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Toonami |Mar14| No Time for Sissy Pig

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SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
You can do this without giving up 90% of the urgency the story or agency the characters had. Look at Hajime no Ippo as an example. The entire story is about the main character slowly growing and getting stronger, all while travelling down a road with a set goal. It never loses sight of said goal even when it diverges into training or other plot lines. Every step the story takes is about achieving that final goal for either the main character or the side characters.

I wonder if modern shonen writers just can't write by contemporary standards, or if they just don't care about them, or if they are purposely going out of the way to avoid some of those expectations, because that is their own brand of originality to age old plot-writing?

Full Metal Panic is actually a great comparison for Blue Exorcist. They both deal with dual plots. BE has the school plot and the supernatural revenge plot and FMP has the school plot along with a military/spy thriller.

FMP manages to interlace both of it's plots expertly, every action taken in either plot progresses the story in both. Sometimes in ways you wouldn't expect. BE on the other hand hasn't managed to do this. It lost all of it's agency and urgency the second they hit the school, while in FMP the agency and urgency remained. Even in moments when you'd think it wouldn't. They hit similar character points as well: the identity confusion, the idea of belonging, and so on. The difference is that FMP does them over entire seasons, not single episodes. Thereby earning the progression.

FMP:TSR was entirely about the idea of "where do I belong," a point that BE seemed to finish with after an episode. Everything in the entire season, in both plots, was built around answering that question for it's two main characters. It hit similar points as the single BE episode, but because they earned the cliches it hit much much harder and left a better memory.

My problem with BE isn't it's generic-ness, which it sort of is, but the fact it hasn't gone out of it's way to earn any of it's character progression. It dispatches what should be an over-arching plot line for the series in a single episode.

Most of these issues seem similar to SAO, and and they both seem to have large popularity regardless. In a world where people can't watch a full commericial without checking twitter or facebook, perhaps 15 minute resolutions, rather than "earned progression", and shifting plotpoints of strength into the background in order to build up characters, rather than interwoven, tight stories, are the expectations of the youth...

I would sacrifice Adventure Time, Regular Show, Uncle Grandpa, Gumball, Steven Universe, and every other current CN show for a renewal of SBT, Megas, and Samurai Jack.

No regrets.

Uncle Grandpa can DIAF... I actually like the rest in various degrees though. And I'd feel bad for the artist and creators getting their shows cancelled!

Most of CN's old Shows would actually just be better as AS / Toonami Originals now, or OVA / Movie type deals. Much like with the anime of today, I don't think people want the same thing from the cartoons of today... but those who still remember the classics want works that carry on the traditions and heights we've come to expect.

high school is in so many stories because while us westerners consider college and our early 20s to be the best time in our lives, the japanese considers highschool to be the best time in their lives, thats where most of your adventures and things take place before your thrust into the workforce as is japanese culture.
 

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I wonder if modern shonen writers just can't write by contemporary standards, or if they just don't care about them, or if they are purposely going out of the way to avoid some of those expectations, because that is their own brand of originality to age old plot-writing?



Most of these issues seem similar to SAO, and and they both seem to have large popularity regardless. In a world where people can't watch a full commericial without checking twitter or facebook, perhaps 15 minute resolutions, rather than "earned progression", and shifting plotpoints of strength into the background in order to build up characters, rather than interwoven, tight stories, are the expectations of the youth...



Uncle Grandpa can DIAF... I actually like the rest in various degrees though. And I'd feel bad for the artist and creators getting their shows cancelled!

Most of CN's old Shows would actually just be better as AS / Toonami Originals now, or OVA / Movie type deals. Much like with the anime of today, I don't think people want the same thing from the cartoons of today... but those who still remember the classics want works that carry on the traditions and heights we've come to expect.

yeesss? :D
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso

LoL, yeah, I think your own reply actually answers well enough, haha. But yeah, the way Japan treats Highschool / Middleschool the same way the west treats that Fresh in the Workforce / college lifestyle is something I think I've come to accept pretty simply now.

Before, I'm sure I'd be "OH, NOT AGAIN!", but now it's just like ".... so Sailor Fukus. I wonder what this schools style will look like. I don't care what the men are wearing."

#StraightToImportant #Legz

This all reminds me of a conversation I had afterschool with a dearly departed friend, where we came up with the #fact that women have LEGS, and guys just have... stumps. Or something else of non-significant, not-worth-mentioning caliber. Women who like the UPS men shorts are free to disagree.
 
I feel there is a bit of a disconnect between those of us who have seen this story arc of one piece and those are seeing it for the first time. If this arc was a puzzle I'd say first time viewers have at most 10% of the puzzle with no picture of how it comes together which leads to frustration when those of us who know how the puzzle looks and are freaking out every week. This arc like the chimera ant arc in hxh are arcs that are more enjoyable on a rewatch because you can see all the set up and foreshadowing and knows where it goes.

Also about Bleach, as I've said before in a bubble any Bleach (canon) fight is largely enjoyable, Bleach's two major flaws are that it has far too many fights and gives long fights to characters the audience simply doesn't care that much about. Thinking back to the arracar arc most of the cool arracar fight the imo lame soul reapers and most of the cool soup reapers fight the imo lame arracar.

I can accept shonen fights being shonen fights ie fight equally -> party a powers up -> party b powers up -> party a either loses or gets another power up and wins

But there needs to be a balance between powers explained before hand (like cp9's powers) powers being explained during the fight (like when nozomi had her first fight) and characters pulling out new powers out of nowhere (like sasori against konkoro). All 3 can work when does well and used in moderation, when you get predictable with these like Bleach and Fairy Tail can get its when you start to lose/bore people.
 

Levyne

Banned
I'd watch a cooking show about soup reapers tracking down unscrupulous cooks that bend traditional recipes to their whims for evil purposes and needing to be stopped.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
Ha
At first I thought the show was about a man with Mental health issues.

I could probably learn to appreciate the show if I wanted to, but it just seems... spazzy for the sake of spazzy. Steven Universe manages to be a modern kids toon, but also knows just when to pull back it's awkward and stupid to just flat out impress with animation, heart, music... SOMETHING. UnkaGanPa just feels like a mess of stupidity that tries to have heart (Awww, everyone loves grandpa, because he's so cool!), but can't stop being STUPID long enough to settle with real quality.

So.. yeah, when I see an Ep, I';ll pretend it's a show about a dying old man with mental issues, who is dreaming his final acts of awesome before dying a cold, lonely death...

thIoriLaugh.gif


But there needs to be a balance between powers explained before hand (like cp9's powers) powers being explained during the fight (like when nozomi had her first fight) and characters pulling out new powers out of nowhere (like sasori against konkoro). All 3 can work when does well and used in moderation, when you get predictable with these like Bleach and Fairy Tail can get its when you start to lose/bore people.

I wish shonen battles would spend the first few eps / a few min of each character reveal explaining things... and then just leave us to be amazed by whatever happens next, without explanation until either AFTER the battle is finished, or only from the hurried thoughts of the victim trying to piece together what happened.

Things would flow SO MUCH BETTER if some things were left more to speculation and growth, rather than methodical explanation and overly-verbose self-hype monologues.
 

Crocodile

Member
high school is in so many stories because while us westerners consider college and our early 20s to be the best time in our lives, the japanese considers highschool to be the best time in their lives, thats where most of your adventures and things take place before your thrust into the workforce as is japanese culture.

I don't think anybody who has followed the Japanese anime/manga market for any extended period of time isn't aware of that. That doesn't mean I don't want to roll my eyes into the back of my skull when I come across the 1000000000th anime/manga with a school setting. Not that you can't tell a good story there but given what's already been done you have to try extra hard to separate yourself from the pack and frankly most authors don't/can't.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
I'd watch a cooking show about soup reapers tracking down unscrupulous cooks that bend traditional recipes to their whims for evil purposes and needing to be stopped.

I wanted to see if this was a thing and Imagesearch gave me this
hisagicooking.jpg
 

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I don't think anybody who has followed the Japanese anime/manga market for any extended period of time isn't aware of that. That doesn't mean I don't want to roll my eyes into the back of my skull when I come across the 1000000000th anime/manga with a school setting. Not that you can't tell a good story there but given what's already been done you have to try extra hard to separate yourself from the pack and frankly most authors don't/can't.

I highly recommend medaka box to you guys, made by the same person who makes monogatari, its basically satire on the shonen genre, but it doesnt start out that way, infact I didnt know anything about it when I watched the anime, kinda put it on hold, then went back to it and found out that it was a shonen and got super serious for a sec.
If the main character seems like a mary sue, that is EXACTLY the point.
 

Crocodile

Member
I wish shonen battles would spend the first few eps / a few min of each character reveal explaining things... and then just leave us to be amazed by whatever happens next, without explanation until either AFTER the battle is finished, or only from the hurried thoughts of the victim trying to piece together what happened.

Things would flow SO MUCH BETTER if some things were left more to speculation and growth, rather than methodical explanation and overly-verbose self-hype monologues.

QQ to anyone, has there ever been a shonen battle that went like this -

Person A explains their "power" to Person B
Person B thinks they've figure out how to beat Person A based on this explanation
Person B goes on the offensive but get pwned
Person B is confused - "Why didn't that work? That 'power' doesn't work as explained"
Person A - "I'm your enemy dude, why did you believe me LOL? GET REKT!"
 
QQ to anyone, has there ever been a shonen battle that went like this -

Person A explains their "power" to Person B
Person B thinks they've figure out how to beat Person A based on this explanation
Person B goes on the offensive but get pwned
Person B is confused - "Why didn't that work? That 'power' doesn't work as explained"
Person A - "I'm your enemy dude, why did you believe me LOL? GET REKT!"

Aizen more or less does this during the fake war arc
 

Tamanon

Banned
QQ to anyone, has there ever been a shonen battle that went like this -

Person A explains their "power" to Person B
Person B thinks they've figure out how to beat Person A based on this explanation
Person B goes on the offensive but get pwned
Person B is confused - "Why didn't that work? That 'power' doesn't work as explained"
Person A - "I'm your enemy dude, why did you believe me LOL? GET REKT!"

I think the Aizen battles went like that for the most part.
 

MikeMyers

Member
QQ to anyone, has there ever been a shonen battle that went like this -

Person A explains their "power" to Person B
Person B thinks they've figure out how to beat Person A based on this explanation
Person B goes on the offensive but get pwned
Person B is confused - "Why didn't that work? That 'power' doesn't work as explained"
Person A - "I'm your enemy dude, why did you believe me LOL? GET REKT!"

Piccolo does this to Gohan in the Saiyan training arc too.
 

BatDan

Bane? Get them on board, I'll call it in.
Read a bit more of the Blue Exorcist manga.

The series gets good in the Kyoto arc. It culminates in a pretty good battle.
However, the series suffers from "Togashi Syndrome". There's incomplete artwork (mostly notably in Chapter 37). What confuses me is that this is a monthly series, where deadlines are much more lenient.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
QQ to anyone, has there ever been a shonen battle that went like this -

I'm sure you meant "Quick Question" but I read that as "Crying" because internet.

And... isn't that basically Aizen's M.O.? Feeding just enough info to lull his opponents into false states of security, and then exceeding their predictions, EVER SINGLE TIME, because he's dat gatlike?

Or Kenpachi's general "He's limited, he's so weak, his sword looks like crap..." game?
 
Or do you mean like character a lied about what their power did to bait character b into falling into his real trap? If so upcoming one piece spoilers for an arc 100ish episodes away
usopp vs perona is like this, usopp lies about what his power is and beats her with a gag weapon after baiting her with real ones
 

Crocodile

Member
Yeah thinking about it I guess Aizen works but it always felt more like an asspull rather than a person intentionally misleading their opponent to gain an advantage through said opponent applying the incorrect strategy. Maybe its just the way Kubo wrote it that makes me hesitant to say it fully counts. Does anyone have any other examples?
 
Yeah thinking about it I guess Aizen works but it always felt more like an asspull rather than a person intentionally misleading their opponent to gain an advantage through said opponent applying the incorrect strategy. Maybe its just the way Kubo wrote it that makes me hesitant to say it fully counts. Does anyone have any other examples?

Yeah my second example is what you're looking for, but its later in One Piece so either spoiler yourself or PLEASE BE EXCITED
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I wonder if modern shonen writers just can't write by contemporary standards, or if they just don't care about them, or if they are purposely going out of the way to avoid some of those expectations, because that is their own brand of originality to age old plot-writing?



Most of these issues seem similar to SAO, and and they both seem to have large popularity regardless. In a world where people can't watch a full commericial without checking twitter or facebook, perhaps 15 minute resolutions, rather than "earned progression", and shifting plotpoints of strength into the background in order to build up characters, rather than interwoven, tight stories, are the expectations of the youth...

I would argue that the popularity of SAO is more due to the fact it is a self-insert story set in a world that hasn't exactly been mined very heavily. Self-insert stories always do well, but rarely does that popularity stick around. Twilight for example pretty much vanished after the books ended, where something like Harry Potter, which does have it's problems but is still a fairly well put together story, managed to keep it's popularity.

Series like HxH and One Piece dwarf the rest of the Japanese market, both sell absolutely insane numbers compared to literally everything else. Nothing even comes close to One Piece numbers over there. So I'm not sure if your assessment is accurate.

As far as the American market goes, things like Breaking Bad and True Detective would disprove your thesis as well. They were both well thought out and well-written stories that earned every cliche they used. Especially True Detective, anyone who has seen the final episode knows the scene I am talking about.

When we get to the expectations of youth we have a problem. One the one hand we have Avatar, which was extremely popular and well put together, while on the other we have stuff like what CN has been doing for the last few years. That's a hard group to read in large part due to how the shows marketed to that group have been managed, a good example would be something like Sym-bionic Titan which had like three different time slots over the course of it's run and numerous breaks. So while we know that creative and well put together shows can have massive success, we don't have many examples due to how these shows are managed.
 
I think people understanding how Aizen power works , but he's one step ahead of them.

Aizen is truly just messing with them, only Ichigo who wasn't put under his hypnosis spell could actually fight him. If anyone with real strength had tried to fight Aizen the self inflicted damage would be 10x worse
 

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
I never liked Blue Exorcist. The visuals were pretty for sure but the story was so bland and generic that I couldn't get into it. I think the Aniplex slot will forever be doomed to fail.
 

Crocodile

Member
Yeah my second example is what you're looking for, but its later in One Piece so either spoiler yourself or PLEASE BE EXCITED

Though I'm not familiar with the fight you speak of, though I'm familiar with the aforementioned characters, I think that example fits. Recently I think the Jojo vs ACDC fight and perhaps even the Usopp vs Luffy fight fit this description too. This needs to happen more often; its so satisfying when pulled off well.
 

Crocodile

Member
Magi SAO 2 is coming believe

Fixed #Kappa

Shokugeki no Soma is better than all of the Big 3. The eventual anime will be amazing.

I remember Yakitate Japan being super hilarious but it got rather repetitive and I eventualy lost interest in it. How did that end (this is to anyone)? Does "Food Wars" avoid that pitfall and remain consistently good? From what I've heard, a lot of the appeal seems to stem from the lewd food reactions. Since they'll be toned down in any anime probably, would the series still hold up?
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
I would argue that the popularity of SAO is more due to the fact it is a self-insert story set in a world that hasn't exactly been mined very heavily. Self-insert stories always do well, but rarely does that popularity stick around. Twilight for example pretty much vanished after the books ended, where something like Harry Potter, which does have it's problems but is still a fairly well put together story, managed to keep it's popularity.

Series like HxH and One Piece dwarf the rest of the Japanese market, both sell absolutely insane numbers compared to literally everything else. Nothing even comes close to One Piece numbers over there. So I'm not sure if your assessment is accurate.

But SAO is getting a season 2! It'll be interesting to see what kind of legs it ends up having, but yeah, I agree it's probably more of a "one hit wonder" rather than a long-lasting classic, certainly.

HxH is weird for my example, as I'm talking more about new shows made by newer talent, that weren't popular in our previous awesome show Eras. Those people with the lessons from new and old works do a much better job at producing shows that have that crossover appeal and quality.

The more I see of OP, the more I actually dislike it's moment to moment story telling, but enjoy it's overall scope. I really think the show shines best in games and merchandising due to this, because the focused, cleaned up stuff does so much more right for me.

As far as the American market goes, things like Breaking Bad and True Detective would disprove your thesis as well. They were both well thought out and well-written stories that earned every cliche they used. Especially True Detective, anyone who has seen the final episode knows the scene I am talking about.

I know little about either, but yeah, I'm mostly talking about youth who grew up in this time, and the industry pros who are closer in age to their young target audiences.

When we get to the expectations of youth we have a problem. One the one hand we have Avatar, which was extremely popular and well put together, while on the other we have stuff like what CN has been doing for the last few years. That's a hard group to read in large part due to how the shows marketed to that group have been managed, a good example would be something like Sym-bionic Titan which had like three different time slots over the course of it's run and numerous breaks. So while we know that creative and well put together shows can have massive success, we don't have many examples due to how these shows are managed.

I just get the feeling that the youth generally doesn't hold as much contempt for things that many of us just hate. For a variety of factors, such as:
  • Young parents that like similar things to their children, thus avoiding the old "2 far-separated generations" trend of old
  • A wider range of stories to choose from
  • Wider acceptance and access to works of different nations and people
  • Crap attention spans, spoilers galore for "free"
  • The fact a LOT of this stuff can be viewed for free, without placing money towards it itself.
There's just less reason to be a real demand on works, given such factors.

Haha, I think I myself was harder on BGC 2040 when I bought it on DVD years ago, while watching it just recently on Netflix, I didn't feel nearly as bad about it. Though it still is the lesser work compared to the original!
 

Zonic

Gives all the fucks
Shokugeki no Soma is better than all of the Big 3. The eventual anime will be amazing.
I cannot wait to see the even more detailed food & reactions.

Watch it be fucking SHAFT that does it and then we'll all be fucking pissed.
Not gonna lie, considering how stylized they can be, I wouldn't mind if it was Shaft, since I'm sure they'd go all out on making the food look amazing and having people express how great it is.

From what I've heard, a lot of the appeal seems to stem from the lewd food reactions. Since they'll be toned down in any anime probably, would the series still hold up?
They pretty much toned down the reactions lately. They still have them, but nowhere near as lewd as the series started.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Fixed #Kappa



I remember Yakitate Japan being super hilarious but it got rather repetitive and I eventualy lost interest in it. How did that end (this is to anyone)? Does "Food Wars" avoid that pitfall and remain consistently good? From what I've heard, a lot of the appeal seems to stem from the lewd food reactions. Since they'll be toned down in any anime probably, would the series still hold up?

They really cut down on the lewd reactions in the newest arc and focus more on character interaction. Now it's hot blooded kitchen competition.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
I'm now taking a hard stand like I've done for adaptations of other media and will no longer contrast new derivative work (i.e. filler) from the other canon work except in qualitative terms. Filler no longer exists. It's just a different take usually from different authors. If it sucks, it will suck on its own merits and if it is good it is good on its own merits.

I generally enjoy reading what Bass has to say on things and he takes the opposite approach and is too fixated on what the original author did or did not do. That's fine. He's right a good 90% of the time too, the formally named filler doesn't usually match up except in the usual exception of character driven comedy episodes which tend to be great because they relax the conventions of the source material and exaggerate various character flaws and personality traits for humor.

But I've decided that separate works no longer need to be shackled to their source material and it's unfair to judge them solely on that. Like a man once cryptically said last year, don't worry about filler.
 
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