Regginator
Member
I really don't want to put on my tinfoil hat over the backs of 12 deceased human beings, but why the fuck do we conveniently keep finding their IDs at the scene of the crime?
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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy
- Thread starter Ensirius
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Audioboxer
Member
Because they want to be all over the newspapers and media, and to get the attention of ISIS and sympathizers worldwide. It "immortalizes" them as a hero to their cause. It's been done once now, and copycat killers usually try to keep the chain going. It shows sick and twisted solidarity that they are doing the same as who has came before them.
It is probably also done because the end game ends up being them being shot dead, blown to bits or mangled. An ID is quick identification to let the world know right after the attack. If they are not legally registered it can take a while to identify a body you don't have on your database. How would they know where the body has came from? An unnamed killer in martyrdom defeats part of the purpose of martyrdom.
Hence why I proposed earlier maybe this guy fled after the hero truck driver tried to fight back and it cut his carnage short. I *doubt* he thought he was getting out alive, which is why he is so dangerous right now. Either for another attack or to embolden others that they can do the same and get away. Germany pretty much needs to get him, or a neighbouring country does.
That kind of stuff always amazes me. The least you can do is detain him.
Audioboxer
Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38399561
BBC covering some of the stuff posted earlier, but in English.
Sqrt_minus_one
Member
To be fair you cant hold a person for ever without charging them with something or in this case deporting him to somewhere - i wonder what the solution is in cases like this. Can you deport someone to a country which does not recognise him/her? what if the person in question simply refuses to cooperate or produce any papers or tell you his originating country?
Hypnotoad
Member
Just a few cases from the last months' where perpatrators should have been deported ages ago / not let into Germany/Austria at all:
http://www.thelocal.at/20160506/police-hold-crisis-talks-on-after-brutal-murder-in-vienna
The murder of 54-year-old Maria E. with an iron bar as she was walking along Vienna's Brunnenmarkt on her way to work as a cleaning lady 2.30am Wednesday morning has shocked residents of the multicultural and popular neighbourhood.
The motivation behind the attack is still unknown, although the key suspect - a 21-year-old Kenyan who has been living illegally in Austria for seven years and did not know the victim - was quickly arrested nearby after the incident.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ker-refugee-jailed-greece-corfu-a7477371.html
"An Afghan asylum seeker arrested on suspicion of raping and murdering a student in Germany had previously tried to kill another woman in Greece, but reportedly slipped through security checks after being freed from prison."
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutsch...a-Familien-tauchen-vor-Abschiebung-unter.html
Short summary: Two Roma families escaped the authorities before their scheduled deportation. They have lived in Germany illegally for 17 years after being denied asylum. The parents are unable to communicate in German, both fathers have a criminal record and served prison sentences in the past.
http://www.thelocal.at/20160506/police-hold-crisis-talks-on-after-brutal-murder-in-vienna
The murder of 54-year-old Maria E. with an iron bar as she was walking along Vienna's Brunnenmarkt on her way to work as a cleaning lady 2.30am Wednesday morning has shocked residents of the multicultural and popular neighbourhood.
The motivation behind the attack is still unknown, although the key suspect - a 21-year-old Kenyan who has been living illegally in Austria for seven years and did not know the victim - was quickly arrested nearby after the incident.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ker-refugee-jailed-greece-corfu-a7477371.html
"An Afghan asylum seeker arrested on suspicion of raping and murdering a student in Germany had previously tried to kill another woman in Greece, but reportedly slipped through security checks after being freed from prison."
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutsch...a-Familien-tauchen-vor-Abschiebung-unter.html
Short summary: Two Roma families escaped the authorities before their scheduled deportation. They have lived in Germany illegally for 17 years after being denied asylum. The parents are unable to communicate in German, both fathers have a criminal record and served prison sentences in the past.
ClosingADoor
Member
You can hold them while the two countries work it out I think. Since the papers did come in the end, why couldn't he be under house arrest in an asylum center for that period?
If the person refuses to cooperate, then the receiving country also has no obligation to set him free in their country.
I don't think these people should be in a prison cell - unless there is reason too, like a criminal pattern in the case of this specific guy -, but restricted to the area of the asylum center or an ankle monitor don't seem bad to me until they can be sent back.
Rest in Peace to the victims.
Can't see Merkel getting reelected with situations like this. And maybe rightfully so, call me heartless but I approve of the hard-ass vetting of Canada and the US when it comes to accepting migrants. I understand that Europe has the unfortunate fact of exiting on the same landmass as the middle-east, but Merkel's open borders policy was nonsense.
Of course this guy is from Tunisia it appears, but the letting in of so many migrants has feeded into the right-wing rhetoric and has turned otherwise moderate and rational people into reactionaries. Like it or not, their votes will be needed to keep people like Le Pen away from power.
Can't see Merkel getting reelected with situations like this. And maybe rightfully so, call me heartless but I approve of the hard-ass vetting of Canada and the US when it comes to accepting migrants. I understand that Europe has the unfortunate fact of exiting on the same landmass as the middle-east, but Merkel's open borders policy was nonsense.
Of course this guy is from Tunisia it appears, but the letting in of so many migrants has feeded into the right-wing rhetoric and has turned otherwise moderate and rational people into reactionaries. Like it or not, their votes will be needed to keep people like Le Pen away from power.
According to this
Http://diepresse.com/home/politik/a...nem-Verdaechtigen?_vl_backlink=/home/index.do
His family has lost contact to the pakistani they suspected first as he seems to have disappeared or gone underground and nothing from police yet
Http://diepresse.com/home/politik/a...nem-Verdaechtigen?_vl_backlink=/home/index.do
His family has lost contact to the pakistani they suspected first as he seems to have disappeared or gone underground and nothing from police yet
Then you don't have a clue about german politics.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Gosh, where have I heard that before.
Oh right. Exactly what people were saying before brexit and trump about the respective elections. Hmm.
If you see no difference between Brexit, US elections and Germany's political set-up, then you don't have a clue about politics in general
Miles Quaritch
Member
You think a country that routinely reminds itself about what happens when you going hard right is going to ho hard right?
This isn't the US where they ignore their history of violence and genocide.
I mean, I've already seen that repeated ad nauseam, but okay, once more:
Brexit and Trump winning were well within the margin of error of all predictions. I mean, predicitons were even correct about Clinton winning the popular vote.
For Merkel not to stay chancellor, you would need the AfD to gain 40 percentage points until the next vote. Not 2-5 as in the cases you mentioned, but 40. Those cases aren't comparable at all.
Important detail.
The overall awareness of the holocaust in Germany compared to the Trail of Tears or interment camps in the US is ridiculous, even if you factor in the magnitude of the events.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
So what do you expect? As long as AfD (or other nazi parties) do not get 50% of the votes, Merkel gets re-elected. The only alternative to that is that we get a socialst - social democratic - green government, but this is actually getting even more unlikely if the AfD gets stronger.
But since you seem to be unaware of the German politics: In the US, Trump was running against Clinton, a republican against a democrat. In Germany, the closest approximation of republicans are the CDU/CSU (Merkel's party) and the closest approximation of the democrats are the SPD (the social democrats). So Trump winning is not the extraordinary thing. If the green or the liberal candidate or an independent KKK guy had won, this would be the equivalent of Merkel not winning the next election (and not the SPD candidate either).
I can also see the opportunity for the CDU/Merkel to capitalise on this if they can (correctly) separate this from the Syrian refugee crisis. Since the CDU has advocated for years for stricter migration laws and leaner deportation laws but have been blocked by the left/centre left. Just recently the interior ministry wanted to deport a higher number of Afghans, which was met with harsh criticism from the left. Also the interior minister wanted to declare Northern African States as safe origin states which is till today blocked by SPD governed federal states.
Audioboxer
Member
Full translation or is that all of it? Dear goodness I hope he's just wanting to go quiet due to stress or something, and it's not anything worse.
SolidusDave
Member
The main difference are numbers. Democrats and Republicans are basically a 50/50 split in every election and Brexit was also relatively close from the start.
AFD jumping from 10-15% to over 50% (because if worse comes to worst,all the other parties will band together to block AFD) is a very different kind of beast.
Regginator
Member
I understand leaving your ID so the police will know it was you when you're shot dead or blown to bits, or in another state that makes recognition tricky, but what I don't understand is leaving your ID behind only to flee and making it much easier for you to get caught.
But then again, I suppose I'm just a normal guy incapable of thinking what they're thinking.
Audioboxer
Member
It might line up with the belief that the truck driver fought back. As I said most of these terrorists think once they start the carnage it ends with them being shot. Either in the truck or nearby. If the driver fought back and went for the steering wheel and caused panic to get the guy fleeing it might mean original plans were messed with.
As much as this guy is a inhumane piece of shit he still has a human mind and surprise and/or a plan like this being changed in the moment can lead to an escalation of fleeing and/or abandoning the plan.
Hence the ID put in place before the carnage starts as there is a real belief he is going to be killed. Once he starts running though it then becomes about staying alive. Either to attack again or to regroup somewhere. Don't underestimate the minds will for survival even if 5 minutes before it was prepared for death/martyrdom.
Plus yeah you might be projecting a bit into yourself and thinking I can't make sense of this. I don't mean that in a negative way, it's mind boggling to try and understand these horrible evil people, but you have to step outside the realms of sanity to try and figure out why they do what they do.
ClosingADoor
Member
Maybe he changed his mind at the last moment about killing himself. Or he really lost it, I imagine a lot of stuff gets thrown around when you crash a truck.
Brexit was always close. Trump is a republican, and the race between republicans and democrats is always relatively close.
Neither of those apply to Germany. Even if they somehow had a huge jump in a couple of months (which they won't), the other parties would just band together.
Anybody that is familiar with German politics knows they have no chance.
Then don't.
I have to say, I'm really, really impressed with the reaction of the people living in Berlin to this. Because there is none. Seriously, no one cares. While other cities close down or hold huge rallies in protest, life just goes on exactly as it did before in Berlin. On Tuesday the Christmas markets stayed closed but not because of security concerns, but out of respect for the deceased. They were already open again on Wednesday. Right-wing AFD and NPD tried to stage protests against immigration and only a few dozen people came, I think up to 200 at some point?
I was at Alexanderplatz and Central Station on Tuesday morning, the morning after the attack, and everything was like always. No swarms of police officers patroling the streets with automatic rifles, just as many people running around as always. There already have been several articles about this in german media but I'm not sure if it comes across internationally.
I think this is exactly how it should be. Mourn the dead but do not change your way of life. Berlin is one of the most diverse cities in the world and has been rebuilt out of rubble because of a hateful monster. It really feels like people are absolutely aware of that and just are not impressed by some cunt trying to destroy this with such a senseles attack. This guy, Rayk Anders, put it into words way better than I can but sadly there aren't english subtitles as far as I know.
Exactly matches my experience. Everybody is basically like: fuck that little shit, we've seen much worse. I am gonna go shopping now.
lemmykoopa
Junior Member
I can assure you that the twelve families of the victims don't think that way.
I think the poster knows that, and his point still stands, people should just carry on as normal after these attacks.
Are you a family member? Of course it is a tragedy. But nobody wants to extent the pain by faining some direct affection. Nothing is won for the grieving families if the world around them falls apart.
lemmykoopa
Junior Member
I know, but the picture of an indifferent Berlin that you're drawing right now kinda irks me the wrong way. The attack itself was fucked up but the way how it was allowed to happen is equally fucked up. This should keep people busy and not just shrugging their shoulders.
He also didn't return to his refugee home. Hope nothing happened
It shouldn't irk you. Berlin is level headed. There is no lack of sympathy for the victims nor reluctance to address the causes. The thing is people will not fall for terror tactics and loose their heads.
People not letting their personal lives be affected by terrorists doesn't mean they feel indifferent towards the victims of this tragedy. That's why the Christmas markets in Berlin got closed for a day after the incident. Out of respect for the dead.
ClosingADoor
Member
They found his prints inside the truck also now, so positive he was the terrorist.
DieNgamers
Member
There's no roadblocks or increased police presence at the christmas market in my town (Rostock). I don't think my hometown is big enough to be a target for any terror attack, though. *fingers crossed*
Audioboxer
Member
Dashcam video of the moment the truck drove into the market: http://www.bild.de/news/inland/terrorberlin/der-moment-des-anschlags-49455400.bild.html
ClosingADoor
Member
The guy was on a terrorist watch list and followed from March until September. Now get this. During that time he:
- Tried to find people to carry out a terrorist attack, according to an intelligence report in the hands of newspaper Bayerische Rundfunk.
- Tried to get automatic guns from French Islamic extremists.
- Offered himself to carry out a suicide attack, but this was worded too vaguely to arrest him apparently.
- Was associated with drug trafficking in Berlin.
But they stopped watching him in September, because there was no reason (wtf!) anymore to continue the surveillance.
He was set to be deported two times from Germany, but they couldn't. So he got temporary identification papers that people get when they need to be deported, but can't - and these are the papers they found in the truck. There are 200.000 of such cases in Germany at the moment.
If people like this can't even be locked up or at least restricted to an asylum center for the duration of their stay, you can see how there are a few worries going around whether Germany is up to the task of handling all the people they welcomed over the past years.
- Tried to find people to carry out a terrorist attack, according to an intelligence report in the hands of newspaper Bayerische Rundfunk.
- Tried to get automatic guns from French Islamic extremists.
- Offered himself to carry out a suicide attack, but this was worded too vaguely to arrest him apparently.
- Was associated with drug trafficking in Berlin.
But they stopped watching him in September, because there was no reason (wtf!) anymore to continue the surveillance.
He was set to be deported two times from Germany, but they couldn't. So he got temporary identification papers that people get when they need to be deported, but can't - and these are the papers they found in the truck. There are 200.000 of such cases in Germany at the moment.
If people like this can't even be locked up or at least restricted to an asylum center for the duration of their stay, you can see how there are a few worries going around whether Germany is up to the task of handling all the people they welcomed over the past years.
Forsete
Member
There you go. Europe, and its laws are not designed to handle the amount of people that need to be deported and detained. Hopefully, things will change very fast (though, the realist in me says they wont) and the people that should be deported should be so swiftly.
Audioboxer
Member
And some still act like there is zero discussion to be had at all and you are deplorable for even suggesting it or some right wing breitbart sympathiser.
The more that unfolds around this tragedy the worse the mishandling of this terrorist is. People are still grieving and need some damn time but the German government and the EU does have some answering to do.
Not to mention the killer is still on the loose.
DieNgamers
Member
That speed
Fucker has been recorded in a different part of the city after the attack, too. Just came in the news.
Got a none Bild source for that?
Audioboxer
Member
It's not really a pleasant watch anyway. Nothing too graphic but unsettling, sad and pretty depressing.
Not that I'm saying it could be pleasant. More it's not worth watching. It doesn't help or show anything in anyway to further an investigation. Just a clip of when the truck was used to attack.
I saw some police buses in front of the shopping mall (KTC) yesterday. They also increased the number of civil policemen,which I think is a good precaution. (Don't ask me how I know this.)
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/812228079900884992
Italian interior minister holding press conference in 15 minutes
Well that's an interesting turn of events
(also does anyone know why Audioboxer was banned?)
Kudos to law enforcement for putting an end to this horror.
Shame I really would love to see this son of a bitch rotte in jail
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I was going to say this is a good ending, but this is probably exactly how he wanted to go out.
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