friends system is (since at the moment it is looking far more interesting than Miiverse), but the relative power of the hardware and software lineup is more or less what I was expecting. It'll be interesting to see how Sony markets it at the end of the year, especially if a high price isn't something they can avoid. It made me want to get a Vita to a certain extent; they could try to cross-promote that at the same time.
well nintendo is still going to use it.
you are making your assessment completely without nintendos first party lineup and with the fact that their titles have gained in popularity a lot.
shinra-bansho
Member
Huh? You asked how much the PS3 was selling at $599 or the 360 at $399. They were selling far more, at a far higher price in January 2006 and 2007 respectively. I'm not sure what part of "in their third months" was incomprehensible.
Also I have no idea what you're on about with the latter part. The Wii U ASP is around $330.
The PS3 and 360 ASP last time we had numbers was ~$260. JVM hasn't given figures recently that I can find.
900K for Other. 830K Japan iirc.
Liabe Brave
Member
The transition from 2D to 3D in there, sure. But can you please describe the gigantic gameplay changes between SMB3 and SMW? Or between Ocarina and Wind Waker? Protip: there are none.
At every generation transition, people complain like this. "Oh, these just look like prettier versions of the same thing, who cares?" Which totally ignores that all games will be prettier, not just the ones you don't enjoy. There is no enormous gameplay change from LoZ to LttP...but LttP being a great deal prettier is an upgrade. And increased processing power does sometime allow new design or new approaches.
An increased ceiling for all developers is a good thing, whether you enjoy what some of them have done with that capacity or not.
Manmademan
Member
the market was entirely different as well. The leading consoles of the generation prior sold roughly 50 million (SNES) and 30 million (Genesis) worldwide- and at least in the case of the SNES, a decent sized chunk of that sold through 1996, when it's successor came out- it's numbers were lower in 1994.
Sony's numbers for that period were right in line with what a good console would have done the generation prior. The crazy marketing campaigns that started to hit around the time of FF7 took sales to levels unheard of at that time.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Despite it's disasterous January, Wii U is still ahead of PS3 launch alinged, even taking out Europe. Also still well ahead of 360 launch aligned too, though that system was still supply constrained in two regions at this point.
Which also means PS360 undersold Gamecube launch. Just so long as you're basing this off that sort comparision, it's worth noting that most consoles actually did worse than GCN launch. Wii did too in the US even iirc.
These are legitimate arguments. I don't necessarily disagree, and as I said in 2-3 years hopefully we'll see some really creative uses of that new technology.
metalslimer
Member
From someone who has obviously never played either game. Or from someone who honestly thinks that just because you play as link and kill enemies with a sword the gameplay is the same. The whole light/dark world mechanic alone introduces a gigantic shit in the gameplay between the two that I honestly can't believe anyone would say the gameplay is not vastly different. Sure you can make the argument that there hasn't been a vast change since OoT, but LoZ-LoZ2-LTTP,and OoT were all big shifts.
I'm saying this as a huge Nintendo fan (see I have a Bowser avatar that proves it).
OoT -> WW -> TP -> SS - is essentially the same 4 games in a different setting. Why do you think people are always bitching that Zelda needs to change?
SM64 -> SMS - Is essentially a map pack for Mario 64 with a dumb water backpack add-on.
Not to mention...
Mario Kart
F-Zero
NSMB
Star Fox
Pokemon
Advance Wars
Mario sports titles
etc etc etc are all the same game remade with graphical updates and a few more refined features incrementally added in with each generation's version of the game (ok maybe Pokemon and Advance Wars have different stories but who gives a shit lol).
Its fine if you guys don't like the types of games on PS3 and thus aren't interested in more technically advanced versions of them, but lets be honest here, the only MAJOR jump for a Nintendo console involving fundamental gameplay changes for practically every franchise was SNES -> N64.
the gc fell off a cliff after its pretty good launch (although it was vastly overshadowed by halo at its launch too) and never recovered.
nintendo really needs to get their shit together not to fall into that pit.
No one who's played those two games could possibly say that with a straight face. I'd argue there's more of a difference even gameplay wise between LoZ and LttP then there was between LttP and OoT.
While I'd agree that the actual jumps aren't quantum leaps in gameplay I don't agree with your point that they're the same game. I think there are just as many people getting annoyed that Zelda keeps changing. If Twilight Princess was never released I would argue the Zelda series shows more variety and flexibility than just about any other series ever. Granted TP did release, and it was basically OoT again, but only really because many fans wanted it after Wind Waker.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
D:
I'd like to think the PS4 reveal didn't do much to Wii U's prospects. It's struggling due to its own issues. Personally, I think the system is great - some bugs/issues aside - and I think it will live or die on the strength of its first party. It was clear before Sony showed (or didn't) the PS4 that third party on the Wii U was a bit of wishful thinking.
I also think accusing Sony of just releasing another faceless HD box is selling them short - a lot of it comes off as really ambitious to me. Having both is appealing, though - Sony who push the bar for console power, and Nintendo who are one of the last holdouts for great, non violent platformer/local multi games.
Liabe Brave
Member
I don't believe the world switching is a big change in gameplay design, just in scope. Essentially, you pass obstacles by going to the Dark World where they don't exist, and then returning. This is barely different in design-functional terms to passing an obstacle by using a secret passageway. What's different is that it's under player control (though it's not useful except where the designers made it so), instead of determined by invariant topology.
But I think it's still quite similar in outline and in how the player uses it. The sensation of difference comes from the fact that it has a huge visual effect: it isn't really different gameplay, but it looks a ton better. Which is the thing people are saying is supposedly boring and bad.
Yet even if I grant that the world-switching was huge, I don't think it demolishes the argument that generational shifts don't always mean seismic changes in gameplay. Nintendo have had 4 generational shifts in Zelda. I think only 1 of them had a big effect on gameplay, you think 2 did. Our positions don't sound that far apart.