This Friday - Fahrenheit 9/11

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Just saw this movie and I gotta say, Michael Moore is a genius, love him or hate him.

While the way he presents them may be a little "unfair" - anyone that actually says Moore is full of it is... full of it. The Bush administration and people in that administration that have been active in both foreign and domestic political/war affairs for other presidents are a disgrace to this country. They're greedy, dishonest, manipulative, unreliable individuals. If you can't understand this you are a. stupid or b. brainwashed by the right-wing assholes that are dominating damn near every aspect of this country.
 
Because I'm lazy and this is probably the proper thread for what I posted earlier, here it is again:

myself said:
Saw the film today, and since I don't have much time I'll just throw these tidbits in:

Moore does not at any point in the entire movie portray America as bad, but rather, the people in power who he presents as taking everyone for fools. American soldiers are portrayed as victims of a system, not instigators of injustice.

The sequence of scenes with the soldier's mother smacks of emotional manipulation.

There wasn't any ambiguity what was going on or what was being said in the house raid scene. The soldiers didn't have subtitles, but they were speaking english.

While Moore doesn't offer up conspiracy theories concerning the Saudi, he flirts with their possibility... maybe with the assumption that the audience will go the rest of the way, I dunno. I would have appreciated it if he stuck with the more concrete and provable theory that the pre-existing Bush/Saudi relationship had an adversarial effect on Bush's judgement, because that's what where the substantive evidence presented pointed. (In other words, the argument needed tightening)

Relying on old women who may or may not be well read on the subject to offer your point isn't the best way to go about things.

The blank screen scene after the opening credits made me lose it. Cried.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: C+, I really didn't like how Moore felt the need to embellish material that didn't need any. This movie should have been made by somebody else, but as somebody else on the internet has suggested, maybe he's just playing the same game Limbaugh has been the master of for so many years... rather than offering up a concrete and compelling indictment... which is what I would have liked.
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Did anybody catch the part at the end where Condoleezza Rice said that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq? The crowd I was with was laughing at something, and I couldn't quite make out the beginning of what she said.

Did she say that?
 
Willco said:
What's more fictional, Spider-Man 2 or Farenheit 9/11? Argument get!
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Definitely F911. All the footage it contained.......fictional.
 
fart said:
dude i heard sam raimi sacrificed a goat on the spiderman 2 set. TRUE STORY
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This is true. To appease the comic book Gods, he sacrificed a goat and let a tree rape an intern. Fun stuff.
 
Tried to watch it tonight at a theater near me, but it was sold out. First time I've seen anything sold out at that theater. I wonder how well it's doing here in Canada?
 
VPhys said:
That made me think about the source of terrorism. It's not suprising that that type of mother could support a son or daughter who wanted to threaten America.
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Sort of the mentality most Americans who believe the "damn Arabs" responsible for 9/11 need to be nuked to Hell.
 
Well shit. I posted my "review" in the other thread on accident. It has to stay there though because it "references" Hito, fart, and mjq and their comments in that thread.

oh whatevr hito did it, Ill do it. double postage!
scola said:
Saw it tonight. Enjoyed it. Am to lazy to write up impressions, though I feel similarly about the film in certain respects as fart, mjq jazz, and hitokage (not to imply that they all felt the same about it, I just identified with certain things that each of them said).

Met some nice people waiting in line, genuinely upset with bush, solidly liberal (no surprise) but what did surprise me was the pure diversity of the crowd. I expecteed younger people/college students etc, But seriously there where people there in age ranging from teens to (I'd guess) 80's. Very stratified across all ages which was interesting. (I talked with one grandmother about her visits to Italy and the Vatican the day before bush visited 2 weeks ago)

The there was a funny piece of "vandall/art" immediately outside of the theater. Some one had appropriated a pink basken robins sign, painted over certain words and appropriated other words, then replicated the font and put up the "a dictatorship would be a whole lot easier" quote as seen in the film. Not the highest quality billboard screw job I have seen ("Gap's" everybody in swastikas topped it) but still funny because my GF and I looked at several times before we noticed, and the actual B&R Billboard has the words "Subliminal Message #9" at the top. lol
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Bah, hit google with several several queries last night and didn't find anything. I really want to know the source and full context of that Condi Rice clip.
 
Hitokage said:
Bah, hit google with several several queries last night and didn't find anything. I really want to know the source and full context of that Condi Rice clip.
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The one where she reveals the title of the memo? You pretty much saw all the context you needed. The commission was asking her about specific threats, she was adament that they had no solid information; how all of the intelligence was just a collection of vague reports.

Then she was asked to reveal the title of one particular briefing, which was "bin Laden Determined To Strike Inside The United States." (or something damned close to that.)

The look on her face is quite choice.
 
Nonono, the one where she says flat out "there is a link between Iraq and 9/11". What makes that quote so potentially important is that the adminstration and their hangers-on(*ahem*) have been swearing up and down that this has never been claimed.
 
First thought on the film ending was, "dude, where did the $6m go?" A couple of days in Flint, then in Washington...and um... that's the only primary source material that seems to be in the whole film. Maybe the military hospital was filmed for the movie rather than library footage I didn't take enough notice and he may have spent some dollars to get the material from Iraq but really there is nothing of note to this film. I'd seen 80% of the pre-Iraq footage before and I'd have probably seen most of the second half with access to al-Jazerra.

The first ten minutes were a waste and his thoughts better summed up by his Oscar speech on the 2000 election. He just comes over as a whiner, thought he was against the democrats in 2000 anyhow? Very similar is the way he goes on about the goings on in the eighties, he's still very bitter about the success of the west in defeating communism. To disregard the realpolitik that was instrumental in the world not being blown up eight times over, if the USSR and US decided to press the red button, is the usual crap from the left.

Bush came over as a good guy, if Moore can only stick a couple of bumblings on him and nowt new it just goes to show the liberal media have dried up the well on that character assassination attempt. The 42% of time on holiday... if you take away weekends it goes down to 13%, that still excludes "working holidays", it'd be nice to see a comparison with previous presidents. Moore would never do such a thing of course.

Enjoyed the concentration on attacking Saudi Arabia, pity it was just a rehash of his last book and there is no smoking gun, like a rich Texan oil family and a rich Saudi oil family have connections, well, duh.

The brief mention of the Afghanistan operation was the most ridiculous and fictional part of the movie. Second most stupid was the ridiculing of the "coalition of the willing", no mention of the second, fourth and sixth biggest economies in the world supporting Bush just banana republics and Romania (whose residents would surely be offended by the comparison). Moroccan monkeys was one of five times I laughed in the couple of hours.

The faux patriotism was embarrassing on Moore's part, he was paying lip-service to that poor woman who lost her son when she talked about her love for the country. The dogmatic, binary, orthodox marxism rang utterly hollow in his attempts to paint a picture of "them" and "us".

Statistically there should be 2 or 2.5 congressmen with children in Iraq? Moore's end tenet saying only 1 is in Iraq, failing to mention others who are in other theatres was a very weak end to a mediocre piece of insidious polemic propaganda.
 
cja said:
Enjoyed the concentration on attacking Saudi Arabia, pity it was just a rehash of his last book and there is no smoking gun, like a rich Texan oil family and a rich Saudi oil family have connections, well, duh.
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It's disturbing that you apply this incredibly oversimplified, glib summation to something so shockingly scandalous.
 
Bush came over as a good guy, if Moore can only stick a couple of bumblings on him
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Did you even WATCH the fuckin movie? The entire Bush administration came off as nothing short of evil in this movie.

Second most stupid was the ridiculing of the "coalition of the willing", no mention of the second, fourth and sixth biggest economies in the world supporting Bush just banana republics and Romania (whose residents would surely be offended by the comparison).
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Agreed.....he was quite selective in which countries he mentioned.
 
Bush came over as a good guy, if Moore can only stick a couple of bumblings on him and nowt new it just goes to show the liberal media have dried up the well on that character assassination attempt.
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Including the highly liberal Paul O'Neil, of course.

The brief mention of the Afghanistan operation was the most ridiculous and fictional part of the movie.
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Considering we failed to capture Bin Laden and Afghanistan itself is now once again ruled by warlords... it's more than safe to say we fucked up there. I have misgivings with his presentation and the mention of the oil pipeline, but to say that we did exactly what we were supposed to do is false.
 
www.defamer.com

Not everyone is a "Hollywood Liberal" with a hard-on for forking over their money to Michael Moore. So for the more rightward leaning in our midst, here's how we see the weekend playing out, with an eye on where to spend your conservative box-office dollar.

1. White Chicks
Better to support wisecracking black guys toying with traditionally accepted racial and gender norms than know the "truth" behind the Bush family's connections to the Saudi government.

2. Fahrenheit 9/11
Just ignore it and maybe it will all go away, like Reagan's Alzheimer's. There are enough bed-wetting liberals out there to push F 9/11 to number two, but not enough to threaten the movie-going status quo. Direct your energy into locking evil-eyes on the left-wing pansies in the snack bar line, loading up on butter-free popcorn and bottled water.

3. DodgeBall: A True Underdog Story
Bible-belt moviegoers can rejoice as Ben Stiller, a Jew, is defeated in this Christian redemption parable.

4. Harry Potter and the Prisoner Of Azkaban
Grudgingly funnel your hard-earned CEO dollars to this paean to paganism instead of supporting Moore's crazy love-letter to tinfoil-hatted conspiracy theorists.

5. The Terminal
Even in fifth place, Tom Hanks is a uniter, not a divider. His cute turn as an alien trapped in INS limbo is an explicit endorsement of the kind of tough immigration laws this country needs to keep it strong.
 
I just saw the movie last night. It was an OK movie entertainment wise and had some real slow points. Moore is kind an idiot though in that he pushes his message too far where if he just left out the 5% that is edited and untrue it could be taken more seriously. The part at the beginning with all the Black Congressman was pretty sad to watch and seeing the dead Iraqis and US Soldiers was not something I really wanted to see. It also shows just how much they censor the news during a time of war, I never saw anything remotely like the stuff Moore showed about the war on any news channel. It helps you see the level of destruction and death our Army is really capable of, whenever I see footage on t.v. it is always some isolated building in the desert with some grainy footage. I actually felt really bad for both the Iraqis and the US soldiers for being placed in such a shitty situation. And I hope that lady who questioned the mother of the dead soldier dies a horrible death.

p.s. WTF was up with Ashcroft singing that song?
 
bionic77 said:
I just saw the movie last night. It was an OK movie entertainment wise and had some real slow points. Moore is kind an idiot though in that he pushes his message too far where if he just left out the 5% that is edited and untrue it could be taken more seriously. The part at the beginning with all the Black Congressman was pretty sad to watch and seeing the dead Iraqis and US Soldiers was not something I really wanted to see. It also shows just how much they censor the news during a time of war, I never saw anything remotely like the stuff Moore showed about the war on any news channel. It helps you see the level of destruction and death our Army is really capable of, whenever I see footage on t.v. it is always some isolated building in the desert with some grainy footage. I actually felt really bad for both the Iraqis and the US soldiers for being placed in such a shitty situation. And I hope that lady who questioned the mother of the dead soldier dies a horrible death.

p.s. WTF was up with Ashcroft singing that song?
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I somewhat agree. Some scenes would have been much more powerful had he shutup a bit and let them speak for themselves, rather than making it obvious what he was trying to shove down your throat. I would have a better effect otherwise.

None of that changes the fact that the entire Bush administration should be promptly kicked out of office and tried.
 
human5892 said:
It's disturbing that you apply this incredibly oversimplified, glib summation to something so shockingly scandalous.
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It's only shockingly scandalous if you take what Moore says at face value. The whole half-baked Carlisle Group stuff was laughable considering one of Bush's opponents is George Soros who is a large investor in the company.

Bizarro Sun Yat-sen said:
er... #2 and #4 are China and India.
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You're using the PPP method while I was using CER.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_Domestic_Product

#2, #4, #6 are Japan, UK, Italy via CER, this isn't really the thread to argue the merits of the two methods so I will not.

demon said:
The entire Bush administration came off as nothing short of evil in this movie.
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As above, only if you take what was said at face value, I was skeptical going in knowing what to expect from Moore. I tried not to be pre-judgemental but also looking for flaws that were sometimes easy to see if you were looking, e.g. statistically the amount of congressmen with sons or daughters in Iraq was about right, the blanking out of names was obviously an individual privacy issue but made out to be a sinister conspiracy, that when you had a zoom in of Bush near the end saying we know he's used them before... well Saddam had used chemical weapons before and this was meant to be some knockout blow by Moore's, didn't work.

It was only after watching the film and doing the briefest of research to show up holes that discredits the whole movie. The guy who looked at Moore as if he was crazy when asked to sign up his kids in the armed forces looked that way because he has no kids, that the comments from Rice were taken ridiculously out of context as was most of the footage, Blair was edited out of screen when Bush was "on holiday", etcetra ad infinitum.

hitokage said:
Considering we failed to capture Bin Laden and Afghanistan itself is now once again ruled by warlords...
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According to Moore its run by Bush's good buddy Harmid Khazi. :P Yeah, parts are being loosely run by warlords but they're still technically under the thumb of those in Kabul.

The military had to get rid of the Taliban before they could concentrate on bin-Laden, to go after bin-Laden when the Taliban were still in control of the country would have been ridiculously foolhardy and surely cost many more lives. Moore seems to be saying they let bin Laden have a two month start on purpose when most liberal commentators were saying the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan could be another Vietnam, surprise, and Moore himself was wanting proof of bin Laden's involvement and was against the whole campaign.
 
MIMIC said:
Did anybody catch the part at the end where Condoleezza Rice said that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq? The crowd I was with was laughing at something, and I couldn't quite make out the beginning of what she said.

Did she say that?
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Is this the quote you're looking for...

Rice, Sept. 25, 2002: "There clearly are contacts between al-Qaida and Iraq that can be documented; there clearly is testimony that some of the contacts have been important contacts and that there's a relationship here. ... And there are some al-Qaida personnel who found refuge in Baghdad."

But I think this quote from Dick is far worse...

On Dec. 9, 2001, Cheney said on "Meet The Press" that "it's been pretty well confirmed that he [Atta] did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack."

But that same month, Czech President Vaclav Havel was retreating from the more definitive accounts provided by his government, saying there was "a 70 percent" chance the meeting took place. Indeed, while Czech officials never officially backed away from their initial stance, officials at various agencies say that, privately, the Czechs have discredited the accuracy of the untested informant who came to them with the information. According to one report, Havel quietly informed the White House in 2002 there was no evidence to confirm the meeting.

Link
 
People, do yourselves a favor and watch Uncovered:The whole truth about the Iraq War.

Try to discredit what that documentary provides. It foregoes humour and satire, and focuses solely on the facts about the 'evidence'- making it that much more sombering and horrific. There's not much you can say after watching it.


http://www.truthuncovered.com/
 
Does anyone have a quote of Bush fucking up that saying at the end of the film?

"You know, I have a favorite saying, and it goes..."

and then he just royally screwed it up.
 
The 42 percent about vacation is a flat out distortion. He spent that amount of time away from the Whitehouse, not necessarily just relaxing in a lawn chair. During these "vacations" he met with President Putin, Prime Minister Blair, and his cabinet on a frequent basis and was kept up with the current issues of the country constantly.
 
Still doesn't change the fact that he's been away from the White House. What's in Texas that's not in D.C? What's in Kennebunkport that's not in D.C.? I'll tell you what, the majority of our government. He's not a senator that needs to go back to his home state every now and again just to check in with the home base. WTF does he need to leave D.C. so much? Yeah, he can stay in touch but so can your Dad. Your parents can phone home every now and again but it hurts a lil when they leave you. I miss my Bush.
 
Wolfy said:
The 42 percent about vacation is a flat out distortion. He spent that amount of time away from the Whitehouse, not necessarily just relaxing in a lawn chair. During these "vacations" he met with President Putin, Prime Minister Blair, and his cabinet on a frequent basis and was kept up with the current issues of the country constantly.
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Did you see the clip of him on one of his "working vacations" in F9/11? It's like he was TRYING to lie that badly about how he was still getting stuff done, despite not being in Washington.
 
Yea, he started mumbling something about working on some issues and what not, and then basically walked away.

I just don't think he's that intelligent of a guy. That's one of the main reasons I'm voting against him.
 
"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
 
saw the movie yesterday (it's just out in Paris) and i trully liked it

seems like a true success in Europe too, the theaters are full and it's almost hard to get a ticket to see it
 
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