SporeCrawler
Member
exactly
Van der bellen is not a member of the green party. He is independent. He was in the past.
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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy
- Thread starter Ensirius
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Van der bellen is not a member of the green party. He is independent. He was in the past.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Ah touché
I agree, but I think the refugee crisis led to an inevitable all or nothing approach - it tested our "European values", with countries like Germany having to overcompensate for all the other states who refuse to let anyone in. I also question the feasibility of background checks for the majority of the refugees - it's easy for governments 6000 miles away, like the US or Canada, to pluck a few hundred ideal nuclear families, but European states have to deal with the hundreds of thousands of (mostly) undocumented, unskilled young men at their doorstep. I don't know what the answer is.
Where are you based? I keep hearing similar stories but my experience is the complete opposite. It took us over a year to find a firm to renovate our business (high six figure project) because they were all so busy. I've had drinks with the owners of the two firms we used and they both complained about a tradesmen shortage (North London based) and having to hire more and more Lithuanians. In February, I needed a sparky for a new shower and it took me over 15 phone calls to find someone who could do it that month. In November we wanted our fireplace knocked through - the handful of places I could find who wanted the job all gave me crazy start dates like March '17. Ended up going with a Polish recommendation who had men available the following week. This is all anecdotal, but there seems to be more than enough work to go around.
Any proof for that or is it just your personal projecting sold as a fact? Because the numbers don't indicate such a possible result and there is a general censius to help people that are in danger.
TTOOLL
Member
ClosingADoor
Member
Is the land border between Turkey and Greece really a problem here? From what I understand it is mostly people coming in by boats, and mostly in Italy now (and also not Syrians there, but (North) Africans).
I would like that the people not actually fleeing from war would be sent back straight away. But how do you figure that out with no papers. And the smugglers themselves sink ships, so the EU ships need to get the people from the middle of the sea and bring people to land in Europe. You can't drop them back of in Libya or Turkey.
I guess we should either use some (Greek) islands as detention and refugee camps like another poster suggested. Or set up deals with bordering countries like Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, etc, to process people from there. That would hopefully discourage people from coming who are not real refugees, and stops smugglers at sea.
Tough situation all around.
Letting in people unchecked is not always the right thing. The right thing would have been to get large amounts of women, children, elderly and wounded from UN camps who were not capable of making a hard journey themselves. The most vulnerable get helped, and the camps there would have place for more refugees again.
Why exactly is opening the borders the right thing? Is not as clear cut. If i were European id think that only one of these attacks is too many.
And I say it as someone who most likely is going to flee its own collapsing country within the next 1-2 years. I'm not some old white racist.
And I say it as someone who most likely is going to flee its own collapsing country within the next 1-2 years. I'm not some old white racist.
Yeshh, thats a nasty business. stay safe Germans. Sad to say this, but Merkel's position seems to unattainable now.
Umm... thats exactly what he said if you read the rest of his comment.
Umm... thats exactly what he said if you read the rest of his comment.
This is the reason why all pro-immigration parties/politicians are losing traction in Europe.
Salty Rice
Member
Even most people who are for taking refugees dont agree with with Merkels Open Door policy.
This is the consensus since the beginning.
Hawaiian Punch
Neo Member
It'll be sad if that happens. Merkel deserves to be punished at the polls for her fucked up handling of the migrant influx.
GlamFM
Banned
The only thing she fucked up was the communication. Her actions make me proud to be German.
You want the AfD to win I assume?
I'll take this answer as a "no, I do not have any evidence for my claim"
RedSparrows
Member
Of course one attack is one too many, but attacks a) happen irrespective of the migration crisis, and b) where they happen via (not because of) the migration crisis, that does not mean the entire migration crisis is to be considered in a political, moral or cultural sense only through that threat.
Salty Rice
Member
Polls and interviews for over a year that got worse if you want a answer. Even for the people for it there is always a "but..."
GlamFM
Banned
One dead kid in Aleppo is also one too many.
Helping the ones in need is our responsibility.
Even if it´s hard.
RedSparrows
Member
Heh, that's politics. Something panacea-bearers conveniently ignore, be they saying 'come, huddled masses' or 'put up more walls'.
Its about the values we describe to ourself and our culture, because we see ourself as the moral pinnacle in the history of human societies.
michaelius
Banned
No she didn't. In her stupidity she opened flood gates of uncontrolled emigration. If she wanted to help she should have annouced that refugees will be accepted from the camps and everyone arriving by diffrent means will be sent back.
If she took people from camps we would have whole families and weakest people who needed help the most instead we got only those who were strong/ruthless/cunning enough to survive travel through the sea.
And as a European I'm glad you guys got Merkel running the show, with the rest of us fucking about in France, UK, the Netherlands.
lemmykoopa
Junior Member
Are there any statistics available related to the 1 million people that came into Germany? I'm interested in knowing % gender and age.
ClosingADoor
Member
Just because someone does not like Merkel's immigration and refugee policies, does not mean they automatically want the far right to win. Most people would want the established parties to come with workable solutions and policies, so the far right is not the only option to vote for if you are critical of these issues.
The way you help can be very different then just letting in hundreds of thousands to millions of people unchecked. How did it help to basically promote paying smugglers to get to Europe? How is that better then working with the UN to fund their camps and get people from there like Canada, the US and UK are doing?
This was last year.
"In Europe, over 800,000 migrants have traveled to Europe by sea in 2015, according to the United Nations refugee agency, and a little over half have come from Syria. About 62% of all migrants that have traveled to Europe this year, however, are men. A little under a quarter, 22%, are children and only 16% are women."
- http://time.com/4122186/syrian-refugees-donald-trump-young-men/
Only 20% are from Syria and it's not our responsibility to bring millions to Europe.
GlamFM
Banned
Check his post history.
It´s not like you get to pick and choose your favorite refugees to keep.
They were already at our borders. Sending them back would have meant certain death.
But it is. At least in my opinion. You can´t let millions die out of convenience.
Opining the borders was right. the security measures taken were not good though - that´s for sure.
lemmykoopa
Junior Member
But where are the kids, the females? I see a lot of refugees on a daily basis because I work in mobility and I swear 90% i see are young males.
That's why I'm interested in seeing statistics on age and gender on anyone who came in.
RedSparrows
Member
How to paint a prejudicial picture.
A lot oft people fleeing other countries don't carry documentation and, especially young refugees, often don't even know their birthday
I know 3 kids from Syria who just have no idea what their birthday is because they were never told. There's no documentation available (anymore) and you can't ASK the government of the country they were fleeing from what their birthday is for obvious reasons. So a doctor checks him and they make their best guess at their year oft birthday. They day is obviously irrelevant so they go with 1/1.
The point of asylum isn't to strengten your workforce or improve your economy. It's a side effect. You can't, by international laws, deny a refugee asylum based in their (lack of) knowledge. You can't send someone back to an unsafe country. It's just literally not allowed, for good reason.
ClosingADoor
Member
Why is the situation always presented as this black and white thing: you let people in or they die. Lots of people coming in weren't even from Syria or active war zones. And processing them in a different place does not mean they die.
Nobody is saying sent people back to active war zones.
GlamFM
Banned
The women and kids are there. I see them everyday in the refugee camp next to where I live. They will not talk to cameras or go out of the camps though.
CheDominik
Member
I wasn't aware that Germany or the Schengen Area for that matter borders with Syria. Or all these horrible wars in Tunisia and Morocco.
We would have needed.a concerted European effort not take them all in single handedly. And taking biometrical data would have been nice as well. Or you know knowing their place of residency in Germany. Opening the borders was not the right thing to do at all.
Btw. It always makes me laugh when after an icident they make adjustmnt to laws concerning asylum when the laws we have are perfectly fine but aren't enforced. So we end up with thousands of people who were rejected asylum status but can't be deported.
GlamFM
Banned
I agree that the security checks were bad - obviously.
But in the immediate situation you had to open the borders.
People were freezing to death.
More Fun To Compute
Member
A fair number of them are probably living in terror of the men they have to live and travel with.
Oh please, don't give me this bs, nobody believes it. He had major roles in the green party for 20-30 years, the green party officially paid for a lot of his campaign and everybody knows he is the de-facto green candidate, eventhough of course he had to distance himself from a lot to not scare away centrist voters. Not that this is really relevant to the thread though so I'd prefer if we could leave it at that.
Audioboxer
Member
The majority are young males. Who do you think carried out the sexual assaults and rapes in Germany Christmas gone by? It certainly wasn't children and women. The tough reality is to accept immigrants, even refugees need vetted, as opportunists take advantage. Secondly you have to accept in Islamic society due to the power balance given to men, it is often men who are the problem. It is them who beat and rape women, not children and other women. Who carried out the Paris attacks, Charlie Hebdo attacks, London bombings, Orlando shooting, Rotherham rape gangs and so on? I can't remember the last time it was a female, or a younger child. Deal with the reality or face consequences. Anyone trying to say it's sexist or unfair to pay more attention to men, especially younger men, when looking at immigrants and refugees fails to understand the laws of averages given the stats and data we do have.
Children and women are the most vulnerable refugees precisely because their oppressors are males 95% of the time. Families should take focus well before single individual males as well. It's not terrible, unsympathetic, unempathetic or worse. It's looking at current stats which show a disproportionate amount of male refugees are making it in, and in cases when abuses happen it's 99% of the time a male.
ClosingADoor
Member
There is a middle ground here. You can help them temporarily for that and then sent them to the facilities to have them processed. Instead, what we got was an open invitation that everyone could come in, leading all the countries on the way to open their borders for everyone because they wanted to get rid of the situation also.
Of course you then can't have security checks on a million people.
We have had enough stories about atheists, gay people and women living in fear in asylum centers in Europe by now. From bullying to actual abuse and assault.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Oh come on. How many times do we have to go through this?
Its not an option to send people back to war regions.
There were options. Killing(or letting them die) people who arrive at the European border or letting them in.
The infrastructure for that just wasn't there, because nobody wanted to prepare, even though everyone knew what was coming.
4 days ago
ClosingADoor
Member
Yet for some reason Merkel made the right call to let everyone in, while there was no infrastructure available. So why do we praise her for this, instead of criticizing her and other politicians for obviously being unprepared and letting the situation get out of hand in the first place.
Audioboxer
Member
What are you referring to?
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
So another radicalised Islamic terrorist attack?
Which isn't necessarily bad, if you look how bad mass immigration gets handled by political parties which initiated it in the first place.
Do you even know which people care about immigrants? No political party, that's what i can tell you. But mostly social institutions and philanthropist people who offer their own time to help, often without compensation.
I'm at a loss right now. Those people could very well be still alive. Some people will still defend this uncontrolled mass immigration. Sad, 'cause it will need an act that will blow a hole in their own beloved relationships to see that there's no point in it.
I'm very angry because i love those markets and visit them fairly often with people of all origins. Hard hit for my empathy. I can't and don't want to imagine the pain that you feel when you lose someone while all you should do and feel is being positive, happy and laughing.
My sincere condolences to the families.
Hope there comes change soon. We need more control and safety.
wesleyshark
Banned
12yr old tried to set off a bomb in Germany.
RedSparrows
Member
Because that was the situation? Criticism of lack of foresight does not preclude praise (or the legitimacy of other criticism) for actions taken in that context.
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