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Toonami |Feb14| We Kick Ass for the LORD!
- Thread starter Seda
- Start date
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8NITc0BHUE
So I got to this ending of Inuyasha meaning I'm officially done with my catch up. Mount Hakure was name dropped.
Glad I did it. Couple of days to decompress before I start Narut The Lost Years Uncut!
So I got to this ending of Inuyasha meaning I'm officially done with my catch up. Mount Hakure was name dropped.
Glad I did it. Couple of days to decompress before I start Narut The Lost Years Uncut!
Beelzeboss
Member
I thought the exact same thing about Rick and Morty when watching zombie Space Dandy. I don't know why but I always feel like the shows are pretty similar.
Except for the death count, Dandy is like Game of Thrones in that regard.
I'm in Malaysia, you butt, and this place has terrible internet (which of course has no relation to the watching of toonami whatsoever)
mightynine
Member
One doesn't involve cousins. Boom.
Honest answer, I think there's a big difference in the budding teenage crush Naota has on Haruko and how the latter tries to use the former for her own goals (but in the end kinda likes the kid anyway, though NOT IN THAT WAY) than Sugu's lust for her cuz
Now if you're talking about Mamimi and Naota, yeah, that one's a bit off, but that's always been more on how Mamimi isn't the most stable person in the world rather than mutual interest between the two. Well, there's some crushing there too from Naota, but that's it.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Rick and Morty is about as 'dark' as Futurama.
Schadenfreude
Member
I'm so clever.
mightynine
Member
Now that I'm thinking about it, Dipper crushing on Wendy is another one of those pubertly-fueled relationships just like Naota and Haruko, though obviously Wendy isn't using Dipper to her own ends.
,,,or is she? DUN-DUN-DUNNNN
,,,or is she? DUN-DUN-DUNNNN
Ha. There seems to be a lot of boys flirting with much older girls in cartoons as of late. In Adventure Time Finn blows up at PB for friendzoning him so hard.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Alright, I'll take a stab at this
The first thing I would like to address is the 'incestous' relationship between Kazuno and Sugu. Personally, I don't get why people still complain about incest in SAO because there isn't any to begin with. Incest is a sexual relationship between two blood relatives, that doesn't happen here. Sugu definitely has a creepy crush on her cousin but those types of relationships are not considered as taboo in Japan as they are in most of the United States.
This past weekend Leefa and Kirito discovered each other's real world identities in a hilarious fashion. After they both logged out of the game Kazuno confronted his cousin in real life and she told him this whole sob story about how she had fallen in love with him and felt like her feelings had been betrayed. At this point Kazuno didn't step into her room and go to pound town, he apologized and effectively said 'I'm sorry you got hurt but my heart belongs to someone else.' Never did Kazuno/Kirito give even the slightest hint of sexual attraction to Sugu/Leefa, this crush was entirely one sided. Therefore, looking at this from an objective standpoint, I did not find there to be an incestous relationship.
FLCL definitely features some iffy relationships. Haruko, a grown woman, kisses Naota but nobody bats an eye or complains. In some places her actions theoughout the show would be considered statutory rape to be honest. Minami is also an older female character who has some type of relationship with Naota. While it's not expressly stated that their relationship is sexual, I could see how a viewer might interpret it that way. Ignoring that though since this isn't about speculation, why is a 17 year old girl constantly hanging out with a 12 year old boy? I'm sure someone will say that it's because Naota reminds her of his older brother but why doesn't anyone find that weird?
I think the reason why some people, especially males, don't have that same disgusted reaction to some of the shenanigans in FLCL is because of gender recognition. Who among us hasn't had a crush as a child on an older woman? Naota being kissed and seduced by an older woman is gratifying for some of us to see because we fantasized about going through the same scenario (albeit not as wacky) with our crushes as adolescents and young teens. That might explain why a blind eye is turned towards the pedophilia that occurs in FLCL.
A young boy coming to a sexual awakening via an older woman is a common trope of coming of age stories in all forms of media.
Cousin technical non-incest might well be the norm for Japanese audiences (...but it's also probably not), but it doesn't take a genius to tell why a western audience viewing an English dub finds it creepy, regardless of in-universe context and regardless of whether the relationship is consummated or even reciprocated
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Of course a western audience would find that weird but what do you expect to happen? Should the originally work be heavily censored because many Americans find cousin crushing to be icky? This is an animated show made in Japan, they don't have to cater to a Western audience.
Doctor Decimate
Member
I refuse to refer to Suguha and Kazuto as cousins because that's just the way the show tries to make the brother/sister thing ok on paper. They're siblings in my eyes, in the eyes of the people fapping to this, and in the eyes of at least the people writing the dub script.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Next time you should quote the portion of my post you are replying to, it makes things less confusing.
My point originally was that there isn't any incest in SAO, it's just a weird cousin crush. I already mentioned how relationships between relatives are taboo in most of the US; I'm aware of why it comes off as creepy to an American audience.
BassForever
Member
Sugu's attraction to her brother is incestuous even if they aren't blood brother and sister. They still act and treat each other like siblings and that is where it gets creepy for most American viewers. It doesn't help that a lot of eroge/ecchi/hentai series use the "oh we're cousins/step siblings" despite the characters looking identical to hide real incest behind fake censorship. Its the same way the school days metaverse has incest child rape but depicts the girls as 20 something year olds, it allows them to avoid the Japanese version of AO.
I'm on a tablet, quoting is as huge pain in the ass. Actually writing anything at all is because the prediction software on Swype is lagging like a motherfucker.
Also, you can argue until you're blue in the face that there's no incest in Sao, just like there's no dying in generic anime 145 because defeated foes get sent to the shadow realm and are never heard from again
Dr.Palutena
Member
You see , I believe in cultural relativism so I don't actually get behind certain "lol, Japan" and other forms of poo-pooing their culture. But the whole cousin relationship thing doesn't exist in a vacuum here, if there wasn't specifically a fetishized focus on them being related but technically culturally ok part there wouldn't be a problem. I have seen works from japan that has cousins interested in each other (or I at least vaguely recall, i should double check this) but you know, they didn't spend a lot of time going "THEY WERE RAISED LIKE BROTHER AND SISTER AND THINK OF EACH OTHER THAT WAY" and *then* went "Oh hey, but technically they aren't related as brother/sister , just cousins...so...uh...should they go for it???...DRAMA?!?" . To be clear with this doesn't necessarily apply to just SAO as of recent.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
So because the story revolves around a young boy, that makes it okay? Tamanon brings up a great point:
I feel like the Naota-Haruko relationship is tolerated because it allows some (not all) males to live out a childhood fantasy. I'm pretty sure every straight adolescent boy growing up develops a crush on an older woman at some point, FLCL is in part an extension of that fantasy. Nobody bats an eye at this kind of thing because the industry is dominated by males.
Doctor Decimate
Member
#girlwood
Dr.Palutena
Member
I'd say there is also a difference between something being played straight and for drama and played for laughs (or at least in a show that is mostly comical and nonsensical) but that's just me and it's kinda dismissive. I won't ever deny that a lot of dynamics and fantasies, from hot older women hitting on you/"sexually enlightening you" to every girl wanting to be with you "up to and including relatives" are all rooted in a male dominated global culture and industry.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Going by the definition of incest, no, their relationship does not fall under that umbrella.
Here's a real life example I don't mind sharing. Over winter break one year when I was in high school my uncle brought his daughter (my cousin) over to hang out, she was around 7 and I was 14. She was born out of wedlock and didn't have a great home life, I was definitely a brotherly figure to her. We were sitting on the couch watching TV when all of a sudden she says 'I've got a crush on someone!' I asked who, thinking it was one of her classmates or a pop star and she said it was me. I immediately got weirded out and tried to explain as best I could to a child that she could not have a crush on me because we were cousins and that would be just one of many reason why it would be weird as hell. Did I engage in an incestous relationship? No, it was just a case of creepy cousin crush. Now obviously there are some differences between my situation and SAO but I think you get the point.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I don't have to argue until I'm blue in the face because I'm using the textbook definition of 'incest' to make my point. If you can't accept that then we have nothing further to discuss.
And there's a difference between censorship and reality.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Déjà vu. Thought it was already established that whether people are using the textbook definition of incest or using it as shorthand for "an attraction to a relative" is irrelevant to the larger point.
Dr.Palutena
Member
There's no point in discussion if someone is arguing in semantics and ignoring the differences between connotation and denotation, also of language change. Also no point when all of that stuff is largely missing the whole point , or you know ignoring the point of the differences between real situations and a writers intent in replicating said situations in fiction.
If only every girl was that forward with their feelings!
Eeeh the last episode I watched had.
- An accidental homicide undertaken by the main characters, this one played humorously.
- An attempted rape, carried out almost completely seriously despite one party being a jellybean.
- A very realistic hostage scenario. Futurma would have added more humor to it.
- A very frank discussion on how settling down and having kids/a husband can be suffocating and limits your options. Played for humor but done completely seriously.
- The cover up of a dead child raping king, who was murdered again by the main characters.
The show is certainly an absurd comedy but tonally it is so far far darker than futurama normally is.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
So when I say no incest technically occurred in SAO because there wasn't any sexual activity or reciprocation of feelings, but acknowledge that I can understand how the relationship between the cousins is weird because that kind of thing is taboo to most American viewers I'm playing a semantics game? I was just pointing out a fact, it's not my fault if that is going to be ignored.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Maybe I'm just sick but that hostage situation was so hilarious because it didn't have much humor to it.
Holy shit, this DTL post from their (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47256254&postcount=10577) just broke my brain
Oh man I remember this lol
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I watched that one last night!
I'll give you the toilet rape scene, that was pretty messed up. Everything else was done in a humorous fashion in my opinion.
Futurama dealt with suicide, depression, foster care, alcoholism, and death but did it for the most part in a light hearted way. So yeah, I guess you're right that R&M is 'darker' so far but I wouldn't say it's much more so. Maybe I'm desensitized.
You win this one.
Dr.Palutena
Member
Bringing it up meant it was considered worth bringing up, and if something isn't helping an argument or a point it's *probably* hurting it, which is why people called you out on it. Trying to bring up the denotative meaning of incest when everyone is clearly talking about the connotative meaning is clearly being semantic and even if you acknowledge that it was neither here nor there on why people think it's weird, you clearly brought it up for a reason , which seemed to be "Oh it's bad and dumb, but it's not THAT bad i never saw it THAT way" .
But oh well. carry on.
But oh well. carry on.
Doctor Decimate
Member
The attempted rape got to be a little...much. I'd be bitching if it wasn't a jellybean and I didn't read the writer's justification.
Dr.Palutena
Member
Gucci Messiah
Banned
What's the difference between being raised as cousins and being raised as siblings? I ask this because I am an only child and don't view the situations as much different. Sugu had to move in with Kazuno's family, how else was she supposed to be raised?
Also, how big is the sibling fetish niche in Japan? Wasn't SAO written by a kid? Was he really pandering to a specific crowd?
Unspeakable Evil
Member
This was the only episode I've seen and the attempted rape made me feel bad for that kid.
Even if it was a jellybean
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