So a transgender student not even on hormones could participate in the girls sports for scholarships? Now that's really unfair.
I'm not. Both her gender and sex are female.
Then she wouldn't be transgender. The definition of transgender is your gender and sex not matching
That's not how this works and you know it.
At birth, sure.
I'm sorry but its exactly how it works.
Its not
Haines’ policy states “For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on the student’s consistent declaration of gender identity, their actions, attitude, dress and mannerisms.”
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/27734/
Not at all. I'm saying it's irrelevant. If you want to start segragating people for different reasons then be my guest but as it is right now they're segregated by sex only, so she's where she's supposed to be.
At birth, sure.
I'm sorry but its exactly how it works.
Men are naturally stronger than women when it comes to physical strength. Depending on when the hormonal therapy started, it might be unfair for the transgender student to compete with the other female students. If the hormonal therapy started from young age, then I don't think it's an issue. But I might be wrong. It's definitely a grey area and the right thing to do is not very clear.
I'm sorry but its exactly how it works.
its exactly how it works.
At birth, sure.
I'm sorry but its exactly how it works.
ITT we deny biological sex and its consequences to appear more progressive.
"That chatty, bitchy, flop-wristed athlete is certainly a girl!"
Come the fuck on, smh. The "dress" thing gets a pass if there are uniforms and they require boys to wear jackets and girls skirts, but even that's stupid.
If not any of those, how would you quantify gender?
If not any of those, how would you quantify gender?
I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly come to that conclusion.
This is so simple... I don't know why it is so hard to grasp.
Example A:
You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that is obsessed with women's soccer, there are leagues all across the country that feature intense tournaments, and high-intensity training camps. To compete in these tournaments means you are competing against the best, all the time. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and women's sports are just as highly respected as men's... resulting in women being taught from birth to compete just like men are.
Example B:
You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that thinks women shouldn't play sports and it doesn't support women's leagues or competitiveness at all. Women are taught from birth that they are supposed to be pretty and fragile, not competitive. You play in soccer tournaments and attend a few camps, but there are few girls participating, and a very low level of competition due to lack of support and zero competitive culture.
---
Example A is a mythical country where women are encouraged to compete from birth, and Example B is pretty much every country in the world currently albeit to less of an extreme.
Which country is going to have more skilled female athletes?
Is this really that hard to grasp?
I'm sorry but its exactly how it works.
Really? your comments are walking a fine line
SEX is purely based on chromosomes, if you have a Y you are a Male (Sex wise) unless you have XXY
chromosomes are a myth?
Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.I'm sorry but it's exactly how it DOESN'T work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system
If you have XY chromosomes, your sex is male. If you have XX chromosomes, your sex is male. sex is a biological trait.
"That chatty, bitchy, flop-wristed athlete is certainly a girl!"
Come the fuck on, smh. The "dress" thing gets a pass if there are uniforms and they require boys to wear jackets and girls skirts, but even that's stupid.
edit: I'm reminded of that woman who was attacked for using the woman's restroom because someone was confused by her short hair -that she shaved because she donates hair to cancer patients. We don't need outside council making "judgement calls" based on how people "look" and "act."
It's nowhere near that simple. What about intersex people? What about cisgender women who are born XY, have kids, live their lives and never find out?
Chromosomes are not as cut and dry as most people seem to believe.
I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly come to that conclusion.
This is so simple... I don't know why it is so hard to grasp.
Example A:
You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that is obsessed with women's soccer, there are leagues all across the country that feature intense tournaments, and high-intensity training camps. To compete in these tournaments means you are competing against the best, all the time. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and women's sports are just as highly respected as men's... resulting in women being taught from birth to compete just like men are.
Example B:
You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that thinks women shouldn't play sports and it doesn't support women's leagues or competitiveness at all. Women are taught from birth that they are supposed to be pretty and fragile, not competitive. You play in soccer tournaments and attend a few camps, but there are few girls participating, and a very low level of competition due to lack of support and zero competitive culture.
---
Example A is a mythical country where women are encouraged to compete from birth, and Example B is pretty much every country in the world currently albeit to less of an extreme.
Which country is going to have more skilled female athletes?
Is this really that hard to grasp?
How the person in question identifies. There was a time where women couldn't wear pants, or go outside without makeup on. They aren't acting "manly" when they do that.
If you are implying that a person's gender is an attribute decided entirely by what they claim to be, then it becomes little more than a meaningless title. Under those specifications saying "I identify as the president" is a valid statement that ought to give a person all the benefits and responsibilities of the president lol. Having a definition not based on society's definitions of "male" and "female" makes the concept of gender entirely meaningless in regards to situations like these, which revolve around presumptions of sex.
What part of them is not cut and dry? They're in your body, whether you know it or not.
At birth, sure.
I'm sorry but its exactly how it works.
If we're looking at the fastest male vs female sprinters, is the gap that large? Would it be large enough to have to make two extra categories for track and field?
If you are implying that a person's gender is an attribute decided entirely by what they claim to be, then it becomes little more than a meaningless title. Under those specifications saying "I identify as the president" is a valid statement that ought to give a person all the benefits and responsibilities of the president lol. Having a definition not based on (EDIT: Or at least in relation to) society's definitions of "male" and "female" makes the concept of gender entirely meaningless in regards to situations like these, which revolve around presumptions(Edit: and the biology) of sex.
Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.No, it is not. Sex is determined by chromosomes, gender by brain structure in the context of society.
Male human = has a Y sex chromosome (mostly for SRY)
Female human = does not have a sex chromosome
Man = identifies as a traditional male gender
Woman = identifies as a traditional female gender
A man can be female, and a woman can be male. This is simple scientific fact.
LOL Nattaphon lost to two girls that were born girls. What a loser.
Scholarship to college that costs almost 100k?This is a tricky one. In this case, they are just kids so I wouldn't cause a fuss myself if my kid was a loser in this race. It's not exactly professional level so why upset people?
Following these discussions is difficult when people seem to be using different definitions of words like sex, gender, male and female.
And what exactly would the lesson be here?
Not the point.
The point is that the same code can be interpreted differently. Following your example, XY tends to imply male and XX tends to imply female but it doesn't always work that way since there are other factors that influence it.
According to Leonard Sax intersex should be "restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex"...around 0.018%
The fastest female 200m time of all time isn't in the top 3000 fastest mens times. In fact, it's a full second behind:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_200ok.htm
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_200ok.htm
Not the point.
The point is that the same code can be interpreted differently. Following your example, XY tends to imply male and XX tends to imply female but it doesn't always work that way since there are other factors that influence it.
Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.
And, not gonna lie, seeing all this gender essentialism bullshit on GAF is really discouraging. I'd really rather not deal with that.
It's not like we have 100 million misplaced transgendered athletes. There's only a handful of times this has ever been and will ever be an "issue." Tell the parents to suck it up and treat this as a learning moment for their children.
The fastest female 200m time of all time isn't in the top 3000 fastest mens times. In fact, it's a full second behind:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_200ok.htm
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_200ok.htm
How is what gender a person identifies as meaningless? Can it change? Sure. Doesn't mean it's meaningless. Maybe the problem is your definition of gender isn't correct. It is precisely what someone identifies as. By identifying as a woman, that person is a woman by gender. That is exactly what makes this question of competitive sports so difficult.
Disenfranchising and denying places to a handful of biological girls for a handful of transgender girls is progress?
Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.
And, not gonna lie, seeing all this gender essentialism bullshit on GAF is really discouraging. I'd really rather not deal with that.
The question would also be when to enforce those rules. It would seem a bit extreme for something like highschool track running. (Then again, cisgender girls could feel discouraged to compete if they feel like they're disadvantaged...)I'm thinking that it may be that we'll have to set up rules like "at least two years on hormones" or something if we're going to keep these sex/gender divisions.
Otherwise, we'll have to come up with some other system of division based on relative mass and/or performance rather than sex or gender.
I expect these instances to increase if our society keeps to become more open and accepting.It's a rare exception and not worth working everyone into a froth.
You're conveniently overlooking the "declaration" part that comes before all of that.
If you are implying that a person's gender is an attribute decided entirely by what they claim to be, then it becomes little more than a meaningless title. Under those specifications saying "I identify as the president" is a valid statement that ought to give a person all the benefits and responsibilities of the president lol. Having a definition not based on (EDIT: Or at least in relation to) society's definitions of "male" and "female" makes the concept of gender entirely meaningless in regards to situations like these, which revolve around presumptions(Edit: and the biology) of sex.