While Bebop technically has about the same or fewer plot episodes they get so much more done in them. Champloo needs about two or three more plot centered episodes to tell its story I think.
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Toonami |JunJul16| You Thought It Was Dragon Ball Super, But It Was ME, DIO!
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While Bebop technically has about the same or fewer plot episodes they get so much more done in them. Champloo needs about two or three more plot centered episodes to tell its story I think.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Again, does that mean we shouldn't at least talk about what it would mean to have more options for Link's appearance? Because I don't have an issue with the lack of that option here, but I'm also not convinced by a single one of the arguments I've seen against it. Aonuma has addressed the gender thing before, I suspect Linkle exists due to this very question (I may have development timetables hopelessly confused there, I admit), and frankly his line of reasoning boils down to just "well this is a guy thing."
Yeah, in a way, it does breathe life into these characters. I'm not saying it's completely unnecessary, and while I do enjoy a little bit of story mode, it's not my top priority to want to know what happens. I find myself drawn to matchups and stuff happening and what I can learn from watching high level play.
Just throw Tiger Shots and win a match with Kazumi's Tiger Uppercut! DOH-HOHOHO!
You were waiting for that.
I agree wholeheartedly. Shampoo also had some weird issues with characters sometimes acting differently depending on the arc.
No, his line of reasoning is that he wanted the mainline Zelda game, the ones that all have had the same basic structure to star Link, one of the most beloved characters ever made and one of the most recognized characters ever made. i don't think you guys would understand the shit storm from normies if they fucked with Link at all. You think this stuff is bad, well howdy, do i got news for you
And im not against the discussion being made, but the discussion should be, "well I really hope they put it into the next game" rather then trying to actively demand that the current one be changed. There's also the issue I talked about earlier when i said these forums posts are getting worse. Most of this is just an emotional hot take response which is the worst type of response to have. And honestly, it's embarrassing to see that thread get to such a stage.
I can't do 3d fighters at all for some reason. Everything feels weird about them. But at the same time, I really want to get into Tekkens ludicrous story.
Y'know, if Nintendo put a female Link into a game, I'd expect them to have to give her "Nintendo Polish". The person to be saved would have to change, the races of the faeries and side characters would have to change, and people would have to treat the character differently based on their own histories and viewpoints.
I'd love to see Zelda playable in such a game. But I can see why mainline Zelda is sold on the idea of this being a male Link's Adventures. I don't really want Nintendo making stuff just because somewhere in the world thinks it's cool. I want them to make changes that their devs understand, and therefore can throw their full creativity behind.
I really think it feels cheap when people insert a change just to shut up an audience, or to appeal to them. I'm all about characters and designs that feel like the designers are as amped for them as I am. That's one reason I love KoF's designs: I always feel like each character is someone on the team's FAVORITE character; there's so much love in the designs, voicework, and personality. Games where such things are afterthoughts (like minimalist games with "programmer art" boxes and environments) don't work for me, because they're basically making sport and undermining something I personally love in my experiences.
Wait, Sagat is a guest in T7 too?! XD
I honestly always loved the "infinite playability" fighters offer. It's why I have even less issue paying releasea-day money for them compared to most other games. And unlike most "story only" games, the fact your plot is going to be uploaded to youtube, doesn't really lessen the value of the purchase. The gameplay is worth SO much more than what you pay, if you're a real fan of the game.
I used to think it was funny that I got enough matches out of Soul Calibur on Dreamcast, that I'd probably have bankrupted my family if I played similar amounts of fights in arcades. I got my quarters worth out of the game inhours days, everything after that was just gravy.
I'd love to see Zelda playable in such a game. But I can see why mainline Zelda is sold on the idea of this being a male Link's Adventures. I don't really want Nintendo making stuff just because somewhere in the world thinks it's cool. I want them to make changes that their devs understand, and therefore can throw their full creativity behind.
I really think it feels cheap when people insert a change just to shut up an audience, or to appeal to them. I'm all about characters and designs that feel like the designers are as amped for them as I am. That's one reason I love KoF's designs: I always feel like each character is someone on the team's FAVORITE character; there's so much love in the designs, voicework, and personality. Games where such things are afterthoughts (like minimalist games with "programmer art" boxes and environments) don't work for me, because they're basically making sport and undermining something I personally love in my experiences.
Wait, Sagat is a guest in T7 too?! XD
I honestly always loved the "infinite playability" fighters offer. It's why I have even less issue paying releasea-day money for them compared to most other games. And unlike most "story only" games, the fact your plot is going to be uploaded to youtube, doesn't really lessen the value of the purchase. The gameplay is worth SO much more than what you pay, if you're a real fan of the game.
I used to think it was funny that I got enough matches out of Soul Calibur on Dreamcast, that I'd probably have bankrupted my family if I played similar amounts of fights in arcades. I got my quarters worth out of the game in
Doctor Decimate
Member
His first reason was that Link would have nothing to do in a game starring Zelda, which is weird because it implies that the "doing nothing" role previously assigned to the female Zelda could not also be assigned to the male Link. His second reason is that the Triforce would be unbalanced with two women. And even if we buy his nonexistent reasoning for that, there's nothing really stopping him from making Zelda a dude. These are not good reasons, man.
Furthermore, the "same basic structure" argument shouldn't really apply to the game that is doing everything it can to get rid of that same basic structure. And I don't really see too much of a shitstorm over a gender toggle beyond the usual Gamergate crowd, and who gives a shit what they think?
I do think the discussion became a total shitshow, yeah, but the core idea is pretty sound and still worth going over in some capacity. It just needs to evolve into "maybe this would be cool if" or "the opportunity exists for this" instead of "do what i want or fuck you"
the triforce thing was stupid tbh, and I already told you LoZ is Link to people, you feature a prominent role for Zelda, and people outside of GG will be very upset that they arent playing as Link. it has nothing to do with an invisible boogieman, these are people I interact with heavily who would be majorly upset if the new LoZ didnt feature Link being the MC all the time. I think those people are solly, but you are underestimating how much people love Link
I already said that im fine with the discussion happening, but it's still pretty embarrassing tbh. Especially in its current form. there are so many other things to worry about in the gaming world, and honestly, this just reeks of people looking to complain about stuff. I dont think there's anything Nintendo couldve done that would please everyone. People came in looking for blood when we should all be excited that a brand new awesome looking game is coming out.
I already said that im fine with the discussion happening, but it's still pretty embarrassing tbh. Especially in its current form. there are so many other things to worry about in the gaming world, and honestly, this just reeks of people looking to complain about stuff. I dont think there's anything Nintendo couldve done that would please everyone. People came in looking for blood when we should all be excited that a brand new awesome looking game is coming out.
Is this suppose to be ok? Just not only acknowledge such a possibility but to accept it? To not fight "boys hogging all the fun'? This isn't even about sides or directions but Aonuma's comments seem to indicate an failure of acknowledging a changing medium and fan base.
I took it to mean "If the Triforce of Wisdom can fight for itself, what would the Triforce of Power be needed for?"
The only problem I have with the "unbalanced" Comment is that Bishonen Link is already pretty girly... So there's already a feeling of too much Yin and not enough Yang, possibly.
If the noise being made now is remembered, I'm sure they'll have something interesting next Zelda.
Hellwarden
Member
Give me a Linkle game.
That's what I want.
That's what I want.
Doctor Decimate
Member
While I do understand why some view this as the traditional "boy's adventure" deal, the concept of a female Link is based around the idea that there isn't actually a gendered adventure; a girl can still rescue the princess. Now if the developers just don't want to do it, that's a different story, but is that the case? We don't know.
Then again, why not a toggle? If not male and female Link, then what about just choosing between Link and Zelda?
There are also plenty of people who immediately leap to impassioned defense because they seem to believe bringing up an issue with gender or race representation is to unveil some evil behind the thing they like; you can't just put this on the people who were, yes, unnecessarily combative from the outset.
Which goes back to the question of why whoever holds the Triforce of Courage is inherently male
I think ot's just as reasonable as wanting a female link. I dont think there's stopping any women from playing as link, just like nothing is stopping me from playing the many games starring women characters. TBH, there's no hidden sexist agenda, because there's nothing inherently wrong with creating something that the artist wants to make. Honestly, it seems pretty petty that a women couldnt play as an androgynous elf boy who doesnt talk because the character isnt a female.
Ive already explained this a ludicrous amount of times, they dont want to make a female link option due to lore implications, story implications and many other things, if they were going to make a female focused game, they would want it to star Zelda. But for many people, LoZ is playing Link, and you dont want to limit Links exposure for that game. Instead, theyd rather make a "new ip" starring Zelda
maybe he worded what he said wrong, but remember, this is a japanese man being asked a random question which is then translated from japanese to english in a very short time.
honestly, im done explaining what Aonuma said, since no one seems to care to listen, and id rather not shit up the thread anymore with this since its not Toomami related at all. I will say this though, the game looks ridiculously well done. It's a shame the only discussion we can have on this site is about a poorly worded quote from a non english speaker right now.
No, I meant two bans in the NFL thread today, though it's obvious where it came from given this morning.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Actually, I feel like a lot less people have been banned this year compared to years past. Fairly calm E3 for the most part.
Hellwarden
Member
The boards didn't melt completely either.
I just don't think they see a point for it. I think it's clear it's a bit of a gendered adventure for them. Who wants to play female Link, just because they look different? They'd want female Link to exist for reasons relating to the different gender, and what that brings to the table.
That's what I was saying about Nintendo Polish. Even the Pokémon games changed rivals and such for different genders, right? Link's adventures honestly make more of him as a character than even the Pokémon games, so I'd think they'd need to do even more work to get it to where they'd like it.
Isn't that whole concept of Yin / Yang? Masculine and Feminine features don't share the same reasoning. This isn't to say a girl can't be courageous, but a girl's form of courage would embody different things than a males.
You can see that so much in Asian entertainment; in the way women will often use weapons in fights, and not be shamed for it, or how often "sneaky" traits will be given to women, compared to men. Heck, the way women frame comments and responses are even different. Instead of thinking "Aonuma's silly for having this BS answer", I think the comments just reveal their way of thinking, and how they see the situation, and even the world.
UltraGunner
Banned
E3 recap:
Horizon looks dope
Zelda is masterclass
Every dad is now required to have a beard
Sony told all their studios to just make TLOU
No Evil Within or Wolfenstein is a shame
Dishonored 2 with Stephen Russell voicing Corvo is an awesome Theif throwback
Ubisoft has finally balanced appropriate levels of cringe that I can enjoy
I'm still pissed that Resident Evil became uber serious youtuber bait
I'll never understand people wanting Crash back. You're childhood is over already
All in all an okay E3
Horizon looks dope
Zelda is masterclass
Every dad is now required to have a beard
Sony told all their studios to just make TLOU
No Evil Within or Wolfenstein is a shame
Dishonored 2 with Stephen Russell voicing Corvo is an awesome Theif throwback
Ubisoft has finally balanced appropriate levels of cringe that I can enjoy
I'm still pissed that Resident Evil became uber serious youtuber bait
I'll never understand people wanting Crash back. You're childhood is over already
All in all an okay E3
Cornbread78
Member
You forgot to mention more SAO is coming in the spring, lol.
The only PS4 or XBONE non independent game that impressed me?
Call of Duty. I figured out what it was pretty quickly but it still looked more fun than any of the other gruesome murder kill death sims out there.
I loved both of the big presentations yesterday...just not a lot of the games. Sony making two different TLOU clones but worse is fascinating, especially considering how samey they looked. This is like the time they tried making two separate kart racers, only weirder as they are aping their own product.
Call of Duty. I figured out what it was pretty quickly but it still looked more fun than any of the other gruesome murder kill death sims out there.
I loved both of the big presentations yesterday...just not a lot of the games. Sony making two different TLOU clones but worse is fascinating, especially considering how samey they looked. This is like the time they tried making two separate kart racers, only weirder as they are aping their own product.
Doctor Decimate
Member
And yet their concern was not with being able to create an adventure with Zelda, but with still giving Link something to do. So we can sit here all day and speculate about what they maybe could have possibly actually meant between the lines, but that's not going to get anyone anywhere until they come out and say it (if they ever do). The real question is if, through our interpretation, does it have to be a gendered adventure? (And there's a pretty big distinction that I wish people would understand between "have to" and "should" here).
I also think there are plenty of people who absolutely appreciate a character based on something as simple as just their appearance, and the idea that the option shouldn't even exist unless it meets certain specifications is weird. Like, what negative impact does that actually even have? I'm not gonna get up in arms if games get better about letting me play as an Asian dude just because they don't have dragons and samurai swords to go along with it most of the time.
*sees image of the zoomed out Zelda map*
Nintendo, stop. My penis can only get so erect
Nintendo, stop. My penis can only get so erect
Cornbread78
Member
C'Mon now. Star Ocean, Cosmic Star Heroine, FFXV, Persona 5, SAO, Neir2, Tales of Bersaria, Exist Archive... So much stuff. I'll even throw BF1 and/or CoD in that mix.
I'm looking forward to lots of games from this E3, but I don't feel like any have me INSTANT HYPED in a way. Like... there's enough I want before August already. I can't process "Dead Rising 4 is Dec 6th!" just yet.
When lacking a direct answer, one can only draw from history and context clues.
Does it have to be one? From their answers, I think it has to be for now, yeah. That's where they are, and I don't think they'd make a good "Link as girl" adventure if that's their mindset.
"Should" it be? Eh, I guess that's up to personal interpretation. For Nintendo? Definitely seems so. They seem to look at it in the same way, as say, someone asking "Why does Superman have to be a man?" You can tell a superman story without a man... but that's now it's own character and story, as Supergirl/woman. It's a new body of work, rather than just a gender option on the same story.
Sure people would appreciate it. But It's not weird that it shouldn't exist under certain creators or companies in certain ways. Not every company or group should just make everything because someone wants it. The very reason we have different groups and fan games and such, is because every creator isn't good at, or desires to, make everything.
Personally, as I stated earlier, everyone jumping onto a "Ohh, ooh, me too!" bandwagon is.. really boring, and look less like being nice with open-minded inclusion, and more like pandering to a demographic while it's hot.
I rarely like seeing "The Token Black guy" in a show, because they're based off the most generic ideal of what a black guy is like, 9 times out of 10. I totally despise how almost every black guy in a game is often the most vulgar-speaking character in a work, for example.
Can be negative to the creator, and to their goals. If I want to save my "Asian" character for a time when I can do them justice, throwing a flaccid version of them into a series before I get to do it right, diminishes the impact of the one I actually put time into later, and sets bad precedents that my better creation will be judged against.
When lacking a direct answer, one can only draw from history and context clues.
Does it have to be one? From their answers, I think it has to be for now, yeah. That's where they are, and I don't think they'd make a good "Link as girl" adventure if that's their mindset.
"Should" it be? Eh, I guess that's up to personal interpretation. For Nintendo? Definitely seems so. They seem to look at it in the same way, as say, someone asking "Why does Superman have to be a man?" You can tell a superman story without a man... but that's now it's own character and story, as Supergirl/woman. It's a new body of work, rather than just a gender option on the same story.
Sure people would appreciate it. But It's not weird that it shouldn't exist under certain creators or companies in certain ways. Not every company or group should just make everything because someone wants it. The very reason we have different groups and fan games and such, is because every creator isn't good at, or desires to, make everything.
Personally, as I stated earlier, everyone jumping onto a "Ohh, ooh, me too!" bandwagon is.. really boring, and look less like being nice with open-minded inclusion, and more like pandering to a demographic while it's hot.
I rarely like seeing "The Token Black guy" in a show, because they're based off the most generic ideal of what a black guy is like, 9 times out of 10. I totally despise how almost every black guy in a game is often the most vulgar-speaking character in a work, for example.
Can be negative to the creator, and to their goals. If I want to save my "Asian" character for a time when I can do them justice, throwing a flaccid version of them into a series before I get to do it right, diminishes the impact of the one I actually put time into later, and sets bad precedents that my better creation will be judged against.
Man, not only did Nintendo over deliver they gave us everything every open world game has ever promised us and more. They actually managed to over deliver on other people's promises!
Hellwarden
Member
I can't remember who it was, but I remember someone who was interested in the new dub of Escaflowne was also a bit put off about losing the original.
Well apparently Funimation's release will include the original and new dub in all versions.
Well apparently Funimation's release will include the original and new dub in all versions.
That's the thing. When Nintendo makes the effort, they can prove that they still got it.
Like Bethseda has to go back to the drawing board now because their usual early 90's gameplay with a fancy open world just ain't gonna cut it anymore. I mean, if you went to play Skyrim you'd have to mod it extensively for it to do even half of what Zelda does.
I had hope that'd happen when I played Dragon's Dogma. I also hoped shooters would finally have better enemies when Binary Domain showed how awesome multi-part, adaptive, multi-segmented enemies were.
Nothing from these became standard, lol. The Fallouts Skrims and such will still be praised for what they do, whether than change much or not... (TT_TT)
Doctor Decimate
Member
Which is then filtered through the subjective lens of the interpreter and the agenda of that interpreter, so we then only get anywhere if we agree on what the history and the context clues point to. Which we don't. So then it becomes a game of "I think they meant this" and "well I think they meant THIS" which then misses the entire point.
Case in point.
Nah, it's absolutely weird when you wanna tell other people what context you think it's okay for them to have the female characters they want. I also fail to see how inclusion is a bandwagon just because nobody goes and makes a unique experience for each race and gender; like, I struggle to think of a game whose story justifies being a bearded white dude and only a bearded white dude. Would it be great if games actually touched more on race and gender? Absolutely. But it's not a prerequisite for representing different races and genders in a game whose story is likely far from specific in that regard. Like, there's a WIDE difference between "creators only want to do this if they feel they can do it justice" and "I think they should only be inclusive if it meets my own standards."
Which, again, implies the simple act of representing another race or gender is "flaccid" unless you build something specific to them.
I just don't get the point of why it needs to go there. "Nintendo puts time into things, and doesn't half-ass things just to make people happy." is the gist of what I'm saying.
Your counterpoint is "even if they half-ass it, some people would appreciate it, because it's there."
I mean, that's fine, and true! But WHY would people expect half-ass work from a company that's known to full-ass things? XD I think many consumers piss themselves off by trying to pull solutions out of the people who don't even see a problem.
Once the people you're asking agree with your perspective, THAT'S when change happens. But before then, it's just like trying to squeeze lemon juice out of a chalkboard.
Nintendo can do that for their games... they're not obligated to include something their creative minds don't see the point in.
There's a Bethesda or an MMO that'll give them the type of characterization they want. Or even maybe a Pokémon or Custom Robo. My point was simply that it's clear to see that they don't think the request fits Zelda currently.
It's totally be weird if Nintendo told Bethesda the way they did things was wrong.
It's a bandwagon when people do it not because they CARE, but just to fill in a quota. Such as when new shows come out in a season, and everyone has the same minority / job mix character that was hot last season.
Many western games give loose characterizations and scenarios to facilitate create-a-characters. They'll even include things to reference this, like a character saying "Magnificent beard, my friend! You look like the perfect ____!" when you make choices that fit established cultures of the realm. The Japanese don't favor this as much as "we" do. It's why Final Fantasies and classic RPGs keep clear personality traits on even player avatars.
I appreciate that some people just like to have something that includes them. I was also trying to give an example how, even as a minority myself, I don't think inclusion for the sake of inclusion is good, and I actually despise it at times. My examples were not to say "only include gender when you build a world around them!" but to say "I love how Nintendo is considerate enough to only add options once they're committed to doing them right!"
You know I never said they should fit my standards, or that it was a prerequisite. I said it's obvious Nintendo has standards, and yes, Nintendo should only do it if they think what they can produce will end up fitting their standards.
And just to end this clearly, I'm not stating this as a personal rule. But Nintendo's quality over the years is derived from the fact they spend time developing things to degrees that other devs don't. Zelda today proves that.
So asking them to include a slight option just because is the wrong way to do things, if you take into account who you're talking to.
BassForever
Member
I find your lack of faith disturbing
Pls I leaked because it was all out there. It was just a ton of messages 'is this real' 'yes', because it was being said by the same guys who leaked the xbox slim on the spot, why wouldn't you believe them.
*tbf, GAF already posted everything. Just no one believed anyone.
Like I still have no idea why the "RDR was supposed to close sony" thread got locked, posters who said re7 was kitchen and all of MS had that in their list of dozens of true things and people still didn't believe it?
I was gonna say "wasn't that originally confirmed?" but turns out it would've been only bonus DVDs for the Collector's Edition, now it'll be for regular editions as well.
.........guys what if this new dub is the replacement for Champloo?
Could see this.
It could honestly be a strong candidate.
1.) DeMarco said they originally wanted it back in the '90s but Fox got it
2.) HD "director's cut"
3.) Updated dub
4.) Would help promote the re-release
5.) Could call it "uncut" or whatever considering how Fox handled the series.
Maybe not after Champloo since they JUST finished redubbing it, but maybe after Champloo's replacement.
1.) DeMarco said they originally wanted it back in the '90s but Fox got it
2.) HD "director's cut"
3.) Updated dub
4.) Would help promote the re-release
5.) Could call it "uncut" or whatever considering how Fox handled the series.
Maybe not after Champloo since they JUST finished redubbing it, but maybe after Champloo's replacement.
BassForever
Member
Yeah I'm hoping for escaflowne redub on toonami if now now then this fall
3. 3 part finale.
ShinRPGamer
Member
That was probably me. They also announced that the original dub will now be released on Blu-Ray.
I guess being able to watch the Ocean dub in HD is a good trade off from no longer getting it exclusively on the CE. On the other hand, I can't help but feel like this cheapens the CE somewhat since the CE now has less goodies over the regular editions.
Also that Samurai Jack promo.
BassForever
Member
Jack looks like shit
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