[Tom'sHardware] AI bubble is worse than the dot-com crash that erased trillions, economist warns

SomeNorseGuy

Gold Member

The only difference between then and now is that there's more to lose.
Torsten Sløk, chief economist at American asset company, Apollo Global Management, has warned that the AI companies and their stock prices are more over-inflated than the dot-com companies of the early 2000s, suggesting that an even bigger crash could be coming. He highlighted 10 of the top-performing AI companies, then suggested that the only real difference between AI businesses today and the dotcom companies of the late 90s and early 2000s is that AI businesses are even more overvalued (via Gizmodo).

The dot-com crash around the turn of the century saw companies rushing to adopt and take advantage of the internet. A relatively new technology and phenomenon at the time, but one that venture capitalists saw as having earning potential. Over the last five years of the 20th century, they invested trillions of dollars, and stock prices for publicly traded internet entities soared, only to come crashing down when the bottom dropped out of the market.

By the early 2000s, many of the companies involved in the boom had gone bust, and even now, industry giants like Amazon have lost huge portions of their investments, earnings, and market capitalization.
That's what Sløk argues is coming for the major AI firms. That's Apple, Microsoft, OpenAI, Meta, Google/Alphabet, Amazon, and a range of other companies. He highlights how these firms have seen huge upticks in their valuations and stock prices in recent years, driven by investments in AI ventures.

This is completely out of whack with the earnings potential of these companies, Sløk argues, and suggests the majority of the gains made to the stock market during this AI boom have been because of the overperformance of these top stocks.

That, he claims, is not going to last, and because the boom is bigger this time, the bust could be even worse. You can expand the tweet below to see the comparison of valuations.

Although Sløk doesn't present a timeline for when any such bust could happen, it's clear even for us non-economists that the money being thrown around by some of the major tech companies is difficult to sustain. OpenAI recently accused Meta of offering $100 million signing bonuses to new AI talent. That's after it invested $14 billion in ScaleAI (only to see 200 employees fired from that company). CoreWeave is investing $6 billion in a new AI center, Amazon might be investing an additional $8 billion in Claude maker, Anthropic. Not to mention Nvidia's push to drive $500 billion in investment in "AI Factories," all while hoping that name catches on.

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With all the talk about AI affecting the gaming industry I thought maybe this would an interesting read. But if it is a bit too off-topic please move it.
 
The market is not real anymore.

The Dotcom bubble existed befoe the federal reserve was deploying quantitative easing and printing trillions to buy and prop the stock markets up

We will never see a crash like that again. Certainly not on Powell and Trump's watch

the market slipped 20% during covid and they printed trillions of dollars and V-recovered the market in months. Imagine how much they would print should we ever start seeing a real crash.
 
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Big difference is that the modern day huge companies are actual real companies that make billions in profit. Stupid billions. Overvalued based on ratios? Perhaps.

But much more trustworthy than the dot.com craze filled with tons of internet companies with absolutely zero, but somehow got listed on Nasdaq worth billions. Most of them went to $0. Many of the big tech companies now are the same ones from that era but in much better shape and profits than 25 years ago.

As a starter, read up on Webvan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webvan
 
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Economists have been warning that <insert latest trend> is worse than the dot-com crash since the dot-com crash. Tesla has been astronomically overvalued for years now. The numbers mean nothing and the points don't matter.

Just make sure your retirement investments aren't in anything especially dumb.
 
The market is not real anymore.

The Dotcom bubble existed befoe the federal reserve was deploying quantitative easing and printing trillions to buy and prop the stock markets up

We will never see a crash like that again. Certainly not on Powell and Trump's watch

the market slipped 20% during covid and they printed trillions of dollars and V-recovered the market in months. Imagine how much they would print should we ever start seeing a real crash.

This is an underrated great point.
 
Big difference is that the modern day huge companies are actual real companies that make billions in profit. Stupid billions. Overvalued based on ratios? Perhaps.

But much more trustworthy than the dot.com craze filled with tons of internet companies with absolutely zero, but somehow got listed on Nasdaq worth billions. Most of them went to $0. Many of the big tech companies now are the same ones from that era but in much better shape and profits than 25 years ago.

As a starter, read up on Webvan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webvan

Dang, you boys cooking in this thread.
 
Big difference is that the modern day huge companies are actual real companies that make billions in profit. Stupid billions. Overvalued based on ratios? Perhaps.

But much more trustworthy than the dot.com craze filled with tons of internet companies with absolutely zero, but somehow got listed on Nasdaq worth billions. Most of them went to $0. Many of the big tech companies now are the same ones from that era but in much better shape and profits than 25 years ago.

As a starter, read up on Webvan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webvan
Yep, look at profit margins and actual profits at Apple, Microsoft, Nvidia, Google and so on.

These arent some pet stores. Where valuations are really nuts are early to mid stage private AI firms being scooped up for insane money.

Markets and valuations might drop (maybe even 20-30%) no question, but unless something completely drastic happens (say China invades Taiwan in 27-28), the Megacorpos are not going anywhere.
 
Economists have been warning that <insert latest trend> is worse than the dot-com crash since the dot-com crash. Tesla has been astronomically overvalued for years now. The numbers mean nothing and the points don't matter.

Just make sure your retirement investments aren't in anything especially dumb.
And that really depends on where and how close to retirement you are as well.

But yeah, diversifying is a must.
 
The market is not real anymore.

The Dotcom bubble existed befoe the federal reserve was deploying quantitative easing and printing trillions to buy and prop the stock markets up

We will never see a crash like that again. Certainly not on Powell and Trump's watch

the market slipped 20% during covid and they printed trillions of dollars and V-recovered the market in months. Imagine how much they would print should we ever start seeing a real crash.
Since the dot.com bust, there's been 2008-09 global crisis, covid meltdown, and Trump tariff meltdown. I think each of these dumped the markets roughly 15-30%. For sake of argument let's say 20-25%. If my memory is bad, it can even be edged up higher. But not even close to dot.com days.

When the dot.com bust happened, Nasdaq dropped 75% from 5,000 to something like 1,200. Even the big companies dropped hard. Back then Amazon, MSFT, NVDA etc... all tanked from like $50-100 to less than $20. I lived through it breakeven with my modest amount of investments at the time in tech. Was up like $10,000, then lost it all back by 2001.

A similar drop in today's market would have Nasdaq dropping from 21,000 to 5,000.
 
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What do you mean this is going to be bad?
NVIDIA are only overvalued by about 4 trillion.
Ha Ha Smile GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 
I'm more worried about the debt and fiat currencies. And Visa/Mastercard hypocritical moral puritan bs. I think that the markets are so manipulated that that kind of fall would be hard to achieve but possible. And my dislike of A.I. makes a part of me wish it would happen. Its crazy that so many companies are pushing generative A.I. when its just blatant theft, whether photo realistic from scraping the web and albums to actual artists that've been outright robbed with none of the effort put in save for "training" the models and convincing the public and potential clients that its some wonderful new "tech".

So actually I do hope it crashes and burns and that they get sued to oblivion the greedy lazy bastards.
 
Well but ai tech is kinda real. We are using it.
I have a hard time realising if it's really a bit unnecessary at best or the best most life changing new invention after the internet… and we are just blind to it.
It's sci-fi
 
Give me 3 examples.

all large language models that are touted to "provide information" or are advertised to be ways to research stuff are complete shit and constantly make up complete nonsense

and that's the biggest usecase for AI currently. it's the one that every company jumped on.

most of the other ones like the ones that "help coding" and generative AI stuff will most likely soon hit a massive roadblock and progression will basically crawl to a halt, which then will make all the promising products like Veo 3 be stuck in limbo, where it has some impressive looking demos, but ultimately will not be useable for actual professional work without so much manual adjustments that it will make the whole thing nonsensical to use in the first place.
 
I'm more worried about the debt and fiat currencies. And Visa/Mastercard hypocritical moral puritan bs. I think that the markets are so manipulated that that kind of fall would be hard to achieve but possible. And my dislike of A.I. makes a part of me wish it would happen. Its crazy that so many companies are pushing generative A.I. when its just blatant theft, whether photo realistic from scraping the web and albums to actual artists that've been outright robbed with none of the effort put in save for "training" the models and convincing the public and potential clients that its some wonderful new "tech".

So actually I do hope it crashes and burns and that they get sued to oblivion the greedy lazy bastards.
Dont remind me of VISA! lol

I bought shares at IPO time for about $60 (split adjusted 3:1 that would be now $20). The stock is now at $350 and pays a div of $2.36. I bailed because of global crisis meltdown and either broke even or lost a bit. That was a bad panic dump on my part!
 
What do you mean this is going to be bad?
NVIDIA are only overvalued by about 4 trillion.
Ha Ha Smile GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon

You jest, i'm sure... because if the exponential growth of LLMs and job destruction remains on it's current trajectory Nvidia is significantly under valued.

I want to give you guys a real-world, current example of how the markets do not comprehend what is coming and thus, traditional analysts using traditional 'value ratios' in the current situation is a recipe for missing the boat entirely.

To give a fine, timely example I could suggest Nvidia but I will offer you all a far more intimate example - Coreweave. It's a recent IPO, and has ran 300%+ which has led to analysts saying things like the OP's quote. This will be a fairly long post so I will TLDR at the end. I personally believe it's very important for people to understand the shift we are about to experience.

unlike the companies in the dotcom bubble peak: Coreweave is genuinely an AI Cash Machine That's Printing Money (Not Just GPUs, to line Jensens fuckin wallet 😂)

The market has overestimated CoreWeave's depreciation and interest expenses, but many people seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of CoreWeave's business model. They think it's just a small-scale AWS providing GPU instances. However, CRWV's core business logic is different from traditional cloud providers.

Traditional cloud providers usually adopt a self-built data center model, investing heavily in capital expenditures (CapEx) and gradually amortizing costs through economies of scale. Their customer base is broad with high demand elasticity, mostly using on-demand payment models, and customers are typically unwilling to sign long-term fixed contracts. To put it simply, when you launch a new GPU EC2 instance on AWS, it involves demand and capacity forecasting, procurement and supply chain management, as well as data center construction and expansion, which can take six months to a year.

In simple terms, traditional cloud providers' business involves estimating future demand based on current usage, making purchases, and hoping to sell it out. This results in long cycles and capital intensity.

In contrast, CRWV adopts a light-asset capital model centered on customer contract cash flows. Specifically, CRWV doesn't rely entirely on its own funds to build data centers. Instead, it signs 4-year Take-or-Pay contracts with a few large customers, using these guaranteed future cash flows as a credit anchor to obtain construction funds through debt financing. This ensures that every investment is backed by clear contracts, significantly reducing depreciation and financing risks.

In other words, CRWV's business is more like a real estate contractor: they prepare everything needed for GPU powering up, sign contracts with customers, quickly finance and procure the GPU supercomputers themselves, and get them online in about three months.
From the sample contract table shared by CRWV to analysts in Deutsche Bank's 6/16 research report , we can see the essence of this model:

1) A typical contract has a total CapEx of $2.86B, but with a Loan-to-Cost ratio as high as 85%, meaning CRWV only uses 15% of its own funds (about $429M in equity investment) to leverage the entire massive CapEx.
2) This 15% is mainly used for the startup phase, with the rest financed through 9% interest debt, fully repaid within 4 years. By year 5, the debt is cleared, turning into a pure cash flow mode.
3) EBITDA margin is stable at 80%, with leveraged free cash flow recovering the 15% own funds in 2-2.5 years.
4)Customer contracts provide stable cash flows to repay loans and depreciation, reaching up to $688M in later stages, with a cumulative net present value exceeding $1B.

According to CoreWeave's 2025 S-1 prospectus and Q1 financial report, the contract backlog is $29.9B. The 2025 CapEx plan is $20-23B, but most of it is covered through leverage, requiring only a small amount of company-owned or equity funds.

TLDR

In summary, the information asymmetry with CRWV lies in the fact that it is a financial engineer for AI computing power. In the context of large-scale (tens to hundreds of billions of dollars) scarcity of computing power like GB200/300 NVL72, it quickly captures the market and continues to leverage GPU generational differences. The dumbass analysts that cry about dotcom era valuations are missing the forest for the trees. We are going to see companies like Nvidia and Coreweave completely defy all traditional value metrics and rise to astonishing market caps while printing hundreds of billions of real-world dollars, not Dotcom pies in the sky..
 
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How is it a bubble? It has practical application that works right now. This isn't some company paying $10million dollars for dogfood.com domain and all that stupid shit then. Yeah somethings wont succeed, but its not like AI isn't going to increase in permanence, its just going to replace the half ass crystal ball economist like this guy.
 
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all large language models that are touted to "provide information" or are advertised to be ways to research stuff are complete shit and constantly make up complete nonsense

and that's the biggest usecase for AI currently. it's the one that every company jumped on.
nah, that's just the most visible one to the general public.

AI in medical research is proving to be extremely effective.
the boys who used AI to process a metric shit ton protein folding won nobel prizes in 2024, and AI is extremely likely to be used for protein designing.

but anyway, there'll be a lot of boys running after this AI train.
the market will consolidate. people will lose money.
the winners will make a ton of money.
all you gotta do is invest in the winners
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How is it a bubble? It has practical application that works right now. This isn't some company paying $10million dollars for dogfood.com domain and all that stupid shit then. Yeah somethings wont succeed, but its not like AI isn't going to increase permanence, its just going to replace the half ass crystal ball economist like this guy.

Bubble as in, every company now wants to implement AI in their system, even if they don't need it or if they are completely incompatible. It's kind of what happened with blockchain where suddenly you had these (literally) 100k/month jobs to implement blockchain and any product derived from there (remember the NFT craze?). Well, NFT market crashed but since the only ones investing there were people with too much money wanting to diversificate the crash didn't affect the common people. Will AI crash? Who knows, it is the future but that doesn't mean it's the future's future, it might crash and be reborn in a "better shape" just as the dot com companies following the dot com crash.

Everyone focusing on blockchain, on AI, but the future is quantum.
 
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Bubble as in, every company now wants to implement AI in their system, even if they don't need it or if they are completely incompatible. It's kind of what happened with blockchain where suddenly you had these (literally) 100k/month jobs to implement blockchain and any product derived from there (remember the NFT craze?). Well, NFT market crashed but since the only ones investing there were people with too much money wanting to diversificate the crash didn't affect the common people. Will AI crash? Who knows, it is the future but that doesn't mean it's the future's future, it might crash and be reborn in a "better shape" just as the dot com companies following the dot com crash.
NFT and AI are complete opposites. NFTs were a cash grab and AI has practical applications. Companies should invest in AI, I cant see what company wouldn't benefit in some sort of capacity. If some CEOs are overleveraging expectations initially that's on them, either way its all scalable.
 
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I think the danger of the AI bubble relative to the web3 shit is that AI is at least plausible enough to stick around for a while before bursting. I am convinced that the utility that AI is actually capable of delivering in its current incarnation isn't there. Then there's the fact that you have to monetize it, that people are fairly aggressive in their distaste for AI or what it produces, etc. It feels unstable at best.

Will it be worse than the dot com bust? Probably not. But I think it'll be a hell of a lot worse than NFTs dying out.
 
The big issue I see with ai is everyone is using it to make sexy images or memes. So that's all it's learning on which is going to make it useless as a creative tool because it's already starting to make the same images just slightly different.
 
I'm not surprised that it's 2025 and people don't realize AI will soon be replacing mass quantities of jobs in many industries and sectors but they'll figure it out after it's way too late to save their own jobs

The real bubble is Tom's Hardware writers thinking they're still necessary in order to add or delete a sentence or two in the AI generated articles they post there. They aren't. Soon they'll all be replaced with just AI generating articles 24/7 without human intervention
 
Will the bubble even burst? it's been going on for years now and AI is still the most valued sector of tech right now.

I don't like to be pessimistic but i doubt it will explode like the dotcom bubble. And if it does, nobody who's important is getting hurt

I'm not surprised that it's 2025 and people don't realize AI will soon be replacing mass quantities of jobs in many industries and sectors but they'll figure it out after it's way too late to save their own jobs
Why do you people always talk like you aren't going to be caught in the blast radius? "it'll replace so many jobs in the coming future" how does that not include yours?
 
NFT and AI are complete opposites. NFTs were a cash grab and AI has practical applications. Companies should invest in AI, I cant see what company wouldn't benefit in some sort of capacity. If some CEOs are overleveraging expectations initially that's on them, either way its all scalable.

Right now "investing in AI" means, "pay an Open AI subscription and see how to add it into our system". That's not investing, that's implementing an API rising the costs of your system (which can be pretty high) for a feature that not every client might want. Working in the healthcare industry everyone is right now asking whether our system implements Ambient AI, every one asks the same as in forums people tell them "buy a system that has ambient ai" even though they have no idea what it does. Forcing companies to implement something because of a buzzword is personally a bubble.
 
The market is not real anymore.

The Dotcom bubble existed befoe the federal reserve was deploying quantitative easing and printing trillions to buy and prop the stock markets up

We will never see a crash like that again. Certainly not on Powell and Trump's watch

the market slipped 20% during covid and they printed trillions of dollars and V-recovered the market in months. Imagine how much they would print should we ever start seeing a real crash.
You should read the book, "The Invisible Crash." To summarize: it talks about stocks going up in nominal pricing but losing value at the same time. It's an older book but very good.

If you look at the stock market making all time highs recently, its peak in value was actually in the year 2000. It may be much higher now nominally but has lost value in comparison to other things over the past 25 years. Thus an invisible crash. It happened big in 1966 too.
 
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all large language models that are touted to "provide information" or are advertised to be ways to research stuff are complete shit and constantly make up complete nonsense

and that's the biggest usecase for AI currently. it's the one that every company jumped on.

most of the other ones like the ones that "help coding" and generative AI stuff will most likely soon hit a massive roadblock and progression will basically crawl to a halt, which then will make all the promising products like Veo 3 be stuck in limbo, where it has some impressive looking demos, but ultimately will not be useable for actual professional work without so much manual adjustments that it will make the whole thing nonsensical to use in the first place.
That's why they're expanding it's capabilities beyond the LLM and RAG alone. We're seeing use cases for MCP and A2A greatly expanding the possibilities.

I definitely see things being overrated short term but AI isn't going away. It's a disruptive technology in good and bad ways.
 
Yep, look at profit margins and actual profits at Apple, Microsoft, Nvidia, Google and so on.

These arent some pet stores. Where valuations are really nuts are early to mid stage private AI firms being scooped up for insane money.

Markets and valuations might drop (maybe even 20-30%) no question, but unless something completely drastic happens (say China invades Taiwan in 27-28), the Megacorpos are not going anywhere.

Doesn't a lot of nvidia's profits come from them selling GPUs for AI though?

I also don't really understand all the talk about how AI has practical use. The internet does too.

Not saying there will necessarily be a dot com bubble size crash though.
 
That's why they're expanding it's capabilities beyond the LLM and RAG alone. We're seeing use cases for MCP and A2A greatly expanding the possibilities.

I definitely see things being overrated short term but AI isn't going away. It's a disruptive technology in good and bad ways.
It is not going away but will it generate the kind of profits that these valuations think they will? I don't know. I think outside of NVIDIA, there is too much competition for any single player to make the kind of revenue needed to justify these valuations.
 
To be honest, if you remove very specific corner cases, AI is just a bunch of tecno babble advertised by a bunch of people who or are too useless because they need AI for basic tasks or are selling AI tools so they need to scream that this is the future - and that includes some users even on this topic.
 
Even if there is an AI bubble and it bursts, it's not going away.
Remember how the dot-com bubble killed e-commerce forevermore? Yeah, me neither.
 
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