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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy

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Boke1879

Member
That is absolutely what I mean. Which is why I say they do care about your religion or lack there of, or how you live your life. There are certain groups they hate more than others as well.



The way their leaders have perverted it is what is driving them. They do this in the name of an interpretation of their religion. I'm not saying Islam in general. They're not just going around killing people for no reason in their minds.



That's my point.


Edit-

And now you've co.pletely changed your argument which is that they don't care about your religion. I never once said they target Christians in particular. They target anybody who doesn't agree with their religion.

In fact you lumped typical muslims in with Isis when you said he'll they're targeting muslims. Yes they're targeting muslims, who are people that don't agree with their twisted viewpoint of the religion.

But it seemed you've focused on one thing. I had issue with a part of Trumps statement.

That made it seem like imo and Islam vs Christianity. Like that's all they are targeting. But they'll kill anyone, any religion, any race, any background. That's what I mean by "they don't care." I probably shouldn't have used the word religion, but these people will kill indiscriminately if you don't agree with them.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Christianity tells us to stone women. Fuck, it ain't even that long ago the bloodletting was still going on in the UK.

Their religion doesn't tell them shit. Their leaders and their perverted interpretation do.

There's a big difference. It ain't semantics.

He who is without sin throw the first stone?
 

Betty

Banned
Trump and those like him is NOT what we need. They are the anti thesis of what we need. What we need are strong borders with workable and easily tracable and trackable visa programs. What we need is massive investment in border security(not walls), border patrol and border personnel, boosts to assimilation programs, vetting programs, background checks and also keeping a damn eye on foreign males for maybe years on end when they enter the country. It also wouldn't hurt for western governments to start investing in Islamic schools of thought that don't adhere to reprehensible warped views of texts and doctrine and mesh well with western beliefs, in thier own countries.

Some of that sounds like what Trump has promised, and you're still more likely to get all the above under someone like Trump than you would Hillary or even Obama.

Not saying I like or agree with the guy but if what you suggested is the best choice then Trump is more likely to enforce and endorse it.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
Okay, better than whatever drivel you posted before.

That's how your choosing to interpret it. They have their own religion, would you not agree? Not all sects of religion are equal. Whatever they're following is a twisted disgusting mess at this point.
 

Liberty4all

Banned
Some of that sounds like what Trump has promised, and you're still more likely to get all the above under someone like Trump than you would Hillary or even Obama.

Not saying I like or agree with the guy but if what you suggested is the best choice then Trump is more likely to enforce and endorse it.

Yep
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
But it seemed you've focused on one thing. I had issue with a part of Trumps statement.

That made it seem like imo and Islam vs Christianity. Like that's all they are targeting. But they'll kill anyone, any religion, any race, any background. That's what I mean by "they don't care." I probably shouldn't have used the word religion, but these people will kill indiscriminately if you don't agree with them.

Again I think you simply need to stick with what you're saying in terms of wording which is that you were wrong rather than continuing to try to spin it. I get your sentiment but your original post was dead wrong. And they hate certain groups more than others.
 
That's how your choosing to interpret it. They have their own religion, would you not agree? Not all sects of religion are equal. Whatever they're following is a twisted disgusting mess at this point.
Not all interpretations are created equal. To a layperson like you maybe.
 

Senoculum

Member
Listen you can feel some type of way about it, but they aren't solely attacking Christians and that's the main point. They'll kill anyone that doesn't support or join their warped view.

I don't know if you're issue is with ISIS or Islam as a whole, but you have millions of Muslims that practice Islam that don't adhere to that viewpoint.

So no, I'm not wrong when I say they aren't solely attacking Christians. It isn't Islam vs Christianity, because that does a huge disservice to the non christian people these savages have murdered.

I agree with you.

I feel that these acts of violence come from traditional thinking of "be killed to be heard." We have had monks who've doused themselves in flame to protest against injustices.

Everyone's so focused on future immigrants. Everyone appears to be focused on border policies. But how about the immigrants who are already here? How will we help them? Chances are there's an immigrant child that -- if we don't do anything to integrate them properly -- will be the next terrorist in 1,2,3,7, 15, 30 years from now. Abandonment condones horror. We should forge relationships with these communities. We're on NeoGAF for petes sake; we have the read the news: urban environments are fast growing, mixed children with mixed religions will be common, technology and enlightenment improves life.

At the end of the day; everyone on Earth wants to be heard, so some will naturally be yelling at the top of their lungs. We have to listen carefully.
 

Boke1879

Member
What do you think takes precedence - the old testament or the teachings of Christ ( a semi important figure in Christianity)

Does it matter? People have taken the bible and twisted it into whatever they want it to mean. People have used it to defend slavery.

If it's in the book you can take anything out of context and spin it. Most people don't even read it and just go off what their pastor says or what they deem is important.
 

Nester99

Member
The left needs to be honest with citizens about immigration. You are saving millions of people, but you will get an uptick in terrorism, violent crimes, etc in the next 10-20 years as people from very different cultures enter Western societies. It may get even worse as second and third generation feel dispossessed and lost, but the benefits are saving innocent people, introducing new youth into the workforce, and more diversity in our society. Its your choice whether you think saving people is worth the small rise in risk.

Instead what we get is the left saying "hey, we can help immigrants and NOTHING WILL CHANGE, and anyone who says otherwise is racist!" Well, when attacks happen the right has an obvious answer: stop all immigration, shit isn't working. If the other side is always claiming that nothing can go wrong, then when reality disagrees hard with the message then people stop trusting your side completely.

Good post
 

Buzzati

Banned
I agree with you.

I feel that these acts of violence come from traditional thinking of "be killed to be heard." We have had monks who've doused themselves in flame to protest against injustices.

Everyone's so focused on future immigrants. Everyone appears to be focused on border policies. But how about the immigrants who are already here? How will we help them? Chances are there's an immigrant child that -- if we don't do anything to integrate them properly -- will be the next terrorist in 1,2,3,7, 15, 30 years from now. Abandonment condones horror. We should forge relationships with these communities. We're on NeoGAF for petes sake; we have the read the news: urban environments are fast growing, mixed children with mixed religions will be common, technology and enlightenment improves life.

At the end of the day; everyone on Earth wants to be heard, so some will naturally be yelling at the top of their lungs. We have to listen carefully
.


I think I'm going to throw up.
 

ant_

not characteristic of ants at all
Does it matter? People have taken the bible and twisted it into whatever they want it to mean. People have used it to defend slavery.

If it's in the book you can take anything out of context and spin it. Most people don't even read it and just go off what their pastor says or what they deem is important.
Yes there is an important difference. Christianity has gone through a Reformation and even it's most radical followers do not follow things in the Old Testament (in 2016).

The Quran and the Hadith are on completely different levels and interpreted quite differently than the Bible. The Quran is literally taken to be the word of God (an important distinction).

I don't like either religion. But Islam is different than Christianity. The doctrines are completely different and inspire different things in the modern day.
 

Breakage

Member
You don't need to be a social scientist to see that swiftly allowing a million or so people from cultures that are far removed from the culture of the country taking them in isn't a good idea. What did everyone expect? Giving refugees from war torn Islamic nations the benefit of the doubt might be well and good, but it is also a security risk.

We're seeing people who are deliberately seeking refuge in safe European countries with the intention of never integrating and to make matters worse a desire to injure and kill people because of their religious beliefs.

I think Europe is fucked tbh especially when you factor in climate change and the effects it'll have on mass migration. We'll see more attacks, more lock downs, more deaths. The geographical location of Europe means more of these people can hop over under the disguise of being a desperate refugee. Unlike the US, Europe's destined to absorb low grade migrants with fucked up views.
 

Boke1879

Member
Yes there is an important difference. Christianity has gone through a Reformation and even it's most radical followers do not follow things in the Old Testament (in 2016).

The Quran and the Hadith are on completely different levels and interpreted quite differently than the Bible. The Quran is literally taken to be the word of God (an important distinction).

I don't like either religion. But Islam is different than Christianity. The doctrines are completely different and inspire different things in the modern day.

Again. You can use either book to push your whatever. KKK use it to push their racist ideology. Thankfully they have enough sense not to kill people on a massive scale.

Also lots of christian denominations teach the bible to be the word of God. It's literally a question they ask you when you're doing bible study.
 

mario_O

Member
What are Islamic schools of thought? You mean mosques? Do I have this right: You want the government to invest tax dollars in organizing positive doctrinal teachings in mosques?

What's wrong with that?

As an atheist I hate to say this, but in Spain religion is teached in public schools and supervised by the government. At least this way you know what they're teaching kids in school is not a radical version.

I remember reading that one the biggest mistakes in France was going 100% secular and not subsidizing religion in public schools. Many radical imams from north Africa came to France to teach Islam without any control.
 

Nozomi

Banned
I agree with you.

I feel that these acts of violence come from traditional thinking of "be killed to be heard." We have had monks who've doused themselves in flame to protest against injustices.

Everyone's so focused on future immigrants. Everyone appears to be focused on border policies. But how about the immigrants who are already here? How will we help them? Chances are there's an immigrant child that -- if we don't do anything to integrate them properly -- will be the next terrorist in 1,2,3,7, 15, 30 years from now. Abandonment condones horror. We should forge relationships with these communities. We're on NeoGAF for petes sake; we have the read the news: urban environments are fast growing, mixed children with mixed religions will be common, technology and enlightenment improves life.

At the end of the day; everyone on Earth wants to be heard, so some will naturally be yelling at the top of their lungs. We have to listen carefully.

Yeah its also allways my first thought to blew innocent people up or just drive over them if im not getting heard.

Just wtf am i reading here?
 

Buzzati

Banned
What's wrong with that?

As an atheist I hate to say this, but in Spain religion is teached in public schools and supervised by the government. At least this way you know what they're teaching kids in school is not a radical version.

I remember reading that one the biggest mistakes in France was going 100% secular and not subsidizing religion in public schools. Many radical imams from north Africa came to France to teach Islam without any control.

I just have a hunch that a Western government using tax dollars to organize a "safe" curriculum for mosques won't go over too well with Muslims. Forcing non-Muslims to pay a tithe to mosques will be a fun adventure, too. Keep the government out of religion.
 

Ryuukan

Member
I agree with you.

I feel that these acts of violence come from traditional thinking of "be killed to be heard." We have had monks who've doused themselves in flame to protest against injustices.

Everyone's so focused on future immigrants. Everyone appears to be focused on border policies. But how about the immigrants who are already here? How will we help them? Chances are there's an immigrant child that -- if we don't do anything to integrate them properly -- will be the next terrorist in 1,2,3,7, 15, 30 years from now. Abandonment condones horror. We should forge relationships with these communities. We're on NeoGAF for petes sake; we have the read the news: urban environments are fast growing, mixed children with mixed religions will be common, technology and enlightenment improves life.

At the end of the day; everyone on Earth wants to be heard, so some will naturally be yelling at the top of their lungs. We have to listen carefully.

putting self-immolation in the same boat as mass murder is terrible, you should be ashamed of yourself.
 

Boke1879

Member
What's wrong with that?

As an atheist I hate to say this, but in Spain religion is teached in public schools and supervised by the government. At least this way you know what they're teaching kids in school is not a radical version.

I remember reading that one the biggest mistakes in France was going 100% secular and not subsidizing religion in public schools. Many radical imams from north Africa came to France to teach Islam without any control.

At least here in the States that's not going to fly and I wouldn't want it to. At most you get the history of religions. The Right may try to institute, you'll never get religion taught in public schools.

You'd start some shit if anyone tried to propose that.
 
Inevitable. But there's still much to be done here at home.

Problem is that there is no state behind this. ISIS is not a state that you can conquer and be done with it. Even if Trump invades syria and iraq to liquidate ISIS there will be the next terror organization that is born lut of the misery of those nations that got casulties due to the war on terror

At home there is np other way to prevent this kind of thing then having full surveillance everywhere whihh means byebye to civil rights
 

Airola

Member
Not in the old testament.

I hope you realize you are essentially telling that Judaism tells us to stone women.
In case you didn't know, The Old Testament is Jewish text. The New Testament is Christian text. So if you are trying to throw Christians under the bus with that statement, you are in fact doing so more to the Jews than to the Christians. Might not want to be labeled as anti-semite here ;)
 

Boke1879

Member
I just have a hunch that a Western government using tax dollars to organize a "safe" curriculum for mosques won't go over too well with Muslims or tax tithing non-Muslims. Keep the government out of religion.

Not even that, but try and say you're gonna put religion in public schools? Shit you'd have everyone on Capitol Hill against that.
 

Boke1879

Member
I hope you realize you are essentially telling that Judaism tells us to stone women.
In case you didn't know, The Old Testament is Jewish text. The New Testament is Christian text. So if you are trying to throw Christians under the bus with that statement, you are in fact doing so more to the Jews than to the Christians. Might not want to be labeled as anti-semite here ;)

Not labeling anyone, but it is in the Holy Bible. That Christians read. That Christians do quote. IN which you are supposed to take the whole book as gospel.
 

Keasar

Member
Jesus fuck....

I just read the news about this, my condolences and hope the death toll doesn't rise anymore. :(

Stay safe Germany.
 

ant_

not characteristic of ants at all
Again. You can use either book to push your whatever. KKK use it to push their racist ideology. Thankfully they have enough sense not to kill people on a massive scale.

Also lots of christian denominations teach the bible to be the word of God. It's literally a question they ask you when you're doing bible study.

I agree with you; both doctrines are open to interpretation. It is however NOT a coincidence that Islam is more prone to violence in the modern era. Islam is a completely different doctrine than Christianity and should be treated as such.

To dilute this by saying "all religions are the same!" is wrong. It's important to acknowledge Islam as it is. Islam's doctrines has more clear modicums of violence, Jihad, and is much more hostile towards infidels.
 
What are Islamic schools of thought? You mean mosques? Do I have this right: You want the government to invest tax dollars in organizing positive doctrinal teachings in mosques?


No, mosques are vessels in teaching said schools of thought, which is why you have mosques, or rather imams, who declare them selves as from a particular school of thought, for example a shafi imam, or a amedi imam, or the obvious one, a whahabbi imam.The schools of thought are made up of people who study the vast texts of Islam, not just the Quran, and the Hadith, then determine what applies to Muslims.

To your second point, maybe not in years past, before the turn of the century however the situation is becoming worse, so I personally would like to see a move in this investment of funding of positive, tolerant, progressive, workable, "liberal" views and ideologies of Islam.

As Islam grows more and more in the west, this would be a good long term investment, and a way to secure the European or national way of life.

I'll have to concede at this point, but Russia(!) does this with religion and it worked out well so far, from what I recently researched. Despite the enormous checyan and Islamic problems they had, eventually they invested in Islamic schools of thought, booted out the radical, dangerous, cancerous schools of thought. What came about was a mutual beneficial relationship between the two parties. I certainly won't defend thier actions and human rights records, yet Russia has had a major history with radical Islam. Rather then go full trump, and yes I am aware of the wars that happened there, they tried a different tack, eventually.
 
RIP to the victims of this atrocity. This whole refugee crisis has been poorly handled. Even though David Cameron is and always will be a dumb fuck overall, his refugee policy turned out to be a good idea by taking people in directly from the conflict zone. Proper vetting is needed so we can only let in people who have good intentions. I'd say large scale migration in the numbers seen today should only happen with people with some kind of skill to equip them to succeed in the modern job market and therefore can integrate. Don't really see Chinese people for example living in Europe causing any issues. I'm tempted to suggest a 2 tier immigration system which favours certain countries over others and making it very easy for people from 'preferred' countries to move to Europe and not so easy for others, but that does sound discriminatory.
 

Airola

Member
Not labeling anyone, but it is in the Holy Bible. That Christians read. That Christians do quote. IN which you are supposed to take the whole book as gospel.

Well now you are not understanding the word gospel and what it means. One part of the book literally is the gospel. And it's not in the old testament. And it does not involve stoning (other than the story related to that gospel where Jesus tells to not stone a woman).


EDIT:
ugh, I kinda feel bad for pushing some sort of a christian apologism into this thread, when the actual tragedy doesn't really call this into discussion at all, sorry :/
 
RIP to the victims of this atrocity. This whole refugee crisis has been poorly handled. Even though David Cameron is and always will be a dumb fuck overall, his refugee policy turned out to be a good idea by taking people in directly from the conflict zone. Proper vetting is needed so we can only let in people who have good intentions. I'd say large scale migration in the numbers seen today should only happen with people with some kind of skill to equip them to succeed in the modern job market and therefore can integrate. Don't really see Chinese people for example living in Europe causing any issues. I'm tempted to suggest a 2 tier immigration system which favours certain countries over others and making it very easy for people from 'preferred' countries to move to Europe and not so easy for others, but that does sound discriminatory.
So

people with skill -= welcome
People withput skill = please die from russia and assads bombs


I think you are missing the point of asylum

Also there already is a multi-tiered system

European= Freedom of movement
US citizen, Japanese, Korean, Swiss etc. = travel for 3 month without visa possible in some cases even direct application for residence permit possible
Others= please wait 6 month until you get a visa (or come in and apply for asylum)
 

Buzzati

Banned
No, mosques are vessels in teaching said schools of thought, which is why you have mosques, or rather imams, who declare them selves as from a particular school of thought, for example a shafi imam, or a amedi imam, or the obvious one, a whahabbi imam.The schools of thought are made up of people who study the vast texts of Islam, not just the Quran, and the Hadith, then determine what applies to Muslims.

To your second point, maybe not in years past, before the turn of the century however the situation is becoming worse, so I personally would like to see a move in this investment of funding of positive, tolerant, progressive, workable, "liberal" views and ideologies of Islam.

As Islam grows more and more in the west, this would be a good long term investment, and a way to secure the European or national way of life.

I'll have to concede at this point, but Russia(!) does this with religion and it worked out well so far, from what I recently researched. Despite the enormous checyan and Islamic problems they had, eventually they invested in Islamic schools of thought, booted out the radical, dangerous, cancerous schools of thought. What came about was a mutual beneficial relationship between the two parties. I certainly won't defend thier actions and human rights records, yet Russia has had a major history with radical Islam. Rather then go full trump, and yes I am aware of the wars that happened there, they tried a different tack, eventually.

I understand where your heart is, but I think you're confusing Russia's harsh campaigns of religious suppression as some sort of organic and workable treatment of reform. Ultimately secularization and liberalization is going to have to come from reform Muslims who won't be demonized as Islamophobic for demanding a neoliberal standard for their religion, not governments. If I had to choose one way to accelerate attacks in Europe, it would be for state-sponsored religious reform - that would be incredibly threatening. Not only that, but it's a nationalists wet dream to be able to point at actual government policy and say that their nation is being taken over by the Muslim demographic who's religion and culture is being subsidized and promoted on everyone else's dime.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
12 people died because of one piece of shit and his twisted views

im sorry but getting this many people in without vetting them was just insane


Wait, was this guy id'd as a Syrian immigrant? I am late on this I admit, but I thought they hadn't id'd him at all.
 
Are you saying it's impossible to distinguish Eastern European from Western European people?

Huh what?

Anyway, Bild is not the most trusted outlet, but they are usually accurate.

With Breaking News they usually are because their reporters are good connected. Same for sports news from them. Journalistic conetent is another matter.

Quoting this after Bild has, repeatedly, reported complete and utter bullshit (culprit supposedly "Eastern European looking" whatever the fuck that is) and yet you find people on the internet defending that shitpile of a newspaper because they are "usually accurate" lmfao. Just how often can they afford to report garbage until people get sceptical? Don't ever quote Bild. Don't ever quote Bild. Don't ever quote Bild. I cannot repeat this enough.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
I read what you said. What I'm saying is ISIS' interpretation is not equally valid as mine.

And I said the same fucking thing. I said you interpreted my post as a slight on your religion. I never implied your interpretation on your religion was incorrect. In fact I implied Isis religion isn't Islam, its some warped mess that has become it's own beast and the followers have been brainwashed. I'd prefer not to be insulted because you misread my post, thanks.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Well now you are not understanding the word gospel and what it means. One part of the book literally is the gospel. And it's not in the old testament. And it does not involve stoning (other than the story related to that gospel where Jesus tells to not stone a woman).


EDIT:
ugh, I kinda feel bad for pushing some sort of a christian apologism into this thread, when the actual tragedy doesn't really call this into discussion at all, sorry :/


Yup and just to pile on the semantics, and books ARE semantics, gospel is now a common term for "absolute truth" so his argument, for what its worth, means something different than a distinction between screeds.
 
And I said the same fucking thing. I said you interpreted my post as a slight on your religion. I never implied your interpretation on your religion was incorrect. In fact I implied Isis religion isn't Islam, its some warped mess that has become it's own beast and the followers have been brainwashed. I'd prefer not to be insulted because you misread my post, thanks.
You said sects. Islam has two main sects. ISIS is not a sect. Sects can be valid. They are a sunni hardline group. We had them in past called Kharijites.
 

Sunster

Member
Yes there is an important difference. Christianity has gone through a Reformation and even it's most radical followers do not follow things in the Old Testament (in 2016).

The Quran and the Hadith are on completely different levels and interpreted quite differently than the Bible. The Quran is literally taken to be the word of God (an important distinction).

I don't like either religion. But Islam is different than Christianity. The doctrines are completely different and inspire different things in the modern day.

By some.
 

Senoculum

Member
putting self-immolation in the same boat as mass murder is terrible, you should be ashamed of yourself.

It was an example of violence that appears inexplicable to the West.

Under a different lens, it is a case martyrdom.

It is a means to an end, and I do not see a wide enough distinction between mindsets (sacrifice of either the self, of others, or the self along with others). e.g A political suicide bomber.

This type of violence had already happened before, and there's going to be more of it. So you didn't answer my question, which is basically: where is our place in helping the disenfranchised?
 
I'd say large scale migration in the numbers seen today should only happen with people with some kind of skill to equip them to succeed in the modern job market and therefore can integrate.

I don't really see the connection to the refugee situation, given that these recent terror attacks in Europe and the US have been carried out by local population that radicalized, and not refugees.
How exactly would limiting the number of refugees or better vetting help when its someone who has been in there for years or even their entire life who radicalizes?
 
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