Everything. A cousin is just like a friend you see a lot or occasionally, a sibling is family.
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Toonami |Feb14| We Kick Ass for the LORD!
- Thread starter Seda
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Everything. A cousin is just like a friend you see a lot or occasionally, a sibling is family.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Your first sentence doesn't even make sense to me.
Clearly the definition of the subject we are talking about matters, that's why I brought it up. I didn't even try to drop that in the middle of the conversation, I'm the one who mentioned it in my first post that got the discussion rolling. It doesn't matter if anyone wants to ignore the true meaning of the word incest and talk about what was implied instead. People 'called me out' because they started discussing implications rather than fact, all I've done is reinforce my original point. I'm not ignoring anyone or playing a semantics game but ok.
Dr.Palutena
Member
Yea ok, whatever.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Huh, I see. Maybe it differs from person to person but most of my cousins on one side of my family live in the same city and act like close family.
I have family down South that I haven't seen in half a decade. We have family a state over that we luckily get to see multiple times a year.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I'm not sure if you're frustrated or whatever but I'm willing to have a dialogue. I don't see how I'm in the wrong for using a definition to determine if a certain situation is occurring. It doesn't matter in my eyes if the conversation switched gears to talking about implications rather than facts because I've done nothing but reinforce one portion of my original post on the subject. I've acknowledged how different cultural norms affect how incest is viewed in America and Japan. I totally get why it's creepy and weird, I guess the main problem is that we don't have a word for 'creepy cousin crush' in the English language so incest is the first thing that comes to mind.
I say this because 'yeah ok, whatever' is a very dismissive response, not in the 'Lol u mad' sense. I'm trying to understand but it's hard when I feel like you're dancing around the issue and being overly convulted. No offense, that wasn't meant to be an insult.
Alright, now time for the post-lunch "fuck the workweek" firestarter
I'm setting the over/under at 12.5 people banned in this thread before it gets closed
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=758977
Do you take the over or the under?
I'm actually going to take the under- I think people are scared after all the graveyard threads relating to this game as of late
I'm setting the over/under at 12.5 people banned in this thread before it gets closed
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=758977
Do you take the over or the under?
I'm actually going to take the under- I think people are scared after all the graveyard threads relating to this game as of late
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Yeah, while watching last night I started laughing at the initial come on but once the jellybean guy pushed Morty into the stall and started licking his face, things got really uncomfortable. I'm not sure what was more disturbing, the attempted rape or Morty's reaction after coming out of the bathroom.This was the only episode I've seen and the attempted rape made me feel bad for that kid.
Even if it was a jellybean
I'll take the under as well, I'd like to think most people are smart enough to realize that console warring is going to be met with a swift ban. I've been shocked at all the recent graveyard threads, it's kind of disheartening.
Dr.Palutena
Member
I am trying to form words but i just can't get over the irony of being the one called "Obtuse and dancing around the issue" . Look if you think sticking strictly to definitions of words as they are defined in the dictionary and not the connotative meaning that changes based on the progress of time and culture is a good place to start an argument then sure , ok. If you think this isn't being semantic then fine,ok.
If you want to go down the that route then sure, it is not incest, but it is very much so an incestuous relationship being emphasized and played up for drama (which to be honest would be fine except SAO does it in every possible wrong way possible), which is to say it pertains to incest even if incest doesn't take place. Talking about it as not incest, even while saying that there are differences between American and Japanese culture still misses the point and is literally being obtuse and dismissive to what people are complaining about.
If anything I was saying "yea ok , whatever" because I felt *you* were being obtuse and dancing around the issue and there was no point to further discuss.
Edit: I see two bans in that thread already, doesn't seem like the under is a good bet.
If you want to go down the that route then sure, it is not incest, but it is very much so an incestuous relationship being emphasized and played up for drama (which to be honest would be fine except SAO does it in every possible wrong way possible), which is to say it pertains to incest even if incest doesn't take place. Talking about it as not incest, even while saying that there are differences between American and Japanese culture still misses the point and is literally being obtuse and dismissive to what people are complaining about.
If anything I was saying "yea ok , whatever" because I felt *you* were being obtuse and dancing around the issue and there was no point to further discuss.
Edit: I see two bans in that thread already, doesn't seem like the under is a good bet.
mightynine
Member
I'll take the over, just to go against the grain.
Dr.Palutena
Member
"Sadly" yea, I think quick and early bans limit the potential for this to grow further . That usually warns people off versus the threads that grow quickly and big and THEN the bans come.
Also, Gucci, I'm sorry if I offended by calling you obtuse.
BassForever
Member
First 2-3 responders will be banned due those "here we go again" and "incoming 100 post" so I'll say over. The reason the thread is moving slow is because so many people who inflated the last 2 are banned
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I was looking for a word that meant 'overly complicated' or 'difficult to understand' and typed obtuse. I went back to look up the definition because I wasn't 100% sure it was being used correctly, saw that it is synonymous with stupid, and quickly made an edit because that was not my intention. It was up for less than 60 seconds and I apologize for the mix up.
I already noted in my previous post that the problem is that there is no word in the English language for 'creepy cousin crush' so people use the word incest. I'm just saying that what occurred in SAO isn't technically incest based on the actual definition of the word. I haven't ignored the connotative meaning, I've mentioned at length that I understand why people think the Kazuno-Sugu relationship is weird in the west. If you still think I'm playing a semantics game, then ok. A relationship needs two to tango. The subject of incest is certainly dangled before the viewer and teased but it doesn't happen. Saying SAO uses incest to play up drama is one thing, claiming that an incestous relationship actually occurs is another. That's all I'm trying to differentiate.
Maybe now we'll be on the same page.
BassForever
Member
I don't think anyone in Toonami gaf has said "sao has incest" what most of us have said is "it has incestuous overtones" which is true. Unless you have a better phrase for "kids raised as siblings who later find out their cousins and now one wants to bone the other" I think incestuous overtones works well
Dr.Palutena
Member
Relationships exist even if they aren't all romantic and they exist with potentially different feelings in either directions , a relationship can thus be incestuous even if it's only romantic desire from one direction. I think I just don't get the point in such differentiation of whether or not incest occurs by definition. I don't feel the complaint of incest in SAO is even a matter of cultural differences, I think it's entirely a matter of portrayal , as I said earlier I am a cultural relativist and don't actually care all too much about cousin relationships being a thing in Japan, what I do care about is how it is handled and the writers (not necessarily the writer of the novel who was 12 ) intent in showing it and often than not in most shows I've seen including SAO, there is an element of playing it up and fetishizing it.
Just because they aren't boning doesn't mean that the whole affair has doesn't incestual overtones regardless of whether or not their is reciprocation. Since this is a PG/PG-13 work you're not going to see straight up sex or even kissing. However, this arrangement is clearly designed to appeal to those who have those "little sister"/"big brother" fetishes. Girls are allowed to feel sorry and feel empathy for Sugu's "plight" and guys get to put themselves in the shoes of Gary Stu extraordinaire Kazuto and have a HOT sister fall for them. Plus lets be honest, Sugu has more than a crush, she's straight up in LOVE (lets ignore that it's not well developed though because SAO has shitty writing) with Kazuto :/ People have an issue with this because its pandering of the highest order. The, "but they're actually cousins" thing is such a common set up in these pandering works. They were raised as brother and sister so effectively that's what they are. Having Sugu fall in love with Kazuto is meant to tickle the "bone" of those who are into that stuff.
You need to stop looking at the "letter of the law" and more at the "heart of the law". Even if it isn't incest in the strictest of definitions, everybody knows what everybody else means (incestual overtones) and you are wasting time trying to argue the semantics.
FLCL handles relationship in a completely different manner. The aim isn't to pander, its to make commentary on puberty and/or some not-totally-all-right characters. It's the same reason why people are often willing to give a pass to objectionable material in other works. We recognize humans can be fucked up and do fucked up shit. When such things are written to actually tell a compelling story, make social commentary, set the stage and background for a world that's not entirely ok, etc. we get that and accept that. When its done just to sell to those into that sort of shit (and its often not that hard to tell between the two objectives), people tend to call bullshit.
Haruko is a conniving, manipulative woman who will do anything to get what she wants and as she says herself could give two shits as to the fate of the Earth. Nothing she does is to pander to the audience in this regard, everything she does is either to show how awful a person she is or to use as a springboard to develop Naota and his trials of puberty. Nobody thinks this is awesome because we are never supposed to think its awesome. Nobody defends this because there's nothing to defend. Few cry out in agony though because we understand its role in the narrative both from a superficial and metaphorical standpoint. Again, its not to pander but to describe. It also helps that the show has INSANE animation, AMAZING music, OVER THE TOP action and, most importantly, is WELL WRITTEN. The last bit is a huge reason why the odd things shown in the show don't bother most people: the writing actually holds up.
Mamimi's relationship with Naota is solely that she's using him as a stand in for his brother who used to be her boyfriend before he left for America and got a new girl. He is the next best thing to his brother so she projects onto him. At no point in the show is this considered healthy or normal (Mamimi's clearly not all right in the head). The other characters in the show often comment on those two jokingly but nobody within the show or outside it (the audience) thinks there is any genuine love or feelings being exchanged between the two. Naota cares for her but only in the way any person would care for someone they know that they are on friendly terms with (I'm sure they've known each other for quite a while due to the shared link of his brother). Again, there is no pandering here just a depiction of some characters that aren't totally right in the head. It does harken back to some escapades that some people have encountered during their stint through puberty but again it isn't there to pander but rather as commentary.
The difference is gigantic. There are two reasons incest is frowned upon in almost every major culture: genetics and familial relationships. There is kind of a natural safeguard that trends away from incest and actual instinctual relationships since they are a good way to pool damaging recessive alleles, weaken genotypic & phenotypic diversity, and decrease evolutionary flexibility. Evo-psychology I think is a bit dangerous since I feel like its used more often to confirm already held biases than explain established trends but there is genetic proof that in the long term children born of incest tend to be bad (see increased rate of birth defects) and as such it is discouraged again and again through strong societal pressures in most major cultures.
The second reason is that the familial relationship between a parent-child and between siblings is much different than any other sort of relationship. Even in instances where a incestual relationship is consensual (which is the minority to my understanding) it often leads to broken family dynamics and messy homes as you are introducing concepts and feelings that have no place in the standard parent-child and sibling-sibling relationship. Note that these relationships aren't explicitly related to the degree of genetic relationship which is why adopted children can form these same bonds for example. It all has to do with how societal bonds and relationships are formed.
Its also the reason relationships between siblings and cousins are just intrinsically different. It has more to do with proximity and degree of interactions, especially during your formative child years. I have cousins who lived on the same block as me when I was growing up so I saw and interacted with them all the time when I was a kid. As such, I consider them my sisters even if our parents are different. I have family members who I'm equally closely related genetically to who I interact with as cousins due to that degree of separation. I love them all but how we interact with each other is just different. Even as an only child I'm sure you have family members who you are equally related to but have vastly different relationships with no?
There's a huge difference between the crush a child might have on a teenager (power and hero dynamics come into play) and the one from one teenager directed at another. Also, again, what Sugu has goes beyond the level of a crush.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
People in here have said that SAO has incest before. I'm on mobile so I won't go dig through and find examples but trust me. I don't have issue with anyone saying there's incestuous overtones because that's the truth; I just don't agree with the notion that it actually occurred. I'm probably being extremely nitpicky here when it comes to wording, and I apologize if so, but that's the point I've tried to get across.
There really is no word in English for 'creepy cousin crush' and have noted that before. That explains why some people say there's 'incest' going on, how else are they going to describe the relationship? I'm starting to realize that through this discussion. It's been insightful.
Doctor Decimate
Member
The writer maintains that what was going on wasn't rape so much as "LICK ME I'M A JELLYBEAN" since a jellybean has no genitals. Assuming the writer isn't making a joke here that's over my head, I do think that justification helps...even if it wasn't conveyed like at all. The absurdity of the situation is what lets me forgive it I think. There's a reddit link in the thread I linked Imperial Bishop to a few pages back that has the explanation.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I guess I just have a hard time accepting that romantic desire from one side but not the other still creates a relationship. I get that a relationship doesn't have to be romantic but in this context we are talking about that emotion. This is probably why you have a hard time understanding why I am differentiating and I have a hard time understanding why you're not.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Great post crocodile, that helped clear a lot of things up.
Schadenfreude
Member
A nice, civil discussion? In my ToonamiGAF?
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Apparently, there's a Space Dandy manga that's publishing alongside the anime.
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/magazine/yg/introduction/spacedandy/
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/magazine/yg/introduction/spacedandy/
Doctor Decimate
Member
Or was this his goal all along?
Doctor Decimate
Member
Edward Elric's spear? Try Every Single Alchemist Who Wants A Melee Weapon's Spear.
Nothing beats his Sword of Omens. That was a gorgeous piece
Artwork's pretty good. Wonder if it'll get translated, especially since it seems to differ from the anime (as far as we know) & you can read the entire thing for free on that site.
Also, one of these days, I need to make an avatar of zombie QT.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Holy crap, thanks for the introduction to Man at Arms
Schadenfreude
Member
Why didn't he just use alchemy? Would have taken him like 5 seconds.
He hasn't seen the gate. It explains why he has all his limbs.
Schadenfreude
Member
Ahh. Of course.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
I wonder where he stores all those pop culture weapons...
If I wasn't a broke free-loader, I'd try to buy some of that stuff off of him.
If I wasn't a broke free-loader, I'd try to buy some of that stuff off of him.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I know I usually do this on Tuesday's but does anyone else want to make some ratings predictions? There was a UFC fight on Saturday night, not sure if that will matter. Here's what I think we'll see:
Space Dandy - 1.35M
Bleach - 1.3M
Shippuden - 1.1M
One Piece - 915K
Soul Eater - 850K
Sword Art Online - 760K
FLCL - 625K
Naruto - 675K
FMAB - 540K
GitS - 510K
IGPX - 485K
Clone Wars - 550K
Inuyasha - 625K
For reference, here are ratings for the month of January thus far.
TOONAMI SATURDAY, JANUARY 4, 2014
(in total viewers)
11:30PM Space Dandy 0.8 HH, 1.153 million
12:00AM Bleach 0.8 HH, 1.084 million
12:30AM Naruto: Shippuden 0.7 HH, 933,000
1:00AM One Piece 0.6 HH, 856,000
1:30AM Soul Eater 0.6 HH, 866,000
2:00AM Sword Art Online 0.6 HH, 773,000
2:30AM Fooly Cooly 0.5 HH, 605,000
3:00AM Naruto 0.5 HH, 685,000
3:30AM Fullmetal: Brotherhood 0.4 HH, 532,000
4:00AM Ghost in the Shell 0.4 HH, 500,000
4:30AM IGPX: Immortal Grand Prix 0.4 HH, 462,000
5:00AM Star Wars: Clone Wars 0.4 HH, 531,000
5:30AM Inuyasha 0.4 HH, 547,000
TOONAMI SATURDAY, JANUARY 11, 2014
(in total viewers)
11:30PM Space Dandy 0.9 HH, 1.204 million
12:00AM Bleach 0.8 HH, 1.201 million
12:30AM Naruto: Shippuden 0.8 HH, 1.130 million
1:00AM One Piece 0.6 HH, 919,000
1:30AM Soul Eater 0.6 HH, 822,000
2:00AM Sword Art Online 0.5 HH, 740,000
2:30AM Fooly Cooly 0.5 HH, 626,000
3:00AM Naruto 0.5 HH, 675,000
3:30AM Fullmetal: Brotherhood 0.5 HH, 597,000
4:00AM Ghost in the Shell 0.4 HH, 565,000
4:30AM IGPX: Immortal Grand Prix 0.4 HH, 540,000
5:00AM Star Wars: Clone Wars 0.5 HH, 653,000
5:30AM Inuyasha 0.5 HH, 709,000
TOONAMI SATURDAY, JANUARY 18, 2014
(in total viewers)
11:30PM Space Dandy 1.0 HH, 1.411 million
12:00AM Bleach 0.9 HH, 1.303 million
12:30AM Naruto: Shippuden 0.8 HH, 1.167 million
1:00AM One Piece 0.6 HH, 892,000
1:30AM Soul Eater 0.6 HH, 844,000
2:00AM Sword Art Online 0.6 HH, 752,000
2:30AM Fooly Cooly 0.5 HH, 618,000
3:00AM Naruto 0.5 HH, 561,000
3:30AM Fullmetal: Brotherhood 0.4 HH, 512,000
4:00AM Ghost in the Shell 0.3 HH, 424,000
4:30AM IGPX: Immortal Grand Prix 0.3 HH, 405,000
5:00AM Star Wars: Clone Wars 0.4 HH, 533,000
5:30AM Inuyasha 0.3 HH, 461,000
Space Dandy - 1.35M
Bleach - 1.3M
Shippuden - 1.1M
One Piece - 915K
Soul Eater - 850K
Sword Art Online - 760K
FLCL - 625K
Naruto - 675K
FMAB - 540K
GitS - 510K
IGPX - 485K
Clone Wars - 550K
Inuyasha - 625K
For reference, here are ratings for the month of January thus far.
TOONAMI SATURDAY, JANUARY 4, 2014
(in total viewers)
11:30PM Space Dandy 0.8 HH, 1.153 million
12:00AM Bleach 0.8 HH, 1.084 million
12:30AM Naruto: Shippuden 0.7 HH, 933,000
1:00AM One Piece 0.6 HH, 856,000
1:30AM Soul Eater 0.6 HH, 866,000
2:00AM Sword Art Online 0.6 HH, 773,000
2:30AM Fooly Cooly 0.5 HH, 605,000
3:00AM Naruto 0.5 HH, 685,000
3:30AM Fullmetal: Brotherhood 0.4 HH, 532,000
4:00AM Ghost in the Shell 0.4 HH, 500,000
4:30AM IGPX: Immortal Grand Prix 0.4 HH, 462,000
5:00AM Star Wars: Clone Wars 0.4 HH, 531,000
5:30AM Inuyasha 0.4 HH, 547,000
TOONAMI SATURDAY, JANUARY 11, 2014
(in total viewers)
11:30PM Space Dandy 0.9 HH, 1.204 million
12:00AM Bleach 0.8 HH, 1.201 million
12:30AM Naruto: Shippuden 0.8 HH, 1.130 million
1:00AM One Piece 0.6 HH, 919,000
1:30AM Soul Eater 0.6 HH, 822,000
2:00AM Sword Art Online 0.5 HH, 740,000
2:30AM Fooly Cooly 0.5 HH, 626,000
3:00AM Naruto 0.5 HH, 675,000
3:30AM Fullmetal: Brotherhood 0.5 HH, 597,000
4:00AM Ghost in the Shell 0.4 HH, 565,000
4:30AM IGPX: Immortal Grand Prix 0.4 HH, 540,000
5:00AM Star Wars: Clone Wars 0.5 HH, 653,000
5:30AM Inuyasha 0.5 HH, 709,000
TOONAMI SATURDAY, JANUARY 18, 2014
(in total viewers)
11:30PM Space Dandy 1.0 HH, 1.411 million
12:00AM Bleach 0.9 HH, 1.303 million
12:30AM Naruto: Shippuden 0.8 HH, 1.167 million
1:00AM One Piece 0.6 HH, 892,000
1:30AM Soul Eater 0.6 HH, 844,000
2:00AM Sword Art Online 0.6 HH, 752,000
2:30AM Fooly Cooly 0.5 HH, 618,000
3:00AM Naruto 0.5 HH, 561,000
3:30AM Fullmetal: Brotherhood 0.4 HH, 512,000
4:00AM Ghost in the Shell 0.3 HH, 424,000
4:30AM IGPX: Immortal Grand Prix 0.3 HH, 405,000
5:00AM Star Wars: Clone Wars 0.4 HH, 533,000
5:30AM Inuyasha 0.3 HH, 461,000
Schadenfreude
Member
Everyone is always offering to buy the weapons from him, but I don't think he sells them. I've seen a lot of the weapons he's made around the shop in the newer videos.
These are fun to look at. Most of the shows are either growing, or have found a consistent number. Then you have the randomness of the Inuyasha ratings.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Clone Wars doesn't deserve that number, it's only getting bumped cause of InuYasha.
BassForever
Member
It used to get a bigger bump at 3am, and last weeks episode was actually pretty good if s2 is more like that I think opinions will warm up
I enjoyed last saturday's clone wars and from what I understand it gets more serialized from here on out. You guys should really stop hating on it and check it out. You may be surprised. At the very least it isn't as soul crushingly boring as IGPX, which I would argue is the 'worst' show on the block.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Nope, it'll always suck.
if we were taking about real life I'd agree with you about it, but we're not talking about life. We're taking about a piece of media that someone directed, wrote, planned out. Don't forget the importance of a directorial lens in context and interpretation. When we talk about incest (or if you prefer for pinpoint accuracy, incestuous themes) in SAO we're not just talking about the relationship between characters, but also the general treatment and presentation of the relationship to the viewers. And it's here that most viewers find their objections.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I wouldn't classify IGPX as 'soul crushingly boring' by any means. Season 1 gets off to a slow start until around episode 6; Season 2 is good throughout except for Takashi's emo phase after getting dumped. The races are generally hype and the music is top notch. I thought the characters were interesting and really liked seeing Team Satomi grow from being unproven rookies to two time defending champions.
Clone Wars sucks.
Clone Wars sucks.
BassForever
Member
Takeshi being a bitch hurts igpx through its whole run, s2 is miles better then s1, though I do feel s1 had a better finale then s2. Beating spike and velstine was more satisfying then beating the cheater rookies
Doctor Decimate
Member
I was pretty bored with most of the IGPX characters that weren't Andrei because Andrei was awesome. The second season seemed to focus more on the races than the characters so I thought that was better.
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