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[decoyplatypus]

how many mandatory fights are there in this?

I've had zero on the crit path in the first five hours. There's a mandatory "crisis" in the tutorial, but you can talk your way out of it, and there's a mandatory-ish fight in one early sidequest.

Others can speak for later in the game. I suspect there will be at least a handful of cases similar to the tutorial where you can't avoid combat initiating but you can avoid fighting.

 

[Massicot]

I've had zero on the crit path in the first five hours. There's a mandatory "crisis" in the tutorial, but you can talk your way out of it, and there's a mandatory-ish fight in one early sidequest.

Others can speak for later in the game. I suspect there will be at least a handful of cases similar to the tutorial where you can't avoid combat initiating but you can avoid fighting.

I guess that's why they are called "Crises" instead of battles or encounters.

There are some sidequests where I'm not sure how I would get the outcome I wanted without combat though. Such as The Adversary.

Looking at the trophy list, I'm seeing trophies for a whole lot of things that I wasn't even close to doing in my playthrough.

Spoiler

Coty Betraying the First? Wtf. I just gave him to the nearby shopkeeper, lol.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I've had zero on the crit path in the first five hours. There's a mandatory "crisis" in the tutorial, but you can talk your way out of it, and there's a mandatory-ish fight in one early sidequest.

Others can speak for later in the game. I suspect there will be at least a handful of cases similar to the tutorial where you can't avoid combat initiating but you can avoid fighting.

That's good, I'm trying to rush this I admit (given the other games coming out plus workload lately) so I just don't want to find myself SoL down the line and underleveled or something.

 

[goblin]

Spoiler

Coty Betraying the First? Wtf. I just gave him to the nearby shopkeeper, lol.

I haven't done it myself, but I bet

Spoiler

if you get Coty a job as a Memovira guard you can convince him to turn on them all.

how many mandatory fights are there in this?

I want to say every mandatory crisis has opportunities for non-combat solutions. They may not be your ideal solution, but they're there. Some of the side crises are combat-mandatory.

That's good, I'm trying to rush this I admit (given the other games coming out plus workload lately) so I just don't want to find myself SoL down the line and underleveled or something.

I mean, if it helps, it's not particularly long by the standards of the genre. After finishing the game I got curious and cross-referenced my quest list with the strategy guide and I completed 100% of the quests available to me in a total of 21 hours.

 

[The Illiterati]

I guess that's why they are called "Crises" instead of battles or encounters.

There are some sidequests where I'm not sure how I would get the outcome I wanted without combat though. Such as The Adversary.

I'm still in Sagus and I

Spoiler

trapped/killed

the Adversary without combat.

 

[Massicot]

I'm still in Sagus and I

Spoiler

trapped/killed

the Adversary without combat.

Wow. This game definitely merits a couple playthroughs.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm still in Sagus and I

Spoiler

trapped/killed

the Adversary without combat.

Nice, you can do it when you tell Dhama that you'll deal with it yourself right? I just told him let's fight it all together.

I also love how several of the

Spoiler

seemingly unrelated sidequests in Sagus end up tieing in together.

 

[Sinatar]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

 

[Massicot]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

This was one of my main complaints. It always seems like you're highly outnumbered (or in some cases, have a high number of npc allies/neutrals) so Rounds take forever before you can have any input again. It's moderately frustrating.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

They had a vote on the combat system years ago. I vaguely remember choosing turn-based, but I'm not sure what my rationale was. I'd definitely prefer real-time with pause.

 

[Lister]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

I TOLD you guyz no one listens to me until it's too late.

 

[Fledz]

They had a vote on the combat system years ago. I vaguely remember choosing turn-based, but I'm not sure what my rationale was. I'd definitely prefer real-time with pause.

Come to think of it, I think I did the same as you and I'm not entirely sure why now.

 

[bati]

Wow. This game definitely merits a couple playthroughs.

Eh I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I freaking love the game but I've been experimenting with quests and different paths usually lead to the same outcome and several times I've been given access to the areas that were initially exclusive to the other path from the one I've taken. Age of Decadence this isn't. I'd say you should just give in and roleplay your responses, that's the main strength of the game.

 

[The Illiterati]

Nice, you can do it when you tell Dhama that you'll deal with it yourself right? I just told him let's fight it all together.

Yep. This leads to

Spoiler

a quite involved and deep conversation "game/battle"

with the Adversary. Very cool.

 

[Purkake4]

Where my Steam cards at tho?

 

[goblin]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

Was it the drones? In the beta that encounter had a tendency of bugging out after completion by either: crashing, getting you stuck in combat, or making the game unresponsive. I probably did it four times and it's always an interminable slog even if you know exactly what to do because of the nature of the system. Hopefully it's been fixed for release!

Many of the mandatory crises in the game can have tons of characters in them and, thus, take far longer than they should to resolve. So even if you're not engaging with the combat mechanics, it still takes forever to get what you want done.

I really believe Numenera as it shipped would've benefited overall from either RTWP or no combat. The turn-based crisis system shines when it's putting you under the gun by simulating time pressure for events that would otherwise be an extended series of skill checks in other CRPGs, with the looming threat being quests branching in ways you don't want, not death. Unfortunately, there are only two situations in the entire game I can think of where I felt like the designers were really capitalizing on the potential of that idea and they're both a ways into the game.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Poorly-designed combat encounters are slogs whether they're turn-based, RTWP, or even straight-up real-time.

Numenera might have tedious combat, but that's not an issue of it being turn-based. Divinity: Original Sin and the Shadowruns had good turn-based combat, Planescape: Torment had bad RTWP combat, and even the modern RTWP system of Pillars of Eternity had significant bouts of tedium. In theory, RTWP systems can help quickly bypass boring fights. In practice, developers seem to compensate by just increasing the number of fights, negating that advantage.

 

[jtb]

Eh I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I freaking love the game but I've been experimenting with quests and different paths usually lead to the same outcome and several times I've been given access to the areas that were initially exclusive to the other path from the one I've taken. Age of Decadence this isn't. I'd say you should just give in and roleplay your responses, that's the main strength of the game.

You can't judge any game's freedom, choice/consequence, etc. on the first playthrough. Very few games actually offer truly distinct experiences during repeat plays; many offer that illusion the first time through, however.

Poorly-designed combat encounters are slogs whether they're turn-based, RTWP, or even straight-up real-time.

Numenera might have tedious combat, but that's not an issue of it being turn-based. Divinity: Original Sin and the Shadowruns had good turn-based combat, Planescape: Torment had bad RTWP combat, and even the modern RTWP system of Pillars of Eternity had significant bouts of tedium. In theory, RTWP systems can help quickly bypass boring fights. In practice, developers seem to compensate by just increasing the number of fights, negating that advantage.

Agreed. There are very few truly bad concepts. There are many bad executions.

 

[AndersK]

So, since i was sick and between Tv's, i decided to jump on this instead the 500 other games out right now, and so far i really like it. I've definitely dug the recent wave of CRPG's even though i found Wasteland 2 somewhat boring. I love how clueless i am about the world and the mechanics of the game, a really novel spin of the genre.

I fucking love i can go all out on being talky and sneaky. Doing that in most Crpgs always felt like you'd gimp yourself slightly to pass some arbitrary CHA checks.

 

[bati]

You can't judge any game's freedom, choice/consequence, etc. on the first playthrough.

Sure you can. You load a save and explore alternate paths. Not many games have quests with far reaching consequences and when they do they're usually few and far between. After you try out some quests from different angles you start to see the patterns in design and from what I've seen so far (in

Spoiler

Necropolis

at the moment) Torment is playing it fairly safe, making sure that player sees as much content as possible. Hell, even the stat checks are more or less freely available to every character, all that skills seem to do is increase your odds for success (Perception might be the exception, I'm not sure if the small details show up if you don't have any points in it). As long as you have stat points available (not hard when there are so many stat refreshing consumables around) and you're willing to quick load a few times you should be able to pass everything.

 

[QFNS]

Sure you can. You load a save and explore alternate paths. Not many games have quests with far reaching consequences and when they do they're usually few and far between. After you try out some quests from different angles you start to see the patterns in design and from what I've seen so far (in

Spoiler

Necropolis

at the moment) Torment is playing it fairly safe, making sure that player sees as much content as possible. Hell, even the stat checks are more or less freely available to every character, all that skills seem to do is increase your odds for success (Perception might be the exception, I'm not sure if the small details show up if you don't have any points in it). As long as you have stat points available (not hard when there are so many stat refreshing consumables around) and you're willing to quick load a few times you should be able to pass everything.

The only thing I haven't been able to discern from my few hours in is how plentiful those stat refilling items are. I haven't really been shopping much (mostly since I don't have a lot of Shins), but I have found a few of those items for each stat. I can't tell if this is just them giving you some in the beginning so you don't get screwed on your first few quests or they are pretty much all over. Also it seems like most give ~3 points and when your max pool is only something like 10 in the first hours, that is a pretty substantial amount. You can just throw 5 points at a tough check with a retry and then get most of it back.

 

[bati]

There are 2 or 3 merchants in the city that sell a couple consumables for each stat. There are two versions, one for 3 points and one for 6. I don't remember the exact numbers but I think you can buy a total of ~15 point refill for each stat. And then you also have some Cyphers that do the same + rest as an option.

 

[jtb]

Sure you can. You load a save and explore alternate paths. Not many games have quests with far reaching consequences and when they do they're usually few and far between. After you try out some quests from different angles you start to see the patterns in design and from what I've seen so far (in

Spoiler

Necropolis

at the moment) Torment is playing it fairly safe, making sure that player sees as much content as possible. Hell, even the stat checks are more or less freely available to every character, all that skills seem to do is increase your odds for success (Perception might be the exception, I'm not sure if the small details show up if you don't have any points in it). As long as you have stat points available (not hard when there are so many stat refreshing consumables around) and you're willing to quick load a few times you should be able to pass everything.

I'm agreeing with you, in the sense that I'm always a skeptic when it comes to choice in games.

 

[Kayhan]

Just unlocked this on Steam and just noticed that it got mixed reviews on there.

What is the GAF verdict? Does it live up to the Torment name?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I feel ashamed that I didn't realize this was coming out already or that it was coming to consoles until I saw it available for rent Looking forward to playing this before the end of the year hopefully.

 

[goblin]

Poorly-designed combat encounters are slogs whether they're turn-based, RTWP, or even straight-up real-time.

Numenera might have tedious combat, but that's not an issue of it being turn-based. Divinity: Original Sin and the Shadowruns had good turn-based combat, Planescape: Torment had bad RTWP combat, and even the modern RTWP system of Pillars of Eternity had significant bouts of tedium. In theory, RTWP systems can help quickly bypass boring fights. In practice, developers seem to compensate by just increasing the number of fights, negating that advantage.

I agree with you when it comes to no-nonsense combat in games, particularly about the fear of filler fights in RTWP systems.

From the perspective of a player who's trying to take the non-combat option whenever possible, though, I think Numenera's hybrid crises feel particularly clunky for being turn-based. Speaking broadly, because I don't want to spoil any specific moments:

When everything works well in a non-combat crisis it feels cool in the same way that something like Alpha Protocol's time-sensitive conversations did, where it's adding pressure to a situation you might take for granted in other games. But in a crisis that has a big fight going on while you're doing non-combat objectives, which is most of them, it reminded me of the worst parts of decking in Shadowrun Returns or Dragonfall where you're repeatedly passing turns on three of your characters because you need to act in cyberspace. It feels very disconnected, and that adds to the frustration from the slow pace of the turn-based combat because enemies and NPCs are going through the motions, but you're not engaging with them at all and in some cases nothing they do matters. They're like extras that are constantly mugging really hard for the camera.

To be clear, when I suggest RTWP or no combat I very specifically mean combat! I really like the whole idea behind crises as turn-based non-combat sequences, think the ones like that in the game are cool, and would like to see more of them; hopefully they carry forward with and improve on the system in the future. I appreciate that inXile tried something different to create tense situations in an isometric, throwback style game that de-emphasizes actual mix-it-up fighting. I'd even love to change my mind about their approach to most fights by nothing but better combat and encounter fundamentals in the next Torment game.

I have no idea what the game is like for people who decide to seek out and revel in combat encounters. Maybe it's great, and they're balanced really well. Also, by my count there are a handful of completely unavoidable crises in the entire game, so if the world, writing and characters are all working for you then none of this is a dealbreaker by any stretch. Just one of the things that stood out in particular to me after my playthrough.

 

[Lister]

Poorly-designed combat encounters are slogs whether they're turn-based, RTWP, or even straight-up real-time.

Numenera might have tedious combat, but that's not an issue of it being turn-based. Divinity: Original Sin and the Shadowruns had good turn-based combat, Planescape: Torment had bad RTWP combat, and even the modern RTWP system of Pillars of Eternity had significant bouts of tedium. In theory, RTWP systems can help quickly bypass boring fights. In practice, developers seem to compensate by just increasing the number of fights, negating that advantage.

But it's always the same thing in turn based combat games. Even in divinity, at some points some combat feels incredibly boring and or tedious.

I remember when I hit the caves with the invincible knights. God whata frustrating mess, and it wasnt just them, any time I encountered a set of enemies that I outmatched, it was tedium.

In Pillars, the few encounters like that were over in 5 seconds.

 

[vocab]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

There's a difference between practical and fucking retarded.

 

[QFNS]

Just unlocked this on Steam and just noticed that it got mixed reviews on there.

What is the GAF verdict? Does it live up to the Torment name?

I'm loving it so far. But I'm only a few hours in. The game is full of text and combat is kinda clunky. So yes it is a Torment game

 

[decoyplatypus]

I played through the second major location (

Spoiler

The Valley of Dead Heroes)

today. I wasn't terribly impressed with it. The sidequests were bare bones, and the major conflict in the area felt pretty scattershot:

Spoiler

there's hardly anything to go on with the initial fighting cults problem you run into, and the writing for Inifere and Endless Gate is frustratingly imprecise.

The following location seems pretty promising though.

Here's a question: how is Erritis playing for--and I'm going to spoiler this in case people don't want to know anything about the character--

Spoiler

those of you who do not have the scan thoughts ability?

 

[Bluth54]

Where my Steam cards at tho?

Yeah it's weird that this game doesn't have trading cards.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

A few hours in:

Music is gooooooooooooood.

Choices matter in the best ways still!

Callistege looks so damn cool. Mag-fucking-neto trippy hands to the next level.

 

[Primus]

What music should be playing inside the Fifth Eye: "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" by Blue Oyster Cult.

 

[Funyarinpa]

What music should be playing inside the Fifth Eye: "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" by Blue Oyster Cult.

Looking forward to see any place that could be described by this song.

 

[Lanrutcon]

But it's always the same thing in turn based combat games. Even in divinity, at some points some combat feels incredibly boring and or tedious.

I remember when I hit the caves with the invincible knights. God whata frustrating mess, and it wasnt just them, any time I encountered a set of enemies that I outmatched, it was tedium.

In Pillars, the few encounters like that were over in 5 seconds.

No. No it isn't. That's what we're saying. It has nothing to do with turn based, and everything to do with encounter design and the way the AI functions.

And your Pillars comparison is objectively false: when you encountered a set of enemies where you are outmatched, you need to pause every second to steer your braindead pawns and have them use their abilities/items correctly. 5 seconds? I think not.

FTR: those invincible knights in D:OS are never meant to be fought before you can turn them vulnerable. Game has a stealth system, invisibility scrolls, invisibility spells, invisibility potions and multiple means of teleportation. In the one single encounter where they chase you and you're (not so subtly) told to run their movement gets gutted.

 

[Alastor3]

Apparently, the guy who made the point and click game PRIMORDIA also helped made a character in the game called Inifere and wrote a choose-your-own-adventure segment.

 

[Durante]

I have to say that I'm enjoying the game quite a bit -- primarily on the strength of its setting and story. What I feel are the largest ingredients missing or worse at this point vis-a-vis PST are the companions, which just don't feel nearly as fun and unique as those in PST. And the average quality of the writing isn't as good.

And your Pillars comparison is objectively false

No, what he's saying is objectively true. It's that RTwP is far more inherently scalable in both the effort and time you invest into every encounter. And not just between encounters, but even between phases of encounters. You can spend a lot of time, effort and strategizing for difficult bits, and extremely quickly complete easier bits. That's one of its most significant advantages.

 

[Saphirax]

The best part about this game is its combat. Watching as the enemies slowly make their way towards you, only to stop, ponder about life, turn around half a dozen times, go through a mid life crisis, start pacing back and forth, turn around some more and then finally, after what feels like a decade, decide to attack you is such an ineffable experience.

Did I mention the game crashes when there are too many enemies on the screen?

The Torment experience we deserve (at least when it comes to the console ports).

 

[Lanrutcon]

I have to say that I'm enjoying the game quite a bit -- primarily on the strength of its setting and story. What I feel are the largest ingredients missing or worse at this point vis-a-vis PST are the companions, which just don't feel nearly as fun and unique as those in PST. And the average quality of the writing isn't as good.

No, what he's saying is objectively true. It's that RTwP is far more inherently scalable in both the effort and time you invest into every encounter. And not just between encounters, but even between phases of encounters. You can spend a lot of time, effort and strategizing for difficult bits, and extremely quickly complete easier bits. That's one of its most significant advantages.

Yup, you're right. I actually misread a critical part of his post: I thought he was saying that difficult encounters in PoE are over really quickly. He was referring to easy encounters.

It is worth noting however, that D:OS is a probably not the best example of turn based encounters gone wrong on that front. It's a game where you can end almost every single fight, regardless of difficulty level, in a single turn depending on how well you understand the game. His example of the Death Knights indicate that maybe he didn't really use all the tools the game gave him, and as a result sat through a few long, tedious situations.

 

[bati]

I played through the second major location (

Spoiler

The Valley of Dead Heroes)

today. I wasn't terribly impressed with it. The sidequests were bare bones, and the major conflict in the area felt pretty scattershot:

Spoiler

there's hardly anything to go on with the initial fighting cults problem you run into, and the writing for Inifere and Endless Gate is frustratingly imprecise.

The following location seems pretty promising though.

That was my exact same reaction. I was getting really strong Shadowrun: Returns vibe from that place, at least when it comes to quest structure. And I've probably repeated the big talk at the end (including merecaster) at least 15 times before I was somewhat satisfied with the result.

 

[The Wart]

No, what he's saying is objectively true. It's that RTwP is far more inherently scalable in both the effort and time you invest into every encounter. And not just between encounters, but even between phases of encounters. You can spend a lot of time, effort and strategizing for difficult bits, and extremely quickly complete easier bits. That's one of its most significant advantages.

But usually the issue isn't effort at all, it's purely time. I don't mind having to choose my actions, as uninteresting strategically as that step may sometimes be. The problem is simply having to wait for a large number of enemies to act. RTwP avoids this trap by allowing multiple actions to take place simultaneously, which is a nice solution. But the issue could be massively improved even in a TB system with a simple fast-forward and/or animation skip toggle like you have in, say, Fire Emblem. It's beyond me why so few cRPGs implement this.

 

[Taruranto]

Holy shit, this Tybir dude may be the most boring companion ever.

 

[JustSomeone]

How much does the choice between order of truth and the cult of the changing god affects the game?

 

[Lister]

No, what he's saying is objectively true. It's that RTwP is far more inherently scalable in both the effort and time you invest into every encounter. And not just between encounters, but even between phases of encounters. You can spend a lot of time, effort and strategizing for difficult bits, and extremely quickly complete easier bits. That's one of its most significant advantages.

This is what I was trying to say, thanks Durante.

Every encounter is going to have a variability in terms of it's need for tactical and strategical attention. It's almost impossible, hell I'd say undesirable anyway, to normalize every encounter and try to make it consistent through out.

With turn based combat you're stuck at the same pace, and this is evident in ALL turn based combat system I've ever played. From divinity, as I mentioned, to things like X-Com.

This is, IMHO, absolutely an advantage when it comes to RTwP. I agree that the issues with this game in particular go beyond just being turned based though. And yes, even with it's down sides, turn based combat can, and often times is a lot of fun too. It's just that RTwP can also be and often times is a lot of fun as well, IMHO, despite the usual crap it gets here from some. It often is more fun even, for me at least

 

[bati]

How much does the choice between order of truth and the cult of the changing god affects the game?

Little to none. They both direct you to a third party and you can do their respective quests without any interference from the other side.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I finished the game last night and this has to be the worst turn-based combat experience I've ever had (end game spoilers)

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/sMHCrTr.jpg I had to go through around 5 rounds of that mob rotation and keep in mind the performance of the game is sketchy at the best of times...

Overall I enjoyed my time with the game and the focus on a couple of story-rich locations was a nice change of pace from the grand exploration of Pillars or the endless combat of Tyranny. However, it doesn't hold a candle to the original. All of the companions are forgettable, the setting doesn't feel anywhere near as fantastical and whilst the writing of the game is suitably floral it didn't ever leave me feeling much of an impact. I'd also say that the front half of the game is significantly better than the back half.

 

[Durante]

To be fair, discussing combat systems in depth here seems almost OT, since I've played Torment for over 3 hours now and only fought the tutorial "battle".

The companions, at least so far, are a much bigger issue.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Just did my first crisis since the tutorial. I've always been on team Turn Based, but I think I've changed my mind for this game.

I did the Crisis by using stealth on my whole team and doing some environmental stuff to end it, didn't engage in any actual combat. However since the whole thing was turn based I'd move my guys around a bit then have to sit through 20+ enemies all skipping their turns because they couldn't see me, every freaking turn. What should have taken a minute took like half an hour.

Game shouldn't have switched to combat mode if there wasn't real combat. That's the problem.

 

[decoyplatypus]

The companions, at least so far, are a much bigger issue.

Which companions are you rolling with? My early impressions of three of the six were pretty positive (the last three you'll meet in a normal playthrough). I am starting to worry they won't have much to say about the last castoff, the Ninth World, or the situation at hand, but it's only been a few hours (and I've only activated one personal quest, so far as I can tell).

 

[Randomizer123454444]

I'm peeved that the game cut me off from two side quests that I had completed but not returned, without warning me. The "hint" I got on loading screen said that "if someone warns you should finish your business before doing X then you might etc". It made be think that there is always a warning before a point-of-no-return in main plot. But no, either I accidentally skipped the text saying or I didn't see it, or there was no warning. Because I was doing what I thought was a routine talk to an NPC in middle of an area and BOOM it turned into a sequence of events that forced me out of the area.

Oh well it was only two side quests. I can live without those I guess. Still annoyed, it seems like I have to start being very thorough about completing side quests and hold off doing anything main mission related until last possible seconds.

edit-- normally loading a save would fix this but I would lose hours of game time in this case, because of my last save that isn't autosave or quicksave is so far off. I guess I'll have to do it, and save manually into a new slot every 10 minutes instead of using a quicksave.