Support NeoGAF

[Boogie]

Paging boogie

okay:

Pretty scary all around. Will wait to see the final report on it, but shooting someone being held down point blank never sounds good.

Nowhere in the article does it state he was being held down when he was shot.

Please do not twist what limited information is available in the article.

Most of the article is just one random civilian witness rampantly speculating about excessive force. I don't give a rat's ass what some random dude on the street with no knowledge of the situation, nor of the law or policy behind police use of force, considers to be "excessive force", and I consider it sloppy and/or irresponsible journalism on the part of The Star to include that type of casual editorializing by Random Witness as part of the article.

 

[Boogie]

Then you have the witness Pritchard concern-trolling about "We've certainly had several disturbing incidents where officers have used excessive force against people with mental issues."

He has no idea that dealing with MHA's can be the most dangerous part of a police officer's job, because they are so likely to have violent outbursts, exhibit abnormal strength, immunity to pain, and be completely unresponsive to reasoning and verbal intervention.

So yes, MHA's do tend to end up subject to high levels of use of force. But that doesn't mean it is "excessive force". It means that those are the most dangerous, volatile scenarios in which officers unfortunately have to respond forcefully.

Keep in mind the article references both a stabbing 20 minutes beforehand, and injuries to one of the officers, so there was clearly a threat there.

Also keep in mind that I believe it is TPS policy that only supervisors have access to Tasers, so that might not have been a use of force option available to the officers on scene.

 

[EvilMario]

okay:
Nowhere in the article does it state he was being held down when he was shot.

Please do not twist what limited information is available in the article.

And I quote..

At that point, Pritchard said he saw a middle aged man, about 5 foot 8 with dark hair and wearing a blue shirt that looked like a hospital gown. There were five or six officers behind the man trying to grab or restrain him and another two or three officers in front of the man.

“And then I saw one officer raise his arm and fire at him point blank three shots,” said Pritchard, adding the shots were fired about two feet away from the man. He witnessed the shooting from where he stood on the sidewalk, about 30 feet away.

The man fell to the pavement and officers jumped on top of him, still trying to restrain him while his body was writhing, said Pritchard, adding the officers continued to do so until his body stopped moving.

Blame the reporting, or terrible eye witness accounts, or what I took from the article, but sounded like the officers on scene had him in their grasp, then shot him point blank. Of course an officer was injured and there were many unknowns, which is why I wanted to see what the story was in the end, but it appears I should just go pull poor 'lol, dumb cops' line, because your reaction is pretty much going to be the same. :/

 

[Boogie]

And I quote..



Blame the reporting, or terrible eye witness accounts, but what I took from the article would lead you to believe the police had him in their grasp and then shot him. Of course an officer was injured and there were many unknown, which is why I wanted to see what the story was in the end, but it appears I should just go pull poor 'lol, dumb cops' line, because your reaction is pretty much going to be the same. :/

You said "held down". "Held down" to me means that the man is grounded, and officers are on top of him holding him "down" with a measure of control over him when they shot him. That is not how the article describes it. The article seems to describe a standing struggle, in which the officers are "trying" to restrain him, not that they are successfully doing so. Your language was misleading.

 

[BladeWorker]

Blame the reporting, or terrible eye witness accounts, or what I took from the article, but sounded like the officers on scene had him in their grasp, then shot him point blank. Of course an officer was injured and there were many unknowns, which is why I wanted to see what the story was in the end, but it appears I should just go pull poor 'lol, dumb cops' line, because your reaction is pretty much going to be the same. :/

Okay, let's flip this around. Say a couple of the officers did have him in their grasp, but had not yet unhanded him of his scissors, which as a result of the grabbing, the fellow had reacted by gripping harder and swiping with the effort of stabbing or otherwise removing the officers from his person.

Still think you could just talk that guy down?

Bottom line is that we, not having been there, don't (and probably won't) know the whole story. No sense passing judgement on things we cannot know.

 

[Boogie]

Hey, here's a fun exercise.

Here's a police officer with extensive martial arts training and a size advantage who decided to go "hands on" with a subject with an edged weapon.

NSFW:

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/iamboog/KNIFE1.jpg

This is not abstract, hypothetical shit for us. This is the sort of thing I have to think about, the sort of thing where, when I put my gun on in the morning to go out on the street, I think "I am coming home tonight."

I myself have experienced a "shots fired" situation. My gruff, abrupt demeanour on this forum is not a product of me being a bully or an asshole, by nature. I am a nice, nerdy guy, by nature. My attitude on these topics is because I have faced, and understand, the potentially deadly threat that police officers face.

And with every use of force scenario that comes up on here, I present the perspective of someone who knows the law, and the psychology, and the stress, of a use of force situation.

I am NOT just being an ass who holds some sort of "police wall of silence", and if you characterize my posts that way, I do believe it says more about your position than it does mine.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

X-post from Gaming side:

So I'm in a lean management class right now and the current operations/shipping manager of Purolator is the one teaching. I just realized how much GAF hates Purolator for their shitty service. Want me to ask any specific question or provide any specific comment?

 

[BladeWorker]

So we're facing another labour disruption in the coming weeks in Toronto. The Star posted a less-than-their-usual-hyperbole Q&A about what you might expect if something goes through.

So is there going to be a strike or lockout this weekend?

Nothing is certain as negotiations are still underway, but speaking with city, political and union sources it does not appear a work stoppage is going to happen Sunday or even Monday. What’s going to happen is that as of Sunday, if a deal can’t be reached, the city will impose “terms of conditions,” which basically means unionized staff will arrive to work under new, city-designed provisions. The city is not going to lock them out. The union could choose to strike and refuse to work under those new conditions, but it would take several days to hold a strike vote. Even then: the union is highly reluctant to go on strike and lose public support. Bottomline: it would be extremely unlikely for anything to start until mid-next week at the earliest.

 

[added_time]

Toronto photo of the day:

 

[EvilMario]

Skywalk does produce some awesome photos.

 

[Nobility]

Got to love the Skywalk, especially when the Jays win big against teams like Yankees/Red Sox.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Hey, here's a fun exercise.

Here's a police officer with extensive martial arts training and a size advantage who decided to go "hands on" with a subject with an edged weapon.

NSFW:

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/iamboog/KNIFE1.jpg

This is not abstract, hypothetical shit for us. This is the sort of thing I have to think about, the sort of thing where, when I put my gun on in the morning to go out on the street, I think "I am coming home tonight."

I myself have experienced a "shots fired" situation. My gruff, abrupt demeanour on this forum is not a product of me being a bully or an asshole, by nature. I am a nice, nerdy guy, by nature. My attitude on these topics is because I have faced, and understand, the potentially deadly threat that police officers face.

And with every use of force scenario that comes up on here, I present the perspective of someone who knows the law, and the psychology, and the stress, of a use of force situation.

I am NOT just being an ass who holds some sort of "police wall of silence", and if you characterize my posts that way, I do believe it says more about your position than it does mine.

he survived that? damn

 

[Anony]

Hey, here's a fun exercise.

Here's a police officer with extensive martial arts training and a size advantage who decided to go "hands on" with a subject with an edged weapon.

NSFW:

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/iamboog/KNIFE1.jpg

This is not abstract, hypothetical shit for us. This is the sort of thing I have to think about, the sort of thing where, when I put my gun on in the morning to go out on the street, I think "I am coming home tonight."

I myself have experienced a "shots fired" situation. My gruff, abrupt demeanour on this forum is not a product of me being a bully or an asshole, by nature. I am a nice, nerdy guy, by nature. My attitude on these topics is because I have faced, and understand, the potentially deadly threat that police officers face.

And with every use of force scenario that comes up on here, I present the perspective of someone who knows the law, and the psychology, and the stress, of a use of force situation.

I am NOT just being an ass who holds some sort of "police wall of silence", and if you characterize my posts that way, I do believe it says more about your position than it does mine.

take us through (on why you think) the officer(s) shoot multiple times at point blank, when they could/should have shot in the arm or legs to immobilize him
and that question, i'd say, pertains to most fatal police shootings

 

[BigJonsson]

Got to love the Skywalk, especially when the Jays win big against teams like Yankees/Red Sox.

I remember how crazy it was in there in 1991-1994ish

 

[Fuzzy]

I remember how crazy it was in there in 1991-1994ish

During that time I was going to 10-15 games a year with my dad. It was an awesome time to be a baseball fan here.

 

[Beez]

During that time I was going to 10-15 games a year with my dad. It was an awesome time to be a baseball fan here.

I remember going to ball games with dad as a kid. Those were good times. My dad told me after the strike in the mid 90s when they cancelled the World Series he stopped watching baseball.

 

[EvilMario]

Speaking of towers like were yesterday, this is the Four Seasons (shot from Urban Toronto) yesterday. Turned out better than I thought it might. I like it a lot.

And this is a shot of Aura, my 'most anticipated' building going up in Toronto. Should have quite the impact on Yonge St, and the skyline.. although I have missed College Park.

Mean while at the aquarium..

 

[BladeWorker]

Nice to see that progress is being made. I wonder what will happen, though, if they discover (once constructed) that they missed *one* pipe in the matrix.

 

[Dr.Acula]

take us through (on why you think) the officer(s) shoot multiple times at point blank, when they could/should have shot in the arm or legs to immobilize him
and that question, i'd say, pertains to most fatal police shootings

The problem with what you're saying is that real life is not like the movies. It's hard to hit people in the extremities, especially when they're legs that are running, or arms that are flailing. Centre mass is staying centre mass. Also, if you hit someone in the limb, it's not going to drop them. If someone is within 5-6 metres and they're charging, hitting them in the shoulder isn't going to do shit. Further to this, hitting them in the torso only once, may or may not do shit.

I don't know the particulars of this case, but I do believe that people in police/military service are trained to fire until the threat goes down.

It's also worth mentioning that breaking training can bring about discipline, and that if an officer shoots you in the arm, you can sue them, because it shows the officer did not feel that their life was in danger. That they shot you in order to control you, and not protect themselves.

It's not that these officers may have made bad decisions, it's that they've made no decisions. Their training took over.

I heard a program on the CBC a while back, can't recall it, but they were talking about police and dealing with the mentally ill. How nurses and doctors would deal with patients in attempts to de-escalate the situation. Sometimes the patient was too violent or out of control and police would need to be called in. All their training resulted in an escalation. Their loud and clear commands were too urgent and too demanding of quick and sometimes confusing actions (put the knife down, AND put my hands above my head?). Doctors and nurses were said to be working with police on how to handle people with mental health issues, people that may be more of a danger to themselves than others. Unfortunately this kind of training is time-consuming and expensive.

 

[added_time]

And this is a shot of Aura, my 'most anticipated' building going up in Toronto. Should have quite the impact on Yonge St, and the skyline..

You probably already know this, but Aura just had a 3-storey height increase approved by the city.
So now there will be 78 floors and a total height of 893 feet. That will make Aura the 4th tallest building in Toronto after First Canadian Place, Trump Tower and Scotia Plaza. (it will be the 5th tallest if you count the CN Tower as a building obviously)

Since it will be so tall, I really hope Aura turns out nicely. I was very worried because Residences of College Park have kinda cheap looking cladding but so far the glass being installed on Aura looks very promising. As long as the tower is treated like the podium - it should be nice.

 

[EvilMario]

You probably already know this, but Aura just had a 3-storey height increase approved by the city.
So now there will be 78 floors and a total height of 893 feet. That will make Aura the 4th tallest building in Toronto after First Canadian Place, Trump Tower and Scotia Plaza. (it will be the 5th tallest if you count the CN Tower as a building obviously)

Since it will be so tall, I really hope Aura turns out nicely. I was very worried because Residences of College Park have kinda cheap looking cladding but so far the glass being installed on Aura looks very promising. As long as the tower is treated like the podium - it should be nice.

Yeah, it'll be nice. When Aura was still in the beginning phases, it seemed like it went from anything around 600ft to over 1000ft. What they have planned is pretty nice though. I really hope the city does overcome its fear of really tall buildings. A city like San Francisco has avoided a lot of tall development for four decades (although that's now changing) because of earthquakes, but Toronto just seems to have a NIMBY attitude in regards to super-talls.

 

[Pyke Presco]

take us through (on why you think) the officer(s) shoot multiple times at point blank, when they could/should have shot in the arm or legs to immobilize him
and that question, i'd say, pertains to most fatal police shootings

Assuming that police officers are taught anything like we are in the military (which I'm going to say is probably pretty likely), then you aim centre of mass because that is the most likely area to hit. Shooting people in the kneecap or the hand, while all well and good if you're watching a movie, is not at all how we are trained. You aim for the chest, because it is the easiest part of the body to hit. It doesn't move as erratically as a limb and it is much, much larger. General fire practice that we were taught in basic training is a double tap, two shots in very quick succession, spaced out in whatever the rate of fire called for is.

Assuming that police officers are trained in a similar fashion to us, two or three shots to centre torso is pretty much the By-the-Book answer on how to use your firearm.

Similarly to our Rules of Engagement, I am assuming that when a situation has escalated to lethal force with a police officer, you don't piss around and try to disarm the guy by shooting his hand to make him drop a knife, or shooting him in the leg to make him walk slower and be able to deal with him then. When people get violent and life threatening, your primary focus is ensuring the safety of all others around this violent individual. You shoot to kill/incapacitate. When the situation has got to that point, and we have been authorized to use lethal force, there is no more fucking around and trying to de-escalate the situation with conversation and non-lethal solutions like tear gas, tazers or batons. If we have been authorized to use lethal force, and the situation calls for it due to the prevailing circumstances and your understanding of your RoEs, then you make that decision when the time comes. I can't say 100% that things are exactly the same between the CF and the RCMP or local police forces, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were, or if they shared 80-90% of the same general principles on escalation of force.

 

[added_time]

A city like San Francisco has avoided a lot of tall development for four decades (although that's now changing) because of earthquakes, but Toronto just seems to have a NIMBY attitude in regards to super-talls.

Maybe for the absolute tallest but Toronto is definitely no stranger to high-rise buildings. Here is a statistic from the Economist:

"In total, 173 skyscrapers are being built in Toronto, the most in North America. New York is second with 96."

 

[Roto13]

The problem with what you're saying is that real life is not like the movies.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder how many people who say things like "Shoot him in the leg!" live in a fantasy world. Like "Why didn't you just ricochet a bullet off a wall so it knocks a knife out of his hand! Hmm!? HMMM!?!?!"

 

[EvilMario]

Maybe for the absolute tallest but Toronto is definitely no stranger to high-rise buildings. Here is a statistic from the Economist:

"In total, 173 skyscrapers are being built in Toronto, the most in North America. New York is second with 96."

Definitely, there's a ton of development in Toronto. But there seems to be something of a fear against buildings exceeding certain range other cities don't mind building in (like the 800ft plus range). Trump (even if ugly) and Aura are nice steps, but I'd love to see a few 1,000-1,200 range skyscrapers. Seems like every building proposed gets cut down by about 25% of the original height / floor count.

 

[Takao]

dat cupe deadline extension

 

[Represent.]

I read an article stating they're trying to introduce a rule where they couldn't go above 270m or something.

I don't ever expect Toronto to get a building taller than (or even close to) the CN Tower again, but I'd be satisfied with something in the 300-350M range. Also, they need to stop building fucking boxes. So many of the condos going up are big boxes.

Aura will look amazing once its done though

Trump Tower is ugly imo, well not ugly but just hugely uninspired.

It looked much better in its initial concept.

 

[firehawk12]

Toronto photo of the day:

The worst part of the Skywalk was when they basically killed all the small businesses that were there. I haven't been down there in a while, but I assume the whole thing is still just a barren, dystopic pathway.

 

[ZZMitch]

Just got $30 tickets to a Raptors game on February 10th. I have never been to an NBA game before, but for the price I couldn't really say no. They are playing the Celtics too and I am from New England so that was another reason to go.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Just got $30 tickets to a Raptors game on February 10th. I have never been to an NBA game before, but for the price I couldn't really say no. They are playing the Celtics too and I am from New England so that was another reason to go.

Who you cheering for?!

 

[Quick]

The worst part of the Skywalk was when they basically killed all the small businesses that were there. I haven't been down there in a while, but I assume the whole thing is still just a barren, dystopic pathway.

I feel like I'm walking through a church there, unless there's a Jays game.

 

[EvilMario]

The City and CUPE are apparently still in talks as I type this.. at.. 3:27am.

I hope this means a deal is coming..

 

[Takao]

A blast from nostalgia past:

Ever wonder what happened to YTV's PJ Fresh Phil and Snit? Well, RogersTV has the answer.

 

[BigJonsson]

Just got $30 tickets to a Raptors game on February 10th. I have never been to an NBA game before, but for the price I couldn't really say no. They are playing the Celtics too and I am from New England so that was another reason to go.

Nice, I might go to that game too

My friend won season tickets for the year

I'm going to the Lakers game next Sunday.......fuck yea

 

[firehawk12]

A blast from nostalgia past:

http://i.imgur.com/WWJFf.jpg

Ever wonder what happened to YTV's PJ Fresh Phil and Snit? Well, RogersTV has the answer.

Wow... well, why not I suppose. All the other ex PJ's went on to work in the US though.

I feel like I'm walking through a church there, unless there's a Jays game.

I would guess that's why the stores closed. Although with the games, you'd think there'd be some foot traffic and whatnot.

 

[EvilMario]

Strike averted!

The City of Toronto and its 6,000 outside workers have reached a tentative deal after months of hard bargaining that ended in marathon overnight talks.

On Sunday morning, Mayor Rob Ford said he was “extremely happy we have been able to reach this agreement without a labour disruption. I’m also confident we have a tentative agreement the city council will approve.”

The two sides will meet Monday morning to finalize the details of the tentative deal, according to Mark Ferguson, president of CUPE Local 416.

“We are extremely excited that in fact we were able to resolve this through direct negotiation and, quite frankly, my members are pleased that they will be able to continue to provide great public services to Toronto,” said a bleary-eyed Ferguson around 8:30 a.m.

“We did it through tireless work,” that involved the union making “numerous concessions,” Ferguson said, adding that the talks were likely among the toughest in Canadian labour history.

Terms of the tentative deal won’t be revealed until after the union’s members have a ratification vote, he said. That will likely take place later this week.

Ferguson said he had felt that city negotiators didn’t want to make a deal.

“That has been proved wrong. They did want to get a deal after all.”

Deputy Mayor Doug Holyday said in a statement issued Sunday morning that he was “pleased that we have been able to reach an agreement that is fair for the employees and reasonable and affordable for the taxpayers of Toronto.”

“Better yet, we will be better positioned to deliver efficient services to the residents and businesses of Toronto,” he said.

The administration went into the talks saying it intended to reverse too-generous contracts awarded in the past that prevented the municipal government — bigger than that of many provinces, with a $9.4 billion annual budget — from becoming more efficient and providing proper value for taxpayers.

Among the administration’s main targets were ironclad job security that prevented permanent workers from losing their jobs due to contracting out or technological innovation and what it called overly complicated and expensive “bumping” procedures when there were staff cuts.

Ford has said he wants to shrink the 50,000-strong workforce by about 7,000 positions. More than 1,100 workers classified as temporary face layoffs as a result of the recently passed 2012 operating budget.

On Friday, the administration released a list of demands that included erasing job security for any worker with less than 22 years’ experience. The chief negotiator warned that CUPE had to accept a deal or see the new contract imposed on its members at 12:01 a.m. Sunday.

In a statement, Ferguson said: “Throughout the process we have provided the City with many efficiencies and creative solutions to extremely difficult problems. There is no doubt that our members are making sacrifices.

“We are going to keep working to finalize a deal that gives the City flexibility and affordability while still delivering great public services.”

The terms of the new deal are expected to set the stage for ongoing talks with more than 20,000 inside workers, community centre staff and library workers.

 

[added_time]

Good morning, gang!

That is good news about the strike! Also, the Leafs absolutely spanked Ottawa last night!

.. and here is the Toronto photo of the day:

 

[ZZMitch]

Who you cheering for?!

Celtics, sorry! My friend who from Boston is coming too.

 

[criesofthepast]

Good morning, gang!

That is good news about the strike! Also, the Leafs absolutely spanked Ottawa last night!

.. and here is the Toronto photo of the day:

I may have missed it but where are you getting these photos? They're really nice.

 

[added_time]

I may have missed it but where are you getting these photos? They're really nice.

Right here. New photos posted all the time:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=143407&page=365

I will continue to post one a day in this thread if people like them!

 

[crimzonflame]

Go Giants!

 

[EvilMario]

Go Giants!

My man.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Maybe for the absolute tallest but Toronto is definitely no stranger to high-rise buildings. Here is a statistic from the Economist:

"In total, 173 skyscrapers are being built in Toronto, the most in North America. New York is second with 96."

I noticed this stat in an article discussing bankers' concern with Canada's real estate market. They compared this number with a similarly sized city, Chicago, having 17 under construction. Pretty crazy gap.

I'd love to know what Vancouver's number is, as it is often cited along with Toronto as also having a hot market. I know that in addition to the usual plethora of condos in development there's a number of commercial developments gearing up for downtown.

 

[added_time]

I noticed this stat in an article discussing bankers' concern with Canada's real estate market. They compared this number with a similarly sized city, Chicago, having 17 under construction. Pretty crazy gap.

Yes that statistic was from that article. It isn't much of a prediction that the real estate market will cool eventually if you keep building more and more condos. That much is obvious. I strongly disagree with the notion that a crash in the real estate market would drag down the entire Canadian economy though. It wasn't just the cooling real estate market that soured the US economy. The fact that mortgages were being given to people that could never pay them was much more damaging for the US and the rules in Canada are much more strict in that way.

Also, the comparison with Chicago would seem to make sense on the surface since they are about the same size at this moment. However, the population of Chicago has been dropping every year since 1950 and the population of Toronto has been increasing every year since 1950. So, one city is consistently declining while the other is consistently growing which would help explain why Toronto would be building much more.

 

[added_time]

I'd love to know what Vancouver's number is, as it is often cited along with Toronto as also having a hot market. I know that in addition to the usual plethora of condos in development there's a number of commercial developments gearing up for downtown.

Vancouver has 9 buildings under construction right now.
http://www.emporis.com/city/vancouver-canada


The same site puts the Toronto number at 178
http://www.emporis.com/city/toronto-canada

 

[Tiktaalik]

Yes that statistic was from that article. It isn't much of a prediction that the real estate market will cool eventually if you keep building more and more condos. That much is obvious. I strongly disagree with the notion that a crash in the real estate market would drag down the entire Canadian economy though. It wasn't just the cooling real estate market that soured the US economy. The fact that mortgages were being given to people that could never pay them was much more damaging for the US and the rules in Canada are much more strict in that way.

Also, the comparison with Chicago would seem to make sense on the surface since they are about the same size at this moment. However, the population of Chicago has been dropping every year since 1950 and the population of Toronto has been increasing every year since 1950. So, one city is consistently declining while the other is consistently growing which would help explain why Toronto would be building much more.

I also disagree with the idea that there'll be a huge crash but I did find the stat amazing nonetheless. I didn't know that Chicago was a city on the decline so I can see where that number is coming from then.

 

[Tiktaalik]

wow 9 vs 178.

Calgary also 9, Montreal 7. wtf is going on in Toronto lol.

 

[added_time]

I didn't know that Chicago was a city on the decline so I can see where that number is coming from then.

Chicago has lost 1 million people since 1950. Crazy, right?

 

[AlphaTwo00]

wow 9 vs 178.

Calgary also 9, Montreal 7. wtf is going on in Toronto lol.

Can you spell BUBBLE?

 

[added_time]

Can you spell BUBBLE?

It's good for people like me! I'm waiting for the big crash so I can buy a condo unit on the cheap! I just want somewhere to live anyways. Not for investment.