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[cyberheater]

It's high school track. Even within the same gender people could be in vastly different stages of puberty.

You are deliberately ignoring my point.

 

[Jenov]

Okay. The fact that you don't understand that a teen transgendered male competing physically against females is inherently unfair makes it pointless discussing this with you.

He understands, he just doesn't care. The females that got unlucky enough to have a transgender compete with them just need to "take the L" in the name of progress, and give up that potential life changing scholarship spot.

 

[ishibear]

I'm not saying every black person is built like that. I'm saying that every black person on average is genetically more physically capable. There is nothing wrong with it and it isn't racism.

No real surprise that the majority of running track events are full of black people and I think most of the world records in the 100m race is taken by black men. They tend to have a higher concentration of fast twitch fibres as well as better bone development and centre of gravity for physical exertion.

You really should stop.

 

[Skii]

Stop.

You really should stop.

I genuinely don't understand why you are getting offended.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

He understands, he just doesn't care. The females that got unlucky enough to have a transgender compete with them just need to "take the L" in the name of progress, and give up that potential life changing scholarship spot.

Yes, because taking that one L has bumped so many biological women out of so many scholarships. We're inventing problems here.

 

[cyberheater]

He understands, he just doesn't care. The females that got unlucky enough to have a transgender compete with them just need to "take the L" in the name of progress, and give up that potential life changing scholarship spot.

Yep. That's exactly how I feel about it.

 

[Jack Random]

There was a story only a few days ago of an U15s boy's soccer team beating the female national Australian team 7-0. A bunch of boys beat a female's national team of professional players.


There was also stories years ago of the Serena sisters being absolutely destroyed someone who wasn't even in the men's top 100 seed.

The gap between men and women physically is vast.

203rd seed

 

[shoreu]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

Oh my fuck wth man

 

[DragonSworne]

I genuinely don't understand why you are getting offended.

Well, it seems like you are attributing things that are influenced by environment only to skin color.

 

[cyberheater]

Yes, because taking that one L has bumped so many biological women out of so many scholarships. We're inventing problems here.

Yes but you are saying we should accept blatant unfairness just so we can appear progressive which is clearly rubbish.

 

[crazygambit]

We're trying to tell you, as politely as possible, that this is false. As in, there is no factual basis for it.

Black people come in all shapes in sizes all over the world, not everyone is built like Lebron James, Usain Bolt, or a Kenyan marathoner.

Is this true though?

Here's a fact:

In the final of the 100m dash in the Olympics all 8 participants were black.

Sure maybe it's a coincidence, though given the percentage of black people (roughly 20%) vs the world population and having taken a few statistic courses in college tells me how unlikely that is. That all 8 of the best runners are black given that only 20% of the population in the world is black is almost definitely not a coincidence.

You could argue that other races don't care about the 100m dash, but it's by far the most prestigious competition in the Olympics. People care.

So what explanation can you come up with for the fact that nearly every final in the 100m is completely dominated by black athletes? I'd really love to know.

Wikipedia gives this explanation though:

It is believed that biological factors may be largely responsible for the notable success in sprinting events enjoyed by athletes of West African descent. This includes:[16]

Relatively less subcutaneous fat on arms and legs and proportionately more lean body and muscle mass, broader shoulders, larger quadriceps, and bigger, more developed musculature in general;

Denser, shallower chests;

Higher center of gravity, generally shorter sitting height, narrower hips, and lighter calves;

Longer arm span and "distal elongation of segments" – the hand is relatively longer than the forearm, which in turn is relatively longer than the upper arm; the foot is relatively longer than the tibia (leg), which is relatively longer than the thigh;

Faster patellar tendon reflex;

Greater body density, which is likely due to higher bone mineral density and heavier bone mass at all stages in life, including infancy (despite evidence of lower calcium intake and a higher prevalence of lactose intolerance, which prevents consumption of dairy products);

Modestly, but significantly, higher levels of plasma testosterone (3–19 per cent), which is anabolic, theoretically contributing to greater muscle mass, lower fat, and the ability to perform at a higher level of intensity with quicker recovery;

The ACTN3 protein, a "speed gene" most common among persons of West African descent that renders fast twitch muscle fibers fast. African American 200 m and 400 m world champion Michael Johnson has suggested that the presence of ACTN3 is at the root of the success of these athletes in sprinting events;[17][18]

And finally, a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers (Type II) and more anaerobic enzymes, which can translate into more explosive energy. The enzyme creatine kinase is abundantly expressed in these fibers. The enzyme rapidly regenerates the biological fuel molecule ATP needed for the sprint. The enzyme has been reported to be twice as high in subjects of sub-Saharan African descent.[19] Creatine kinase is the final common pathway of muscle activity. It is tightly bound to the muscle fibers and directly fuels fast muscle contraction. Therefore, the creatine kinase system is considered to be the major factor, downstream of other factors, that modulates the biological capacity to sprint

No clue how true it is, since it's Wikipedia, but saying that there's no factual basis for it might be a little misguided

 

[cyberheater]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

You can't really mean that?

 

[QuantumZebra]

Exhibit A. The US Women's National Team which is the more popular football variant in the US, over the men's side. Decades of excellence, competition, and World Cup trophies...and yet they still lose to U17 boy teams. They are undoubtedly more skilled than another country's women would be but will never win against a boy team, barring that 10% chance because lol sports.

Biological dimorphism is simply not something you can wish away by sociology.

I don't know why you're trying to shape what I said as being about beating men's teams.

Soccer is a highly physical sport where the biological differences are incredibly important to the outcome.

I was talking about elevating the level of competition within women's leagues for all sports via cultural and sociological change.

--

That being said, my other point was that in instances where physical attributes are not as defining of outcomes (archery, golf, etc...) - skill level can put men and women on a more even playing field.

By elevating skill levels across the board you increase the likelihood of women being able to compete with men in different sports to a degree.

It's just a fun hypothetical.

 

[Nozem]

Transgender people and men compete together.
Non-transgender women compete together.

That seems to me the most fair option. Still not ideal, but I can't really see a better (more fair) way. Maybe testosterone levels, but I have no idea about the validity of anything like that.

 

[LizardKing]

I think special consideration needs to be given to trans student athletes on a case by case basis. There is no universal policy that will make everybody happy.

Is it special treatment? Of course. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are countless unique circumstances which require people to be treated differently. The key is that they are treated with respect and support.

That's why spreading information and knowledge about trans issues is so important.

So when a legit trans girl is denied the ability to compete because she lives in Alabama and the powers that be are bigots, what then?

 

[Skii]

Oh my fuck wth man

It was sarcasm ffs.

Well, it seems like you are attributing things that are influenced by environment only to skin color.

You really don't understand genetics then. Black people in the Caribbean have a very high concentration of fast twitch fibres that confers an advantage in short track events like 100m, 200m etc. They also genetically have a higher metabolism making it easier to maintain weight (although that's just an added bonus).

Seriously I don't understand why people are being offended by what I've said. I'm saying positive things here and apparently I'm "racist" and I've offended the entire fucking thread.

 

[FyreWulff]

Transgender people and men compete together.
Non-transgender woman compete together.

That seems to me the most fair option. Still not ideal, but I can't really see a better (more fair) way. Maybe testosterone levels, but I have no idea about the validity of anything like that.

or

hold on to your butts

we just have people run time trials and compete in classes based off the average of their best 3 times

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Yes but you are saying we should accept blatant unfairness just so we can appear progressive which is clearly rubbish.

Unfairness is everywhere! From the environment these kids are raised in (nutrition, financial advantages, access to training facilities, etc) to their own health and physical abilities. Biological sex is just one more thing.

 

[Mr Cola]

Let's put it this way. It is extremely unlikely that any person in female to male transition could compete in male category sports.

Remember when discussing this that in over 30 years of sport science improvements that the testosterone fuelled East German women's athletics records are still on the books and not even close to being eclipsed

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/08/unbreakable.html

Sports are binary, gender is not so a line must be drawn somewhere that allows 50% of world to have a chance at competing on a level playing field.

This is a thoughtful piece on the issue by Sarah Barker
http://fittish.deadspin.com/should-there-be-testosterone-limits-for-women-in-athlet-1778330172

This is fascinating, one thing that comes to mind while reading it though is, if you artifically lower the testosterone of women with elevated levels you effectively put a barrier on the maximum that can be achieved by someone do you not? Ergo there is a limit to how fast a woman "can" run. Which is a strange thing to think about in athletics which is about pushing the barriers to reach peaks of human excellence.

 

[Odrion]

Is this true though?

Here's a fact:

In the final of the 100m dash in the Olympics all 8 participants were black.

you better have some better data to back it up than "look at all these black folk"

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Indirect sports like running are one of the ones that make the most sense for mixed genders in the first place - and seriously, it's school level track. Parents need to let kids be kids.

The differences are more pronounced at that age level:

https://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/records/30-records/277-mens-outdoor-high-school-records
https://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/records/30-records/281-womens-high-school-records

2 second difference in the 200m.

It was sarcasm ffs.



You really don't understand genetics then. Black people in the Caribbean have a very high concentration of fast twitch fibres that confers an advantage in short track events like 100m, 200m etc. They also genetically have a higher metabolism making it easier to maintain weight (although that's just an added bonus).

Seriously I don't understand why people are being offended by what I've said. I'm saying positive things here and apparently I'm "racist" and I've offended the entire fucking thread.

Then shouldn't you be able to handpick any black athlete at random in the continent of Africa and have them smoke the fastest white athlete?

You can't look at a distinct, geographically isolated population of people and project that across an entire race. Black Caribbean islanders are as different from Black Kenyans as Black Ghanians are from Western Europeans. Race is social. We find it more convenient to group people by outward physical characteristics because it's easy, but genetics don't work that way.

 

[norm9]

or

hold on to your butts

we just have people run time trials and compete in classes based off the average of their best 3 times

But in general, it would be men with the top times in all classes. Women (sex and gender-wise) wouldn't place.

 

[Nozem]

or

hold on to your butts

we just have people run time trials and compete in classes based off the average of their best 3 times

That would eliminate 99% of women, if only the fastest runners would qualify.

 

[Kinyou]

Transgender people and men compete together.
Non-transgender women compete together.

That seems to me the most fair option. Still not ideal, but I can't really see a better (more fair) way. Maybe testosterone levels, but I have no idea about the validity of anything like that.

Testosterone levels would make the most sense to me. Putting transgender athletes with the men would completely go against the acceptance they seek.

 

[CrocMother]

So when a legit trans girl is denied the ability to compete because she lives in Alabama and the powers that be are bigots, what then?

Hopefully someone in the community stands up for her. Spreads awareness.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

It was sarcasm ffs.



You really don't understand genetics then. Black people in the Caribbean have a very high concentration of fast twitch fibres that confers an advantage in short track events like 100m, 200m etc. They also genetically have a higher metabolism making it easier to maintain weight (although that's just an added bonus).

Seriously I don't understand why people are being offended by what I've said. I'm saying positive things here and apparently I'm "racist" and I've offended the entire fucking thread.

The difference between male vs female runners is so much more pronounced than any sort of advantage being black may give you, it's seriously not even worth bringing up

 

[norm9]

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

Men and women are different. That's just the way it is.

 

[FartOfWar]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Many Olympic events would be entirely without women competitors. You're cool with that?

 

[Kinyou]

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

I imagine it would rather lead to most sports being completely dominated by men which then leads to women receiving barely any support like scholarships, having no role models etc.
At that point I don't see how that would help evolution wise.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Men and women are different. That's just the way it is.

I'm sure if men and women competed on the same field over 100s of years, those differences would begin to fade.

 

[LizardKing]

I imagine it would rather lead to most sports being completely dominated by men which then leads to women receiving barely any support like scholarships etc.
At that point I don't see how that would help evolution wise.

He is poking fun at an opinion from earlier in the thread. I loled.

Edit: I think so at least.

 

[Ralemont]

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

You mean like was previously suggestered where there's just a basketball team, instead of a men's and women's team? What happens is that the roster spots get filled by men, and then women just can't play basketball. That seems far more damaging than having a women's team separate.

Edit:

"Atlantis resident expert troll."

dammit

 

[Henkka]

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

That's seriously not how evolution works.

 

[QuantumZebra]

It was sarcasm ffs.



You really don't understand genetics then. Black people in the Caribbean have a very high concentration of fast twitch fibres that confers an advantage in short track events like 100m, 200m etc. They also genetically have a higher metabolism making it easier to maintain weight (although that's just an added bonus).

Seriously I don't understand why people are being offended by what I've said. I'm saying positive things here and apparently I'm "racist" and I've offended the entire fucking thread.

You're not wrong in pointing out the physical advantages/disadvantages of certain groups of people across the world at all.

A Chinese (American) football pro team would get bodied by an American one.

Just like a women's pro soccer team would get bodied my a men's pro soccer team.

---

It is kind of disconcerting to see people having no issue pointing out the difference in attributes between men and women, and freaking out over it being pointed out in different ethnic groups.

---

The difference between male vs female runners is so much more pronounced than any sort of advantage being black may give you, it's seriously not even worth bringing up

Both are pronounced, and both are worth bringing up. He is completely correct that certain ethnic groups dominate certain athletic competitions. You can't deny it.

 

[crazygambit]

you better have some better data to back it up than "look at all these black folk"

It's almost as if you didn't read the rest of the post with the scientific explanation about why they have an advantage.

If you know even a little bit of statistics and can agree that the 100m dash is an event that warrants the attention of every sprinter and is not culturally more relevant to one race or another, then it becomes pretty hard to argue people of West African descent don't have an advantage.

Unless you're willing to offer an alternative explanation. I'm all ears.

It's interested to note that not all black people have that advantage though. The Kenyan runner that wins marathons is completely different from someone like Usain Bolt, even though you could call both black.

 

[Acerac]

I'm sure if men and women competed on the same field over 100s of years, those differences would begin to fade.

This is a joke, right?

It's a very confusing thread, it's hard to tell.

*Edit*

Thank goodness. ^^;

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

You mean like was previously suggestered where there's just a basketball team, instead of a men's and women's team? What happens is that the roster spots get filled by men, and then women just can't play basketball. That seems far more damaging than having a women's team separate.

Institute a quota system.

 

[Cerato]

So a girl is butthurt that she got beat for third place by a trans person? If she'd been in second it wouldn't have been an issue. Get good.

Also, I have friends in eSports, and they complain all the time about the toxicity of the community. But not like you think! The toxicity they refer to is that as soon as a pro gamer loses event X, they immediately start looking for the logistical factor that threw them off, and then they throw a s**t fit and try to get someone fired because they blew their ult at the wrong time.

Competitive people are a-holes when they lose.

 

[cyberheater]

Unfairness is everywhere! From the environment these kids are raised in (nutrition, financial advantages, access to training facilities, etc) to their own health and physical abilities. Biological sex is just one more thing.

So you are saying unfairness is okay and not as important as someone's right to identify as a different gender and compete in a gender aligned competition regardless of the competitive edge their biological make up gives them.

Do you understand how absurd that belief is?

 

[Complete]

or

hold on to your butts

we just have people run time trials and compete in classes based off the average of their best 3 times

I think this is pretty fair, honestly. The difference between the classes would have to be fairly sizable (like the difference between bronze -> gold -> diamond in Starcraft II), but I think it could work.

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

That's definitely not at all how evolution works, heh. There's no selective pressure here to make the faster and more able women breed more successfully than the slower women.

But in general, it would be men with the top times in all classes. Women (sex and gender-wise) wouldn't place.

That would eliminate 99% of women, if only the fastest runners would qualify.

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. You mean that men have stronger potential for improvement at all times? Is that a thing?

 

[partyphone]

i love when black runners are brought up in these sorts of threads. Africa has more racial diversity than Europe but stick an entire continent into the black bucket because we're racist as fuck.

 

[TheSlySoul]

or

hold on to your butts

we just have people run time trials and compete in classes based off the average of their best 3 times

I always thought a tier system makes way more sense than basing it off of gender alone.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

This is a joke, right?

It's a very confusing thread, it's hard to tell.

*Edit*

Thank goodness. ^^;

I'm not joking. Basketball, track, etc.. These are all luxuries, games, entertainment. Breakdown all the barriers and setup quotas to insure diversity.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

So a girl is butthurt that she got beat for third place by a trans person? If she'd been in second it wouldn't have been an issue. Get good.

Also, I have friends in eSports, and they complain all the time about the toxicity of the community. But not like you think! The toxicity they refer to is that as soon as a pro gamer loses event X, they immediately start looking for the logistical factor that threw them off, and then they throw a s**t fit and try to get someone fired because they blew their ult at the wrong time.

Competitive people are a-holes when they lose.

For most track meets there's a qualifier and then a final, and only the top 8 or so people make the final (with the potential to medal or score). Can't you understand how frustrating it must be to be the girl who got 9th and bumped from the final because you were running against a biological male? Now your meet is cut short and you have no chance at a medal or scoring for your team

 

[neeksleep]

There was a story only a few days ago of an U15s boy's soccer team beating the female national Australian team 7-0. A bunch of boys beat a female's national team of professional players.


There was also stories years ago of the Serena sisters being absolutely destroyed someone who wasn't even in the men's top 100 seed.

The gap between men and women physically is vast.

Good point. It does make me wonder though if there's also less quality coaching and training on the women's side in that case. I just find it hard to believe that the gap is actually a lot bigger than i originally would have believed.

Let's put it this way. It is extremely unlikely that any person in female to male transition could compete in male category sports.

Remember when discussing this that in over 30 years of sport science improvements that the testosterone fuelled East German women's athletics records are still on the books and not even close to being eclipsed

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/08/unbreakable.html

Sports are binary, gender is not so a line must be drawn somewhere that allows 50% of world to have a chance at competing on a level playing field.

This is a thoughtful piece on the issue by Sarah Barker
http://fittish.deadspin.com/should-there-be-testosterone-limits-for-women-in-athlet-1778330172

That's a good read, thanks for the insight!

 

[trembli0s]

That wiki except on the "speed" gene is fascinating if true. As is the Soviet bloc doping women's records articles. There is still so much we don't know.

 

[shoreu]

It was sarcasm ffs.



You really don't understand genetics then. Black people in the Caribbean have a very high concentration of fast twitch fibres that confers an advantage in short track events like 100m, 200m etc. They also genetically have a higher metabolism making it easier to maintain weight (although that's just an added bonus).

Seriously I don't understand why people are being offended by what I've said. I'm saying positive things here and apparently I'm "racist" and I've offended the entire fucking thread.

Lol my bad then bro

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I wonder if doing away with athletic sex classifications would eventually lead to women stepping up their game evolution-wise over a few hundred years? Maybe this segregation in a weird way is holding women back.

That's not how evolution works. My God, I need to step away from this thread.

 

[ElFly]

That's not the point. The point here is that it's blatantly unfair on the other kids and you are saying we should accept it because we aim to be a progressive tolerant society. That is straight up nonsense.

But I have a feeling you won't see it that way.

The blatant unfairness of a trans girl getting third place will destroy american sports!