BassForever
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Second this motion
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Toonami |Mar14| No Time for Sissy Pig
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Second this motion
UltraGunner
Banned
It's sort of like a VERY pretentious Casshern Sins
Doctor Decimate
Member
Doctor Decimate
Member
i have never seen Casshern Sins
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
A cure for insomnia.
BassForever
Member
So this is a pm I sent to mike about the difference between villains and antagonist, specifically why when I ranked my thoughts on the naruto villains why I didn't include Gaara, Neji, or
. I figured I'd share it here to get your guys thoughts.
Just a warning there are some spoilers for later naruto shippuden I will do my best to keep said spoilers to a minimum tagging any names or parts that I feel would ruin first time viewers enjoyment.
Any comments? Thoughts?
Itachi
Just a warning there are some spoilers for later naruto shippuden I will do my best to keep said spoilers to a minimum tagging any names or parts that I feel would ruin first time viewers enjoyment.
BassForever said:
Any comments? Thoughts?
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Banished looks like a really cool RTS, would be awesome if someone gifted it to me.
*stares at levyne*
Gaara did some truly villainous things and had quite a bit of responsibility for his actions until he got fixed by Ninja Jesus.
is arguably worse. The ends don't justify his means no matter how it turns out in the end. Being that deep under cover doesn't excuse
Dude is a villain.
You could use your same definition to excuse Orochimaru if you wanted to twist it.
Itachi
his acts of murder bordering on genocide.
You could use your same definition to excuse Orochimaru if you wanted to twist it.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Itachi
that majority of the uchiha clan was planning to userp the village and being a military govt, they can only usurp the only way they know how
I know all that. Doesn't excuse any of the shit he did after that though with the Akatsuki and just because that was the choice presented to you doesn't make you not a villain for going through with it.
Labels are always a little annoying because there will always be some element that stretches the 'definition'.
Generally I find 'antagonist' to be a more general term for any character who's motives are at odds with the protagonist (I guess this would be like Jintor's talk of 'roles') regardless of how moralistic that character is. A villain would be a character with either specifically immoral (evil) intentions or methods, and while they are typically antagonists I guess they don't have to be?
Generally I find 'antagonist' to be a more general term for any character who's motives are at odds with the protagonist (I guess this would be like Jintor's talk of 'roles') regardless of how moralistic that character is. A villain would be a character with either specifically immoral (evil) intentions or methods, and while they are typically antagonists I guess they don't have to be?
BassForever
Member
Yeah that's a good way to put it simply lol
I think that's why a lot of people call it a retcon and another sign of Kishi's poor planning/writing. Though I do ask what in canon did
itachi
Depending on point of view Light is the villain of death note but he is also the protagonist, same with Breaking Bad or any character in the GTA games. It often kind of depends on how the story is written and who the story follows. A series like song of fire and ice/game of thrones from what I've read/seen doesn't really have a villain and depending on the chapter the role of protagonist and antagonist switches around.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I feel once you reach that point you also have to remember that they're ninjas and that all of them have killed people mostly under orders, akatsuki
before the main plan was revealed and only 2 or 3 members even knew about it
The
'twist'
Sasuke and Itachi both died in a full out draw, but I guess the Sasue's popularity wouldn't let that happen
Helped kill
Gaara
I actually wouldn't consider it a retcon though as there was always some shocking mystery reason for him doing it. It comes off though as a marginally improved version of the SAO ending though.
This is true. Alex Delarge from A Clockwork Orange is a good example.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
That wouldnt make sense as a asspull
from the moment we find out about sasuke's backstory something like this was planned, afterall itachi wouldnt kill his entire family for no reason, unless he was just a bad guy or just pull the "he went crazy" card
BassForever
Member
But none of that makes him a villain though, if anything he's more an anti-hero "ends justify the means". Also in the situation you mentioned it's not like he had much choice, what else could he do in that situation?
tried to fight off all the other akatski and save gaara, even if he pulled it off he's be useless in being a mole
Dr.Palutena
Member
As man god says I am pretty sure both Gaara and
(do really need to spoiler their name?) do pretty villainous things regardless of overall intentions. Neji I would say is a more clearly defined non-villain antagonist .
Itachi
Well I did a google search, and found this.
**SPOILERS**
http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=49939563&postcount=1
BassForever
Member
I was because that characters role in the plot is still really mysterious as are all the akatski and I know a lot of people are watching Shippuden for the first time or haven't seen past a certain point.
It's funny how the tone shifts so drastically after the Chunin exams that you tend to forget that these kids are being raised to be killing machines. Of course
of the series tries to remind everyone of this
it never quite stuck.
Still I have no problem calling someone who murders
a villain even under orders. We also learn that the five families so to speak of the ninja world do in fact have a code of conduct and seemingly doesn't deal with that shit to sort of smooth out that idea.
the penultimate villain
so did Pain
Still I have no problem calling someone who murders
their family and other children
When do we learn about
Sasuke's backstory? I thought he revealed it straight away, but google searching seems to indicate it was revealed later when he fights Naruto?
It's not even all revealed then. Sasuke found something that day that doesn't get any sun shone on it until Shippuden.
It shows up on ads on Adult Swim every week around this time of night on Tuesday or Wednesday.
BassForever
Member
But other then to
sasuke
sasuke, itachi was the only villain he cared about
the ninja world is probably 100x safer with the uchiha wiped out, Itachi is the only one who didn't go bat shit crazy for petty reasons at any point in the plot
sauske is more of a villain then itachi
Even if we isolate part 1 Gaara is only really a "villain" for a very small portion of the plot, and even then he himself has no real reason to want to destroy the leaf, he's just really fucked up psychologically. Half of Gaara's screen time in part 1 he's a good guy saving Rock Lee's buns or he's another rival in the chunin exams. Add in part 2 where Gaara is completely a good guy and it really shrinks down any role of "villain" that I'd give him in the overall story. If Gaara had killed his own father and imitated him just so he'd have an excuse to kill people in the invasion arc then he'd be a villain no questions asked, as it stands he's really no more a villain then Konkoro or Temari during that arc.
The biggest issue with Naruto, and this is an issue with a lot of authors out there, is that Kishimoto is clearly making this shit up as he goes along.
Constant retcons, plot holes, plot contrivances, elements just not adding up or meshing together correctly, Kishi purposely delaying plot points for years to the point that people no longer care about them or have figured them out already so that when the reveal finally happens nobody gives a crap.
Constant retcons, plot holes, plot contrivances, elements just not adding up or meshing together correctly, Kishi purposely delaying plot points for years to the point that people no longer care about them or have figured them out already so that when the reveal finally happens nobody gives a crap.
Dr.Palutena
Member
oh man the
tobi/obito thing will go down as the most meandering boring obvious thing ever, or maybe naruto-4th hokage father/son thing
Dr.Palutena
Member
as something that never gets brought up, and was never confirmed until much later or said by anyone, it just feels like it took way too long to be confirmed
It still feels so odd how they dance around it for soooo long.
EDIT: Heck, I never even got as far as the actual 'reveal' of that plot point
It's basically a weird social experiment in how to raise a boy of destiny ala Harry Potter.
It still should have been put to him clear on paper by Jiraiya at the end of Part 1, if not the Fifth Hokage.
I just realized I've probably accidentally called Tsunade the fourth a few times in filler reviews. He's so easy to forget about when just covering stuff from part 1.
It still should have been put to him clear on paper by Jiraiya at the end of Part 1, if not the Fifth Hokage.
I just realized I've probably accidentally called Tsunade the fourth a few times in filler reviews. He's so easy to forget about when just covering stuff from part 1.
BassForever
Member
I imagine the 4th/dad thing is more like the laboon/upcoming one piece spoilers
in that it was planned early on but one of those things that the story never got around to showing the audience till way later.
The shippuden spoilers
thing on the other hand I feel is more a sign of poor planning
brook
The shippuden spoilers
tobi/obito
tobi is introduced shortly after kakashi gaiden and the first thought everyone has is "oh its obito whos not dead hence hiding his face" and the expectation is that when tobi fights team kakashi he'll escape by revealing "surprise its me" shocking kakashi into being unable to act. Instead tobi eventually worked his way into the role of true mastermind behind the akatski and with his role expanded now his identity has to be a better secret... That everyone's already figured out. Honestly I really wish he had gone with future sasuke instead that would have been a way better twist with far more interesting implications. Or heck make tobi be "real world" Sauske and reveal the whole story has been Ninja inception in a genjutsu where they originally lost to pain or medara
Dr.Palutena
Member
"nah dog I ain't your pops, we kinda just look alike like those celebrity doubles , you just some chicken shit kid of no name parents
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Not that it makes a huge difference, but isn't the manga and anime ordered differently with regard to
Kakashi Gaiden? Tobi is first introduced at the end of the Sasori arc, Obito not until early pain arc
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