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[QuicheFontaine]

1) Where they came from, if non-refoulement allows it, and assuming there are contracts with the origin countries (and if there aren't then putting proper economic pressure on those countries)
2) Interesting. Yet there seems to be enough money to afford a million of refugees, their rent, german courses and other stuff while the budget is still net positive at the end of the year

Expect to be told these migrants are actually a net positive for the economy

Spoiler

(that's why all EU countries with lots of them are trying to ship them elsewhere)

 

[killatopak]

holy shit man.


rip.


is the suspect still not caught?

 

[Dalibor68]

Exactly.


even you could apply for asylum and get rejected. No open door needed.


You are aware that refugees do not get asylum, right? Or do you just throw some words around without knowing their definition?

Stop playing dumb. You don't just travel on foot from Tunisia to germany, he used the refugee stream and uncontrolled immigration/border crossing to get into the country where he then applied and fooled the authorities.

It's incredbily saddening to which lenghts some users will go because they cannot accept that shit isn't working as obviously illustrated by what we know so far about this case.

Saying this has nothing to do with the immigration policy is plain factually wrong.

Did he magically skip countries, or did other countries decide to let refugees through so they would be the problem of someone else? This is the result of ignoring the problem for decades.
Also given that you are still around, have you found an answer to what I asked for in #1006 yet?

Even if that was the case, other countries letting them pass through does not somehow mean it was normal for germany to have an open door policy.

And as for your old post, I guess all the refugees suddenly carrying german flags and merkel pictures and interviews saying "merkel will save us" were just made up then. And the fact that they started campaigns in Afghanistan to discourage people from trying to get to germany. And the fact that suddenly everypass was supposedly syrian and fake syrian passes everywhere.

 

[EloKa]

Stop playing dumb. You don't just travel on foot from Tunisia to germany, he used the refugee stream and uncontrolled immigration/border crossing to get into the country where he then applied and fooled the authorities.

Oh, so you were there? Didn't know that.

Again (even if you keep on ignoring it because it doesn't fit your propaganda):
every single human on the earth can travel to germany and try to ask for asyl. This law exists in germany (to be exact: German Confederation) since 1834 and no, Merkel wasn't chancellor yet at that time.

 

[Chuckie]

You are aware that refugees do not get asylum, right? Or do you just throw some words around without knowing their definition?

.

In the UK, a person is officially a refugee when they have their claim for asylum accepted by the government.

And it is like that in the Netherlands too. So I am guessing Germany too. A person can seek asylum for different reasons but it will probably only be granted if they are also refugees.

You are right though that this was not a refugee. He was an asylum seeker though.

 

[Dalibor68]

Oh, so you were there? Didn't know that.

Again (even if you keep on ignoring it because it doesn't fit your propaganda):
every single human on the earth can travel to germany and try to ask for asyl. This law exists in germany (to be exact: German Confederation) since 1834 and no, Merkel wasn't chancellor yet at that time.

Again. Stop playing dumb. No, not everyone can just travel to Germany. If this guy was affiliated with terrorist groups and already committed crimes by using fake data before then he would have been stopped if there had been proper border controls. Try travelling to the US with a fake ID and good luck. If there is a huge stream of uncontrolled mass migration illegally crossing into a countries border then of course it is easier to get in by blending into those masses and then ask for asylum once you're inside already.

 

[EloKa]

Again. Stop playing dumb. No, not everyone can just travel to Germany. If this guy was affiliated with terrorist groups and already committed crimes by using fake data before then he would have been stopped if there had been proper border controls. Try travelling to the US with a fake ID and good luck. If there is a huge stream of uncontrolled mass migration illegally crossing into a countries border then of course it is easier to get in by blending into those masses and then ask for asylum once you're inside already.

Everyone. Can. Travel. To. Germany. And. Ask. For. Asyl.

 

[Hisoka]

Exactly.


even you could come here - apply for asylum and get rejected. No open door needed.


You are aware that refugees do not get asylum, right? Or do you just throw some words around without knowing their definition?

You sure are close minded in your own way, open minded one.

 

[Dalibor68]

Everyone. Can. Travel. To. Germany. And. Ask. For. Asyl.

Good, I see you are not interested in reasonable discussion, so I'll leave it be with you.

 

[Audioboxer]

Stop playing dumb. You don't just travel on foot from Tunisia to germany, he used the refugee stream and uncontrolled immigration/border crossing to get into the country where he then applied and fooled the authorities.

It's incredbily saddening to which lenghts some users will go because they cannot accept that shit isn't working as obviously illustrated by what we know so far about this case.

Saying this has nothing to do with the immigration policy is plain factually wrong.

People cannot detach in their minds that humans all have individual agency and if you are in a minority category you somehow need to be addressed as if you were a homogeneous blob. At times I refer to this as the bigotry of low expectations. You also see it fairly often on GAF with the users who say "my people..." all the time. No one speaks for everyone, it doesn't matter what category you belong to. To fall down that rabbit hole is to quickly lose nuance and set yourself up for some ridiculous hand-waving at times. If you think you address "all your people" then of course you stutter and trip up when faced with someone committing an atrocity who is "part of your people".

Hence why sensible, responsible, adult like discussions have to happen around immigration and refugees as people ARE abusing the systems, and the colour of their skin, country of origin or religion are not things to defend them on if they commit atrocities where innocent life is lost. We need to look at where the systems we currently have are failing to try and help prevent loss of life. That should be the highest matter of importance right now. Boots on the street with guns around Christmas markets is a stop-gap measure, unless we want to live in countries where every year we need our festive holidays swamped with guns?

Given the information we have so far, if factual, this is a shockingly bad failing on behalf of the German government and forces to deal with someone they knew was a problem. Hence why the poor taste opportunistic right wing nasties get sympathy with the "Merkel" blaming.

 

[ittoryu]

1) Where they came from, if non-refoulement allows it, and assuming there are contracts with the origin countries (and if there aren't then putting proper economic pressure on those countries)
2) Interesting. Yet there seems to be enough money to afford a million of refugees, their rent, german courses and other stuff while the budget is still net positive at the end of the year

1) This doesn't answer my question. If the country where they are from is refusing them, where do you send them?
2) Because this is only related to Germany? I thought the discussion was also including other countries, as Germany doesn't seem the only one in EU? Also: the budget can be positive: still, do you realise how much would it cost to have a system that would send everyone home like you dream of? Exactly how are you sending them home also? On the first offence? On the first rejection? On what basis?

 

[El Topo]

Even if that was the case, other countries letting them pass through does not somehow mean it was normal for germany to have an open door policy.

What do you mean by open door policy? Germany is part of Schengen.

And as for your old post, I guess all the refugees suddenly carrying german flags and merkel pictures and interviews saying "merkel will save us" were just made up then. And the fact that they started campaigns in Afghanistan to discourage people from trying to get to germany. And the fact that suddenly everypass was supposedly syrian and fake syrian passes everywhere.

What you are offering me is at best anecdotal evidence, it doesn't explain or quantify anything. That is what I would call simpleton logic.
I'm asking for a reliable assessment of the immigration (and thus a quantification of Merkel's statement).

You seem to believe that without Merkel's statement all these people would not have come to Europe. That should be fairly easy to back up.

 

[Django.Mango]

And this is just one example. Times this shit show by a million and you might begin to understand why open door immigration is dangerous and unworkable and the people who raise questions aren't all just far right racists.

It worked in the past and it will work for the next years too. European states (not just the union) have to work together (Security, networking etc) as this is a huge challenge after the wars in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Irak etc.pp. But putting brutal, sociopathetic murderers as an argument against the (well done in the past) politics, youre doing the fanatics a favour by giving up our freedom values.

There are hysteric, fast times these days with hysteria media blowouts, but calm reflection should be the better choice.

"Bild" has to be treat with caution, its a rotten publication spreading hatred and fear and violating privacy its not even funny anymore.

 

[EloKa]

Good, I see you are not interested in reasonable discussion, so I'll leave it be with you.

are you really that dense? You propably don't care about the definition of "asylum seeker" and "refugee" because both types are foreigners and well.. you made it clear often enough about how you think about them.

Doesn't change the fact that both asylum seekers and refugees have different rights and are treated different by the law. And everyone on this planet can become an asylum seeker in germany since more than 182 years.

And yeah, I am not interested in your kind of "reasonable" discussion because I don't share your ideology.

 

[mnz]

He's not an asylum seeker, though. He got rejected. That's the problem.

 

[Dalibor68]

1) This doesn't answer my question. If the country where they are from is refusing them, where do you send them?
2) Because this is only related to Germany? I thought the discussion was also including other countries, as Germany doesn't seem the only one in EU? Also: the budget can be positive: still, do you realise how much would it cost to have a system that would send everyone home like you dream of? Exactly how are you sending them home also? On the first offence? On the first rejection? On what basis?

1) We are not living in a time-vacuum. If such a state, whether it's Afghanistan, Tunisia or someone else, does not take their citizens back then you put economic pressure on them until they give in. Expecting someone to take back their own citizens is not some crazy ridiculous thing to ask of states. Unless such deals are reached and there are no other legal possibilities in the meanwhile you can not deport them into nowhere.

2) This thread is about a terror attack in Germany and germany took in the most refugees and was the most vocal pro-refugee country last year. The only other countries that took as many refugees (and where refugees were "willing" to go) per capita were Austria and Sweden who are in comparison also rather rich states still. Of course it won't be cheap but if you can afford a million of refugees along with all the german courses, rent payments and other initiatves as well as future prospects of extreme difficulties in social systems then you can pay enough authorities to build a proper immigration and deportation control system.

What do you mean by open door policy? Germany is part of Schengen.

And as you are hopefully well aware the basis of free movement within of Schengen is secured exterior borders. That was obviously not the case last year and still isn't in Italy and as such it was obvious to install border controls as long as the exterior borders are not secured properly. I mean right now germany controls the border to austria 24/7 so it's not some crazy fantasy. The difference being that they didn't do it back in 2015 and not in anywhere near the quality of border controls that would have been requried to be able to continue to keep security up.

What you are offering me is at best anecdotal evidence, it doesn't explain or quantify anything. That is what I would call simpleton logic.
I'm asking for a reliable assessment of the immigration (and thus a quantification of Merkel's statement).

You seem to believe that without Merkel's statement all these people would not have come to Europe. That should be fairly easy to back up.

Of course the migration streams were already very high in the months before and the people did not just beam there once Merkel made her statement. So good thing I never said that. I purposefully said she signal-boosted the message of "Syrians are welcome here" which led to the increase of fake passes, people thinking germany is now taking in everyone and further encouraging migration movement. As did pictures of people clapping on the train stations to refugees arriving. Pretty much every european politician that isn't from germany agrees nowadays that Merkels statement was a mistake. Even her own sister-party agrees.

 

[EloKa]

He's not an asylum seeker, though. He got rejected. That's the problem.

That's a valid point. Once you get rejected you either have to leave immediately or you're granted up to 6 months to stay (for very few reasons) until you're forced to leave. They need to investigate why he was granted some staying time under the given circumstances (it isn't clear yet how long it was) and managed to vanish into the underground few weeks ago.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

He's not an asylum seeker, though. He got rejected. That's the problem.

I think the logic here works like this:

1. This person comes to Germany from Tunisia an asylum seeker.
2. Asylum claim is rejected, and this person also apparently commits an assault (?) and goes underground.
3. He commits this terrorist action.
4. Far-right media says that this is because of the German government letting in lots of Syrian and Afghan refugees.

As has been pointed out, he went to Germany seeking asylum, not as a refugee. Blaming the German government's refugee policy seems to be missing some justification.

That's a valid point. Once you get rejected you either have to leave immediately or you're granted up to 6 months to stay (for very few reasons) until you're forced to leave. They need to investigate why he was granted some staying time under the given circumstances (it isn't clear yet how long it was) and managed to vanish into the underground few weeks ago.

Yup - I'd expect a full enquiry in time to determine the intelligence failings in this case.

 

[RedSparrows]

Expect to be told these migrants are actually a net positive for the economy

Spoiler

(that's why all EU countries with lots of them are trying to ship them elsewhere)

In certain contexts they are. In others they are not. Nuance, wow, mindblowing.

 

[Salty Rice]

stop.

He isnt wrong. There are immigrants here that did like 30 crimes of theft and still not deported. Its a joke.

Everybody comes easily in but if people needed to be deported they cant get their shit together.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

He isnt wrong. There are immigrants here that did like 30 crimes of theft and still not deported. Its a joke.

 

[ittoryu]

1) We are not living in a time-vacuum. If such a state, whether it's Afghanistan, Tunisia or someone else, does not take their citizens back then you put economic pressure on them until they give in. Expecting someone to take back their own citizens is not some crazy ridiculous thing to ask of states. Unless such deals are reached and there are no other legal possibilities in the meanwhile you can not deport them into nowhere.

2) This thread is about a terror attack in Germany and germany took in the most refugees and was the most vocal pro-refugee country last year. The only other countries that took as many refugees (and where refugees were "willing" to go) per capita were Austria and Sweden who are in comparison also rather rich states still. Of course it won't be cheap but if you can afford a million of refugees along with all the german courses, rent payments and other initiatves as well as future prospects of extreme difficulties in social systems then you can pay enough authorities to build a proper immigration and deportation control system.

1) What do you do when you are awaiting a response from these countries? You keep them in prison? When exactly do you think someone should be deported? You do realise that is super easy to just scream "ALL OUT!" rather than looking at how things actually work, right?

2)This thread is about so much more than that for a while now: as everyone seem to have the perfect solution to the refugee crisis with a "kick them out", it's time that the same people can bring real answers as well. I am still waiting to understand how Italy can become like UK, but it seems that the person telling me that has just disappeared. Again: I am not saying that the logic behind is wrong, I am saying that if the EU and the individual countries are not willing to do something about it (because other things have priority, because no one wants to deal with them and because of a million other reasons, such as "we shouldn't spend money to help them"), then it's all a bunch of "bla bla bla". Italy and Greece have been asking for help for years and they have been ignored for as much time.

 

[mnz]

As has been pointed out, he went to Germany seeking asylum, not as a refugee. Blaming the German government's refugee policy seems to be missing some justification.

I'm not sure I understand the differentiation. Seeking asylum is literally what refugees do when they arrive. The administration then decides if this is granted or not. Until then they are "Asylbewerber" aka asylum seekers.

 

[MUnited83]

are you really that dense? You propably don't care about the definition of "asylum seeker" and "refugee" because both types are foreigners and well.. you made it clear often enough about how you think about them.

Doesn't change the fact that both asylum seekers and refugees have different rights and are treated different by the law. And everyone on this planet can become an asylum seeker in germany since more than 182 years.

And yeah, I am not interested in your kind of "reasonable" discussion because I don't share your ideology.

The fact that the dude spent pages arguing about what "native" means and arguing about distinction between "real natives" and now just dismisses the difference between asylum seekers and refugees tells you all you need to know really.

 

[Chuckie]

As has been pointed out, he went to Germany seeking asylum, not as a refugee. Blaming the German government's refugee policy seems to be missing some justification.

Refugees also seek asylum. Difference is they are asylum seekers whose asylum has been granted.

Some of the complaints here though seemed to be about the immigration policies of Germany, i.e. how hard it apparently is to deport a person whose asylum has been rejected.

 

[hEist]

Let us wait and see, if he is indeed the guy, he is still just a suspect. After the witch hunt about the poor Pakistani guy (here and also in the media), it's not the right moment to discuss about subjects like refugee regulations/seeking asylum/etc.

The wallet could have also be placed there...I know it's sounds absurd, but it is also a possibility.

 

[Dalibor68]

2)This thread is about so much more than that for a while now: as everyone seem to have the perfect solution to the refugee crisis with a "kick them out", it's time that the same people can bring real answers as well. I am still waiting to understand how Italy can become like UK, but it seems that the person telling me that has just disappeared. Again: I am not saying that the logic behind is wrong, I am saying that if the EU and the individual countries are not willing to do something about it (because other things have priority, because no one wants to deal with them and because of a million other reasons, such as "we shouldn't spend money to help them"), then it's all a bunch of "bla bla bla". Italy and Greece have been asking for help for years and they have been ignored for as much time.

Of course there are solutions. As the austrian foreign minister has proposed, the australian model of a) destroying smuggler boats at the shores and b) bringing those from the sea to refugee islands where they either get deported back or if their claim is viable sent to a country NOT of their choosing. As long as a boot on the ground of continental europe means a ticket to austria/germany/sweden people will not stop coming and dying in the mediterranian. Additionally to completely curbing this illegal immigration as much as possible the monetary support for support in the regions themselves has to be massively increased as well as legal possibilities created such as taking contigents directly from the war zones themselves (families, old people, overall those that are the weakest and need help the most, instead of 70%+ young men also from non-warzones all over the place) as the UK has done.

But many european politicians are still at "No but the morals!" stage while at the same time paying a turkish dictator to keep away refugees whatever way necessary from the balkan route so I guess it will take some more time and unfortunately possibly more attacks until this solution will come into effect.

The fact that the dude spent pages arguing about what "native" means and arguing about distinction between "real natives" and now just dismisses the difference between asylum seekers and refugees tells you all you need to know really.

It tells you that you have no idea what you are even talking about. We are using refugees here as a broader term or otherwise we would have to differentiate between refugees / asylum seekers / economic migrants in every post which nobody is going to do as it's literally just semantics in the context of this current discussion. There are no "born" refugees, everybody is an asylum seeker until it has been determined that you are indeed a refugee in the sense of the relevant contracts and thus granted asylum.

 

[EloKa]

Refugees also seek asylum. Difference is they are asylum seekers whose asylum has been granted.

They don't.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think the logic here works like this:

1. This person comes to Germany from Tunisia an asylum seeker.
2. Asylum claim is rejected, and this person also apparently commits an assault (?) and goes underground.
3. He commits this terrorist action.
4. Far-right media says that this is because of the German government letting in lots of Syrian and Afghan refugees.

As has been pointed out, he went to Germany seeking asylum, not as a refugee. Blaming the German government's refugee policy seems to be missing some justification.



Yup - I'd expect a full enquiry in time to determine the intelligence failings in this case.

There is nuance there that doesn't mean legitimising far-right rhetoric. If some liberals ignore the nuance it is precisely what pisses off fellow liberals and causes more far-right sympathy.

At the very least bringing in the amounts of people Germany did at once makes it insanely hard to oversee anyone abusing the system, current or in the past. The government gets stretched thin trying to handle the volumes. Governments should not be putting themselves carelessly in such positions as it potentially leads to failing to protect their citizens.

It's almost as if people in here are forgetting Germany has already had problems ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

Victims

At least 24 alleged rapes:
22 complaints in Cologne[2]
2 complaints in Hamburg[3]
Nearly 2,300 sexual assaults and robberies reported:
1,616 crimes in Cologne[2][4][5][6][7]
296 in Düsseldorf[2]
236 in Hamburg
More in other cities[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]
A total of 1,950+ victims[15][16][17][18][19]

Number of participants

2,000+[20]

 

[Chuckie]

They don't.

Yes they do. You seek asylum because you need protection from persecution in your own country. If this is in large groups because war the process is no longer on an individual base but they are granted asylum anyway. They do this with refugees that come in large groups.

National asylum systems are in place to determine who qualifies for international protection. However, during mass movements of refugees, usually as a result of conflict or violence, it is not always possible or necessary to conduct individual interviews with every asylum seeker who crosses a border. These groups are often called ‘prima facie’ refugees.

 

[ittoryu]

Of course there are solutions. As the austrian foreign minister has proposed, the australian model of a) destroying smuggler boats at the shores and b) bringing those from the sea to refugee islands where they either get deported back or if their claim is viable sent to a country NOT of their choosing. As long as a boot on the ground of continental europe means a ticket to austria/germany/sweden people will not stop coming and dying in the mediterranian. Additionally to completely curbing this illegal immigration as much as possible the monetary support for support in the regions themselves has to be massively increased as well as legal possibilities created such as taking contigents directly from the war zones themselves (families, old people, overall those that are the weakest and need help the most, instead of 70%+ young men also from non-warzones all over the place) as the UK has done.

But many european politicians are still at "No but the morals!" stage while at the same time paying a turkish dictator to keep away refugees whatever way necessary from the balkan route so I guess it will take some more time and unfortunately possibly more attacks until this solution will come into effect.

I don't want to monopolise the thread, but that doesn't seem to be working very well, considering the the UK have built a wall and considering that in Calais people got in the UK under trucks, etc.

Sorry mate, but the refugee island is a horrible concept and I really don't feel like even talking about this.
Shall we create some camps maybe with some iron just in case no one tries to escape? How about we make them work a bit as well?

Sorry, I just can't.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

In certain contexts they are. In others they are not. Nuance, wow, mindblowing.

I had no idea nuance was welcome in this thread!

But many european politicians are still at "No but the morals!" stage while at the same time paying a turkish dictator to keep away refugees whatever way necessary from the balkan route so I guess it will take some more time and unfortunately possibly more attacks until this solution will come into effect.

This is one of the reasons why 'other' politicians are rising in popularity across Europe.

 

[mnz]

They don't.

Of course they do, that's what being a refugee in Germany is. You've been granted asylum.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I think the logic here works like this:

1. This person comes to Germany from Tunisia an asylum seeker.
2. Asylum claim is rejected, and this person also apparently commits an assault (?) and goes underground.
3. He commits this terrorist action.
4. Far-right media says that this is because of the German government letting in lots of Syrian and Afghan refugees.

As has been pointed out, he went to Germany seeking asylum, not as a refugee. Blaming the German government's refugee policy seems to be missing some justification.



Yup - I'd expect a full enquiry in time to determine the intelligence failings in this case.

Came to post this but I'm happy someone else did.
Not suprised the Anti muslim defence force are in here trying to make it about Germanys refugee situation.

 

[EloKa]

Of course they do, that's what being a refugee in Germany is. You've been granted asylum.

Nope. You're granted the right of residence, not asylum.
You can basically say that Refugees are getting treated by the Geneva Convention while asylum seekers are treated by the article 16a of the german consitution.

Both groups have different rights, obligations and especially different requirements.

 

[Kinyou]

They don't.

It might be time to elaborate your definition. From what I understand do all the refugees apply for asylum.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Sounds like we need some facts in here, so - Wikipedia!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_Germany

 

[Huw_Dawson]

It's almost as if people in here are forgetting Germany has already had problems ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

Could you quickly cite something on that article to link this to refugee policy to make this clearer? Providing stats without context is meaningless.

From that article though:

On 7 June, a Federal Criminal Police Office report confirmed that most of the perpetrators were of North African origin and had arrived in Germany during the European migrant crisis. Investigative results about the perpetrators were congruent with witnesses' statements.

 

[Audioboxer]

Could you quickly cite something on that article to link this to refugee policy to make this clearer? Providing stats without context is meaningless.

Read the link?

On 7 June, a Federal Criminal Police Office report confirmed that most of the perpetrators were of North African origin and had arrived in Germany during the European migrant crisis. Investigative results about the perpetrators were congruent with witnesses' statements.[47] Perpetrators benefited from weak criminal prosecution and low police presence. Group dynamics and personal frustration among the offenders also fuelled the crimes. The report also linked the assaults to the phenomenon of taharrush jamai in Arab countries.[48]

On 8 January, Cologne Police announced the arrest of two suspects in connection with the attacks. They were identified—in keeping with German privacy law—as Issam D., a 16-year-old Moroccan; and Mohamed T., a 23-year-old Tunisian. Both were said to be asylum seekers. The police reported that they found video footage of assaults on New Year's Eve on their mobile phones. The suspects were also found in possession of a piece of paper with Arabic-German translations of derogatory sexual terms and phrases including "I want sex with you" and "I will kill you".[111] Both of them were set free shortly after their arrest.[112]

As of 8 January, federal police had identified 31 suspects, among whom were 18 identified asylum seekers. Of these, 17 were said by the Interior Ministry to be from Algeria or Morocco. Two Germans and one U.S. citizen were among the suspects identified.[113] An additional 19 suspects were later identified by Cologne's police as being "almost exclusively" migrants. Of the 19 suspects identified on 11 January, 14 were men from Morocco and Algeria. Ten of the 19 were asylum seekers, nine of whom had arrived in Germany after September 2015; the other nine suspects may have been residing in the country illegally.[114][115] The number of identified suspects had risen to 23 by 12 January. The department of public prosecution opened criminal proceedings against 13 people, five of whom were in detention at that time.[116][40][41][69][71]

On 19 January, it was reported that there was a first arrest because of allegations of sexual offences. The detainee was a 26-year old Algerian who was living in an refugee camp in Kerpen. He was arrested on the last weekend along with a fellow countryman who was accused of theft.[18] By 21 January, there were 30 suspects for the Cologne incidents, 25 of whom were of Moroccan or Algerian origin. Fifteen of the 30 were asylum seekers, two underage unaccompanied refugees. Eight people were in investigative custody.[39][72]

On 29 January, it was reported that a further suspect, a man from Algeria, was arrested due to property offence and resistance against enforcement officers. Criminal investigations in Cologne were conducted against 44 people, North Africans by majority, ten of whom were in investigative custody as of 29 January.[117] The number of identified suspects in Cologne was 73 by 15 February, with 15 of them being in investigative custody.[4][37] A large majority of the suspects were from Algeria and Morocco. 30 Moroccans, 27 Algerians, and three Tunisians were among the suspects, along with a Libyan, an Iranian, four Iraqis, a Montenegrin, three Syrians, and three Germans.[4] By 17 March, the number of suspects had again risen to 120, 14 of whom were in investigative custody.[5] By 6 April, the number of suspects in Cologne was 153, 149 of whom were non-Germans; 103 of the 153 suspects were from Morocco or Algeria. Sixty-eight persons were asylum seekers; 18 were residing in Germany illegally, and the legal status of 47 persons was unclear. Four persons were underage, unaccompanied refugees.[7]

On 24 February, a first suspect, a 23-year-old Moroccan was sentenced to a penalty of six months on probation for stealing a cellphone from a woman as she was taking a picture of the Cologne Cathedral on New Year's Eve and also for carrying a small amount of drugs. Criminal proceedings were also taking place against two other men from Tunisia and Algeria.[118]

Another suspect in Cologne, identified only as Mehdi E.-B., a 19-year-old asylum seeker from Morocco, was recognized by victims, including a female student, in a TV report of Spiegel TV. Along with seven alleged accomplices, he was accused of sexual assaulting the victims out of a group. When the police attempted to detain the men, conducting raids in Cologne, Hamm, Troisdorf, and Bornheim on 18 February, they had already fled. Mehdi E.-B. was reported to have lived under a false identity at first, according to witnesses. The janitor of the migrant's residence said he had "stolen like a raven". In one residence, 20 cellphones were found, one of which had been stolen on New Year's Eve. Mehdi E.-B. was already sentenced for stealing a cellphone together with a man identified only as Otman K. in January 2016. Otman K. was suspected of being a member of the same group of accused sexual assailants as Mehdi E.-B.[119]

On 8 March, for the first time, Cologne police published photos of wanted men who are suspected in the New Year's Eve assaults. The photos were partly taken from victims who managed to take pictures of their assailants. In total, the police evaluated 1,100 hours of video footage taken from CCTV cameras and witnesses. A police spokesman explained that the sophisticated work that it took to link the men in the footage to specific crimes was a reason behind the late publishing. The next day, two of the wanted men were put under investigative custody. A 26-year-old man was arrested in Kerpen, while a 31-year-old man from Algeria turned himself in to the police in Hamm. On March 9, police released further photos, one showing a man firing a weapon into the air; officials clarified that no one was injured by the gunshot.[120]

On 28 April, a 19-year-old Moroccan and a 24-year-old person were arrested in northern Switzerland. The Moroccan was one of the suspects in the Cologne assaults, and had applied for asylum in Switzerland.[121][122]

On 25 November, it was reported that in 369 of the 509 crime cases, which were sexually motivated, no perpetrators could be identified. The prosecutor's office could initiate 58 criminal investigations against 83 persons. Only 6 were convicted so far. The highest sentence was 1 year and 9 month due to sexual assault and robbery. 52 of the accused men had to be acquitted due to lack of unanimous identification. The investigators failed to convict more of the perpetrators because the vicinity of the station was "dark and overcrowded" and the CCTV recordings were of "miserable" quality.[2]

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Read the link?

Yeah, I'm trying to balance work with debating this, but I had a bit more time than I thought I did.

North Africans =/= the vast majority of the people who have flooded into Europe, though. So it doesn't make sense to me to conflate the overall refugee policy.

There is nuance there that doesn't mean legitimising far-right rhetoric. If some liberals ignore the nuance it is precisely what pisses off fellow liberals and causes more far-right sympathy.

At the very least bringing in the amounts of people Germany did at once makes it insanely hard to oversee anyone abusing the system, current or in the past. The government gets stretched thin trying to handle the volumes. Governments should not be putting themselves carelessly in such positions as it potentially leads to failing to protect their citizens.

This is a good point - European governments are being stretched thin because of the strain.

 

[Dalibor68]

Came to post this but I'm happy someone else did.
Not suprised the Anti muslim defence force are in here trying to make it about Germanys refugee situation.

So while you're constructing your "far right media" strawman please go ahead and show me someone posting such far right media links in this thread

Yeah, I'm trying to balance work with debating this, but I had a bit more time than I thought I did.

North Africans =/= the vast majority of the people who have flooded into Europe, though. So it doesn't make sense to me to conflate the overall refugee policy.

Neither are Syrians.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yeah, I'm trying to balance work with debating this, but I had a bit more time than I thought I did.

North Africans =/= the vast majority of the people who have flooded into Europe, though. So it doesn't make sense to me to conflate the overall refugee policy.

You're still missing the objectivity or the link to things like this happening because the policies of Germany leave the country unable to be monitored in a safe way. As I said above bringing in so many people at once spreads the government services and functions so thin. Hence people take advantage of the system and/or actual refugees get let in who otherwise would have failed screening for having/believing/doing terrible beliefs and actions.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

So while you're constructing your "far right media" strawman please go ahead and show me someone posting such far right media links in this thread.

Well reading your quote gave me that picture.
"Stop playing dumb. You don't just travel on foot from Tunisia to germany, he used the refugee stream and uncontrolled immigration/border crossing to get into the country where he then applied and fooled the authorities."

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Neither are Syrians.

Hey, I get to use this again:

You're still missing the objectivity or the link to things like this happening because the policies of Germany leave the country unable to be monitored in a safe way. As I said above bringing in so many people at once spreads the government services and functions so thin. Hence people take advantage of the system and/or actual refugees get let in who otherwise would have failed screening for having/believing/doing terrible beliefs and actions.

OK, so what does the fact that this crisis has stretched resources thinly have to do with the overall refugee policy?

 

[Dalibor68]

Well reading your quote gave me that picture.
"Stop playing dumb. You don't just travel on foot from Tunisia to germany, he used the refugee stream and uncontrolled immigration/border crossing to get into the country where he then applied and fooled the authorities."

I asked you to show someone posting links in this thread to this far-right-media you are talking about/agreeing with the other poster about.

Hey, I get to use this again:

Maybe inform yourself about your own stuff before throwing out things without evidence and then asking people for evidence when they tell you you're wrong instead.

The biggest group in Austria last year and this year were Afghans.
http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Asylwesen/statistik/files/Asylstatistik_Dezember_2015.pdf
http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Asylwesen/statistik/files/2016/Asylstatistik_November_2016.pdf

Pages 6 each

In germany it does seem to be a majority of syrians but not what I would call a "vast majority" of 1/3. At least it certainly doesn't correspond with the "but think of the syrian refugee children" image painted by a lot of media months ago.

 

[Bollocks]

You are aware that refugees do not get asylum, right? Or do you just throw some words around without knowing their definition?

I was talking about the migrant crisis of last year, the fact that he showed up right at the height of it and wasn't subsequently deported warrants discussion.
Heck, they even ran surveillance on him because he had ties to ISIS sleeper cells in Germany yet they did not detain him and now he slipped through the cracks.
That is a failure on epic proportions.

 

[Audioboxer]

Hey, I get to use this again:

OK, so what does the fact that this crisis has stretched resources thinly have to do with the overall refugee policy?

Really? You said the answer in your statement. The country could not handle the numbers they allowed in at once via their refugee policy. A country should have a responsibility to first look after its citizens to an acceptable standard before trying to make-up for the lack of care and effort by other countries. This is not a numbers game where Germany will get a gold star for boasting about taking in the most people. It's a balancing act of humanitarian aid, security and making sure your country can cope with its projected commitment.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

A country should have a responsibility to first look after its citizens to an acceptable standard before trying to make-up for the lack of care and effort by other countries.

You are justifying nationalism here. Is this your intent?

You are also not considering that this is a European problem. Refugees do not go away. They clog up at your borders. They're in your country, they need to be handled, right?

 

[mnz]

Nope. You're granted the right of residence, not asylum.
You can basically say that Refugees are getting treated by the Geneva Convention while asylum seekers are treated by the article 16a of the german consitution.

Both groups have different rights, obligations and especially different requirements.

You're right in that there are distinctions, but refugees still fill out the asylum application when they arrive. From then on there are different statuses that are granted. I pulled the latest statistic (also because someone said Syrians aren't the biggest group - they are, atleast in Germany):

 

[Reckheim]

Well reading your quote gave me that picture.
"Stop playing dumb. You don't just travel on foot from Tunisia to germany, he used the refugee stream and uncontrolled immigration/border crossing to get into the country where he then applied and fooled the authorities."

I have absolutely no idea how that is a far right sentiment. That just sounds like someone that wants to have the borders better guarded.