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Transformers |OT| Transform and roll out...
- Thread starter Mike M
- Start date
Weltall Zero
Member
Volume 5 is indeed amazing, Remain in Light is one of my three favorite MTMTE arcs (my other two being Shadowplay and Elegant Chaos). It's meant to be so, since it's the season 1 finale.
Man, I keep saying it, but MTMTE is just so good. Even remembering it fills me with joy.
Man, I keep saying it, but MTMTE is just so good. Even remembering it fills me with joy.
Haloid1177
Banned
Dark Cybertron wasn't great. Not a big fan of the RID characters and it was over the top with action a lot of the time. Loving where it took MTMTE though. Gonna finish vol. 6 tonight.
Amazon Canada seems to be having serious trouble sourcing my Transformers The Movie steelbook. I had it pre-ordered for months, but the site's listed it as temporarily unavailable since release day. Anyone ever tried asking their territory's Amazon to order an item from Amazon.com on the customer's behalf? Because the disc has been in stock there since it came out, and the only reason I've not ordered it direct is the price. I dropped them a line, and I'm sure I'll be told it's a supplier issue, but it'll be interesting if they do offer to import it from the States for me.
Edit: Huh! They told me to order it from Amazon.com at the fastest shipping speed, and they'll reimburse me the difference with store credit. Even covering the import fees! Very impressed. Can't wait to finally see this movie in all its remastered glory.
Edit: Huh! They told me to order it from Amazon.com at the fastest shipping speed, and they'll reimburse me the difference with store credit. Even covering the import fees! Very impressed. Can't wait to finally see this movie in all its remastered glory.
Who would have thought Final Fantasy would do him in?
Haloid1177
Banned
MMC Carnifex processing at BBTS so excited.
Same here. Waiting for me is going to be a pain because I went with the cheap option (>.<)
Who else here bought everyone's favorite psychotic Phase Sixer?
Hasbro announces BotCon replacement, HASCON:
http://hascon.hasbro.com/
Real mixed feelings on this. I'm glad there will be an official convention, and I also like some of their other properties (Magic), but I would greatly prefer a convention focused on TFs only.
http://hascon.hasbro.com/
Real mixed feelings on this. I'm glad there will be an official convention, and I also like some of their other properties (Magic), but I would greatly prefer a convention focused on TFs only.
HammerOfThor
Member
If they don't allow outside vendors, my chance of attending will go from 30% -> 0%.
Haloid1177
Banned
GuyKazama
Member
3rd party was already banned from Botcon. Just wish this was TF only -- though I'd be ok if they toss MASK in there.
BattleMonkey
Member
This was expected, the GI Joe collectors club which is run by the same company that did Botcon, was expected to lose the license but got a short extension recently. That should be coming to an end now too with Hascon.
Be interesting to see how this does, as Botcon and Joecon were never huge events, and were not officially ran by Hasbro, just licensed conventions they supported. Now these will be Hasbro's own convention.
Actually kinda interested to see how this pans out, I love GI Joe and TF, so them together now in an official con could be interesting, and also looking forward to see how the return of MASK pans outs. Really MLP is only major turn off about the con to me.
Be interesting to see how this does, as Botcon and Joecon were never huge events, and were not officially ran by Hasbro, just licensed conventions they supported. Now these will be Hasbro's own convention.
Actually kinda interested to see how this pans out, I love GI Joe and TF, so them together now in an official con could be interesting, and also looking forward to see how the return of MASK pans outs. Really MLP is only major turn off about the con to me.
HammerOfThor
Member
They may argue on message boards, but I've never seen an issue at Botcon or TFCon.
Haloid1177
Banned
Just finished issue 35 of MTMTE. This whole
is being handled better than it had any right to be.
split timeline Brainstorm time travel shit
Hell yeah. My TF 1986 steelbook just arrived. Really surprised to see that there's a seperate disc with a 4:3 version on it. Does anyone know why this is? It's 2016, I can't believe the 4:3 version is here for people with SD TVs.
Edit: Now I see. For anyone else who didn't know:
I'll be watching in widescreen, since Shin purposefully framed the movie for theatre screens. The extra information at the top and bottom of each animation cell was intended to be lopped off, and only existed because the movie was filmed on 35mm stock. If the movie was hard matted, as many movies initially filmed on 35mm stock were, that artwork would simply be gone - trimmed away like so much fat during the final editing process. It's only here today because the movie was soft matted, likely to expediate the home video release. In other words, we're not supposed to see it: a hard matted version would have been filmed on 35mm stock, cut down for the cinema, and then cropped again (vertically) or converted to pan and scan - losing information the director did intend viewers to see - in order to create a fullscreen version to fill 4:3 TV screens. Which sounds completely nuts, but I guess that's how they rolled in the pre-digital era. I'll probably watch the 4:3 version for curiosity's sake when I watch again with the commentary. Very glad they included both versions: one with the director's cinematic framing in mind; one with all the art that was actually animated. Fascinating stuff.
Edit: Now I see. For anyone else who didn't know:
Wikipedia said:
I'll be watching in widescreen, since Shin purposefully framed the movie for theatre screens. The extra information at the top and bottom of each animation cell was intended to be lopped off, and only existed because the movie was filmed on 35mm stock. If the movie was hard matted, as many movies initially filmed on 35mm stock were, that artwork would simply be gone - trimmed away like so much fat during the final editing process. It's only here today because the movie was soft matted, likely to expediate the home video release. In other words, we're not supposed to see it: a hard matted version would have been filmed on 35mm stock, cut down for the cinema, and then cropped again (vertically) or converted to pan and scan - losing information the director did intend viewers to see - in order to create a fullscreen version to fill 4:3 TV screens. Which sounds completely nuts, but I guess that's how they rolled in the pre-digital era. I'll probably watch the 4:3 version for curiosity's sake when I watch again with the commentary. Very glad they included both versions: one with the director's cinematic framing in mind; one with all the art that was actually animated. Fascinating stuff.
This is all wrong. It has nothing to do with 35mm stock or any of that, you don't animate a bunch of extra stuff that's never going to be seen, that's a waste of money. It was animated in 4:3 because it was intended to play on TV more than in theaters, as they knew it would live in syndication as part of the cartoon series as a 5-part weeklong block, and nobody except some classic movie channels showed 16:9 letterboxed content on broadcast back then. So they animated it in 4:3 intentionally so it would look good on TV without having to pan & scan it, and just matted it in theaters for the sake of presentation. Knowing this was the case, Shin made sure it would play in 16:9 without losing anything vital from the matting, but the extra picture was there on purpose for TV showings.
It was always planned to be shown both ways. Thus, there's no way it's "meant" to be seen, really, but the 4:3 version contains more picture information, so that is by most metrics the superior version.
Gotcha - so TV was more in their minds than was typical. I'm just going by what I read at the link with the 35mm stuff. Overscan is animating extra stuff that's never going to be seen, so the idea that frequently more content was animated than was needed made sense to me - otherwise directors would frame all animation with black bars (assuming they needed to fill space on the stock with something).
Regardless, I'd bet that the guy making the six million dollar movie intended to be screened in theatres would tilt his framing in favour of the cinematic showings, even if he expected it to get the most play when chopped up and shown on TV. The movie looks nothing like the cartoon in terms of cinematography, and I'd imagine that extends to its framing. Has Shin ever commented on this?
The way you can tell is that there's stuff happening in the space that was matted over for 16:9. For overscan in animation you just need to make a background that extends beyond 16:9, you don't have to do a full 4:3 background, let alone animate stuff happening there. Sunbow knew their bread and butter was going to be in reruns and VHS, and that kids don't know or care about 16:9 preservation, or at least didn't in 1986.
I don't think he has, but obviously in that situation you would make sure the important action is in the 16:9 frame. Still, stuff is going on beyond the 16:9 borders, and that extra animation work makes the 4:3 version worth watching and worth preserving. I originally saw the film in theaters when it was released but when I watch it now I generally do watch the 4:3 version so I can see everything.
Of course! That was the piece I was missing - makes perfect sense.
It's one of those things I'd love a director to weigh in on. If he's watching the movie in 2016 on a 16:9 TV, does he like his picture to be framed as it would have been in a theatre, or in the way which displays all the animation he included for TV? As I say, I'd suspect the former, but there's no way to know.
But watching TF 1986 in 4:3 would make it fit beautifully with the other movies-released-as-episodes that weren't intended for theatrical release. I'd love to be able to buy the feature length presentation of Desertion of the Dinobots that I used to own on VHS as a remastered Blu-ray. Same with Five Faces of Darkness - give me a nice new version that's not split into several parts. Those episodes have higher quality animation than was typical for the show, and they're the ones I return to the most when I'm in the mood to rewatch the original series. And obviously they were never designed to be cropped into 16:9; I'd only ever want to watch them in 4:3.
As Nelson Shin was an animation person first and foremost, I suspect it would be the latter, to display the animators' work fully. It was matted for theatrical viewing by necessity more than anything else.
But framing is key too. The movie is very different in terms of how shots and scenes are constructed to the cartoon. I can't watch TF The Movie and not feel that it was made primarily with cinema viewers in mind, and if I'm directing a movie for the theatre, I'm framing it for the theatre, even if I'm making sure it'll translate well to 4:3 at the same time. That's not to say you're not wrong - I could see the man himself feeling either way, or even having different opinions depending on what he wanted to get from a specific viewing on a given day.
I'm a big film snob when it comes to 16:9 vs 4:3 versions, and got in many arguments over pan & scan vs. letterboxing back in the VHS days on USENET (so many useless letterboxed VHS movies in the storage unit...I should purge that stuff), but I don't see what you're seeing in TF:TM. It doesn't feel overly directed for 16:9 at all to me beyond making sure the bulk of the action isn't cut off by the matting (and even then it does get cut off noticeably several times), and the 4:3 version doesn't feel like it has much dead space. Even in shots that are ostensibly taking advantage of the wide format, like the attack on the shuttle near the beginning, you're still losing picture and animation of the characters that's being cut off. The whole point of the "keep it 16:9" argument back in the day was that pan & scan caused you to lose picture, not that 16:9 was somehow automatically better or more theatrical. In the case of TF:TM, I don't see much to recommend the 16:9 cut over the 4:3 cut, as the 16:9 cut gives you less picture with no real advantage in trade. Speculating on what the director would want is a red herring, as we don't know, but the one concrete thing that can be said in comparing them is that the 4:3 version literally gives you more movie.
It was matted 16:9 for theaters because it had to be. Theaters haven't shown 4:3 regularly since the '50s. It wasn't a creative choice or a directorial preference, it was what had to be done to show it in theaters. Clearly Shin made sure nobody's head got cut off by the matting, but to say that's how it's meant to be seen is a stretch, IMO.
It was matted 16:9 for theaters because it had to be. Theaters haven't shown 4:3 regularly since the '50s. It wasn't a creative choice or a directorial preference, it was what had to be done to show it in theaters. Clearly Shin made sure nobody's head got cut off by the matting, but to say that's how it's meant to be seen is a stretch, IMO.
It just hit me that MP Primal is coming this month, but I'll have to forgo him for a few months after my recent purchase and upcoming preorders that I give more priority.
I don't think you can get better than amazon, especially with a recent release.
I don't think you can get better than amazon, especially with a recent release.
Sure, you do get more information on screen, but you're ignoring framing completely. The pan and scan thing became about cutting off information (because that was egregious!), but information is only important when it's content a director wants his audience to see. In the case of pan and scan, the information was in the director's original shots, which happened to be in various wide-screen aspect ratios. But if a director was forced to film in 4:3 despite wanting his movie to be framed in 16:9, he's going to film it with matting in mind, and frame it accordingly. That extra information top and bottom may exist on the film, but it's superfluous.
Shin might not have a choice - he was likely told "we're filming this so it'll work on TV, but it has to be cut into 16:9 for the theatres" - but just because he animated content he knew would only be seen on people's TVs, that doesn't mean he didn't direct the movie primarily with wide-screen framing in mind.
As you say, we don't know. For all I know, he might have really loved 4:3 as an aspect ratio and regretted losing information when the movie was shown in theatres. But to my mind, it seems more likely that he shot this movie primarily for the theatres rather than primarily for TV. Just my guess.
I think you're seeing what you want to see with the framing. In the 16:9 version, even the opening shot is hampered by losing so much of the top and bottom of Unicron as he passes by. I went back and put the 16:9 version in earlier (already watched the 4:3 disc last week) and I think the 16:9 version looks noticeably cramped much of the time compared to the 4:3 version. Most noticeably, characters often have no headroom in the 16:9 shots, sometimes getting part of the top of their head cut off, which you never want to do unless it's for a specific reason. A lot of shots work well in 16:9 but overall the film has a claustrophobic look to me in that ratio.
For instance, here Bumblebee has no headroom at all. His horns are crashing the top of the frame, which is not at all a conventional way to frame a shot like this. His hand is also breaking frame at the bottom of the screen in an awkward way. It's weirdly confining.
Compare to the 4:3 version, which is more open and gives Bumblebee proper head space, appropriate for the shot showing the two kid-friendly characters from the show in a positive and upbeat scene.
Here we have Megatron popping out of frame in his dramatic closeup, which might be intentional but if it were I'd think it would be closer in. You'd want to push further in to cut more of his head off to indicate it was an intentional choice and to create a more "you can't get away from him" feeling.
The 4:3 version shows his whole head, while still cutting off his gun barrel to keep it close in and with him filling the frame to get the point across. In addition, the 4:3 shot gives a better overall impression of Megatron being very badly damaged, lending credibility to Prime's big punch laying him out in the next shot.
Some more examples of what I'm talking about in terms of the 16:9 version being unintentionally confining or claustrophobic:
Hot Rod's head bumps the top of the frame for no reason.
Megatron's head goes out of frame for no reason.
Megatron bumping the top of the frame again.
And again.
Ratchet's firing pistols, the primary foreground action of the shot, repeatedly break the top of the frame, meaning we can't even see the laser being fired, which would qualify as a special effect and thus cost extra money. There's no way this would be covered up if it didn't have to be.
And perhaps most damning of all, the big moment of the film, Optimus Prime's death, is absolutely staged with a 4:3 frame in mind. There are numerous ways this could have used the widescreen format, but instead this is a very vertical shot, with Prime almost fully upright in the frame. It's so vertical that Magnus and Hot Rod are crashing the top of the frame, although to be fair Magnus is so tall and so unimportant to the focus of the shot that this is incidental. But there's no inherent reason to position Prime and everyone else like this. I think it's telling that the key emotional punch scene of the film shows almost no interest in the wide framing at all.
Comparing the two versions gives me a strong impression that Shin was more comfortable in the 4:3 ratio but had to work with the 16:9 ratio as best he could. Some of the shots are inspired and really take advantage of that framing, but a lot of them are also made more awkward or badly framed by it, too. In the end, I will probably default to the 4:3 version more often than not, and I would think that since 4:3 is the ratio Sunbow expected it to be seen in most often (probably forever, given that it was planned to have far more longevity as a TV rerun and a VHS release than as a theatrical release), that's the one that was favored in terms of framing overall. Most kids who were fans saw this once in 16:9 and probably a dozen times 4:3, and Sunbow knew that was going to be the case. I maintain it was primarily directed with that in mind, while attempting to just make sure most of it fit in the widescreen framing adequately.
And of course let's not forget that we're probably both wrong to some degree. I mean we're talking about a movie that miscolors Frenzy and Rumble even with a $6 million budget, added an extra Cyclonus to one shot for no apparent reason ("His Armada"), and forgets a Dinobot through the whole picture with the exception of two brief shots. I think ascribing a ton of carefully planned directorial intent to the film is probably overthinking it on both our parts. If we're honest, it's probably more likely that they just wanted to get this shit done, and could not have cared less about the aspect ratio as long as it gets out the door on time.
For instance, here Bumblebee has no headroom at all. His horns are crashing the top of the frame, which is not at all a conventional way to frame a shot like this. His hand is also breaking frame at the bottom of the screen in an awkward way. It's weirdly confining.
Compare to the 4:3 version, which is more open and gives Bumblebee proper head space, appropriate for the shot showing the two kid-friendly characters from the show in a positive and upbeat scene.
Here we have Megatron popping out of frame in his dramatic closeup, which might be intentional but if it were I'd think it would be closer in. You'd want to push further in to cut more of his head off to indicate it was an intentional choice and to create a more "you can't get away from him" feeling.
The 4:3 version shows his whole head, while still cutting off his gun barrel to keep it close in and with him filling the frame to get the point across. In addition, the 4:3 shot gives a better overall impression of Megatron being very badly damaged, lending credibility to Prime's big punch laying him out in the next shot.
Some more examples of what I'm talking about in terms of the 16:9 version being unintentionally confining or claustrophobic:
Hot Rod's head bumps the top of the frame for no reason.
Megatron's head goes out of frame for no reason.
Megatron bumping the top of the frame again.
And again.
Ratchet's firing pistols, the primary foreground action of the shot, repeatedly break the top of the frame, meaning we can't even see the laser being fired, which would qualify as a special effect and thus cost extra money. There's no way this would be covered up if it didn't have to be.
And perhaps most damning of all, the big moment of the film, Optimus Prime's death, is absolutely staged with a 4:3 frame in mind. There are numerous ways this could have used the widescreen format, but instead this is a very vertical shot, with Prime almost fully upright in the frame. It's so vertical that Magnus and Hot Rod are crashing the top of the frame, although to be fair Magnus is so tall and so unimportant to the focus of the shot that this is incidental. But there's no inherent reason to position Prime and everyone else like this. I think it's telling that the key emotional punch scene of the film shows almost no interest in the wide framing at all.
Comparing the two versions gives me a strong impression that Shin was more comfortable in the 4:3 ratio but had to work with the 16:9 ratio as best he could. Some of the shots are inspired and really take advantage of that framing, but a lot of them are also made more awkward or badly framed by it, too. In the end, I will probably default to the 4:3 version more often than not, and I would think that since 4:3 is the ratio Sunbow expected it to be seen in most often (probably forever, given that it was planned to have far more longevity as a TV rerun and a VHS release than as a theatrical release), that's the one that was favored in terms of framing overall. Most kids who were fans saw this once in 16:9 and probably a dozen times 4:3, and Sunbow knew that was going to be the case. I maintain it was primarily directed with that in mind, while attempting to just make sure most of it fit in the widescreen framing adequately.
And of course let's not forget that we're probably both wrong to some degree. I mean we're talking about a movie that miscolors Frenzy and Rumble even with a $6 million budget, added an extra Cyclonus to one shot for no apparent reason ("His Armada"), and forgets a Dinobot through the whole picture with the exception of two brief shots. I think ascribing a ton of carefully planned directorial intent to the film is probably overthinking it on both our parts. If we're honest, it's probably more likely that they just wanted to get this shit done, and could not have cared less about the aspect ratio as long as it gets out the door on time.
You know what? You sold me. I haven't seen the movie in a while, but you're dead right about the spacing in the 16:9. It does feel claustrophobic in your examples, especially compared to the 4:3. The framing looks wrong. I think I'll skip the 16:9 disc after all; 4:3 really does feel like the intended aspect ratio. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out - sincerely appreciated, and I hope interesting for others to read too!
It should also be noted that the framing wasn't specifically meant for widescreen, it was a "worst of both worlds" combination of widescreen and overscan, both at the same time. It tries to stay away from (but bumps into and sometimes intrudes upon) the floor and ceiling of widescreen, but it also tries to stay away from (but bumps into and sometimes intrudes upon) the left and right walls of overscan.
IMO, the widescreen version is "fine" to watch on an HDTV, if that's your preference, but 4:3 has the whole picture.
Also, Aske mentioned "intended to be unseen" earlier, and I think that would only apply to the storyboards and the animation cels, where they sketched/painted outside of the lines (to ensure a clean cut). Everything on the DVD/Bluray is "inside the lines" and can reasonably be expected to be seen. Overscan was an inexact problem with CRT televisions, and better TVs showed more picture than worse ones did. The "overscan area" was just a generally-accepted guideline for a "safe zone" that was unlikely to be affected.
IMO, the widescreen version is "fine" to watch on an HDTV, if that's your preference, but 4:3 has the whole picture.
Also, Aske mentioned "intended to be unseen" earlier, and I think that would only apply to the storyboards and the animation cels, where they sketched/painted outside of the lines (to ensure a clean cut). Everything on the DVD/Bluray is "inside the lines" and can reasonably be expected to be seen. Overscan was an inexact problem with CRT televisions, and better TVs showed more picture than worse ones did. The "overscan area" was just a generally-accepted guideline for a "safe zone" that was unlikely to be affected.
Haloid1177
Banned
Just finished up MTMTE vol. 8 last night. More DJD is always a good thing. Last issue in this volume with
was really one of the better moments of the entire series. Loving every moment of this. Probably gonna buy vol. 10 this weekend and finish it off.
Megs and the field of flowers
GodParticle
Member
Now that MP megs is official...I need to unload my apollyon >_<
LocknessMobster
Member
SAY WHAT WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?
Yup. Glad to be wrong in this case, because goddamn. The top view of the chest is kind of a disaster, but the rest of it is just about flawless. That profile shot is perfection. Great head sculpt, great extras, dead on color choices, and the mace is poseable so it won't just hang there uselessly. I think Takara nailed this one.
Haloid1177
Banned
Carnifex is waiting for me at my house work has now slowed to a crawl.
I thought Takara was superior quality anyways. Who wants Hasbro's shoddy nickeling-and-diming quality? :shrug
It's all the same. The MPs released here in recent years are identical to the Takara versions. The only real advantage of Takara versions of the mainstream retail stuff is the better/more extensive paint apps.
davidwhangchoi
Member
the wait it's over prime!!
You know, that's one thing that always puzzled me about the Optimus vs Megatron fight, Prime never really does that much against him but the damage really does look like Megatron got his butt kicked.
parrotbeak
Member
I'm not up on MPs. How much is that Megatron likely to run and how short will the window be to order one at MSRP?