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[KHlover]

I dont really have much experience, went to an all boys school

Here's an example.

The first page contains a grade table for the Cooper test (for those who were lucky enough to never have heard about it so far: run as far as you can in 12 minutes). As a girl 2675m net you 15 points, which would be an A+ in the US grading system. Take a look at the "Jungen" column and you'll see that the same distance would put you between 7 and 8 points, so...between a C- and a C.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Said like someone who doesn't watch many sports I take it. Women playing men in football or rugby would be disastrous. Actually, let me elaborate.

It might work in sports where there are already different divisions based on weight, but for sports where anyone qualified gets on it could end up badly. And there's also the psychological aspect of how most men probably wouldn't even want to hit women, combined with the fact that it's pretty taboo in general, even if for the sake of a professional sport.

And yet she came in third place so it seems like that 'inherent biological advantage' she has isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Yes because being biologically male means you're better than EVERY female by default, right? Her placement doesn't say ANYTHING. We honestly can't comment on this because it's wholly dependent on a bunch of things that are hard to even test such as when hormone therapy started, how far along puberty she already was, etc.

I feel like some people feel like ignoring biological differences makes them sound bigoted. Acknowledging they exist doesn't mean all men are stronger than all women, or any other ridiculous strawhat, extreme what-if, or edge case you propose. It simply means on average that's the case. Testosterone is a thing and it has very real effects on muscle development

 

[norm9]

It's exactly that simple.
Sports are segregated by sexes. She's a girl, ergo she should compete against girls.

Someone already made the analogy earlier in the thread, but Caitlyn Jenner at her peak being allowed to compete in the women's decatholon would be ridiculous.

 

[azyless]

ITT we deny biological sex and its consequences to appear more progressive.

Sports are segregated by sexes. She's a girl, ergo she should compete against girls.

Sex != gender

 

[Justified]

And yet she came in third place so it seems like that 'inherent biological advantage' she has isn't all that it's cracked up to be.


This is exactly like the bathroom issue. You're trying to exclude her from something for completely irrelevant reasons when she's exactly where she's supposed to be.

This is her first season, with more training she could possibly blow them out.

Also she dominates the 200 meter, so she may be slow to accelerate, but her speed is top tier to those she compete against;

*some editing as I misread*

http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=9862534#/L0

 

[Trojita]

It's exactly that simple.
Sports are segregated by sexes. She's a girl, ergo she should compete against girls.

There's no issue here other than some people being unable to take the L.

You are completely ignoring the system's in sports that try and take away unfair advantages, this includes even involuntary advantages.

Or do you think people taking steroids and equipping cheetah fast robotic legs is fair?

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Thats true, but sports have a baseline, that starts with gender assignment.

Skills and talent are the difference maker. Should the baseline be eliminated?

Yes. The baseline has shifted. It's going to upset a number of people, but the world will adjust.

 

[Kinyou]

It's exactly that simple.
Sports are segregated by sexes. She's a girl, ergo she should compete against girls.

There's no issue here other than some people being unable to take the L.

Changing the gender alone isn't going to make the inherent advantages your sex provides going to disappear. That's where things like hormone therapy come into play

 

[Beerman462]

I think I'm gonna cry, lol.

I did not and still am not trying to address genetic aspects. I'm talking about the culture of athletics and sociology affecting how women's sports are perceived, how women are trained, how women are raised to compete, and how it raises the level of competition.

As others have pointed out you are basically saying women aren't trying hard enough. I agree women's sports should be taken more seriously, but if we are talking about top level competion it's not about training or lack of competitiveness.

 

[infinitys_7th]

And yet she came in third place so it seems like that 'inherent biological advantage' she has isn't all that it's cracked up to be.


This is exactly like the bathroom issue. You're trying to exclude her from something for completely irrelevant reasons when she's exactly where she's supposed to be.

"Inherent biological advantage" is about averages.

If you could measure the magnitude of potential athletic ability of ten thousand men and ten thousand women, you would likely get two normal distributions. Biologically, we know that the mean value for men is higher than for woman, but also that there is overlap (and likely a good amount of it).

Women in their top 99% would be higher than a good number of men but still lag behind the men in their top 99%.

The girl in the article is (was?) likely a less exceptional male (by sex, which is what matters biologically). Still more exceptional than a lot of guys (and girls), though.

That advantage probably is somewhat meaningless at a HS level, but professionally there will always be a gap.

 

[God Dayumm]

ITT we deny biological sex and its consequences to appear more progressive.


Sex != gender

Good thing sports are separated by gender and not by sex, because as I far as I know they don't test whether an athlete has X o Y chromosomes. So the distinction is moot

 

[Complete]

ITT we deny biological sex and its consequences to appear more progressive.

It's a fact that hormone therapy decreases muscle density considerably. That coupled with testosterone levels that are often even lower than natural-born women makes the complaints really ring hollow.

It's true that bone density is higher, but that's not a material advantage on its own, and mostly affects one's propensity for serious injury.

 

[LizardKing]

And yet she came in third place so it seems like that 'inherent biological advantage' she has isn't all that it's cracked up to be.


This is exactly like the bathroom issue. You're trying to exclude her from something for completely irrelevant reasons when she's exactly where she's supposed to be.

Not every male is going to beat every female. This is one case and the result is not really relevant to the whole discussion. She came in third, maybe she would have been farther back without an advantage.

Are people seriously trying to argue there is no physical biological athletic advantage to being born a male over female? This is like basic biology.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

It's a fact that hormone therapy decreases muscle density considerably. That coupled with testosterone levels that are often even lower than natural-born women makes the complaints really ring hollow.

It's true that bone density is higher, but that's not a material advantage on its own, and mostly affects one's propensity for serious injury.

You're saying people on hormone therapy have lower levels of testosterone than natural-born women? Or natural born men? Are you talking to MtF or FtM? I'm confused

 

[azyless]

Good thing sports are separated by gender and not by sex, because as I far as I know they don't test whether an athlete has X o Y chromosomes. So the distinction is moot

Good thing I've already posted in this thread that the small organisation known as the IOC does testosterone-level testing to determine whether MtF trans people are allowed to compete with other women. That's not quite the separation by gender you were hoping for, is it ?

It's a fact that hormone therapy decreases muscle density considerably. That coupled with testosterone levels that are often even lower than natural-born women makes the complaints really ring hollow.

I was obvioulsy talking about posters who argue that trans women should be able to compete with women regardless of their HRT situation.

 

[dragonelite]

It's a fact that hormone therapy decreases muscle density considerably. That coupled with testosterone levels that are often even lower than natural-born women makes the complaints really ring hollow.

It's true that bone density is higher, but that's not a material advantage on its own, and mostly affects one's propensity for serious injury.

So there are no inherent skeleton advantages by being born a male, maybe a couple of
inches broader/smaller hips or shoulders to get some more leverages?

 

[Justified]

It's a fact that hormone therapy decreases muscle density considerably. That coupled with testosterone levels that are often even lower than natural-born women makes the complaints really ring hollow.

It's true that bone density is higher, but that's not a material advantage on its own, and mostly affects one's propensity for serious injury.

Again not every transitioning person does HRT. You have to factor in those who do not also. Unless have a a separate category for non-HRT transitioning participants is also a options

 

[norm9]

Are people seriously trying to argue there is no physical biological athletic advantage to being born a male over female? This is like basic biology.

There is no difference and we are all equal in all areas.

 

[Hollycat]

You're saying people on hormone therapy have lower levels of testosterone than natural-born women? Or natural born men? Are you talking to MtF or FtM? I'm confused

MtF transgender people often have lower levels of testosterone than cisgender (typo sorry) women.

It a not uncommon at all. It's also part of why a lot of transwomen become so weak after starting hrt

 

[infinitys_7th]

Good thing sports are separated by gender and not by sex, because as I far as I know they don't test whether an athlete has X o Y chromosomes. So the distinction is moot

There is an obvious sociological reason for this - up until people started pushing to help trans people be recognized as what they feel like they are, gender was considered synonymous with sex.

 

[M0nochromatic]

As far as this goes in regards to the individual, I respect how they identify themselves. Period.

It's lamentable that mankind doesn't have the knowledge to trully change our bodies and create a level playing field. Luck has always played a roll in life. How good someones metabolism is, how easily they gain muscle mass, or their degree of hand eye coordination, it can all be altered to a degree by training, but biology isn't in tune with the idea of equality and fair play.

I'd rather lean towards inclusivity at the cost of a fair playing field, given that the playing field has never been even for anyone. Maybe in the future we'll possess the tech and know how in order to trully equalize competition, but we aren't there now.

 

[QuantumZebra]

As others have pointed out you are basically saying women aren't trying hard enough. I agree women's sports should be taken more seriously, but if we are talking about top level competion it's not about training or lack of competitiveness.

I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly come to that conclusion.

This is so simple... I don't know why it is so hard to grasp.

Example A:

You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that is obsessed with women's soccer, there are leagues all across the country that feature intense tournaments, and high-intensity training camps. To compete in these tournaments means you are competing against the best, all the time. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and women's sports are just as highly respected as men's... resulting in women being taught from birth to compete just like men are.

Example B:

You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that thinks women shouldn't play sports and it doesn't support women's leagues or competitiveness at all. Women are taught from birth that they are supposed to be pretty and fragile, not competitive. You play in soccer tournaments and attend a few camps, but there are few girls participating, and a very low level of competition due to lack of support and zero competitive culture.

---

Example A is a mythical country where women are encouraged to compete from birth, and Example B is pretty much every country in the world currently albeit to less of an extreme.

Which country is going to have more skilled female athletes?

Is this really that hard to grasp?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

MtF transgender people often have lower levels of testosterone than distended women.

It a not uncommon at all. It's also part of why a lot of transwomen become so weak after starting hrt

Gotcha. But then we get into the messy discussion of who undergoes hormone therapy. Testosterone level testing would probably solve this, but I don't know how expensive it is or how feasible/practical/ethical it is in non-professional leagues (i.e. those will significant money on the line)

 

[Kinyou]

It's a fact that hormone therapy decreases muscle density considerably. That coupled with testosterone levels that are often even lower than natural-born women makes the complaints really ring hollow.

It's true that bone density is higher, but that's not a material advantage on its own, and mostly affects one's propensity for serious injury.

But you don't have to do hormone therapy to be considered transgender, do you? How would people feel if hormone therapy was a requirement for transgender women to compete in women's sports?

 

[Complete]

So there are no inherent skeleton advantages by being born a male, maybe a couple of
inches broader/smaller hips or shoulders to get some more leverages?

That depends entirely on when the therapy is undertaken and what activity we're talking about.

For something like basketball, obviously a MtF person who is transitioning late will have a huge advantage simply because of height. In most other activities, no, there will be no notable advantage.

Again not every transitioning person does HRT. You have to factor in those who do not also. Unless have a a separate category for non-HRT transitioning participants is also a options

TBH, I have a difficult time fathoming the very idea of someone who tries to change their gender without going through HRT. The idea is completely alien to me.

I am aware of genderqueer and genderfluid individuals (myself identifying as genderqueer), but to my knowledge all such individuals prefer to identify as such and NOT as explicitly male or female or man or woman.

 

[Skii]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

TBH, I have a difficult time fathoming the very idea of someone who tries to change their gender without going through HRT. The idea is completely alien to me.

HRT is expensive. I would venture to say the majority of transgenders aren't able to undergo it. It's not necessarily because they don't want to

 

[Justified]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

Already been said in this thread, and again Not even the same thing

 

[QuantumZebra]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

You're about to incite a riot.

 

[entremet]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

Oof. hit and miss.

 

[cpp_is_king]

If this is allowed, then eventually competitive female sports will be dominated by transgender people and nobody else will stand a chance, ultimately leading to the exclusion of a MUCH larger group of people. Use some common sense

 

[Team Alucard]

TBH, I have a difficult time fathoming the very idea of someone who tries to change their gender without going through HRT. The idea is completely alien to me.

I am aware of genderqueer and genderfluid individuals (myself identifying as genderqueer), but to my knowledge all such individuals prefer to identify as such and NOT as explicitly male or female or man or woman.

There are some people who have an adverse reaction to anti-androgens, (Cyproterone acetate for example can be extremely damaging to the liver in some people and is thus banned in the U.S.) and are thus unable to take them.

Likewise, there are a lot of trans people in poverty (over 50% make less than 10,000 a year) who do not have access to healthcare, and thus do not have access to HRT.

Its not always a matter of the person not wanting HRT, many simply do not have access to it. Especially trans minors who need parental approval to do anything, and young trans adults who likely do not have financial security.

 

[Zoe]

It's exactly that simple.
Sports are segregated by sexes. She's a girl, ergo she should compete against girls.

There's no issue here other than some people being unable to take the L.

Then why do the Olympics bother to make the distinction at the hormone level?

 

[Tangeroo]

It's exactly that simple.
Sports are segregated by sexes. She's a girl, ergo she should compete against girls.

There's no issue here other than some people being unable to take the L.

I know this has been mentioned before, but sex is not the same as gender.

Almost everyone (except for bigots) completely accepts that she is a girl by gender. Unfortunately, her genetic sex is male.

You're correct that sports are segregated by sexes. That's why people are upset that she's competing in the girls' category. This is honestly a tricky situation because there's no clear-cut fair solution.

 

[Complete]

HRT is expensive. I would venture to say the majority of transgenders aren't able to undergo it. It's not necessarily because they don't want to

In those cases, however, you're not even allowed to change your gender because you're required to go through some treatment (not sure how much treatment, but I imagine a doctor's note is very important here).

 

[Octavianus]

Not every male is going to beat every female. This is one case and the result is not really relevant to the whole discussion. She came in third, maybe she would have been farther back without an advantage.

Are people seriously trying to argue there is no physical biological athletic advantage to being born a male over female? This is like basic biology.

Not at all. I'm saying it's irrelevant. If you want to start segragating people for different reasons then be my guest but as it is right now they're segregated by sex only, so she's where she's supposed to be.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

It's not like we have 100 million misplaced transgendered athletes. There's only a handful of times this has ever been and will ever be an "issue." Tell the parents to suck it up and treat this as a learning moment for their children.

And what exactly would the lesson be here?

 

[Kinyou]

Not at all. I'm saying it's irrelevant. If you want to start segragating people for different reasons then be my guest but as it is right now they're segregated by sex only, so she's where she's supposed to be.

Again you're confusing sex and gender

 

[Mental Atrophy]

It's my understanding that the m-->f hormone therapy diminishes the physical advantages

If you're on it long enough, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually makes you worse than cisgendered female athletes. Testosterone plummets to zilch, while females still produce some on their own. But similar to exogenous testosterone having longterm benefits after male athletes cycle off of steroids, the testosterone from puberty probably takes a long ass time for its benefits to be so diminished that it's fair to cisgendered females, and my gut assumption is that most teenagers haven't sufficiently transitioned (and I'm not sure how I feel about people that young using hormone therapy yet). I don't know if any studies have been done on it, but I'd be interested in them and will probably do some searching later.

 

[God Dayumm]

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

And also we should disqualify tall people from basketball in order to not hurt the fee-fees of TERFs

 

[LizardKing]

Gotcha. But then we get into the messy discussion of who undergoes hormone therapy. Testosterone level testing would probably solve this, but I don't know how expensive it is or how feasible/practical/ethical it is in non-professional leagues (i.e. those will significant money on the line)

This is true. And so then we are going to ban trans women who aren't taking enough hormones? That kinda makes the inclusive argument lose a lot of weight, since you will be including some trans women but not others.

Also, not convinced there aren't biological advantages from earlier in development such as skeletal structure, hip width, height, arm length, leg length etc. that don't change. That's even if you were to accept a certain amount of hormone therapy were to atrophy "enough" muscle mass.

Then we get into how long they are tested, how often etc and if this is feasible at a high school level. Are you willing to ban a trans women if they stop taking their hormones before a competition?

I really don't know what the solution is, it's a tough question.

 

[Octavianus]

Again you're confusing sex and gender

I'm not. Both her gender and sex are female.

 

[darkinstinct]

It's not fair. But sport is never fair. It relies on some people excelling at certain things because of genetics and training. If your genes aren't up for it no amount of training will help you. But don't trans people have to take huge amounts of hormones? Those should be illegal, so there is the way out.

 

[Skii]

Already been said in this thread, and again Not even the same thing

Why not? Serena Williams is practically a different species to every other woman in tennis.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm not. Both her gender and sex are female.

Then she wouldn't be transgender. The definition of transgender is your gender and sex not matching

 

[Justified]

In those cases, however, you're not even allowed to change your gender because you're required to go through some treatment (not sure how much treatment, but I imagine a doctor's note is very important here).

Its not

Haines’ policy states “For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on the student’s consistent declaration of gender identity, their actions, attitude, dress and mannerisms.”

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/27734/

 

[Jenov]

I'm not. Both her gender and sex are female.

This is incorrect.

 

[norm9]

But don't trans people have to take huge amounts of hormones? Those should be illegal, so there is the way out.

This is a good point. If she is taking hormones, that is probably against the rules.

 

[Justified]

Why not? Serena Williams is practically a different species to every other woman in tennis.

Really? your comments are walking a fine line

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I'm not. Both her gender and sex are female.

That's not how this works and you know it.

Why not? Serena Williams is practically a different species to every other woman in tennis.

Being an exceptional physical specimen for your sex is not confined to racial lines at all. Canadian people aren't naturally good at hockey.