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This Friday - Fahrenheit 9/11
- Thread starter Matlock
- Start date
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I'm seeing it this Saturday. Of course it's going to be biased but that's what documentaries are. I don't know how many of you have ever taken a documentary film class but there is always an angle that the director works with. There is always a position. It's the point of the genre: to be passionate about the issues you are documenting. Moore is obviously very passionate and if this many people are up-in-arms about his movies then he's doing a pretty damn fine job as a filmmaker. He's getting people talking.
I know that he sometimes misuses facts and can be selective in his choice of them, but those who have seen Bowling For Columbine and can somehow deny that Moore has a point must have missed the point. It's the message that's important. America has a problem. Can you really deny that there are gun problems in the States? That it's a nation heavily based around mass paranoia and fear? Moore has a point. If you want to analyze every little bit of his films, then go ahead. That's cool and you're a better person for actually thinking and not accepting everything as fact. My point is that Moore's core arguments are pretty damn good.
I know that he sometimes misuses facts and can be selective in his choice of them, but those who have seen Bowling For Columbine and can somehow deny that Moore has a point must have missed the point. It's the message that's important. America has a problem. Can you really deny that there are gun problems in the States? That it's a nation heavily based around mass paranoia and fear? Moore has a point. If you want to analyze every little bit of his films, then go ahead. That's cool and you're a better person for actually thinking and not accepting everything as fact. My point is that Moore's core arguments are pretty damn good.
Just got back, and I agree w/fart; it's tough to organize thoughts to put this movie into words. There's so much research, live camera footage, old stock footage, humor, and passion injected into the film, it's tough to sum it up, especially right after seeing it. All I can say is, I highly recommend you see it, no matter what political alignment you are. If you're an observant watcher, you can spot parts where Moore could have stretched the truth, but the overall point of his film gets driven home: whether you think he's an evil, money-grubbing bastard, a lame-duck who got lucky (9/11), or a hapless moron who got caught up in his own lies, Bush needs to go. Even if it means John Kerry (who isn't mentioned in the film, BTW).
Here's a little story, too, after I saw it:
I left the theatre from the Katy Mills Mall in Katy, TX (right outside Houston) to walk to the store where I work (a Samsonite luggage store) to pick up my paycheck. My coworkers are EXTREMELY conservative, but my head manager seems to be a little more open-minded (or at least pretends to be). I picked up my check, and started talking to her about the movie, and I suggested that she see it: I just generally said it's interesting and thought-provoking, and who would deny that? As soon as I suggested this, the excuses began:
"I never have time to go to the movies anyway."
"I don't want to pay that Mike 'whatever' any of my money." (I suggested she take my ancient movie pass, still good for a few more months--then came more excuses).
"He's (Moore's) only in it for the money."
"You can see everything in that movie on the news on TV." (hahahahahahahahaha, personally, I haven't seen dead Iraqi babies and extensive criticism on the USA Patriot Act on any US news channel)
Finally, she just said she'll see it "when it comes on TV."
I know it's her right not too see it, but at least tell me the truth when you're making excuses about why you won't--I don't agree with everything Moore says either, but I'm open-minded to a different point of view, especially in an election year. It's only fair to allow an unfair (even Moore admitted to being unfair on the Daily Show last night) left-wing point of view to counterract the predomintantly right-wing point of view that we get every day.
Moore's data-collection may often be suspect (from what I've read), but his filmmaking skills are on full display in this movie.
Here's a little story, too, after I saw it:
I left the theatre from the Katy Mills Mall in Katy, TX (right outside Houston) to walk to the store where I work (a Samsonite luggage store) to pick up my paycheck. My coworkers are EXTREMELY conservative, but my head manager seems to be a little more open-minded (or at least pretends to be). I picked up my check, and started talking to her about the movie, and I suggested that she see it: I just generally said it's interesting and thought-provoking, and who would deny that? As soon as I suggested this, the excuses began:
"I never have time to go to the movies anyway."
"I don't want to pay that Mike 'whatever' any of my money." (I suggested she take my ancient movie pass, still good for a few more months--then came more excuses).
"He's (Moore's) only in it for the money."
"You can see everything in that movie on the news on TV." (hahahahahahahahaha, personally, I haven't seen dead Iraqi babies and extensive criticism on the USA Patriot Act on any US news channel)
Finally, she just said she'll see it "when it comes on TV."
I know it's her right not too see it, but at least tell me the truth when you're making excuses about why you won't--I don't agree with everything Moore says either, but I'm open-minded to a different point of view, especially in an election year. It's only fair to allow an unfair (even Moore admitted to being unfair on the Daily Show last night) left-wing point of view to counterract the predomintantly right-wing point of view that we get every day.
Moore's data-collection may often be suspect (from what I've read), but his filmmaking skills are on full display in this movie.
MaddenNFL64
Member
I'll just wait for the DVD. I do want to see this though 
.
.Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Hitokage said:
Agreed checks and balances doesn't mean you on one side act like an idiot and you on the other side act like and idiot to balance this first idiot out. That leaves you with two idiots.
you know the funniest thing about this whole moore controversy with the accusations and name calling and fat jokes is that michael moore is probably the only one of the players that is not looking for money and/or power. michael moore is one of the few, the proud, who just cares about people. it seems like such an uncanny impulse in this day and age of emotional manipulation.
Saw this movie myself a few hours ago.
It'll take some time for me to digest what I saw.
Some guy got REALLY pissed after watching it and was yelling and ranting outside the theater entrance saying it was "just a movie", and that it was all bullshit.
I'll bet he's not the only one doing that today.
It'll take some time for me to digest what I saw.
Some guy got REALLY pissed after watching it and was yelling and ranting outside the theater entrance saying it was "just a movie", and that it was all bullshit.
I'll bet he's not the only one doing that today.
Demigod Mac
Member
Demigod Mac says everyone needs to see this film for the Iraq war footage. It's brutal and telling of how things are really going.
The best thing is, Moore largely shuts up for the Iraq segment and lets the footage speak for itself.
So it's quite hard to accuse him of being manipulative.
The best thing is, Moore largely shuts up for the Iraq segment and lets the footage speak for itself.
So it's quite hard to accuse him of being manipulative.
I agree.. we might have a little more insight with CBC news, but they're not showing us everything that's for sure.explodet said:Two more things:
I enjoyed the movie, but I still feel the title is dumb.
Moore still likes Canada:
I think he's giving us (Canucks) a little too much credit
Excellent movie. I went in expecting to like it and left liking it more than I expected. One thing I never understand when people call Moore's statements lies... why hasn't anyone sued him for libel? I always found that curious. The NRA could've sued him for libel if they didn't have a rally right after Columbine. Anyone in any of his movies could've sued him for libel. Nobody has. Weird.
After weeks of debate and media coverage, "Fahrenheit 9/11" opened today far better than expected.
An estimate of just how well it could do is difficult to make, but as of 3 p.m. on the West CoastCoast, it looks as if Michael MooreMichael Moore's docdoc could sell between $6 million and $8 million worth of tickets on its first day.
Playing at 868 theaters, the pic would have an amazing one-day theater average of $6,912 at the low end of that range.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117907062?categoryId=13&cs=1
An estimate of just how well it could do is difficult to make, but as of 3 p.m. on the West CoastCoast, it looks as if Michael MooreMichael Moore's docdoc could sell between $6 million and $8 million worth of tickets on its first day.
Playing at 868 theaters, the pic would have an amazing one-day theater average of $6,912 at the low end of that range.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117907062?categoryId=13&cs=1
Just got back from seeing it at a sold out show and was quite impressed. It reminded me strongly of Hearts and Minds, a highly critical documentary about Vietnam just before the end of the war.
Hearts and Minds is critical viewing; fortunatly, an excellent Criterion Collection edition is readily available on DVD.
I was unsuprised to note several fact checkers referenced in the credits. Moore's facts look to be rock solid this time around. Folks may disagree with his arguments, but his source material is damning. Therefore, look for ignorant "it's not a documentary because it's biased" arguments this time around, instead of the last batch of ignorant "it's not a documentary because it's not 100% accurate" arguments.
And, if you hate Moore, love Bush, and wonder what all the fuss is about, it's well worth your time to watch the film and judge for yourself. Skeptical? Fantastic! As long as Moore's film provokes discussion, it will have achieved it's goal.
FnordChan
When Moore started pulling out footage of amputee vets and the President making light jokes to the ultra-rich about being ultra-rich, I started having flashbacks to strikingly similar scenes from Hearts and Minds. This is by no means a bad thing for Moore's film - though it's somewhat depressing to see the same old shit happening over and over again.
I was unsuprised to note several fact checkers referenced in the credits. Moore's facts look to be rock solid this time around. Folks may disagree with his arguments, but his source material is damning. Therefore, look for ignorant "it's not a documentary because it's biased" arguments this time around, instead of the last batch of ignorant "it's not a documentary because it's not 100% accurate" arguments.
And, if you hate Moore, love Bush, and wonder what all the fuss is about, it's well worth your time to watch the film and judge for yourself. Skeptical? Fantastic! As long as Moore's film provokes discussion, it will have achieved it's goal.
FnordChan
Just saw it earlier tonight. I actually ended up liking it more than I thought I would. Going in, I assumed there would be a lot of groan-inducing spots due to his truth stretching but there were really very few. The fact that the only real complaint I've heard about so far stems from when exactly the Bin Ladens were flown out is a testament of this.
The worst part by far was the audience. I swear, between the various anti-Bush t-shirts and the random clapping, I just about tore my heart out. What's funny is how the people wearing the t-shirts looked strikingly similar to the douchebags who bring light sabers to Star Wars screenings. Also, can someone please explain to me the sense in applause during a movie? Unless you're trying to show appreciation to the projectionist, the whole practice seems fucking pointless.
The worst part by far was the audience. I swear, between the various anti-Bush t-shirts and the random clapping, I just about tore my heart out. What's funny is how the people wearing the t-shirts looked strikingly similar to the douchebags who bring light sabers to Star Wars screenings. Also, can someone please explain to me the sense in applause during a movie? Unless you're trying to show appreciation to the projectionist, the whole practice seems fucking pointless.
ErasureAcer
Banned
I had to work tonight and I work sat-tues night as well...I might try and see if before work tomorrow but I may be cutting things close. Sucks not having a car or I would have seen the midnight showing...and my good buddy is out of town...so yeah...I might not see it for a few. No matter what though...I'm still not voting for Kerry. He is the problem as well.
I guess we find out in a day or two who the greens pick as their candidate...Nader or Cobb...and that's who I'm supporting.
Even with all this outcry against the war in Iraq now...Kerry still has the same plan as George W. Bush. Unbelievable. If Kerry gets elected I should make a movie on what an ass he is...
Kooch 08.
I guess we find out in a day or two who the greens pick as their candidate...Nader or Cobb...and that's who I'm supporting.
Even with all this outcry against the war in Iraq now...Kerry still has the same plan as George W. Bush. Unbelievable. If Kerry gets elected I should make a movie on what an ass he is...
Kooch 08.
ManaByte
Member
Minotauro said:
At least they weren't LAUGHING THEIR ASSES OFF AT DEAD GI's like in the audience I was in. I swear, if I had a gun and enough ammo half the theater would've been dead. If the movie was showing down near Miramar, I wouldn't have had to do any shooting myself.
It also pissed me off how Moore tried to show US soldiers as blood thirsty baby killers. I know someone who was just called to active duty, and in a military town like San Diego a scene like that does NOT go over well. There were a couple people who shouted out "Fuck you Moore" during that scene, and since there were a few Marines in the audience it's not hard to figure out who it was.
My most eye-rolling moment in the movie was when Moore tried to point out how Bush 1.0 still gets daily CIA briefings as some evil Nazi-like conspiracy. Not only does every former President have that option, but H.W. Bush was also the FUCKING HEAD OF THE FUCKING CIA (and thus a member of MJ-12) before he was President. Moore does mention that in the movie, but it still annoyed me as he was so retarded to try to pass it off as a bad thing. As former head of the CIA (and the stuff that comes along with that), Bush 1.0 obviously has secrets he will take with him to the grave and only an idiot like Moore will try to turn it into an evil thing when he wants to keep tabs on things.
mjq jazz bar
Banned
One of the reasons I sort of want to put off seeing the movie is so I can avoid all of the needless applause and all the uninformed dickheads who'd just as much appreciate an Internet cartoon called Bush Sux Dix Cuz He Can't Speak .
sorry about the audience you were in, but socal does tend to do that to people. of course, your violent fantasies are worrying as well, but once again, socal does tend to do that to people.
anyways, i'm curious as to why you think the film put bush sr.'s daily briefings in a specifically negative light. it was presented as a fact among many, and it's a fact that most people do not know. i'd also ask what secrets you think bush sr is planning on taking to his grave, as most people quite frankly don't do that sort of thing.
anyways, i'm curious as to why you think the film put bush sr.'s daily briefings in a specifically negative light. it was presented as a fact among many, and it's a fact that most people do not know. i'd also ask what secrets you think bush sr is planning on taking to his grave, as most people quite frankly don't do that sort of thing.
ManaByte
Member
fart said:
As former head of the CIA Bush 1.0 knows the truth behind just about every major 20th century conspiracy theory you can think of. Roswell, JFK, etc.
Hell, for JFK alone the general public won't see the sealed records and the 100% unedited video from that day until something like 2029 when everyone involved is long dead and gone.
I saw it tonight, and I'm telling you, the theater was packed. I had to sit in the front freakin' row because my stupid friend was running late.
Overall, very well done; very sedated for a Moore movie, and the facts he presents are all off of the public record, there isn't terribly much to dispute. I was discussing it afterwards, and about the only thing that you can say Moore ignored was tantamount to hair splitting, like
The film is unabashedly biased, Moore has gone out of his way to make sure people realize that Fahrenheit 9/11 is designed to paint the administration in a bad light. More to the point, when asked how he'd describe it, he immediately said "op/ed piece," which is very appropriate.
There was the requisite cheering at the end, too. If this movie takes one popular vote out of the Bush column, Moore did his job.
Overall, very well done; very sedated for a Moore movie, and the facts he presents are all off of the public record, there isn't terribly much to dispute. I was discussing it afterwards, and about the only thing that you can say Moore ignored was tantamount to hair splitting, like
Ashcroft didn't technically lose to a dead guy, he lost to the widow.
The film is unabashedly biased, Moore has gone out of his way to make sure people realize that Fahrenheit 9/11 is designed to paint the administration in a bad light. More to the point, when asked how he'd describe it, he immediately said "op/ed piece," which is very appropriate.
There was the requisite cheering at the end, too. If this movie takes one popular vote out of the Bush column, Moore did his job.
Its a shame I won't be able to go see it. I'm at home for the summer and my parents are both republicans. Mom's a little more open-minded about it, of course, but I don't know if I could convince her to actually see it. My dad, well....he couldn't even bear to watch Moore on the Daily Show this evening. He pretty much demanded my mom change the channel.
On top of that, I have no transportation of my own right now, so I may have to seek out *alternate means* if I want to get a peek anytime before a DVD release.
On top of that, I have no transportation of my own right now, so I may have to seek out *alternate means* if I want to get a peek anytime before a DVD release.
Just saw it tonight, and thought it was a great doc.
My brother and I discussed the merits of the movie and came to the conclusion that nearly none of the clips seems out of context.
As a Canadian, it would easy to shrug Bush as an American problem, but his and his cronies cause world problems and instability. When I was discussing the invasion of Iraq, I kept refering to it as something "we" should not have done. I have never support the war on Iraq, but as a "westerner" it has become an issue that will have repercutions for years to come and will likely affect me as a Canadian.
My brother and I discussed the merits of the movie and came to the conclusion that nearly none of the clips seems out of context.
As a Canadian, it would easy to shrug Bush as an American problem, but his and his cronies cause world problems and instability. When I was discussing the invasion of Iraq, I kept refering to it as something "we" should not have done. I have never support the war on Iraq, but as a "westerner" it has become an issue that will have repercutions for years to come and will likely affect me as a Canadian.
Patrick Klepek
furiously molesting tim burton
belfast - uh, don't you have any friends?
btw, i loved the documentary. my friends and i were wished there was a riot we could join when the credits started rolling.
btw, i loved the documentary. my friends and i were wished there was a riot we could join when the credits started rolling.
I'm just now getting home at 8:30 AM after seeing the movie at 10 last night... the film inspired such a new low in my faith for humanity that the only acceptable answer was a night of drinking such that my liver shan't soon forgive me, if ever.
None of the information presented to me was "new" necessarily, but I came out of the film feeling rattled and disturbed. For me, it was almost a sense of helplessness, like no matter what I did, nothing meaningful would change. It made me want to react in a neandrethal, brutish manner; I felt that I should break something. That urge soon gave way to the sheer need to dull the memory of the movie with mass quantities of alcohol.
Be warned: there are some graphic, disturbing images in this film. The horrid, brutal realities of war are brought home to roost, and for me they did not sit happily. I think what really made me angriest was that no matter the result of the election in November, we will not be leaving Iraq anytime soon. Kerry will not unilaterally pull out, and at this point I don't think we SHOULD pull out. I feel that we've made a mess of the situation, and that we are obligated to do all we can to fix it. Do I think Kerry is up to the task? No. I left the movie with far more questions about what the hell we as a nation are doing than I did going in, and like I said I feel that the facts weren't necessarily NEW, but the combination of the facts and seeing the loss of life and hearing accounts of the war from the frontline did nothing to make this a simpler issue for me. I don't think that we'll ever be the same as a nation again. If Vietnam was our loss of innocence, Iraq might be our last chance for redemption and I feel that we're pissing it away in a horrid, frightening manner. I can only hope that things will change for the better, but like I said I didn't leave the theatre with a sense of optimism for the future.
None of the information presented to me was "new" necessarily, but I came out of the film feeling rattled and disturbed. For me, it was almost a sense of helplessness, like no matter what I did, nothing meaningful would change. It made me want to react in a neandrethal, brutish manner; I felt that I should break something. That urge soon gave way to the sheer need to dull the memory of the movie with mass quantities of alcohol.
Be warned: there are some graphic, disturbing images in this film. The horrid, brutal realities of war are brought home to roost, and for me they did not sit happily. I think what really made me angriest was that no matter the result of the election in November, we will not be leaving Iraq anytime soon. Kerry will not unilaterally pull out, and at this point I don't think we SHOULD pull out. I feel that we've made a mess of the situation, and that we are obligated to do all we can to fix it. Do I think Kerry is up to the task? No. I left the movie with far more questions about what the hell we as a nation are doing than I did going in, and like I said I feel that the facts weren't necessarily NEW, but the combination of the facts and seeing the loss of life and hearing accounts of the war from the frontline did nothing to make this a simpler issue for me. I don't think that we'll ever be the same as a nation again. If Vietnam was our loss of innocence, Iraq might be our last chance for redemption and I feel that we're pissing it away in a horrid, frightening manner. I can only hope that things will change for the better, but like I said I didn't leave the theatre with a sense of optimism for the future.
I saw the film last night. It's definitely worth seeing.
The second half is far more successful than the first half. Though I mostly agree with the political stance of the first half, I didn't like the way it was presented--with trick editing, cheap shots (like montages of Bush saying "nucular"), and shamelessly manipulative music. Moreover, he blurs the line between reporting the facts and making unsubstantiated conjectures, using comedy to cover over what he's doing. Red meat to the left, but it won't change any minds. (And the framing of the troops in Iraq as callous and bloodthirsty worked against his message.)
On the other hand, the second half of the film is genius (and that's when he dispenses with all the jokey stylistic devices that mar the first half, and just lets events speak for themselves). During the sections with Lila Lipscomb there wasn't a dry eye in the house, and when
The second half of the movie is worth the ticket price.
The second half is far more successful than the first half. Though I mostly agree with the political stance of the first half, I didn't like the way it was presented--with trick editing, cheap shots (like montages of Bush saying "nucular"), and shamelessly manipulative music. Moreover, he blurs the line between reporting the facts and making unsubstantiated conjectures, using comedy to cover over what he's doing. Red meat to the left, but it won't change any minds. (And the framing of the troops in Iraq as callous and bloodthirsty worked against his message.)
On the other hand, the second half of the film is genius (and that's when he dispenses with all the jokey stylistic devices that mar the first half, and just lets events speak for themselves). During the sections with Lila Lipscomb there wasn't a dry eye in the house, and when
the young wounded soldier in Walter Reed (?) said he'd start working for the Democratic Party in the upcoming election, the entire audience broke into applause. But I live in a lefty town where the Republicans don't even bother to run candidates for some local elections, so that's no surprise.
This just in, Fahrenheit 9/11 has beat out White Chicks for #1 on Friday, earning an estimated $8.2 million in ticket sales!
That has to be some sort of record for a movie on only 868 screens!
http://boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-06-25&p=.htm
That has to be some sort of record for a movie on only 868 screens!
http://boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-06-25&p=.htm
I saw it and the thing that really stuck out to me was that the movie SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WIDESCREEN. I mean half the movie was clips from TV and TV is fullscreen so when they blow it up to widescreen and 35mm everything gets smushed together and blown up and it looked ugly. Hopefully for home release they'll do a fullscreen version.
Secondly, the bad things. He did take a lot of cheap shots at George Bush and the Republicans which unless you're a real anti-Bush guy are kind of a turn off. I mean if you had a camera on you 24 hours a day I'm sure you'd do a ton of goofy things that would get caught on camera. The editing in the Iraq segments was kind of shady. The movie seems to imply that Iraq wasn't run by a brutal dictator who oppressed his own people. Another scene that stuck out was the one where they raided the house and the editors of the movie made selective use of subtitles. You don't get to see subtitles of what they're saying until the people say something like "Why are you here? What are you doing? He's innocent!" but you don't get to see the subtitles of the army people who are probably saying something like "We're looking for terrorists."
But overall I thought it was entertaining and effective propaganda. The movie also seemed to work as a case study on how "money makes the world go round" and "it's not what you know, but who you know." And if you take a step back and look at the movie from the perspective of someone who never heard of the US, you get a rather scary picture of a militaristic society attempting to create an empire in order to keep the elites of the country in power.
But the main flaw in the film is that it basically comes to the conclusion that George Bush is an incompetant, corrupt and immoral man only looking out for himself and his friends as he is also simultaneously the leader of the free world. I doubt that's true and that's the propagandistic nature of the film, but it is still a very effective film that at least brings all this to the table.
Secondly, the bad things. He did take a lot of cheap shots at George Bush and the Republicans which unless you're a real anti-Bush guy are kind of a turn off. I mean if you had a camera on you 24 hours a day I'm sure you'd do a ton of goofy things that would get caught on camera. The editing in the Iraq segments was kind of shady. The movie seems to imply that Iraq wasn't run by a brutal dictator who oppressed his own people. Another scene that stuck out was the one where they raided the house and the editors of the movie made selective use of subtitles. You don't get to see subtitles of what they're saying until the people say something like "Why are you here? What are you doing? He's innocent!" but you don't get to see the subtitles of the army people who are probably saying something like "We're looking for terrorists."
But overall I thought it was entertaining and effective propaganda. The movie also seemed to work as a case study on how "money makes the world go round" and "it's not what you know, but who you know." And if you take a step back and look at the movie from the perspective of someone who never heard of the US, you get a rather scary picture of a militaristic society attempting to create an empire in order to keep the elites of the country in power.
But the main flaw in the film is that it basically comes to the conclusion that George Bush is an incompetant, corrupt and immoral man only looking out for himself and his friends as he is also simultaneously the leader of the free world. I doubt that's true and that's the propagandistic nature of the film, but it is still a very effective film that at least brings all this to the table.
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