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Time: George R. R. Martin interview, I am going to finish these books!
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
The entire Harry Potter prequel film pentology Will finish before GoT books
No; a Feast For Crows and a Dance of Dragons are sort of garbage. The first three are good though, but that's largely because Martin had a very good idea of how they would go when he first started.
The Sum of Zero
Member
I honestly don't really doubt George still.
Sure, I mean, I'm a bit worried.
But people are acting like this is The Wait To End All Waits where it is probably going to have only ended up taking a year or two longer than ADWD.
We're gonna get TWOW at least. And we'll probably get ADOS. Even if it takes 10 years for ADOS, I think George can make it to 80.
Sure, I mean, I'm a bit worried.
But people are acting like this is The Wait To End All Waits where it is probably going to have only ended up taking a year or two longer than ADWD.
We're gonna get TWOW at least. And we'll probably get ADOS. Even if it takes 10 years for ADOS, I think George can make it to 80.
IggyChooChoo
Member
I thought they were a lot better when read together in a combined chronological order. The themes were a lot clearer, and you got more of a variety of viewpoints. It really improved both.
Bounceounce
Member
Love all of these people trying to tell George that he doesn't care about his own series just because he's struggling with it.
I'm taking them both over GoT and loved Feast, not sure what's "garbage" about them.
Right whichever books you like the best there's at least 3/5 of them that are better than equivalent novels because of him not in spite
Personally I thought both books suffered from a whole lot happens but nothing felt like it was advancing all that much. It felt like he was spinning his wheels over 2300 pages.
His Majesty
Banned
ok
Dash_Riprock
Member
Feast For Crows was a slump compared to the first three but there was still a lot to like about it.
Dance With Dragons, that shit is indefensible...
Bounceounce
Member
For all intents and purposes the series will conclude when George finishes it, because it's his damn series and the people who are salty over the wait time can't keep trying to shift reality into the conclusion/story being the adaptation.
Not really, there's plenty of difference, you couldn't just read up until the last book then continue from the tv series
Teriyaki Blues
Member
Why hello there, fellow worn and tattered Rawn veteran. Always great to find another survivor in the wild. I gave up all hope when she started writing Glass Thorns.
If G.R.R.M. finishes his series, great. If not, there's always the show and whatever notes he leaves behind. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.
adamsappel
Member
I would love to see him one day publish all the writing he's discarded. He does write slowly, with one finger, on an ancient word processor, and not when he's traveling, and seemingly not on weekends, and only one POV at a time, but he's thrown away A LOT of work. He'll get an idea, write it out for scores of pages, decide it doesn't work and have to think of a new idea.
And for all the shitting on GRRM we do, isn't that the process that gave us the books we supposedly love and want to see more of?
Say TWOW came out tomorrow. How long do you think it takes to write a 1500 page manuscript, especially given all of GRRM's self-imposed limitations?
I've been waiting for David Gerrold to finish the 5th (of 7!) book of his War Against the Chtorr series for 24 years now. He claims to have finished a first draft in 2015, but then he also said it would be published in 2015, too (among many other missed dates). He started the series in 1983.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
This is gonna be one of those threads where people end up ordering a shitload of crow, isn't it?
Machine Messiah
Member
Seven or so years ago, before the show came out, fans of GRRM would denounce threads like this and cite Neil Gaiman's post about how no expectations/responsibilities should be placed on writers/artists.
Also back then, Ran and Linda (as well as their Brotherhood without Banners) were revered as pillars of the community, and their Westeros.org was really the only place you could discuss the books in a large forum setting without people wondering what the hell you're talking about. Any post about "when is the next book coming out? What's taking so long?" would be shot down as entitlement. I knew a few people who actually got banned from Westeros.org just for politely asking about ADWD/etc.
It looks like the public opinion has changed now though, for some reason...
Also back then, Ran and Linda (as well as their Brotherhood without Banners) were revered as pillars of the community, and their Westeros.org was really the only place you could discuss the books in a large forum setting without people wondering what the hell you're talking about. Any post about "when is the next book coming out? What's taking so long?" would be shot down as entitlement. I knew a few people who actually got banned from Westeros.org just for politely asking about ADWD/etc.
It looks like the public opinion has changed now though, for some reason...
Sure, in a few more years.
Right, I feel like ASOIF brought in a lot of fans who don't normally see how long this shit can sit on the backburner. I love the fantasy genre, but some authors, even big names can literally go ghost on you for years without any real idea of timelines expected.
Fortunately the genre has so many authors and new titles dropping all the time, what's one or two series lost in limbo worth when you can pick up something great next month. Like it makes me appreciate authors like Sanderson more for their batshit insane work ethic or Hobb who basically is almost assured to put something great out every year. I don't put expectations on authors anymore, but it's good to see some put it on themselves to see at least annual releases.
Also find me a more prolific writer with solid release schedule than Chuck Tingle.
That's right you can't. Hugo nominated Chuck Tingle. He's the man.
That's right you can't. Hugo nominated Chuck Tingle. He's the man.
2/5. And having a few good books in a series isn't enough to make the entire series any good. Hell, I just finished Yue Guan's Brocade Guards. If you count it as a series (it's longer than most fantasy series), it's way better than a Song of Ice and Fire overall.
I don't think that a Feast For Crows was that bad, but a lot of my regard for it was contingent on a Dance With Dragons being good. They both do have a few good parts, but I still found them a slog overall.
bonesmccoy
Banned
Maybe we could get James Corey to finish them?
Maintenance
Member
They are far from garbage. They could've streamlined/condensed Tyrion's trip a bit, but otherwise the only really bad things about AFFC & ADWD are that they don't really work as standalone books as well as the previous books. While that is a big flaw, it doesn't mean that the content that is in the books is all garbage, just that we need to get TWOW to get all the pay-off we deserve. It's a problem right now when we don't have TWOW, but if TWOW is ever released and handles stuff like
Battle of Winterfell & Meereen, Cersei's trial & such
ROUGE_BLOCK
Member
I trust George, he will get it done and then you'll be ashamed of your words and deeds 😉😉😉😉
Dash_Riprock
Member
Its just like how before BvS and SS came out anyone who criticized MoS was jumped upon for being a "Marvel Fanboy" who only like "safe, boring" films.
Then BvS and SS actually came out, and that defense force was dead by the end of 2016.
There is only so much bullshit fans will put up with before even the most devoted will just tap out and stop White Knighting.
I feel that the only pages he's even written are the ones he's already released as "preview chapters."
Would explain a lot.
They're less garbage and more circuitous filler, going around and around in circles and sprawling further without any hint of inching towards a resolution.
The problem with those books is that there are entire storylines that are bad with few redeeming qualities. Even if the continuation of those storylines ends up good, it does not excuse the bad material. Martin's original idea was correct; he should have just jumped the timeline by a few years and just glossed over the bad material by hitting a few of the high notes. As they stand, much of those two books should have never seen print, and that's what makes them garbage.
lool
To be fair, that's a very pretty "The".
Nydius
Member
I agree largely with this assessment. For the length of time it took between 3 and 4 then 4 and 5 what we got was simply lackluster. After reading Dragons, I came away feeling like Martin either has no editor or whatever editor he sends his manuscripts to is too enamored with the Game of Thrones franchise to tell Martin he needs to cut down of a bunch of shit. The level of pointless minutia in the back half of book 4 and ALL of book 5 often made them painful to read.
I also came away with bad Wheel of Time vibes, in that Martin can't seem to resist throwing in character after character, which simply bloats the story lines and makes it much more difficult to resolve them. Books 1-3 were tighter focused because they didn't have nearly as many ridiculous tangential plotlines flinging the reader everywhere like books 4 and 5 do.
Martin has repeatedly called writing the later books "bitches" and "bastards" yet he kept adding MORE characters and MORE unresolved plot arcs all but ensuring writing the rest is only going to be more difficult. I just don't see him finishing in his lifetime or, if he does, he'll just write some sub-par crap after throwing his hands in the air and realizing he can't wrap up more than half of the plot lines he made.
bengraven
Member
God it's sad that part of me is hoping we get the final book THAT SOON.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Meanwhile he's juggling 4-5 other projects that are eating up his time. Pathetic.
Always one step forward, three steps backwards. He cut his travel schedule and I thought great, now he'll have more time to write. Then he bought a theater. Then he agreed to edit multiple anthologies. Then he did a world book. Then he started working with HBO on new ideas. Then he started working with HBO on the spin off shows. What's next.
Always one step forward, three steps backwards. He cut his travel schedule and I thought great, now he'll have more time to write. Then he bought a theater. Then he agreed to edit multiple anthologies. Then he did a world book. Then he started working with HBO on new ideas. Then he started working with HBO on the spin off shows. What's next.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Thank god the show came along and upended his "who needs planning and plotting!!" ass.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I can basically guarantee that's what happened because its very common when authors become super famous. The reason the first 4 books came out quickly was because GRRM wasn't famous yet so his editor was probably constantly on his ass telling him "Cut this. Trim this. We don't need this. Change this, it doesn't mesh. And hurry up, you have a deadline to meet!"
And GRRM not meeting his deadlines at this point would have been VERY bad for him since it meant he would have to start paying back the advance fee the publisher gave him for the books. So yes, there was a LOT of incentive for GRRM to finish on time and with quality, tight-paced writing.
Once the show started, however, that all vanished. GRRM no longer needed to worry about pushy editors. Deadlines no longer mattered, GRRM could write at his own pace and nothing his editor said or suggested really mattered since the publisher would greedily take his work regardless. Paying back his advance fee? The royalty on the show probably gives ten, twenty times that amount so he doesn't care.
Basically, right now GRRM has no reason to either hurry or write top-quality manuscripts because there are no longer any tangible consequences if he doesn't.
adamsappel
Member
I highly doubt this could happen. GRRM doesn't write like other writers, to his credit and detriment both. He apparently works on one POV at a time, starting and finishing that character's portion of the book, then moves on to another character, and then he has to read that character's previous POV to get into that voice. So, he could be finished with Theon's entire story, but not yet begun Stannis' arc. It's an odd way to work, and no doubt contributes to both the sometimes-meandering prose and dead-ends he goes down and has to restart. It's the reason he was able to release A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons separately even though they cover the same span of time, and leads to complaints about so much time spent with Brienne, "Where do whores go?", etc.
Comments like this probably send him into a shame-eating spiral where he gets no work done at all.
It wouldn't surprise me at all. And with zero chance of him catching up to the show's schedule, he probably doesn't want to rush (haw!) it.
If you read a combined version of AFFC and ADWD, the books are improved immensely. Boiled Leather or A Feast With Dragons has a reading list. A Ball of Beasts is what I read.
Yes, how dare he try and do other things when you are waiting!
Publishers don't press to get their advances back unless the author backs out of the deal altogether. Technically, you're also supposed to pay back the advance money that isn't earned back in sales. Doesn't happen.
He has definitely hit the "I know better than the editors" stage, though. He isn't afraid to scrap the stuff that isn't working, but he does like the stuff he submits.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
And no comments like this keep him.. what.. continuing to eat as he is which means it's just a short time before he dies. How many 70 year olds do you know that are obese like him that are alive? Can you count them in one hand? Being the weight he is after 30 years old is extremely unhealthy and will send you to an early grave. That's a fact. He can take the time he needs to, but that shouldn't stop him from taking care of his body to achieve it.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
In March I made a thread "GRRM, still unfinished with book 6, plans to open film studio"
4 months later, the next season of his show is about to air, he announced a new show he's executive producing, and he somehow found enough time amidst all that to do this lil long interview with Time.
Guess what's still unfinished?
We don't know the resolution so you can't really say they aren't inching towards anything. There's very little in either that AREN'T seemingly building some conflict/event or another. Even Tyrion's trip, one of the most heavily criticized parts of ADWD, has several things being set up that more or less clearly contribute to a larger whole, however those things end up being concluded. I do understand the criticism towards it but at the same time I feel it was kind of natural continuation for Tyrion's story after ASOS.
Tyrion was stripped of EVERYTHING and he hit the rock bottom of rock bottoms. There are small parts I'd remove from it but a large majority of it were used to show and then get Tyrion out of his destructive, obsessive depression. A lot of it was kind of fat to the larger scheme of things, but it was character developing fat that I felt was mostly used to get him back into the game & out of his depression and on the road of getting back into a position of power, which was a logical continuation to all the shit he went through in ASOS. I'd mostly remove the near-end enslavement stuff and just get him to Meereen in a bit less complicated way.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
This isn't true. The first three books are basically one book; he started with the idea of Game Of Thrones ending with the Red Wedding. The world is smaller and the pacing is just right. The problems with Feast and Dance have been discussed as nauseam, no need to go over it again but: five year gap, Meereenese Knot, obsessive worldbuilding, etc.
He has a good editor...he doesn't listen to her much. The manuscript for ADWD is available to read in Texas A&M's library, you can see her notes. He basically outright ignores many lol.
She did convince him to remove the two major battles that were supposed to be in Dance and move them to Winds. I think it was a bad decision. She argues it had to be done or else the book would have been delayed a year to restructure to make room for them.