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The Witness |OT|

Mik2121

Member
And as always, release on the JP PSN Store: Unknown, not announced.

I swear the Japanese PSN store and it's library is the worst and stinkiest piece of steamy shit I have ever seen.


:(


Buying this on Steam.

(Edit: Please notice that I'm purposely exaggerating this, though the store is indeed crap :p)
 
There is nothing new or unique about this. Portal did it. The Talos Principle did it. Many other puzzle games have that aspect of rule sets building upon each other. In fact, tons of non-puzzle games have this element too. That idea in itself is not compelling enough to me to make a good game.

There are too many games out there now that seem to be attempting to say something that is completely disconnected from the gameplay itself. I was really hoping that The Witness would deliver on the promise that something like The Talos Principle tried to. But in the end this looks like another game that exists as a framework to tell an unrelated story.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
There's a big difference between how Portal or Talos operate versus how a game like Myst or The Witness operates.
 
And as always, release on the JP PSN Store: Unknown, not announced.

I swear the Japanese PSN store and it's library is the worst and stinkiest piece of steamy shit I have ever seen.


:(


Buying this on Steam.

Is there any reason you wouldn't just make an account for a different PSN region? I mean, you're not wrong about the Japanese PSN store not being very good (especially for western games), but it's a pretty simple thing to work around.
 

Nixed

Neo Member
Pretty hyped, but the lack of music going to bug me. I already have an irrational fear of jumpscares in games -- even ones that absolutely wont have any -- these days, and the silence won't help. Still, I can already think of a handful of DI.fm channels that'd be good pairings.
 
Where are you getting this from?

It's an assumption based on reviews I've read and videos I've watched.

I was hoping that there was more of a narrative and that the mechanics of the puzzles were connected to it in some way. That's something that left me disappointed in Talos.

I dunno. Maybe I was just giving the game too much credit or putting too much hope in it. And to be fair, I haven't played it yet. But it seems like it's just not what I was hoping for.
 

Mik2121

Member
Is there any reason you wouldn't just make an account for a different PSN region? I mean, you're not wrong about the Japanese PSN store not being very good (especially for western games), but it's a pretty simple thing to work around.

Yeah, I have an account I use for my US-region DLC purchases, but I can't use my credit card there so I need to buy some US PSN prepaid card and will end up spending more money than if I bought the game from Steam :/
 
Pretty hyped, but the lack of music going to bug me. I already have an irrational fear of jumpscares in games -- even ones that absolutely wont have any -- these days, and the silence won't help. Still, I can already think of a handful of DI.fm channels that'd be good pairings.
The game's not silent. It just doesn't have music. The company that did the sound design for Dead Space and Ori worked on The Witness
 
I'm in, and likely out until after reading through more tomorrow morning before it drops.

I want to try to experience this as it seems it is intended: with no spoilers and only my own subjective experiences for context. At least that's how *I* want to Witness the Island the first time around.

I am so grateful this is finally here. It's been a long wait. I hope to get my daughter to play with me and see if the iterative puzzles are something she can work with. I hope we can have multiple profiles in Steam. If not, I can always disable sync and do it manually.

Thank You!
 
It's an assumption based on reviews I've read and videos I've watched.

I was hoping that there was more of a narrative and that the mechanics of the puzzles were connected to it in some way. That's something that left me disappointed in Talos.

I dunno. Maybe I was just giving the game too much credit or putting too much hope in it. And to be fair, I haven't played it yet. But it seems like it's just not what I was hoping for.

Let's be real, you're not giving it enough credit. You're underestimating the ways the game will surprise and confuse and challenge you. You're purposefully ignoring the people who are helpfully explaining where the depth and purpose of the game comes from because you have a shallow understanding of what games can or should be, so you can't see past the minimalistic, intuitive user interface.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
There is nothing new or unique about this. Portal did it. The Talos Principle did it. Many other puzzle games have that aspect of rule sets building upon each other. In fact, tons of non-puzzle games have this element too. That idea in itself is not compelling enough to me to make a good game.

There are too many games out there now that seem to be attempting to say something that is completely disconnected from the gameplay itself. I was really hoping that The Witness would deliver on the promise that something like The Talos Principle tried to. But in the end this looks like another game that exists as a framework to tell an unrelated story.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

I am not familiar with the Talos Principal, but what The Witness is doing is very different from Portal. That game had a handful of concepts and taught them to the player, similar to The Witness. But the comparisons really end there. The philosophy behind the puzzle design, and the design of the overall game and how things fit together, are not similar.

Blow himself elaborated on the some of the differences in an interview last fall.

"I work very differently from a lot of designers," says Blow. "A lot of people when they sit down to design a puzzle game, they try to think up some smart things that are hard to figure out, stuff where people will be like ‘Gotcha!' and figure it out and feel smart themselves. That's step one. Then step two, they think of how to teach those mechanics to players."

Blow cites Valve as one of the best developers at this style of design, although he notes with a sigh that they "haven't designed a game in a long time." But Blow himself doesn't believe in designing this way, because he thinks it can lead to overly conservative, hand-holding gameplay.


"The Witness is the anti-Nintendo," Blow says with a smile. "Nintendo has to have a little fairy follow you around and tell you everything all the time. Those kind of games drive me nuts. This is going the other way. It's more like the original Legend of Zelda, which didn't tell you anything. But at some point — a lot of companies do this, they start making a game, and they put it through focus testing, and any time someone gets stuck you consider it bad and change the game. That leads to extremely conservative, mechanical games."

Blow is certain that players will get stuck in The Witness. He's just not afraid of it; this is why he's designed it as an open-world game.

"If a game's really linear, and you have something really hard in the middle and someone gets stuck, you sort of just screwed them," he says. "And different people get stuck on different things, so it's not like if I'm a good designer I'll design something that no one gets stuck on. If you're going to design something that no one gets stuck on, it has to not really be a puzzle."

Instead, Blow has embraced non-linear design. When a player gets stuck in any particular area, they have the freedom to run to a different area, a different set of puzzles, and try to solve those instead.

"I like open-world games," Blow says. "It's the coolest thing in the world to see something in the game that's really far away and just go there. That used to not be technologically possible except by cheating, but now it's possible."

And sure enough, you can go pretty much anywhere you can see in The Witness from the very start of the game. Want to run off to the windmill near the center of the island? Feel free. See a shipwreck off the coast that you'd like to explore? It's all yours. Blow has built in a generously speedy run button that will allow players to cross from one end of the island to the other in just a few minutes. It's far from the biggest landmass ever seen in an open-world game, but to Blow size isn't the point; density is.

"I don't like developers competing over how big their world is," he says. "A bigger world leads to a lot of downtime or boring time as a player, because you've got to go somewhere. Or you get something like Skyrim that has fast travel, but then it's not really a world anymore."

Instead, Blow has built a more reasonably-sized world in The Witness, but one that has puzzles to solve at every turn and many recognizable landmarks, such as a giant castle or a set of desert ruins. Different areas are set apart from each other both by distinct looks and colors — a green swamp, a vibrant red forest, etc. — and by puzzles that follow a certain thread of logic from beginning to end.

For his part, Blow says he designs puzzles to be "first and foremost a representation of an idea, non-verbally." Rather than just being a tricky thing for a player to solve, he wants each puzzle to say something to the player. He does this by actually writing out a sentence for each puzzle.

"When I sit down to start designing a puzzle, the first thing I ask is what the sentence describing it would say," Blow explains. "It might be like ‘OK, you can separate black spots from white spots. And they can be in groups. And it can matter what direction you wind around.' Each of those is a specific statement. Those statements get more subtle and sophisticated as the game goes on, so that by the end, if you were to try to say what you were doing when with one of the more complicated puzzles in the game, it would probably be like two paragraphs long."
http://www.polygon.com/features/201...-jonathan-blow-interview-ps4-playstation-4-pc
 

Trojan

Member
I dunno. Maybe I was just giving the game too much credit or putting too much hope in it. And to be fair, I haven't played it yet. But it seems like it's just not what I was hoping for.

Most of the reviews indicate that this game will definitely not be for everyone. No shame in that. I've never gotten the Persona or Danganronpan games myself but frequently am told I'm missing out. Just doesn't interest me.
 

Fat4all

Banned
Most of the reviews indicate that this game will definitely not be for everyone. No shame in that. I've never gotten the Persona or Danganronpan games myself but frequently am told I'm missing out. Just doesn't interest me.

Sometimes I wish I could like Dynasty Warriors games. I didn't even like Hyrule Warriors much.

:/
 
I am not familiar with the Talos Principal, but what The Witness is doing is very different from Portal. That game had a handful of concepts and taught them to the player, similar to The Witness. But the comparisons really end there. The philosophy behind the puzzle design, and the design of the overall game and how things fit together, are not similar.

You really should play Talos Principle after The Witness.

On an unrelated note, it just occurred to me that we could have named the OT

The Witness |OT| ●─●● ●● ─● ● ●●● / ─── ●●─● / ─●●● ●─●● ─── ●──
 
Let's be real, you're not giving it enough credit. You're underestimating the ways the game will surprise and confuse and challenge you. You're purposefully ignoring the people who are helpfully explaining where the depth and purpose of the game comes from because you have a shallow understanding of what games can or should be, so you can't see past the minimalistic, intuitive user interface.

To be honest all I hear is "the line puzzles get more complex as the game goes along" and no one has been able to show me anything that proves it's really deeper than that.

Ultimately this is a bunch of people who have not played the game yet debating about what it is and isn't. It's not that productive. I will still very likely check out the game. Again, maybe I'll be proven wrong and see that there really is something more there.
 
To be honest all I hear is "the line puzzles get more complex as the game goes along" and no one has been able to show me anything that proves it's really deeper than that.

Ultimately this is a bunch of people who have not played the game yet debating about what it is and isn't. It's not that productive. I will still very likely check out the game. Again, maybe I'll be proven wrong and see that there really is something more there.
The two trailers clearly show some ways that the panels let you interact with the world
Gameplay trailer | Release date trailer
 

Feep

Banned
To be honest all I hear is "the line puzzles get more complex as the game goes along" and no one has been able to show me anything that proves it's really deeper than that.

Ultimately this is a bunch of people who have not played the game yet debating about what it is and isn't. It's not that productive. I will still very likely check out the game. Again, maybe I'll be proven wrong and see that there really is something more there.
The line puzzles are simply methods of input for understanding or solving any number of arbitrarily complex rules and mechanics. This is like boiling the game of chess down to "well you just move pieces over and over again."

Frankly, your extreme negativity toward something you haven't played is a little ridiculous. Let's give it a shot first, shall we?
 

jetjevons

Bish loves my games!
Can I just say I'm prepostourosly excited for this. Braid left a marked impression on me. There are few games that marry mechanics and message in perfect unison. I'm 100% on board for this. I just hope my expectations aren't too high.
 

Ridill

Member
Hopefully it unlocks at midnight tonight, but I have the sneaking suspicion that it will not be up until the PSN Store update tomorrow :^(
 

hawk2025

Member
To be honest all I hear is "the line puzzles get more complex as the game goes along" and no one has been able to show me anything that proves it's really deeper than that.

Ultimately this is a bunch of people who have not played the game yet debating about what it is and isn't. It's not that productive. I will still very likely check out the game. Again, maybe I'll be proven wrong and see that there really is something more there.

I mean, seriously.

Do you honestly believe that a game is averaging a 90 on Metacritic, being the 4th or 5th best rated game of the generation so far, by only being a series of lines you connect?

The fact that you haven't seen it falters when faced with simple common sense.
 
The line puzzles are simply methods of input for understanding or solving any number of arbitrarily complex rules and mechanics. This is like boiling the game of chess down to "well you just move pieces over and over again."

Frankly, your extreme negativity toward something you haven't played is a little ridiculous. Let's give it a shot first, shall we?

I'm going to give it a shot. I really want to like it. I hope I do. I even put it on my "most anticipated" list for 2016.

I'm just really worried based on the reviews and early impressions that I'm going to be disappointed like I have been with other games that tried to tackle the same ideas.

Do you honestly believe that a game is averaging a 90 on Metacritic, being the 4th or 5th best rated game of the generation so far, by only being a series of lines you connect?

I believe the games press is capable of falling for hype and the idea of auteurship and will give games points for "the craft" put into them, even if the game is not all that fun or unique.
 

MattyG

Banned
Hopefully it unlocks at midnight tonight, but I have the sneaking suspicion that it will not be up until the PSN Store update tomorrow :^(
Please, Grace. Midnight. Please. I don't have class tomorrow and I need to play this ASAP.

PLEASE.
 

hawk2025

Member
I'm going to give it a shot. I really want to like it. I hope I do. I even put it on my "most anticipated" list for 2016.

I'm just really worried based on the reviews and early impressions that I'm going to be disappointed like I have been with other games that tried to tackle the same ideas.



I believe the games press is capable of falling for hype and the idea of auteurship and will give games points for "the craft" put into them, even if the game is not all that fun or unique.

But that's clearly not the case if you actually read and hear the *content* of the reviews.

You are being purposefully obtuse, and you know it.

Let's follow your logic, then -- where would the "idea of autership" and "the craft" come from if the game was just an open world with a bunch of panels?

It doesn't pass common sense.
 

Torment

Banned
Might not be a popular opinion, but it seems incredibly boring, what I have witnessed so far which would be the first four hours seems really simple-minded very little challenge. Next, there is nothing besides finishing the puzzles to keep you playing, Blow wanted to make a painting not a real game. I don't know maybe it just isn't my flavor, or maybe my hatred for Blow is blinding me. I just do not get these scores.
 

Dupy

"it is in giving that we receive"
Definitely in for the PS4 version. I'm pretty bad at puzzle games but I loved Braid and the aesthetic looks rad.

While I wait I'm up for a giveaway of the PC version. Good luck!

Hold on...
 
But that's clearly not the case if you actually read and hear the *content* of the reviews.

You are being purposefully obtuse, and you know it.

Let's follow your logic, then -- where would the "idea of autership" and "the craft" come from if the game was just an open world with a bunch of panels?

It doesn't pass common sense.

I'm trying to see past the hype and asking for more out of games than "it took 8 years to make, it must be good."

Yes, I wanted this game to be more than line puzzles (and regardless of how complex they are, they are still line puzzles). No, it doesn't seem like it has any other actual gameplay than that. I was probably hoping for too much.

Yeah, lost me at the no story part. All I've read is that there are quotes to find. Huge pass if that's the case

This really turns me off as well. The idea that all the narrative is just philosophical and religious quotes just strikes me as a lazy attempt to seem "deep".

Again, I have a real problem with games that try to have a point and don't connect the gameplay to the narrative in any meaningful way.
 

hawk2025

Member
I'm trying to see past the hype and asking for more out of games than "it took 8 years to make, it must be good."

Yes, I wanted this game to be more than line puzzles (and regardless of how complex they are, they are still line puzzles). No, it doesn't seem like it has any other actual gameplay than that. I was probably hoping for too much.

Ok, purposefully obtuse it is.

I'm moving on.
 

nynt9

Member
Ok, purposefully obtuse it is.

I'm moving on.

Yeah if someone thinks the game is just rote line puzzles and that's it I don't have much to say. Even watching the GB video there's a clear huge spoiler that Jeff accidentally discovers and it has huge implications.
 
There's likely some cryptic history of the island to uncover, but don't expect cutscenes or even a real plot.

Nah, I wasn't expecting cut scenes, but more of a subtle story interwoven with some kind of mystery. I mean, the witness title sounds mysterious and inviting of a narrative
 

wildfire

Banned
I'm trying to see past the hype and asking for more out of games than "it took 8 years to make, it must be good."

Yes, I wanted this game to be more than line puzzles (and regardless of how complex they are, they are still line puzzles). No, it doesn't seem like it has any other actual gameplay than that. I was probably hoping for too much.



This really turns me off as well. The idea that all the narrative is just philosophical and religious quotes just strikes me as a lazy attempt to seem "deep".

Again, I have a real problem with games that try to have a point and don't connect the gameplay to the narrative in any meaningful way.

Have you played Braid? If so. Would you think it would be unfair to simply say Braid was a game with a rewind mechanic?
 
I'm trying to see past the hype and asking for more out of games than "it took 8 years to make, it must be good."

Yes, I wanted this game to be more than line puzzles (and regardless of how complex they are, they are still line puzzles). No, it doesn't seem like it has any other actual gameplay than that. I was probably hoping for too much.

That's like saying Mario is just jumping puzzles. That'd be like hoping for Mario to be more than just jumping puzzles. You're being excessively and deliberately obtuse and you're not letting yourself enjoy the game for what it is.

Yes, it's about line puzzles, but it's also about what you can infer from the environment and from previous and seemingly unrelated experiences in the game. It's about being surprised and having your mind blown. You're trying to put it in a box and quantify it, but that's exactly what the game is not about.
 
Have you played Braid? If so. Would you think it would be unfair to simply say Braid was a game with a rewind mechanic?

The rewinding time mechanic was at least loosely connected to the narrative and the idea of wanting to turn back time and undo mistakes.

But based on reviews and other stuff, there is no narrative to speak of in The Witness, so nothing to tie the mechanic to in a meaningful way.

Maybe there's something deeper that reviewers chose not to include or haven't uncovered yet. But maybe not.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
From the Polygon review: "The Witness is maze puzzles. Full stop."

This is an enormously selective quote, even from that one review.

The very next words in the review:

That's also a highly reductionist take. It's like saying that a book is "just words." What makes The Witness interesting is not solely the solving of puzzles, it's the way in which the player must discover what I've come to think of as "the puzzle vocabulary." Every puzzle is a maze, but most mazes have multiple paths, and to find the correct one, you must understand what the symbols scattered throughout the mazes mean.
 
Might not be a popular opinion, but it seems incredibly boring, what I have witnessed so far which would be the first four hours seems really simple-minded very little challenge. Next, there is nothing besides finishing the puzzles to keep you playing, Blow wanted to make a painting not a real game. I don't know maybe it just isn't my flavor, or maybe my hatred for Blow is blinding me. I just do not get these scores.
What exactly did Blow do to earn your "hatred"? Simply because he's outspoken?
 
I'm not even saying line puzzles are inherently bad. I just don't care for that type of puzzle solving. It would be like making a game where the only mechanic is Sudoku set on a beautiful island. As much as I might appreciate the environment, I just don't want to solve 600+ Sudoku grids to see it all.
 

Fat4all

Banned
From the Polygon review: "The Witness is maze puzzles. Full stop."

I must of missed the rest of the review, but I remember it saying much more than that. In fact, right after that line it says:

That's also a highly reductionist take. It's like saying that a book is "just words." What makes The Witness interesting is not solely the solving of puzzles, it's the way in which the player must discover what I've come to think of as "the puzzle vocabulary." Every puzzle is a maze, but most mazes have multiple paths, and to find the correct one, you must understand what the symbols scattered throughout the mazes mean.

Edit: ayy lmao, beaten
 
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