It depends a lot on the quest and the skill check in question.
Quite frequently, failing a check is just failing a check. Often enough, the game allows you to retry.
Torment: Tides of Numenera |OT| What Can Change The Nature of a Man?
- Thread starter valentine71
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It depends a lot on the quest and the skill check in question.
Quite frequently, failing a check is just failing a check. Often enough, the game allows you to retry.
I think he's completely right tbh. Day one reviews are a terrible way of assessing the quality of a game like this. It will take a long time for any consensus opinion on Torment's quality to form.
Couple this with the fact that the majority of games reviewers are glorified lifestyle bloggers who are really only qualified to review 'experience' games.
The wave of Kickstarter RPGs has been deeply disappointing. People raved over Pillars of Eternity when it came out purely because of what it was: a relatively competently designed isometric RPG with an above-average story. It's nothing special. Nobody will ever regard it as a classic. You'll never see someone look back on their memories of the game with a sense of wonder and amazement because the game just wasn't very good.
I thought PoE was a great game. More Icewind Dale than BG2, but still great.
Divinity, on the other hand, is an absolute classic.
What Kickstarter RPGs have been deeply disappointing?
Lister
Banned
What? I think you'll find you're very wrong about that. a LOT of people, myself included, loved Pillars, loved the world, loved the story, loved the characters, loved the gameplay. It's in between BG1 and 2 for me, personally, and probably above DA:O, which is high praise.
Just look at the outpouring of support for Pillars 2 on fig for more evidence that you're absolutely wrong.
Divinity is another one, that, while I do nto like as much as Pillars (and never finished actually), took the community by storm. I think both will be tlaked about for a long time.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Is there any way to stop enemies from targeting my main character in combat? Every encounter now just seems to be a matter of DPS with nothing mattering (unless I can get out of range) because all the enemies just attack him and obviously combat's over once he goes down.
Once I got Tybir he acted as a tank for the party. I forget the name of the move but he can basically taunt for aggro.
Basileus777
Member
Pillars was mediocre, but hardly an indictment of Kickstarter RPGs in general.
AWizardDidIt
Member
I disagree. Divinity Original Sin and Shadowrun: Dragonfall are both extremely high quality games and absolutely up to the quality of the original 90s classic isometric rpgs that people idolize these days (which includes the original Baldur's Gate mind you, a game that was important for the time but has serious problems).
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
Ha ha what? Some of the best RPGs of not only recent years but of all time have been Kickstarted.
LISA, Undertale, the Shadowruns, Pillars, and this game seems to be pretty damn good so far too just to name a few. (Though I'm not totally feeling the roll based checks and I don't like how small the party is because I miss out on half the cast.)
AWizardDidIt
Member
Frankly PoE is still a pretty damn good one of those isometric RPGs, it just think it suffers in encounter design and some fundamental issues I have with its gameplay system that make it a slog after a while. I was pretty thoroughly entertained for about half of it.
But I realize for some group, the classics of the 90s are something that can never be replicated and any attempt to is obviously a greedy cash grab (disregarding the fact that this niche genre revival will never appeal to a wide audience or earn that much so there's no logical reason to assume these people are doing it for the money)
But I realize for some group, the classics of the 90s are something that can never be replicated and any attempt to is obviously a greedy cash grab (disregarding the fact that this niche genre revival will never appeal to a wide audience or earn that much so there's no logical reason to assume these people are doing it for the money)
hemtae
Member
His Majesty
Banned
yes you can safely sell them
That's awesome! Fun dialogue is really probably the main thing for me when it comes to CRPGs, cause that's what I'll be doing most of my time - talking to people.
Completely disagree with you. It is actually amazing how pretty much every single of one the "big" KS CRPGs has been at least decent. We already got the Shadowfall games, PoE, DoS, W2, and Torment and there are more on the way. The IE games weren't all masterpieces either, I'd say that only BG2 and PS:T were, and all of them had their flaws as well which many people seem to forget. Also what you say about PoE could just as easily describe BG eg. and I'm pretty sure it is regarded as a classic these days.
I've just spent an hour inside the Fifth Eye in just talking to people, and the things they say are actually keeping my interest still.
I'm currently playing through it and couldn't disagree more. I've never played BG2 but I'm finding the freedom in BG1 really satisfying and the quests and side-quests are really fun and fast-paced. Perfect game to play in short bursts, I can finish one or two quests in half an hour quicksave and get the fuck out of the computer
I just got to the city of Baldur's Gate yesterday after 60 hours and it's huge, I'm already lost again, people keep stopping me in the street to give me quests or to tell me to go fuck myself because I'm famous. Best shit I've played in this genre since Planescape: Torment I love it baby
I am rolling my eyes with the fury of a thousand suns.
Seriously, some people have a real hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that preferences differing from theirs can be both informed and legitimate. And you will find that your stated opinion on RPGs is in no way a consensus view. Nor does there even need to be a consensus view.
Amibguous Cad
Member
Mapper for party member 2k17
I'm about 3 hours in and really enjoying it. I'm trying to focus on avoiding combat and enjoying the myriad of choices so far; there's already lots of big decisions to make which no doubt play out differently. Like Planescape, the game enjoys giving you lots of grey choices to make versus obvious good/evil decisions.
Gormenghast
Member
I have a different view. The "classics" we speak about here (BG and following) were based on pen&paper systems that were heavily developed and played for years.
Not just the expansive ruleset they had, but also the settings had excellent designers working on those for many, many years, and tons of group of players pouring over those.
BG isn't simply AD&D, it's Forgotten Realms. And Torment wasn't original material, it was Planescape, and Planescape was genius level before someone even thought of making a computer game out of it.
This new Torment tried to do the same by going for a pen & paper ruleset first, but it has not the same depth of the classics and those who played it confirmed the large majority of the actual ruleset has been cut from the computer Torment we got.
These new CRPGs we're getting are "orphans" of the original material the old ones were based on. They greatly suffer from it.
That's why Temple of Elemental Evil was good. It wasn't new material. The picked an old module and converted it.
But trying to jumpstart a brand new setting will never achieve the depth of a setting that has been actively and intensely developed for many years.
decoyplatypus
Member
I'm going to discuss party composition below, so if you don't want to see early-game companion names, consider this a SPOILER WARNING.
I'm not sure which party members to roll with. I refuse to drop Rhin because I find her mystery interesting. I like Tybir's commentary so far, and god knows I need the help in combat, but I've built my PC and Rhin to more or less cover his social skill set. I haven't brought Callistege back since the tutorial, because Aligern is with me, and I have more than enough INT in the party. Aligern himself is not as much fun as Erritis, but because he was one of the first tutorial companions I feel like I should bring him along. And then I only just got Matkina.
Maybe with a diplomat PC and Rhin in the party, I ought to just take Erritis and Matkina for muscle.
I'm not sure which party members to roll with. I refuse to drop Rhin because I find her mystery interesting. I like Tybir's commentary so far, and god knows I need the help in combat, but I've built my PC and Rhin to more or less cover his social skill set. I haven't brought Callistege back since the tutorial, because Aligern is with me, and I have more than enough INT in the party. Aligern himself is not as much fun as Erritis, but because he was one of the first tutorial companions I feel like I should bring him along. And then I only just got Matkina.
Maybe with a diplomat PC and Rhin in the party, I ought to just take Erritis and Matkina for muscle.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Are you talking about Numenera...?
eh, I don't think it's as complicated as you're making it out to be.
New Vegas captured most, if not all, of the characteristics that defined Fallout 1 + 2. And in some ways improved upon it.
I think it just comes down to a little rust, being beholden to the expectation of "greatest hits", working in a new medium (i.e. isometric Unity games vs. big budget 3D games), limited resources, etc.
An RPG is much much more than a ruleset or setting.
New Vegas captured most, if not all, of the characteristics that defined Fallout 1 + 2. And in some ways improved upon it.
I think it just comes down to a little rust, being beholden to the expectation of "greatest hits", working in a new medium (i.e. isometric Unity games vs. big budget 3D games), limited resources, etc.
An RPG is much much more than a ruleset or setting.
Herr Starr
Member
Wait, wait, wait! Are you saying what I think you're saying? That Planescape Torment was a pretty faithful rendition of AD&D that stuck closely to the published rules, and that Torment: Tides of Numenera doesn't? If so, please excuse me while I laugh uncontrollably.
Now go back and have another look at Planescape: Torment. That game completely ignored just about everything that had to do with the AD&D rules, and it did it deliberately. The developers have even talked about this themselves in retrospectives. I've always disliked AD&D (but loved every other edition of the ruleset), so I was overjoyed that Planescape: Torment gave it the proverbial finger. Torment: Tides of Numenera is more faithful to the Numenera rules than I had expected, but it too has discarded aspects of it that doesn't quite serve its purpose. Just like the original game did.
That you seem to believe otherwise reveals that you've let your nostalgia get the better of you.
This too. The very premise of Torment is "an RPG about hating RPGs."
In the same way that KOTOR 2 is a "Star Wars story about hating Star Wars."
Numenera is a (pen and paper) RPG that heavily demphasizes rule sets and embraces the actual role playing process. Combine this with a setting that is very close to "everything goes" and you get something that pushes for a lot of freedom. The effort system is probably the closest thing to a unique and strict mechanic it has.
As for combat, Torment is probably more complex than the pen and paper. The biggest difference, really, lies in introducing separate health, which in Numenera is all part of the three pools, Intellect, Might and Speed. I feel that this might reduce the stakes a bit, but haven't really come to a big combat scenario yet.
MisterShine
Member
I love almost everything about BG1 (especially when it is modded to add some extra party banter) EXCEPT the actual city of Baldur's Gate. It has nowhere near enough cool stuff going on in it, takes a while to traverse everywhere, quest hooks are hidden in buildings, etc. Maybe I'm just spoiled by Akathla though..
Also, for anyone who was disappointed in Pillars on release - I strongly recommend giving it another shot. I liked Pillars at the time, but having recently gone back following the 3.0 patch + White March DLC I can safely say I love it. Rebalanced classes and abilities, functioning party AI, rebalanced and redone combat encounters (including just tossing out a lot of trash) along with the increased reactivity and storytelling in WM 1 + 2... It is legitimately great.
My only issue really with it is pacing. You basically HAVE to scale content to get any kind of challenge after the expansion stuff, and it just feels kind of awkward.
While I don't really disagree with your overall point here, doesn't the fact that these games were advertised and kickstarted explicitly as revivals of older style of games, with systems and style more or less intact? That is what people said they wanted, so that's what those companies gave them.
See, I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I of course accept that there are differing viewpoints on games, but that's a completely vapid thing to say. When you adopt a position of 'well everyone's entitled to their opinion' that is, while of course true as an abstract proposition, it leads to a useless relativism where nobody can really claim 'Game X is better than Game Y' and you get slipping standards in gameplay where games which have barely any actual gameplay like Assassins Creed can be regularly reviewed in the high 9s and 10s.
Not all opinions are of equal worth. Mainstream reviewers are generally very poorly equipped to review certain genres of game: fighting games, sims. character action and RPGs are among them.
I should probably clarify what I meant because a lot of the Kickstarter RPGs have actually been good RPGs. I really liked Shadowrun as an example. But I think that the
They did nothing interesting from an experimental point of view. They did nothing to advance the genre at all. At the moment, RPGs are a stagnating genre. I felt PoE was a slog through the marsh of 'who really cares'. It was perfectly serviceable, but it felt like a product that had no joy to it. There were points where I'd honestly dread speaking to another character and have to endure the vomit of boring verbiage that he'd produce.
I actually think Expeditions Conquistador was an example of something pushing RPGs in an interesting direction at least. No Truce With the Furies and Age of Decadence are other good examples of doing something interesting with the medium.
decoyplatypus
Member
This is a strange thing to say about Divinity: Original Sin.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Has anyone here bought the DLC?
Gormenghast
Member
Yes, original Torment being AD&D is irrelevant (it's relevant for the other games where mechanics are an aspect). But it is relevant that Torment was Planescape. And that already was just a pale version of Planescape itself. Just a scratch on the surface.
Numenera, the source material itself, doesn't hold a candle to Planescape. I feel that the same translates comparing original Torment to the new one.
I guess if someone simply took the original Ravenloft and dug in what was written at the time, this already would make a better game than anything based on Numenera. Those old settings are far, far more interesting than anything surfaced in the last years.
That would be so awesome. Although, since the computer is always right, that CRPG could be the start of sentient AI!
Herr Starr
Member
You do realize that you're letting your nostalgia talk for you, right? There's nothing wrong with nostalgia, but don't let it blind you, especially to the point where you state your opinion about a setting as if it's fact.
The only thing worthwhile, as a backer who has access to pretty much all of it, I found were the novellas. They're perhaps not truly brilliant writing, a bit limited by their page counts, but they serve in fleshing out the world and I found them enjoyable enough. Especially " The Last Days of Archopalasia" by Tony Evans was incredible. Also by far the longest at about 120 pages (on my ereader, so page count is a bit fuzzy). Could have easily been turned into a full novel, I believe, and a good one too.
Now, I wouldn't exactly pay 45€ for it, that is even by EA standards obscene DLC pricing, but they are the only thing desirable in it, by my humble view, maybe the soundtrack too.
Think I might be done with this. I encountered my 2nd crisis just now
and managed to kill one guy, but there were like 4-5 total and they kicked the shit out of me. I'm fine with them making a game that focuses on text instead of combat, but both of the times I've been forced into combat has been a really bad time.
went back to the dome where you start the game and found some thugs there that jumped me without allowing an attempt to talk your way out of it afaik
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Could you not talk during the combat?
SkyTurnsRed
Banned
I've read a few reviews, but can't seem to get a general consensus on length here. Just seeing if I can get a playthrough in before a trip.
Seems like 25-30? Roughly Planescape's length?
Seems like 25-30? Roughly Planescape's length?
Early game, Tybir's got a taunt called Issue Challenge and Hook to grab enemies. Enemy AI seems pretty simple in that it'll just beeline your weakest party members if it can get to them in a single move. Depending on the arena, you may have enough room to move the Last Castoff away to Hide, and then you can reposition them from there.
Right click your oddities to see if they have a Use function. Some of them have dialogue trees with interesting flavor or potential benefits. They can be sold safely otherwise, unless you just really like carrying a particular one around.
Unfortunately, your inactive party members don't gain any experience so once you settle on a party composition you're highly incentivized to keep at it with the rare exception of quests for your other companions. There's also only one Glaive NPC in the game and that limits things a bit if you like having a well-balanced group.
Just gonna spoiler these names.
I went with diplomatic Nano, Rhin, Erritis and Matkina and found that it covers every imaginable situation. On top of having characters with Edge in all three primary stats for skill checks, Erritis and Matkina can both do great damage with the right weapons, Rhin ends up being super overpowered with cyphers and I built the Last Castoff for battlefield control/buffing/debuffing.
And an important, gameplay warning about Rhin which I'll double spoiler:
And an important, gameplay warning about Rhin which I'll double spoiler:
If you ever dismiss her, she's permanently gone.
I might have missed it, but not that I could tell. The first crisis I encountered I could talk to the enemy, but all it did was give them a trivial debuff and then they shellacked my ass anyways, like what's even the point?
The one great thing I'll say about both encounters though is even tho I "died" I didn't encounter a fail state. The game kept going and put me in fun predicaments both times.
After I lost the 2nd encounter I woke up about to be eaten by cannibals who were thrilled that I let them eat me anyways after it was determined I couldn't die
As someone above said, I would have much rather preferred the game just have no combat at all, rather than the half-baked, anti-fun combat we have now. If this was just a point and click style adventure game I think I would be enjoying it a lot more. But I hate that I'm in this mentality where I want to gear myself up for combat and save consumables (really dislike the consumable nature of Cyphers because it goes against the hoarding mentality I like to have in games like these), but then combat resolution feels so crappy.
Arguments of the form 'Game X > Game Y' that do not take into consideration "at what", "for whom", and "in what context" are useless dickwaving contests. Assassins Creed games are by and large well-crafted games possessing features that appeal to mainstream audiences. That audience is generally not the oldschool cRPG audience. I personally find those games dull as paint. That's all fine. It is absurd to suggest that giving an AC game a positive review, in and of itself, should somehow disqualify someone from being a reviewer.
This is demonstrably false. Your arguments so far have consisted of you asserting your (fairly idiosyncratic) subjective experiences without any grounding in the actual content of what you are discussing. That is why people are telling you that your nostalgia is talking. Ironically, that is also a characteristic of a bad game review.
Gormenghast
Member
From the averages it looks like original Torment was at least 1/3 longer. Generally new torment 25-35 as an average, and old Torment was 35-45.
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