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[jchap]

RIP victims. People can be so horrible.

 

[SolidusDave]

Ugh... parents were visiting my brother's family in Berlin for my little nephew's birthday.
I'm living in a different timezone and now have to wait the whole day for them to wake up and reply.

But it's unlikely any of them went there that late so I'm not really worried.

 

[TyrantII]

You're embarrassing yourself. One of the most famous stories of Christ is him telling a crowd not to stone a woman.

Not gonna dwell on it much more, but I will say the only embarrassment is someone who picks and choose verse, throwing out everything they don't care for, to make a point.

Most people that swear by Christianity or the bible have never even bothered to pick up the book and read it, let alone study it. Rather, it's a symbol they imprint their own preconceived notions on, chosing what to focus on.

But if you're being academic, and fair, you have to take the good with the bad. And the Christian bible is just as archaic and morally wrong in some verse as any other religious text.

Trying to sweep the history of Christianity under the rug, or the text that Christians at this moment would rather overlook, is disegenious as fuck. Uganda for example Revere's Jesus Christ at the same time they point to verse to justify the imprisonment and killing of homosexuals.

 

[GameAddict411]

The alt right is definitely thriving because of these horrific events. It's what isis wants. They want the west to direct the hate on the Muslim population so that they are forced back into their countries to fight for ISIS. And even worse, do their own acts of terrorism. A truly vicious cycle that won't end for a long time.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

While the connection with the actual religious aspect becomes more muddled, it is a christian holiday that is usually not celebrated by people of non-christian faith.

Not really. Christmas is celebrated by millions of secular/atheist people, and even in places like Japan.

It's an attack against Western society.

Semantics about the origin of Christmas is besides the point.

I agree, which is why I was taking umbrage with the idea brought forth by that Trump statement (that some people actually seem to agree with) that this attack is "an attack on Christianity".

Get out of your bubble.

Er? What bubble?

So no, I'm not wrong when I say they aren't solely attacking Christians. It isn't Islam vs Christianity, because that does a huge disservice to the non christian people these savages have murdered.

Aye.

Also, people (okay, probably just one or two people) are giving you shit about "they don't care about your religion", but I understood what you mean. Your point was that ISIS doesn't care what religion you are so long as it's not the exact version of their own, which is true; they don't care if you are Christian, atheist, Jewish, non-fanatical Muslim, or anything else, they'll still hate you and kill you for it, equally.

But people are twisting the "they don't care" bit to ridiculous extremes, as if you said the opposite, that they are tolerant of your religion. SMH

 

[azyless]

While the connection with the actual religious aspect becomes more muddled, it is a christian holiday that is usually not celebrated by people of non-christian faith.

France has a majority of non religious people and pretty much everyone celebrates Christmas.

 

[StormKing]

The alt right is definitely thriving because of these horrific events. It's what isis wants. They want the west to direct the hate on the Muslim population so that they are forced back into their countries to fight for ISIS. And even worse, do their own acts of terrorism. A truly vicious cycle that won't end for a long time.

The extremists are winning. Merkel better address this in a convincing manner otherwise she might be toast.

 

[bonesmccoy]

It's funny when people talk about the Reformation like it was the thing that squashed religious extremism in the West.

 

[superdeluxe]

12 dead, 48 injured:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hristmas-market-berlin/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

 

[Faustek]

I have nothing to say Germany, I can just offer my condolences on the situation.

What's wrong with that?

As an atheist I hate to say this, but in Spain religion is teached in public schools and supervised by the government. At least this way you know what they're teaching kids in school is not a radical version.

I remember reading that one the biggest mistakes in France was going 100% secular and not subsidizing religion in public schools. Many radical imams from north Africa came to France to teach Islam without any control.

• Kinda like how we in Sweden badgered our Church into stop being such major holes.

• Forced to accept that they were not the only religion and that we would have freedom to chose what to practice or not to practice in the early 50s.

• At the same time making it so that we could leave the church if we chose so.

• Practically forced them to accept women priests in the late 50s

• A lot of speaking and kinda ignoring the church, it exists there on paper but no one cares.

• Kinda, but not really it's semantics, separated Church and State in the late 90s. Church doesn't get a penny from us if we don't chose to do so and they are forced to accept all the same laws as everyone else.

I understand where your heart is, but I think you're confusing Russia's harsh campaigns of religious suppression as some sort of organic and workable treatment of reform. Ultimately secularization and liberalization is going to have to come from reform Muslims who won't be demonized as Islamophobic for demanding a neoliberal standard for their religion, not governments. If I had to choose one way to accelerate attacks in Europe, it would be for state-sponsored religious reform - that would be incredibly threatening. Not only that, but it's a nationalists wet dream to be able to point at actual government policy and say that their nation is being taken over by the Muslim demographic who's religion and culture is being subsidized and promoted on everyone else's dime.

Yesterday MUCF(Myndigheten för Ungdoms och civilsamhällesfrågor ~ The agency for youth and public society questions) terminated the state founds they had been paying out to a few youth society's.

Ung Vänster(The youth left): Because they can't keep their papers in order, declaration.

SDU(Young Sweden democrats): Well They are racist as fuck so no money for them either, that they ever got a penny is beyond me, but the official explanation is that their think tank isn't compatible with the respect to the democratic values, equality and yeah racism.

Muslimska Brödraskapet(Muslim Brotherhood): Well same as SDU these fucks shouldn't have seen a penny at all. We're basically at the beginning of 1900s with Islam as we where with the Swedish church at the time. Until they can conform with what our laws says and start preaching what our laws requires.
Women Imans
Accepting of HBTQIA
Officiating HBTQIA weddings
And start preaching that everyone is equal to the other, religion or not, sexual orientation or gender they can get fucked.
And that is ok with me. With or without state funding they should conform to the law of man and the law of religion can just go away.

The problems with certain Mosques we've had in Sweden have come to light from "undercover" Muslim reporters. Unfortunately to great risk for the papers writing the stories and the individuals working there.
So yeah, different circumstances in different countries but it should be possible for the state to put the boot down.

I should also clarify that it's totally ok to steamroll organised religion in any sensible fashion you chose as long as it's equal treatment and follows the laws and sensibilities of civil society. No burning shit, no public lynchings or that shit. Just say, these are the laws. Follow them like all other religions are forced to and we're ok or spend some time in jail and face monetary consequences.

But Pakistan is not at war, so I dont know why you would call them "refugees", they're inmigrants.

Depends, I have met a few and talked with them that they are free to love whoever they want. They are gay and from what I understood 2 of them had been beaten an inch from their lives before they made their escape. Kinda not relative to what you're talking about but that exists.
Albania isn't at war, anymore, but we still have asylum seekers from there. The Police there have no resources to protect HBTQIA individuals, if they care...i sometimes wonder.

Just a FYI.

PS. Perhaps I come off as harsh but I'm so totally tired of this shit. Not enough that I have to deal with idiotic racists, racism on a systematic level and idiotic religious beliefs but now there is a whole other religion spewing their shit as well. So yes, I'm tired of this.

France has a majority of non religious people and pretty much everyone celebrates Christmas.

Same here in Sweden, it's mostly an excuse to stay at home from work and have fun with your family while we devour a few pigs, make the kids laugh and get drunk. It's mostly a tradition just because.

 

[Shiggy]

Condolences to all victims, I guess a lot of people will think twice now whether they should go to a Christmas market.

I wonder how CDU and SPD will react now, and if it will have any effects on policies. An attack like this will surely help the AfD as it's what they've been long predicting.

 

[Trojita]

France has a majority of non religious people and pretty much everyone celebrates Christmas.

I'm not sure that number is accurate from all other stats that show that the majority of France citizens still self identify as Catholic (around 45%) and 3% are protestant. That article even seems to cite a Eurobarometer report but another of their reports contradicts it (see page 233).

Also if my french is correct, the article states that the "believe in a spirit or superior force" is only a 1/3 of the population. But the results in the Eurobarmeter report state that 27% of respondents said they believe in God and 27% believe in "a spirit or life force" (what an awful declarative).

 

[facetheslayer92]

In case anyone is interested Trump issued a statement regarding the attack. I can't link it cuz I'm on mobile.

 

[azyless]

I'm not sure that number is accurate from all other stats that show that the majority of France citizens still self identify as Catholic (around 45%) and 3% are protestant. That article even seems to cite a Eurobarometer report but another of their reports contradicts it (see page 233).

Also if my french is correct, the article states that the "believe in a spirit or superior force" is only a 1/3 of the population. But the results in the Eurobarmeter report state that 27% of respondents said they believe in God and 27% believe in "a spirit or life force" (what an awful declarative).

Seems accurate from my experience being french tbh. People may identify as catholic because of tradition and culture, or because they were baptized, etc. without actually following the religion. You can also believe in some form of higher spirit without being religious.
Edit: I just looked at the eurobarometer reports from 2005 and 2010 and they seem pretty consistent with the article I just posted ? I'm not sure what your problem with it is.

 

[Hypron]

Seems accurate from my experience being french tbh. People may identify as catholic because of tradition and culture, or because they were baptized, etc. without actually following the religion. You can also believe in some form of higher spirit without being religious.

Yup. From my own experience, when I went to school there I only knew 1 kid my age who went to church. I still identified as a catholic back then because I was still fairly young and that's what I how I was raised (went to catechism and did my communion) but didn't go to church and didn't follow the religion. But yeah, other kids would still give me shit when they learnt I identified as catholic. Actual believers were a very small minority.

Of course if you looked at older people you'd find more believers, but overall France is a pretty secular country. Moving to NZ was quite a shock for me on that aspect. So many people go to church here (and yet it's still more secular than the US).

 

[Androidsleeps]

The extremists are winning. Merkel better address this in a convincing manner otherwise she might be toast.

This.
PLEASE just address and tackle this issue properly. People on the left need to acknowledge that islamic extremism is not a myth, and we can in fact do that w/o turning into bigots. Doing otherwise will only help the extremists of both ends.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

This.
PLEASE just address and tackle this issue properly. People on the left need to acknowledge that islamic extremism is not a myth, and we can in fact do that w/o turning into bigots. Doing otherwise will only help the extremists of both ends.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Pennywise]

The extremists are winning. Merkel better address this in a convincing manner otherwise she might be toast.

This.
PLEASE just address and tackle this issue properly. People on the left need to acknowledge that islamic extremism is not a myth, and we can in fact do that w/o turning into bigots. Doing otherwise will only help the extremists of both ends.

You both should stop speaking about things you got no clue about.

First of all, extremists aren't winning.
How on earth will Merkel be toast ? This isn't the US system with a two party system, and it's not gonna happen that the far right will gain a majority. Neither will ANY serious party form a coalition with them.

France and Belgium got hit alot harder, despite that, live goes on there and people continue with their usual routine.

And islamic extremism was never denied, stop being so delusional. Just a small example :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement#Germany

The goverment is working on it, but it's not some puzzle in a mickey mouse magazine you can solve in a few minutes.
It's a complex issue with alot of factors around the world playing a big role.

 

[Magni]

Haven't seen it posted yet, but this reminds me of the Christmas attacks in France two years ago (which were then followed by the Charlie Hebdo attacks to start off France's horrible 2015).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Dijon_attack (2014/12/21 - 11 injured)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Nantes_attack (2014/12/22 - 1 dead, 9 injured)

There was another attack planned at a French Christmas market in Strasbourg as part of the millennium attacks back in December 1999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasbourg_Cathedral_bombing_plot (planned for 1999/12/31 - foiled)

Islamists like attacking Christmas markets. One key difference is that the 2014 attacks were committed by lone wolves, whereas the 1999 plot was coordinated by al-Qaeda.

 

[Betty]

First of all, extremists aren't winning.

Oh they really are.

From bringing the US into a war and recession years ago, to making British people want to cut ties to the EU and the simple constant dread and resentment felt in more and more European and western countries they are absolutely 'winning'

And this attacker was a migrant? I mean christ this is what all those alt-right people already thought would happen years and years down the line and it's happening now, so expect the growing rise of right leaning political clout to just keep growing and growing as the so called 'bigots' keep being proven right again and again.

If you don't think the extremists are winning when we have Donald Trump as president I don't know what to say.

 

[Androidsleeps]

I do understand that this is a complex issue and not something that can be solved by using a catch phrase (like Trump and his ilk). And I'm not saying Merkel is toast, it's just that throughout this year after every act of terror, the response from people on the left is very bad...well, at least in the US, I must admit I'm not as exposed to the political discourse in Europe but I hope the level-headed politicians there no what to do.

Don't blame me for panicking in a year that saw Brexit and Trump though.

 

[Fritz]

I do understand that this is a complex issue and not something that can be solved by using a catch phrase (like Trump and his ilk). And I'm not saying Merkel is toast, it's just that throughout this year after every act of terror, the response from people on the left is very bad...well, at least in the US, I must admit I'm not as exposed to the political discourse in Europe but I hope the level-headed politicians there no what to do.

Don't blame me for panicking in a year that saw Brexit and Trump though.

Merkel's center right though, not left.

The one thing I am sure of somehow is that she will address this appropriately. And far left and right will still call for her blood.

 

[Pennywise]

I do understand that this is a complex issue and not something that can be solved by using a catch phrase (like Trump and his ilk). And I'm not saying Merkel is toast, it's just that throughout this year after every act of terror, the response from people on the left is very bad...well, at least in the US, I must admit I'm not as exposed to the political discourse in Europe but I hope the level-headed politicians there no what to do.

Don't blame me for panicking in a year that saw Brexit and Trump though.

Merkel isn't on the left. She is part of a conservative party. There is far more than just left and right, and mostly every serious party gave the right answer.
People need to calm down first and foremost. Obviously this isn't something for those who are directly affected, but there is no answer that solves everything.
You can't just pull a switch and eliminate every possible threat.
Not on this issue and not in general.

Oh they really are.

From bringing the US into a war and recession years ago, to making British people want to cut ties to the EU and the simple constant dread and resentment felt in more and more European and western countries they are absolutely 'winning'

And this attacker was a migrant? I mean christ this is what all those alt-right people already thought would happen years and years down the line and it's happening now, so expect the growing rise of right leaning political clout to just keep growing and growing as the so called 'bigots' keep being proven right again and again.

If you don't think the extremists are winning when we have Donald Trump as president I don't know what to say.

The recession was certainly not something that felt into the territory of terrorism.

British people wanted to cut ties to the EU, thanks to a huge campaign of lies and shit.
A campaign that didn't used terrorism as point, rather the economic points of EU immigration, costs of the membership, laws and other things.

Nothing is known about the attacker, and it's not even confirmed to be an attack yet.
So I'm not gonna participate in speculation.

No I don't think extremists are winning, even though my focus was aimed towards islamistic extremists in form of terrorists.

 

[Shiggy]

Merkel's center right though, not left.

The one thing I am sure of somehow is that she will address this appropriately. And far left and right will still call for her blood.

Merkel is pretty much center to center left. Under her leadership, there's pretty much no difference to the SPD anymore. Her party might be center right, but that's not the direction she has been steering to.

 

[KonradLaw]

Looks like he came from Pakistan.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/19/berlin-truck-driver-was-refugee-pakistan-report/

From Pakistan, did minor crimes. The question is why wasn't he deported already?

 

[Benq]

George Carlin was right - We're well and truly circling the drain now.

 

[Kathian]

From Pakistan, did minor crimes. The question is why wasn't he deported already?

Which despite a lot of hand wringing is an extremely valid question. Far right (stop calling it alt ffs) is doing well because center politicians are seemingly paralyzed and incapable of dealing with this issue.

 

[MGrant]

From Pakistan, did minor crimes. The question is why wasn't he deported already?

Yeah, there have been a few cases of "this man was known to authorities" showing up in recent attacks. Really hard to know what to do with that, because on one hand I know you can't just put folks in prison or deport them for misdemeanors, but on the other hand, these are people you have given an enormous amount of trust.

If I, a foreigner in my current country, were to commit a crime, I'd be in jail, followed by being deported back to America.

 

[Shiggy]

Yeah, there have been a few cases of "this man was known to authorities" showing up in recent attacks. Really hard to know what to do with that, because on one hand I know you can't just put folks in prison or deport them for misdemeanors, but on the other hand, these are people you have given an enormous amount of trust.

If I, a foreigner in my current country, were to commit a crime, I'd be in jail, followed by being deported back to America.

Quite often, these countries (understandably) don't want to take them back.

 

[Ethelwulf]

This.
PLEASE just address and tackle this issue properly. People on the left need to acknowledge that islamic extremism is not a myth, and we can in fact do that w/o turning into bigots. Doing otherwise will only help the extremists of both ends.

People on the left? Nothing to do with that no? I'm atheist and liberal and I very much acknowledge any kind of religious extremist. This is horrendous and unfair.

 

[Kathian]

Per BBC the suspect was caught after someone followed him. Seems the guy tried to hide in a park (I assume Berlin's large one; this wasn't far from the zoo either) but the witness followed him and alerted the police.

Very well handled and well done to him/her.

 

[Bl@de]

Merkel's center right though, not left.

The one thing I am sure of somehow is that she will address this appropriately. And far left and right will still call for her blood.

The CDU is definetly not center right anymore. They are mostly center left now like the SPD (but more to the center). CSU qualifies as center right but is exclusive to Bavaria. Germany has no center right option at the moment.

From Pakistan, did minor crimes. The question is why wasn't he deported already?

Because Germany is too afraid and/or unorganized to deport people even with criminal backgrounds.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

From Pakistan, did minor crimes. The question is why wasn't he deported already?

You answered your own question. Not even Australia kicks people out for minor shit. And neither should they be. Unless you want to come down more harshly on people of certain nationalities just in case?

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Per BBC the suspect was caught after someone followed him. Seems the guy tried to hide in a park (I assume Berlin's large one; this wasn't far from the zoo either) but the witness followed him and alerted the police.

Very well handled and well done to him/her.

I hope they beat him up too, piece of shit needs his face smacked in

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

You answered your own question. Not even Australia kicks people out for minor shit. And neither should they be. Unless you want to come down more harshly on people of certain nationalities just in case?

No,they should be. There should be zero tolerance on foreign criminals.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

No,they should be. There should be zero tolerance on foreign criminals.

Hard to justify that if what they did just gets them a fine or something. Everything needs to be done in proportion, otherwise people get deported for possessing small quantities of weed or something and hurt nobody else. I don't know what that fucktard who killed people did before, if what he did was violent then asking why he wasn't deported is valid. You can parachute him into a warzone for all I care.

 

[derFeef]

No,they should be. There should be zero tolerance on foreign criminals.

Uh... foreign? Or you mean something different, like illegals?

 

[FieryBalrog]

Lot of virtue signalling in this thread

Turns it out was a Radical Muslim after all though.

Sometimes reality sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Uh... foreign? Or you mean something different, like illegals?

If there was zero tolerance like he wants everyone who's ever been busted for weed or anything non violent in their past will be banned from all countries forever I guess. Which bans a lot of otherwise now productive people in any case. At any rate, we should crack down hardcore on Salafism. I understand Germany has closed down some extremist mosques already, and I expect they will ban the burka now too.

 

[stan423321]

You answered your own question. Not even Australia kicks people out for minor shit. And neither should they be. Unless you want to come down more harshly on people of certain nationalities just in case?

Being more harsh on non-citizens (in EU case, mostly on non-EU-citizens) is direct consequence of a state caring first and foremost about its own citizens, so it makes sense in general. I am not an expert regarding law terminology here though, so it's hard to discuss this particular case without first spending 10 pages to define minor crime.

 

[KonradLaw]

You answered your own question. Not even Australia kicks people out for minor shit. And neither should they be. Unless you want to come down more harshly on people of certain nationalities just in case?

Pakistan isn't a warzone though. He should have been deported even without any crimes, since he was no real refugee. The fact that despite that he still commited some crimes should have been enough to not try give him a pass.

 

[jamieson87]

Per BBC the suspect was caught after someone followed him. Seems the guy tried to hide in a park (I assume Berlin's large one; this wasn't far from the zoo either) but the witness followed him and alerted the police.

Very well handled and well done to him/her.

What a bad ass for following him and making sure they are caught. It's people like this we should all be talking about, not the perpetrator.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Pakistan isn't a warzone though. He should have been deported even without any crimes, since he was no real refugee. The fact that despite that he still commited some crimes should have been enough to not try give him a pass.

It's arguable that some areas of Pakistan definitely aren't safe with all the Taliban activity in some places. And it's probably justified to be harsher on a non-taxpayer rather than a taxpayer or someone who otherwise contributes things to society, so I think he shouldn't have been approved (and we should reduce the refugee influx to a manageable annual level to perform stringent vetting). I have a view that things should be nuanced, although I do feel it's the responsibility of a non-citizen to respect the rules and laws of their host (even if the law in question is bad). I know that as someone who wants to migrate to an EU country (am a UK citizen) I fully intend to integrate, contribute, and not harm the host society should I ever make it in to live and work.

 

[Karu]

What a bad ass for following him and making sure they are caught. It's people like this we should all be talking about, not the perpetrator.

Sure, but what if the one who is followed is not guilty. Suddenly you have people following "suspicious" people around and all what that entails. Might have turned out alright here because of circumstances.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

R.I.P. to the victims. Senseless shit

Lot of virtue signalling in this thread

Turns it out was a Radical Muslim after all though.

Sometimes reality sucks, doesn't it?

Try not to sound too happy

 

[FieryBalrog]

R.I.P. to the victims. Senseless shit



Try not to sound too happy

I'm not happy. Try not to imply nasty things

 

[ManUnkindH]

RIP for all the victims and strength for their loved ones.

Spoiler

FUCK this planet!

 

[Alx]

Lot of virtue signalling in this thread

Turns it out was a Radical Muslim after all though.

Sometimes reality sucks, doesn't it?

Key part in prejudice is "pre-". Whether you're right or not in the end, it's still prejudice.

 

[Social]

LMAO at people thinking that Merkel isn't DONE. She's not going to win any more elections, that's crystal clear.

 

[Kurtofan]

Key part in prejudice is "pre-". Whether you're right or not in the end, it's still prejudice.

Come on, in this environment? We're way past prejudice point.

If you hear hoof beats, you don't expect it to be a zebra.

A few years ago I'd completely agree with you.