• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Torment: Tides of Numenera Kickstarter by InXile [Complete; $4.3 million funded]

Zeliard

Member
That's pretty much how I wanted them to pursue the combat - make it generally more enjoyable and interesting and connect it to the story in some fashion. Spirit Eating in MotB had its issues but it's a good thing to look at as far as tying a gameplay mechanic to the narrative.

Phase-based combat is potentially interesting. It's going to punish lackluster play more since, if it's a typical phase-based system, you'll be locked into your actions after the planning phase. It'll also greatly speed up flow of combat in general, coming closer to real-time due to the speed of execution but with the deliberating you get with a turn-based system in the planning stage. It could be a mess or it could be very effective, taking some of the good elements of both real-time and turn-based. I'm waiting to hear more detail on it.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
Boo you!
Boo. You.

FS combat is best combat. You need to train some more :p
Of all the people to quote me of course it would be you, the person who directed me to play FS in the first place.
KuGsj.gif
 

lmpaler

Member
I did, but it didn't help. I think I'm using now 800x600, seems to be a decent graphical enhancement while still leaving everything narrow enough for me to see.^^

Can't wait till saturday.

Follow the guide on GOG or the Let's Play thread and you will enjoy the game more. The default resolution was great for the day, but playing this on my TV @720P with all the mods is the bees knees
 

Durante

Member
It's not a popular opinion on GAF but I'd actually favor a RTwP system. Implemented well it offers all the control of a turn based system when you want it, but only when you want it.

Oh, and another unpopular opinion: I hope the UI will be as flexible as NWN2's was in fully patched state.
 

Dennis

Banned
It's not a popular opinion on GAF but I'd actually favor a RTwP system. Implemented well it offers all the control of a turn based system when you want it, but only when you want it.

I don't know that that is true. I favor RTwP as well and between the two of us we have Best-GAF covered so....
 

Zukuu

Banned
Follow the guide on GOG or the Let's Play thread and you will enjoy the game more. The default resolution was great for the day, but playing this on my TV @720P with all the mods is the bees knees
I have no problem getting the mods to work, but 1920x1080 is just too far away. I can't barely make anything out on screen. Feels more like Diablo than anything else that way.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
I have no problem getting the mods to work, but 1920x1080 is just too far away. I can't barely make anything out on screen. Feels more like Diablo than anything else that way.

You could also set it to a lower 16:9 resolution instead of 4:3 with roughly the same height, I think using 1152x648 works (if 1280x720 is too much as well), it'll give you more viewable area that way and look a bit more modern (and also not being pillar boxed or stretched playing fullscreen) while feeling otherwise the same as 800x600. Be careful with changing mods on existing saves though, that's how you get in to trouble. Whatever you do, just stick with it once you start, and hope any bugs are simple ones to bypass.
 

dude

dude
It's not a popular opinion on GAF but I'd actually favor a RTwP system. Implemented well it offers all the control of a turn based system when you want it, but only when you want it.

Oh, and another unpopular opinion: I hope the UI will be as flexible as NWN2's was in fully patched state.

I too prefer RTwP. Turn based is way too slow for these kind of games.

I like flexible UIs, but I really didn't like the one they had in NWN2. It made no sense. So I'm hoping for something as flexible, only... Good.
 

Rubius

Member
It depends how they implement it if I'm okay with the system or not.

I input in order:
PC#2 => Buff PC#1
PC#1 => Attack
PC#3 => Heal PC#1

Case 1:

The game rolls dices for all characters and enemies and then outputs a order according to the roll (and stats).

PC#3 => Heal PC#1
Enemy => Attacks PC#1
PC#1 => Attack
PC#2 => Buff PC#1

THAT WOULD BE BAD! It would destroy any sense of strategy.

Case 2:

The order stays intact, but the enemy get's his action somewhere in between.

PC#2 => Buff PC#1
PC#1 => Attack
Enemy => Attack PC#1
PC#3 => Heal PC#1

THAT is okay. All that changes over traditional turn based combat is that you're enforced to the option you chose in advance.

Case 3:
All attacks occur simultaneously.
Bad. VERY BAD!


I hope it will be case 2 so much!!
It will likely be initiative based, like in D&D. At least I hope so.
 

lmpaler

Member
I wonder if there will be some kind of mod support. I think it would be awesome to see some quests people come up with or something else on the side.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
It's not a popular opinion on GAF but I'd actually favor a RTwP system. Implemented well it offers all the control of a turn based system when you want it, but only when you want it.
My two biggest problems with RTWP:

1. The information feedback is inferior to a true turn-based system.

In theory, you have all of the same information available to you. In practice, things move too fast and you end up glossing over most of the interesting combat details. Quick example: does anyone pay attention to hit percentages in a RTWP game? Contrast that with XCOM:EU, where a single hit percentage (and a single subsequent hit or miss) is deeply engaging. What ends up happening in most RTWP games is that because of the poor feedback, the player is incentivized to optimize their character outside of combat, and maybe make a few macro-level decisions inside of combat, but will spend most of their time in battles letting their party fight with default attacks or on autopilot.

2. The pausing becomes a game in itself, and a generally boring, tedious one.

Let's assume you do want to pay attention to details as much as you would in an equivalent turn-based game. As you say, you can potentially have the same level of control, just by pausing at appropriate moments.

The issue is that in practice, you're going to have to play a tedious metagame to pause appropriately. Consider ranged attacks. In a turn-based game, you can carefully position your ranged characters so that you'll hit some enemies at the edge of your range. By the time the enemies can move far enough to hit you, you might be able to reposition your ranged attackers and move some other party members in to screen them.

In a RTWP game, this sort of situation is basically untenable. You're going to have to carefully watch the screen and hit the pause button at just the right moment to make sure the enemies are just inside of your attack range. Then you'll have to unpause, then pause again once the attacks actually hit the enemies. Then you can give your units move orders, then unpause, and hope that you estimated the distance the enemies can move before your next attack correctly.

It becomes a huge hassle for all except the hugely dedicated. Most people will just use the same simple set of ranged tactics over and over--plop some meatshields in front of the enemies and keep your ranged guys at the back. The alternative is spending lots of time and effort with a small and uncertain payoff.

This is one situation among many. RTWP entails careful timing, visual estimation, and a willingness to pause and unpause continuously. Those elements might work well in other types of games, but for party-based RPG combat, they take the focus away from pure strategizing.

---

I understand your argument that a game should only offer lots of control to the player when they want it, but I disagree. It's simple: if you don't need lots of control and careful thought to prevail in combat, why is that combat there? Is it a speed bump? Is it solely a way to evaluate how well you've built your character outside of combat? Is it a grind--something to fill time as you engage with a game's progression elements? Lots of games use combat in that way, but as a game that purports to focus on a low frequency of high-quality encounters, Torment definitely shouldn't.

(Sorry for the length of this rant)
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I too prefer RTwP. Turn based is way too slow for these kind of games.
I don't think turn-based systems have to be inherently slow. To use XCOM: Enemy Unknown again, I think virtually no one would call it "slow", despite it using turn-based combat with full party control.

I mean, yeah, if combat is meaningless and doesn't have a lot of interesting tactical decisions to make, then it'll feel slow and boring. "Going through the motions" is more painful with a turn-based system than with a real-time system. But as I argued above, making a system that has interesting decision-making in the first place is easier with TB than RTWP.
 

FACE

Banned
The rate of pledging has slowed down quite a bit, at this rate we won't reach 5 million! :p

Edit: For those of you wondering about Paypal(from Fargo's twitter):

For those interested our PayPal revenues for #Torment are $27,194 so far. They are usually small in comparison to @kickstarter
 
PS:T combat was perfectly fine to me. Of course it could have been improved. But it was fine. Turn based would betray the spirit of the original IMO.
 

Sykotik

Member
I would much prefer a turn-based system to what was used in Ps:T. Combat in Planescape is an absolute clusterfuck. Moving to a turn-based system has the benefit of allowing all combat styles to have a feeling of "umph" and power. Meanwhile, in Planescape, melee has no "umph" apart from backstabs and crits. It doesn't compare to how magic feels, in my opinion.
 

Darklord

Banned
Funded $28. Not sure why, just in a spending mood and why not help a game out. I've never even played Torment...

Wait, why'd I fund this again?
 

injurai

Banned
The rate of pledging has slowed down quite a bit, at this rate we won't reach 5 million! :p

Edit: For those of you wondering about Paypal(from Fargo's twitter):

It still amazes me how Star Citizen garnered $6.2 mil from RSI alone, and then another $2.1 mil from KS.
 

dude

dude
I don't think turn-based systems have to be inherently slow. To use XCOM: Enemy Unknown again, I think virtually no one would call it "slow", despite it using turn-based combat with full party control.

I mean, yeah, if combat is meaningless and doesn't have a lot of interesting tactical decisions to make, then it'll feel slow and boring. "Going through the motions" is more painful with a turn-based system than with a real-time system. But as I argued above, making a system that has interesting decision-making in the first place is easier with TB than RTWP.

I disagree. I didn't play the new XCOM, so I can't comment on it - but even if the TB combat is not a 40 minutes bore-fest like ToEE, it's still usually less straightforward - with the constant flirting with the "combat mode" even after combat and having to order each character individually and such. And it's not like you lose that much tactical depth with RTwP (or at all, if the encounters are well made). I honestly see very little advantages to TB combat in isometric RPGs, I'd take RTwP any time.

There was combat in PS:T?!?

Yes. And I actually don't even buy the "you can avoid most combat in the game" mantra. At least a couple of encounters in the game were only avoidable by running away or hiding - Both hard and intuitive in the Infinity Engine system (and even harder when you have a full party of six.)
 

Midou

Member
Yes. And I actually don't even buy the "you can avoid most combat in the game" mantra. At least a couple of encounters in the game were only avoidable by running away or hiding - Both hard and intuitive in the Infinity Engine system (and even harder when you have a full party of six.)

Well for a lot of the tougher areas filled with monsters I would
keep party at entrance, use the thief girl to sneak, and have her to get to my destination, then the whole party moves to it automatically, not like in some other DnD based games where your whole party has to arrive
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Heres the truth about combat in PS:T. It was and is fine. Its just as good (if not better) as the combat in BG1. The only thing bad about the combat imo is the pathfinding which is true of every IE game. Even then there is nothing in PS:T with pathfinding as infuriating as maps like Firewine Bridge or Nashkel Mines.

Bad combat is something like Arcanum.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
In a RTWP game, this sort of situation is basically untenable.
No it isn't, it's how I play the Infinity Engine games.

You can have the game auto-pause as soon as an enemy is spotted and in other special cases (weapon unusable, character heavily injured, target destroyed, etc) so that you never lose even a split second in making the important decisions.

It works great.

I would much prefer a turn-based system to what was used in Ps:T. Combat in Planescape is an absolute clusterfuck. Moving to a turn-based system has the benefit of allowing all combat styles to have a feeling of "umph" and power. Meanwhile, in Planescape, melee has no "umph" apart from backstabs and crits. It doesn't compare to how magic feels, in my opinion.
Planescape's way of real time with pause isn't the only way, it's just a shoddy implementation. It's great in other IE games.

with the constant flirting with the "combat mode" even after combat and having to order each character individually and such. And it's not like you lose that much tactical depth with RTwP (or at all, if the encounters are well made). I honestly see very little advantages to TB combat in isometric RPGs, I'd take RTwP any time.
You don't need to flirt with combat mode or order characters individually outside combat depending on how it's setup. Spiderweb's turn based games have very similar flow to the Infinity Engine games outside the obvious difference. You walk around in real time, have characters buff each other or whatever at will, or just follow the leader around, and only use the turn based mode whenever you want to initiate it or when an enemy spots your characters and initiates it. And of course every action matters and has a potentially big effect on the battle, I dunno why you'd think you're spending turns doing next to nothing. They also don't try to make movement smooth like in real time games or with elaborate animations so it moves quite speedily once you know what you're doing, even if not as speedily as real time simultaneous actions.

I'm fine with whatever style they choose as long as it's a solid system that's well thought out and feels comfortable and good to play around with. Turn based, real time with pause, phase based, whatever, they've all been done well and shit, choosing one lesser implementation as an example to show how everything about such a system is bad no matter what is silly...

Anyway, my biggest fear is for the overall interface and convenience, NWN2 was a mess to control, none of the camera modes felt right in any situation, never mind the convenience of a single mode being right for all situations that isometric games have. Wasteland 2 in its footage didn't seem to have that issue but that could just be the player being very used to it and playing in a way it doesn't show to the viewer. But yeah, I'm worried with how much they reference NWN2.
 
Heres the truth about combat in PS:T. It was and is fine. Its just as good (if not better) as the combat in BG1. The only thing bad about the combat imo is the pathfinding which is true of every IE game. Even then there is nothing in PS:T with pathfinding as infuriating as maps like Firewine Bridge or Nashkel Mines.

Agreed :)

Bad combat is something like Arcanum.

A-agreed :(


I would much prefer a turn-based system to what was used in Ps:T. Combat in Planescape is an absolute clusterfuck. Moving to a turn-based system has the benefit of allowing all combat styles to have a feeling of "umph" and power. Meanwhile, in Planescape, melee has no "umph" apart from backstabs and crits. It doesn't compare to how magic feels, in my opinion.

Couldn't agree less, but I guess it's a matter of personal taste.
 

dude

dude
I just now saw your full post. So here's a more full reply.
My two biggest problems with RTWP:

1. The information feedback is inferior to a true turn-based system.

In theory, you have all of the same information available to you. In practice, things move too fast and you end up glossing over most of the interesting combat details. Quick example: does anyone pay attention to hit percentages in a RTWP game? Contrast that with XCOM:EU, where a single hit percentage (and a single subsequent hit or miss) is deeply engaging. What ends up happening in most RTWP games is that because of the poor feedback, the player is incentivized to optimize their character outside of combat, and maybe make a few macro-level decisions inside of combat, but will spend most of their time in battles letting their party fight with default attacks or on autopilot.
Well, This is about play style but I don't really agree with you here. In BG2, I micro-manage the heck out of my group. Auto-pilot? You try that shit against Firkraag and you have yourself a dead party.
I don't know about optimizing outside of battle either - Leave alone the fact that's very limited in most IE games (because they use the D&D edition that didn't completely suck) - The most you can do is hope to find a new weapon or spell. Proficiency are rare and not very effective and leveling is very slow. You had to make you decisions in combat. This is not true for most RTwP games, so I don't know entirely what you're talking about.
The point is, you don't really need every single bit of information, when you see what you need you pause and redirect. I also on't know anyone who wouldn't know his characters THAC0 in BG2, for example.

2. The pausing becomes a game in itself, and a generally boring, tedious one.

Let's assume you do want to pay attention to details as much as you would in an equivalent turn-based game. As you say, you can potentially have the same level of control, just by pausing at appropriate moments.

The issue is that in practice, you're going to have to play a tedious metagame to pause appropriately. Consider ranged attacks. In a turn-based game, you can carefully position your ranged characters so that you'll hit some enemies at the edge of your range. By the time the enemies can move far enough to hit you, you might be able to reposition your ranged attackers and move some other party members in to screen them.

In a RTWP game, this sort of situation is basically untenable. You're going to have to carefully watch the screen and hit the pause button at just the right moment to make sure the enemies are just inside of your attack range. Then you'll have to unpause, then pause again once the attacks actually hit the enemies. Then you can give your units move orders, then unpause, and hope that you estimated the distance the enemies can move before your next attack correctly.

It becomes a huge hassle for all except the hugely dedicated. Most people will just use the same simple set of ranged tactics over and over--plop some meatshields in front of the enemies and keep your ranged guys at the back. The alternative is spending lots of time and effort with a small and uncertain payoff.

This is one situation among many. RTWP entails careful timing, visual estimation, and a willingness to pause and unpause continuously. Those elements might work well in other types of games, but for party-based RPG combat, they take the focus away from pure strategizing.
In RTwP you don't deal with positioning as much because it's much harder to predict, that's true. But all this is still less tedious than turn-based combat, where you have to see every character and every single enemy preform, each on their own time, some action that usually has a small effect on the battle as a whole. Turn-based combat obviously gives you more time and more information which can result in more strategy and tactical thinking, but usually? It doesn't. Usually it's just a boring show of enemies and characters doing obvious stuff until something interesting happens. RTwP speeds things up a bit, you won't deal with the micro as much, but usually, if the system and encounters are well done, you will be left with the core of the strategy and tactical thinking without all the bloat.

Well for a lot of the tougher areas filled with monsters I would
keep party at entrance, use the thief girl to sneak, and have her to get to my destination, then the whole party moves to it automatically, not like in some other DnD based games where your whole party has to arrive
That doesn't count as "combat can be avoided". I mean yeah, it's possible, but you have to fight against the game very hard to do it. This is silly and PS:T should not get the credit for something like that. It has enough other merits, we don't need to make new ones up.

Heres the truth about combat in PS:T. It was and is fine. Its just as good (if not better) as the combat in BG1. The only thing bad about the combat imo is the pathfinding which is true of every IE game. Even then there is nothing in PS:T with pathfinding as infuriating as maps like Firewine Bridge or Nashkel Mines.

Bad combat is something like Arcanum.

The combat in PS:T wasn't horrible, and it was indeed better than the combat in BG1 (like that's a big achievement :p) - But most of the encounters were boring and uninspired. BG2 had some amazing encounters, spellcasters all over the place, fucking dragons... PS:T had thugs.

Arcanum is beyond bad, it's... Horrendous.
 

dude

dude
You don't need to flirt with combat mode or order characters individually outside combat depending on how it's setup. Spiderweb's turn based games have very similar flow to the Infinity Engine games outside the obvious difference. You walk around in real time, have characters buff each other or whatever at will, or just follow the leader around, and only use the turn based mode whenever you want to initiate it or when an enemy spots your characters and initiates it. And of course every action matters and has a potentially big effect on the battle, I dunno why you'd think you're spending turns doing next to nothing. They also don't try to make movement smooth like in real time games or with elaborate animations so it moves quite speedily once you know what you're doing, even if not as speedily as real time simultaneous actions.

I've played two Geneforge games, so I'm familiar with Spiderweb. In flirting with combat mode, I meant that when I was trying to run away for example or sneaking or whatever enemies kept popping in and out of my screen, and I kept leaving and entering TB-mode. This happen in almost any TB RPG I've played. The fact that the enemies can just roam around and that travelling and combat and two different things do not go hand in hand.
Actions can have big effects in combat, but most of them don't. That's a simple fact. Let's say you attacked - You missed or did like 3 damage, the combat is still far from over and now we move to the next turn. Unless the combat is very easy, you'll have to sit through many boring rounds. My point is that usually, very little changed in every turn, which make them tedious. In RTwP all the boring stuff get cut out. In theory, every turn is full of new information and new strategies and tactical options, but this is very rarely the case.
I'm not saying the combat in Geneforge was bad, these things are just inherent to TB in party based RPGs. I felt the same thing in ToEE, Fallout, Arcanum... I can live with it, but I find RTwP much more convenient.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
But most of the encounters were boring and uninspired. BG2 had some amazing encounters, spellcasters all over the place, fucking dragons... PS:T had thugs.
i agree that there could be more things to fight in the cities but you make it sound like all PS:T has were humanoid thugs. You have abishai in the Hive (which is my preferred method of gaining levels very quickly. Once you Taunt one with Morte the abishai will have tough time landing a blow. Its basically free xp). There are a lot of humanoids in the Buried Village area but after that its exotic creatures for quite a while (varghoul, cranium rat, wererats).
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
No it isn't, it's how I play the Infinity Engine games.

You can have the game auto-pause as soon as an enemy is spotted and in other special cases (weapon unusable, character heavily injured, target destroyed, etc) so that you never lose even a split second in making the important decisions.

It works great.
The problem with auto-pause is that it doesn't distinguish between situations where a pause would be useful and where it wouldn't. In some battles, a "target destroyed" auto-pause might be handy. In others, like where a melee character is wading through a bunch of weak enemies, it might be useless. What that means is that the player has to babysit the auto-pause almost as much as they have to babysit regular pausing.

On top of that, auto-pause doesn't have a comprehensive set of options. So let's say you only want to pause upon the casting of a specific spell. What do you do? Keep auto-pause off and hope you press the space bar in time? Set auto-pause to kick in after every spell cast, and spend time unpausing after every false positive? There just isn't a good solution. What if you want to auto-pause only when you can fireball a group of enemies without hitting any of your party members? You can't. In a TB system this isn't an issue at all.

Baldur's Gate 2 consists mostly of fairly easy encounters that don't need a lot of pausing. It relies heavily on many characters doing the same actions over and over (mostly straight attacks) and buffs cast before combat begins. Sure, you'll have the occasional tense Kangaxx or Firkraag encounter that demands constant pausing, but if the whole game consisted of these, I suspect BG2's RTWP system would quickly become intolerably slow. BG2 is an amazing game that bypasses the weaknesses of its RTWP combat, just as it bypasses the weaknesses of the D&D 2nd edition rules, but RTWP doesn't actually enhance BG2 at all.
 

dude

dude
i agree that there could be more things to fight in the cities but you make it sound like all PS:T has were humanoid thugs. You have abishai in the Hive (which is my preferred method of gaining levels very quickly. Once you Taunt one with Morte the abishai will have tough time landing a blow. Its basically free xp). There are a lot of humanoids in the Buried Village area but after that its exotic creatures for quite a while (varghoul, cranium rat, wererats).

There's a difference between exotic design and an interesting opponent. Most of those exotic enemies were exactly the same in the gameplay perspective - Big melee thugs. They were just boring to fight. I can design a huge monstrosity, give it a cool name, and give it a cool backstory, but it has to actually be interesting to fight against. Take BG2 - one of my most memorable moments was in the De'Arnise Keep, fighting against a Yuan-Ti mage, one of the most mundane D&D creatures, because they actually made him an interesting opponent in an interesting encounter with splitting fucking trolls.
I don't care how much exotic plane make-up they put on their thugs, they need to make the encounters as interesting as the concept :\

Baldur's Gate 2 consists mostly of fairly easy encounters that don't need a lot of pausing. It relies heavily on many characters doing the same actions over and over (mostly straight attacks) and buffs cast before combat begins. Sure, you'll have the occasional tense Kangaxx or Firkraag encounter that demands constant pausing, but if the whole game consisted of these, I suspect BG2's RTWP system would quickly become intolerably slow. BG2 is an amazing game that bypasses the weaknesses of its RTWP combat, just as it bypasses the weaknesses of the D&D 2nd edition rules, but RTWP doesn't actually enhance BG2 at all.
Erm? BG2 was choke full of hard encounters. Until TOB, one spellcaster around and you had to pause like crazy - And they were much more common than in PS:T or BG1. Almost every big encounter in BG2 had at least one spellcaster. It is far from mindless point the character at an enemy combat as you try and paint it. And I do think RTwP enhanced BG2 a lot, I think in a way it's what made the combat in the game so fun and memorable.

TOB is a dfferent story, because while the game was harder the epic level stuff were also completely broken... But it was still fun.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
The problem with auto-pause is that it doesn't distinguish between situations where a pause would be useful and where it wouldn't. In some battles, a "target destroyed" auto-pause might be handy. In others, like where a melee character is wading through a bunch of weak enemies, it might be useless. What that means is that the player has to babysit the auto-pause almost as much as they have to babysit regular pausing.
I never felt like I had to babysit auto pause myself. I just chose the basics I mentioned (+ pause on trap detect, near death and stuff) and left it at that, never going back to the options screen. It worked like a charm. I want to choose the next target and action myself even if it's against trash mobs for maximum efficiency. AI actions annoy me. I play to be in control. It's only a space bar press away from resuming which takes no time at all. It seems like what you want is an optional auto resolve that will just skip the battle and give you the spoils since every time you need to click to do something you will pull a situation where it's apparently unnecessary and annoying to babysit. It doesn't seem like you'll ever have your perfect battle system...
 

DiscoJer

Member
Personally, I don't like real time with pause because it seems like it involves far more micro management and is actually slower in practice than turn based, having to constantly pause.

You have to constantly monitor what is going on, then hit the space bar to pause any time something happens to issue new orders. Like one of your fighters gets hit, so you have to order a cleric to heal them.

I can understand how it can make people feel more involved in combat, but for me, turn based works better - in that case, if the fighter gets hit and needs healing, you just heal them on your cleric's next turn. You don't have to pay such close attention, because time isn't a factor.

It was what made me back out of Project Eternity, and now this. Oh well. I still have WL2 and Shadowrun.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I just now saw your full post. So here's a more full reply.

Well, This is about play style but I don't really agree with you here. In BG2, I micro-manage the heck out of my group. Auto-pilot? You try that shit against Firkraag and you have yourself a dead party.
I don't know about optimizing outside of battle either - Leave alone the fact that's very limited in most IE games (because they use the D&D edition that didn't completely suck) - The most you can do is hope to find a new weapon or spell. Proficiency are rare and not very effective and leveling is very slow. You had to make you decisions in combat. This is not true for most RTwP games, so I don't know entirely what you're talking about.
The point is, you don't really need every single bit of information, when you see what you need you pause and redirect. I also on't know anyone who wouldn't know his characters THAC0 in BG2, for example.
As I mentioned in my reply to Alextended, Firkraag-style encounters that demand continual pausing are very much a rarity, and a RTWP game full of them would be incredibly slow--slower than an equivalent TB system.

THAC0 isn't the same thing as hit percentage. In XCOM, you get a number that pops up whenever you target an enemy which is derived from your character's chance to hit (like THAC0) and the enemy's chance to evade, along with things like distance and cover. In XCOM's turn-based system, this number is meaningful because you have plenty of time to look at it, evaluate it, and make an appropriate decision. In a RTWP system, this sort of number would rarely be meaningful because you'd either have to pause every single time a character's available to attack (quickly making the game incredibly tedious due to the pausing metagame) or alternatively, go with your gut and wing it. I suspect the vast majority of BG2 players, for the vast majority of encounters, would go with the latter option, removing a potentially interesting component of combat.

In RTwP you don't deal with positioning as much because it's much harder to predict, that's true. But all this is still less tedious than turn-based combat, where you have to see every character and every single enemy preform, each on their own time, some action that usually has a small effect on the battle as a whole. Turn-based combat obviously gives you more time and more information which can result in more strategy and tactical thinking, but usually? It doesn't. Usually it's just a boring show of enemies and characters doing obvious stuff until something interesting happens. RTwP speeds things up a bit, you won't deal with the micro as much, but usually, if the system and encounters are well done, you will be left with the core of the strategy and tactical thinking without all the bloat.
I agree that if a game's combat is fundamentally tedious, a RTWP system lets you get past the boring stuff faster.

But I disagree that every combat system has to have this tedium built-in. XCOM is great in this regard. I'd also cite any top-tier combat-focused board game. They're all turn-based, and they all make the player have meaningful decisions every single round.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
To each their own but that sounds kind of silly to me. You don't need to constantly monitor as with the right auto pause options it's almost turn based. People can point out some super slow and boring turn based games/sytems and hypothetical situations as well, that doesn't make turn based a bad choice for everything forever. Same for real time with pause. In the end I guess you're just saying you find this or that boring/unfun. That's fine. As long as you don't think it's some objective truth.
 

Durante

Member
Chairman Yang, I won't dissect your post into individual points (partly because I'm on a business trip and shouldn't really spend too much of my time discussing RPG mechanics ;)), but I thought it was an interesting read. However, a major thrust of your argument (and one that I often see in relation to combat systems) is that -- in essence -- every encounter should be meaningful, and thus, tactically challenging.

This seems obviously true at first glance (why have it otherwise?), but I do in fact disagree with it. Why? Just like leveled enemies in games like Skyrim, I feel not having "throwaway" encounters would negatively impact the cohesion of the presented world. Which is something I personally value more in an RPG than consistently challenging and tactical battles. Basically, it seems terribly unlikely for your party to never encounter an enemy or group of enemies significantly "weaker" than them. (Admittedly, the same is true in reverse, which is one thing that makes believable RPG stories so hard to construct)
And this is where I think comparisons to purely tactical or strategy games fail: in those games, battles that don't require constant tactical attention are a design flaw, so there is no need for a system which accommodates such battles.

Regarding auto-pause: I think that it sometimes "over-pauses", while true, is a weak argument against auto-pause vis-a-vis turn-based combat. Because, in a sense, turn-based always pauses -- and you can't just press space bar to tell the game to get on with it.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I never felt like I had to babysit auto pause myself. I just chose the basics I mentioned (+ pause on trap detect, near death and stuff) and left it at that, never going back to the options screen. It worked like a charm. I want to choose the next target and action myself even if it's against trash mobs for maximum efficiency. AI actions annoy me. I play to be in control. It's only a space bar press away from resuming which takes no time at all. It seems like what you want is an optional auto resolve that will just skip the battle and give you the spoils since every time you need to click to do something you will pull a situation where it's apparently unnecessary and annoying to babysit. It doesn't seem like you'll ever have your perfect battle system...
Like you, I want to be in control every single round and determine exactly what each of my characters will do. That's why I prefer a turn-based system. I get precisely that, without any need to mash the space bar at appropriate times. And of course, turn-based encounters can be balanced around knowing that each player is going to have full control each round, rather than having to compromise and deliver battles that can be won by players using AI.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Like you, I want to be in control every single round and determine exactly what each of my characters will do. That's why I prefer a turn-based system. I get precisely that, without any need to mash the space bar at appropriate times. And of course, turn-based encounters can be balanced around knowing that each player is going to have full control each round, rather than having to compromise and deliver battles that can be won by players using AI.
If you want to be in control every single round how is over-pausing a possible flaw?

And what kind of a point is that about balance? That's like me faulting turn based because the developers think some players might not care to think much so present a ton of bad battles you can win by mindlessly spamming attack orders each round.

That's just bad battle design, not a fault of the system used. The tools for full control are there in both cases and a designer thinking the player won't actually use them and designing the game around that would be silly.

And of course each battle system demands different things from the player, different decision making and preparation, so no, IE games didn't have X-Com's to hit system, they had their own system, and their own other systems... I'm sure plenty X-Com players found it tedious to join a mission with 10 troops and explore the map all in turn based mode moving each unit bit by bit to be in a good position just in case with nothing happening for 90% of the time until they finally find the enemy in a little corner and battle. I wouldn't use that situation as an example to show how turn based is such a bad choice, while you reach out to every hypothetical or encountered potential issue with real time with pause and present it as an universal flaw.

You're clearly trying way too hard and I've got nothing else to add, everyone's free to their preference. I love every kind of combat as long as it's well done so I don't care what they use, just how well they use it.

Edit: wait, SRPGs now? That's a whole different genre, if they had used a turn based system for BGII it wouldn't suddenly be an SRPG like Final Fantasy Tactics with only story scenes and primary encounters. Chances are the encounters would remain the same too. Not to mention there are tons of SRPGs with a ton of fluff encounters. Seriously, that's some silly shit dude.
 

ZoddGutts

Member
They should go for the FFXII battle system international version, were you can just press 2X to speed through weak mobs/enemies. half serious post...
 

dude

dude
As I mentioned in my reply to Alextended, Firkraag-style encounters that demand continual pausing are very much a rarity, and a RTWP game full of them would be incredibly slow--slower than an equivalent TB system.

THAC0 isn't the same thing as hit percentage. In XCOM, you get a number that pops up whenever you target an enemy which is derived from your character's chance to hit (like THAC0) and the enemy's chance to evade, along with things like distance and cover. In XCOM's turn-based system, this number is meaningful because you have plenty of time to look at it, evaluate it, and make an appropriate decision. In a RTWP system, this sort of number would rarely be meaningful because you'd either have to pause every single time a character's available to attack (quickly making the game incredibly tedious due to the pausing metagame) or alternatively, go with your gut and wing it. I suspect the vast majority of BG2 players, for the vast majority of encounters, would go with the latter option, removing a potentially interesting component of combat.


I agree that if a game's combat is fundamentally tedious, a RTWP system lets you get past the boring stuff faster.

But I disagree that every combat system has to have this tedium built-in. XCOM is great in this regard. I'd also cite any top-tier combat-focused board game. They're all turn-based, and they all make the player have meaningful decisions every single round.

Well, yeah, RTwP doesn't go into the resolution of hit percentage for every attack, but it doesn't really have to. It actually makes the combat a lot more like the one you'll have in an actual D&D campaign....

Well, anyway, it's been fun, but I think this won't really go anywhere. I'll continue to prefer RTwP and you TB combat. I'll deal with combat in WL2, and you in PE and hopefully in T:ToN as well ;)
 
Top Bottom