Gucci Messiah
Banned
Fan service is annoying when it's overdone and shoved in your face
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Toonami |Jan15| Sold Our Car for Gas Money
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Because it is shallow and typically serves no purpose except to titillate. Most of the time it's almost like breaking the 4th wall because it doesn't actually fit in with anything. Breaks immersion and believability.
This, and it wastes time and adds awkwardness (depending where you're watching it, I guess....) when it's unneeded.
But there's fanservice all over the place in most modern mediums. Do people complain about it when Thor will take off his shirt and such or when Jessica Rabbit appears or when they cast a sexy lady to play a certain character or a sexy man. Hell Twilight is literally fanservice in a movie and really, the least of its problems is the fact that it has men with awesome chests.
It's a silly animation, it would feel out of place in a serious piece of art or in something that is trying to push really intense emotions out of you. At the end of the day, it's similar to the most other things that can be listed under "fanservice" such as being overly gory, having a character make references to things done in past episodes for a joke and other such things.
The least of the problems in Kill La Kill was the fanservice anyway, idk why people give a shit so much about it.
Doctor Decimate
Member
I think the difference is that anime "fanservice" comes off as a lot more in-your-face than live action. It's frequently more exaggerated and makes every effort to call attention to itself.
BassForever
Member
It's really only like SAO in that the basic set up is "people trapped in an MMO" other then that they're nothing alike.
just like how everything is generally in your face in animation, especially in a show like Kill La Kill.
Did you feel weird about the scene in 16 candles where the girl sees a naked high school girl? Or many of the other high school movies that show gratuitous flesh of both the male and female actors who are supposed to be high school aged people.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I agree with this. The main reason I cringed so hard at the fanservice in KLK is because we're looking at the sexualization of high school kids. I'm a heterosexual male who loves the opposite sex but I get uncomfortable seeing ass/boob shots of a minor; that's just something that really rubs me the wrong way. There's also a scene that poorly handles
sexual abuse
.Hack is SAO but done very average
Never seen 16 candle, the only films I seen with high school stuff are dumb horror movie.
BassForever
Member
You guys do realize that fan service of teenage characters are usually in things designed for a teenage audience correct? Just because we still like these things as adults does not make us the primary audience for it.
How have you gone through life never seeing 16 Candles... YOU GOT SOPPME HOMEWORK TO DO
There's so many American High School movies out there that do feature sexualized characters. Hell, Totally Spies was watched by me because I was a confused young boy who didnt comprehend why I was watching Totally Spies.
Doctor Decimate
Member
well yeah. but the point is with normal live-action "fanservice", unless it's really gratuitous you can put it in the back of your mind very easily. that's kind of impossible with a lot of anime.
I think I had a similar experience watching Tokyo Mew Mew on Fox when I was about 13. I thought it was stupid BUT DAMN IT I KEPT WATCHING FOR SOME REASON.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
So because this was intended for a teenage audience I can't comment on it with a critical eye as an adult? Does that suddenly make my criticism less valid for some reason? It doesn't matter who the intended audience was in Japan; I'm looking at this from the cultural perspective of an American which is fine considering this is going to air on ADULT swim.
Doctor Decimate
Member
this is always a weird defense because it basically says it's totally fine for grown-ass men to draw sexy pictures of teenage girls because they intend for most of their audience to be teenagers.
And I'm not trying to sit her and imply that fanservice is someghow good or a show can be carried by fanservice alone. Hell, there's plenty of animus that are literally fanservice. What makes them bad isnt the fanservice, it's the fact that they are bad narratives and badly designed stories. The fanservice purely exists because the other parts are so poorly thought out.
There's nothing in Kill La Kill that ever takes away from the plot or the characters. The shots and such are fairly innocuous especially considering that they are wearing nothing.The fanservice in itself is the character design, which really might not be to your liking. I think the suits look really badass personally, and honestly never felt one smudgeon of boner pop up in me during the entire show. In fact, since it's so in your face about it, it just feels normal and a part of the universe.
The target audience for Adult Swim is 13-18 year olds. It's why they have Epiduo commercials on
Also, while it's fine to put your own idea on it, you also have to realize that the narrative that you might want might not come from something that isnt supposed to appeal to you. I think wonderful pieces of art can flourish from things meant for children, and it's something people will constantly try to do, but do be aware that this stuff generally wasnt made for you, and the things you are looking for, might be available in things that are made to appeal to you. You have a skewed perspective that another viewer might not understand or might not be relevant to the target audience.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Well, I was mostly responding to the whole "it's okay in these other contexts, but not in anime" part. I can't really make a judgement on Kill la Kill yet, just pointing out the reasoning for why it's considered so much more of an issue
it's definitely up their in the pantheon of stuff that was probably designed by people who were sneaking their own personal... stuff into animation
Bruce Timm for example is probably one of the best pinup artists ever and it's kind of hilarious that he's also probably one of the best showrunners western animation's ever had
And really the only reason why it's s "prevelant" is because it's essentially airs at Japans midnight and is basically their soft core pornography. We notice it because we dont notice generic shounen anime #42 because it's not different to us, but that stuff is different to us and gets paired together with "anime"
It's like watching Mr Pickles and saying that because Mr Pickles is filled with awful gross outs and is not good, that all animation is like that. It's a show made for a niche audience that watches that thing specifically.
I just dont want the drive by moral police coming in. I think there can be a discussion that can be had, and one of my favorite things about Toonami Gaf is that no one is on the high horse here other then very rare occurrences. Gucci and I have very different opinions but we both keep a level head about said opinions and treat eachother well. It's one of the issues I have generally with Neogaf is that people are always on a high horse constantly anhd it's why I hardly venture outside this thread.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I swear Man God is just a clone of me trying to take over and eventually assume my personality. First there was the Bleach love out of nowhere and now a Totally Spies S/O. What's next, the revelation that Code Lyoko is a favorite of his??
CODE LYOKO is kinda shitty. I'm sorry. I love the premise but the show is kinda sorta unwatchable, though i was aged out of it.
Then again I thought Hamtaro was cute and funny and that aired right around then...
Code Lyoko is literally one of the worst shows Ive ever seen
I wasnt surprised that the french made an anime where the main characters were completely useless
Hamtaro was also one of those shows I dared not let anyone know i watched, but man it was fucking adorable and I loved it.
Code Lyoko was also Miguzi and Hamtaro was Toonami, but Hamtaro was late Toonami and was a sign of things to come for the future.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
[x] Divisive
[x] Over-hyped
[x] Formulaic
[x] Similar to a previous work by the creator
[x] Visually impressive yet held back by budget/time constraints
I think the issue with Kill La Kill is that it just wasnt very well done. I think a lot of people blamed the fanservice for it being bad as opposed to it just having
kind of shitty character developement, a bad main character, a story that changes at the blink of an eye, and a horrid ending.
At least you don't have to pay 60 bucks to watch it legally anymore
Honestly, I have objections about the anime which I will get into as it airs but it is going to be a fun group watch and we haven't had one of those in ages.
I will do a full write up on fanservice later.
Doctor Decimate
Member
I'm not sure how this really relates to what I was saying
*Whip Sound Effect*
it's prevelant in japanese animes because there's a lot of shitty animus that get made for the sole purpose of being soft core porn and to sell figurines. It's more common then in American cartoons but I feel that's more due to America's awful idea on sexuality and sex rather then it being bad or awful.
This is something that has been bugging me from a logic perspective is why people are upset and go "oh god that fictional character is 16, that fanservice is disgusting" as long as the setting is fantastical enough. It's obvious why this can be gross and problematic for real life individuals (especially if it goes anything beyond just attraction) but when it comes to a lot of anime, the age seems less relevant. Like take a look at these characters:
Both are under eighteen according to official ages given. Do either of those look like ANYBODY you knew back in high school? Certainly not the high school I went to. Many anime characters fall in this range in which they are in their late teens but don't really look or act like any actual human teenager. To those who saw KLK, if Ryuko and Satsuki were aged 5+ years would that certainly have made the show ok to you? Their ages seemed irrelevant in my mind and if they were older, the parts of KLK I did find uncomfortable (Gucci alluded to one) would have been equally as uncomfortable to me.
I mean I do personally do find it frustrating that so many anime protagonists/antagonists are stuck in their late teens and early twenties - expanding the age range would do wonders in the type of stores that could be told and how the characters could be written. While I recognize that is because of the target demos of most of these products I would love to see a general increase in age of many anime characters. However, many anime/cartoon teenagers don't really look anything like human teenagers. As such, that knee-jerk "but they're minors" disgust that makes total sense in real life seems oddly applied to some anime. Does that make sense to anybody? I'm certainly not try to be an apologist for anybody or anything but it feels like there are so many legit reasons to be upset over sexual fanserivce (framing & male gaze, poorly used humor, how it can rob the characters of agency if misapplied, creepy voyeurism,etc.) that harping over their age when they don't look or act like actual sixteen year-olds seems weird to me :/
This here is the most important thing. Not all fanservice of the sexual variety is created the same. Some shows frame it and display it in a way that I personally find legitimately disgusting, aggravating or eye-roll inducing. Some shows frame it in such a way that I can easily ignore or I can appreciate it. I don't really find much use in approaching the subject in a broad manner. A show by show basis is really the only way to approach the subject. I will say though, while a show that just has some, even a good deal, of sexual fanservice can be quite good in legitimate respects, a show whose primarily or only purpose is to peddle fanservice is rarely good :/
Both are under eighteen according to official ages given. Do either of those look like ANYBODY you knew back in high school? Certainly not the high school I went to. Many anime characters fall in this range in which they are in their late teens but don't really look or act like any actual human teenager. To those who saw KLK, if Ryuko and Satsuki were aged 5+ years would that certainly have made the show ok to you? Their ages seemed irrelevant in my mind and if they were older, the parts of KLK I did find uncomfortable (Gucci alluded to one) would have been equally as uncomfortable to me.
I mean I do personally do find it frustrating that so many anime protagonists/antagonists are stuck in their late teens and early twenties - expanding the age range would do wonders in the type of stores that could be told and how the characters could be written. While I recognize that is because of the target demos of most of these products I would love to see a general increase in age of many anime characters. However, many anime/cartoon teenagers don't really look anything like human teenagers. As such, that knee-jerk "but they're minors" disgust that makes total sense in real life seems oddly applied to some anime. Does that make sense to anybody? I'm certainly not try to be an apologist for anybody or anything but it feels like there are so many legit reasons to be upset over sexual fanserivce (framing & male gaze, poorly used humor, how it can rob the characters of agency if misapplied, creepy voyeurism,etc.) that harping over their age when they don't look or act like actual sixteen year-olds seems weird to me :/
This here is the most important thing. Not all fanservice of the sexual variety is created the same. Some shows frame it and display it in a way that I personally find legitimately disgusting, aggravating or eye-roll inducing. Some shows frame it in such a way that I can easily ignore or I can appreciate it. I don't really find much use in approaching the subject in a broad manner. A show by show basis is really the only way to approach the subject. I will say though, while a show that just has some, even a good deal, of sexual fanservice can be quite good in legitimate respects, a show whose primarily or only purpose is to peddle fanservice is rarely good :/
Code Geass S2 might be my favorite example of one of the key differences in how Japan and the US air their shows.
Season 2 moved to a more young teen friendly time slot so they lowered the violence slightly. Makes sense and might be a move made in the US. To replace that though they added in about ten random butt shots an episode. (Also Pizza Hut, but that was about making that dough.)
Season 2 moved to a more young teen friendly time slot so they lowered the violence slightly. Makes sense and might be a move made in the US. To replace that though they added in about ten random butt shots an episode. (Also Pizza Hut, but that was about making that dough.)
Crash Station
Member
Fanservice can have purpose. Just watch Me!Me!Me!
Outside of that, I can easily ignore it if I like other stuff in the work. No Game No Life is a great series, but it has some damn questionable fanservice at points.
Outside of that, I can easily ignore it if I like other stuff in the work. No Game No Life is a great series, but it has some damn questionable fanservice at points.
Is that why we got an episode where the girl is pushed into a vat of tomatoes because if so WORTH IT!
It's funny you point that out since it is actually a rather damning look at otaku culture and fanservice.
I respect your opinion Jarate but I would disagree in that I found the show quite enjoyable through to the end. For me, it's got a lot fun characters worth rooting for, some cool music, some slick visuals and some pretty hype moments. It's fast paced and it's funny.
I'd wager that in a month or two we won't even be discussing the outfits anymore. At least, that's what happened in the official KLK thread when the show was airing in Japan.
I'd wager that in a month or two we won't even be discussing the outfits anymore. At least, that's what happened in the official KLK thread when the show was airing in Japan.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
That's crazy how we frown upon the sexualization of minors, both male and female, right? Seriously though, if we were dealing with adult characters then the fanservice wouldn't be as big of an issue in my opinion. Instead we have a show featuring teens in pervy outfits created by a grown ass man. In Japan that flies because they have different cultural/societal norms and expectations when it comes to age appropriate material but in America the same thing comes off as creepy and weird. I think there's a discussion to had about why Americans tend to be more conservative when it comes to nudity as opposed to violence but I have little to no tolerance for the depiction of minors in a sexual manor, both fictional and real. This ties into why I dislike loli-anime (or whatever you call it) and was so grossed out by SAO rape scene(s). Not only was the subject manner handled irresponsibly but it served no purpose other than to say 'hey, this guy is bad in case you couldn't tell already.'
I find it worse when western action shows feature "dumbed down" action and things where the character cant shoot guns or the gun is useless and they cant actually use swords or cut people or anything. It makes the entire universe seem really weak and pathetic and presents hardly any risk to the viewer.
I hate it when shows feature lazer guns that do nothing and present no danger to try and shield kids away from "bad stuff" likie guns, yet we can take our kids to the shooting range and that's fine!
Samurai Jack is a worse show because Jack never fights or kills a human. It was severely limited to random robots that Aku I guess created.
I honestly find that worse then gratuitous ass shots
Cartoon Minors.
Ryuko is 17 anyway. And really, the reason why it's bad to have sex with teens that old is consent issues, not with any physical issues. Most girls that age are fairly well developed. Loli is much different anyway, as that deals with pre-pubescent girls rather then High School aged girls.
Hell, American culture sexualized Selena Gomez and shit before she was 18.
But I thought 18 was considered an adult.
Edit: Ah, Ryoko's 17. Thought she was 18, same as Satsuki. Carry on.
I don't mind Jack so much because it was clear from the get go they were aiming super duper young with that one.
My favorite example of dumbed down weaponry ever has got to be G.I. Joe. Specifically an episode where Cobra found out about a research lab that revived dinosaurs and wanted to use them as a front line force by brainwashing them. The Joes reverse the brainwashing at the last moment and the dinosaurs turn against the cobras...who proceed to shoot their LASER RIFLES at them which bounce off harmlessly. Dinosaurs are LASER PROOF. Why not build everything out of dinosaur? A bullet would work on a dinosaur, they are just scales, muscle, bone. But a LASER RIFLE? Shit bounces right off.
My favorite example of dumbed down weaponry ever has got to be G.I. Joe. Specifically an episode where Cobra found out about a research lab that revived dinosaurs and wanted to use them as a front line force by brainwashing them. The Joes reverse the brainwashing at the last moment and the dinosaurs turn against the cobras...who proceed to shoot their LASER RIFLES at them which bounce off harmlessly. Dinosaurs are LASER PROOF. Why not build everything out of dinosaur? A bullet would work on a dinosaur, they are just scales, muscle, bone. But a LASER RIFLE? Shit bounces right off.
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