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[DoktorEvil]

Jennifer resisted, but Daniel had grown weary of their secret romance. She was 24 and still sneaking around, terrified of her parents’ tirades but not willing to leave home. He told her to figure out her life, and he broke off their relationship. Jennifer was heartbroken. Shortly thereafter, she learned that Daniel was seeing a girl named Christine. In an attempt to win back his attention and discredit Christine, she concocted a bizarre tale. She told him a man had knocked on her door and flashed what looked like a police badge. When she opened the door, a group of men rushed in, overpowered her and gang-raped her in the foyer of her house. Then a few days later, she said, she received a bullet in an envelope in her mailbox. Both instances, she alleged, were warnings from Christine to leave Daniel alone.

what the fuck????? She thought of this shit as a person in control of her mental facilities?

Man, while I was expected to be a B-A student, I never had that kind of inane pressure to achieve thrust upon me.

 

[Marty Chinn]

"Hard for Asian kids to do..." come on. Once again, people should read the article before making blanket statements like that - this woman was 24 years old,

This is irrelevant. I know people in their mid to late 30s who have trouble confronting and deal with their parents because they were brought up in such an environment.

and she didn't just have others do it, she was right there.

Her being present doesn't doesn't change the fact that other people did the act.

She went through all the logistics and failed steps the article outlines to murder her parents, she faced the emotional weight of anticipating all that and being present when they were bound and shot in their own home. And she planned it out so she could sell off the estate and live free with her boyfriend.

That's hard to do. This woman was the lead conspirator in a multiple (attempted) murder, full stop.

Again all of that is not dealing directly with her parents. I'm not excusing her trying to kill her parents, but sometimes going through with that can seem easier than actually directly confronting them. She has a history of showing that rather than face and confront them, she'd rather go through elaborate schemes to avoid doing so. That's also right there in the article.

 

[Nivash]

Tiger parenting is a problem and certainly they helped create some of what their daughter became, but she could have walked out at any time. She had the wherewithal to organize a complex assassination with multiple participants - she could have left home at any time.

The dynamic is similar as with people in abusive relationships. Why aren't they walking away? Because that's not an option to them. A toxic mix of guilt, dependence and extreme self-esteem issues makes it impossible for them. When the relationship is with their parents it's even worse - if your parents are actively countering your independent growth you might not even know the concept well enough to survive on your own.

The article mentioned that her parents had controlled almost every aspect of her life from when she was a toddler to way up in her early twenties. She probably never learned how to plan even simple things on her own, let alone surviving on her own. She probably had few friends. The only independent relationship that's mentioned in the article is with the boyfriend - and boy, I'm betting he probably wasn't particularly well adjusted either considering how happily he joined in on the murder plot.

 

[DoktorEvil]

This is irrelevant. I know people in their mid to late 30s who have trouble confronting and deal with their parents because they were brought up in such an environment.

Her being present doesn't doesn't change the fact that other people did the act.

Again all of that is not dealing directly with her parents. I'm not excusing her trying to kill her parents, but sometimes going through with that can seem easier than actually directly confronting them. She has a history of showing that rather than face and confront them, she'd rather go through elaborate schemes to avoid doing so. That's also right there in the article.

I wondered why her lawyer hadn't argued for an insanity defense. The elaborate schemes thing doesn't seem like something a person of sound mind and body would do, but I'm not a shrink. I wouldn't know what would qualify for being mentally handicapped in this day and age.

 

[Nivash]

I wondered why her lawyer hadn't argued for an insanity defense. The elaborate schemes thing doesn't seem like something a person of sound mind and body would do, but I'm not a shrink. I wouldn't know what would qualify for being mentally handicapped in this day and age.

She wouldn't qualify. In order to be legally insane you typically have to be either psychotic or be afflicted by something making it impossible for you to realise that what you have done is immoral and illegal. Mental handicap usually implies and IQ under 70 or other severe developmental disorders.

I'm not sure what the exact requirements are in Canadian law but they are fairly uniform around these concepts in the western world. I think it's fairly clear that she was intelligent enough to not be mentally handicapped and the fact that she initially tried to to disguise her plot as some kind of suicide-by-hitman gone wrong shows she knew it was both immoral and illegal.

 

[DoktorEvil]

She wouldn't qualify. In order to be legally insane you typically have to be either psychotic or be afflicted by something making it impossible for you to realise that what you have done is immoral and illegal. Mental handicap usually implies and IQ under 70 or other severe developmental disorders.

I'm not sure what the exact requirements are in Canadian law but they are fairly uniform around these concepts in the western world. I think it's fairly clear that you was intelligent enough to not be mentally handicapped and the fact that she initially tried to to disguise her plot as some kind of suicide-by-hitman gone wrong shows she knew it was both immoral and illegal.

Ah ok. Understood.

I don't know the exact details of her upbringing(considering the article is from an outsider's perspective) but it doesn't sound like she led an extremely difficult life and her compulsive lying made her life much more difficult than it needed to be. Her parents certainly didn't help the situation.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Ah ok. Understood.

I don't know the exact details of her upbringing(considering the article is from an outsider's perspective) but it doesn't sound like she led an extremely difficult life and her compulsive lying made her life much more difficult than it needed to be. Her parents certainly didn't help the situation.

It depends how you define difficult. If you mean was her family struggling for food, poverty, etc, then no she didn't have a difficult life. If you mean severe pressure, mental abuse and emotional abuse, then she likely did have a difficult life.

 

[PSYGN]

Her parents were over-controlling and she was probably highly stressed from failing school, keeping secrets and telling lies about it because she didn't want to feel ashamed by her family or friends. Daniel was probably the only thing going for her and I wouldn't be surprised if it was her first love considering the seemingly sheltered life of hers. And then her parents tried to put a stop on that as well. Love and jealousy blinds some more than others, and unfortunately she was obviously not in the right state of mind to handle all these emotions that had bottled up inside of her. Not excusing her for what she did but her father seemed excessively invasive on her given her current age and no doubt is one reason of many that she planned what she did.

 

[IISANDERII]

Yeah she was very obviously oppressed to a severe degree. And it may have crippled her independence so the two issues head on resulted in a sort of coup d'etat.

 

[Stet]

you don't organize a hitman after snapping

what am i reading in this thread




is this how project managers murder people in a crime of passion i don't understand

 

[kiryogi]

Definitely had some Tiger Parenting in the family, although not as extreme. I don't resent them at all, as since they were refugees from the Vietnam War, but regardless of the turmoil in my childhood, it all worked out, and I love my parents, even though I didn't meet their expectations. I know that they just meant well and did it wanting us to have a better life than they did.

 

[GungHo]

Why is the "real world" just doctors and lawyers?

Because professions that require certifications are viewed as more valuable by virtue of requiring certification. CPAs also get some of this halo (electricians do not, but certain engineers do). This isn't simply an East Asian focus, either. South Asians, South West Asians, and Africans also value the certified professions highly. The Tiger thing may make for a understood metaphor, but I've seen Elephant Dads after Indian kids and Pigmy Hippo Aunties after Nigerian kids, swearing to abandon them if they don't get a certified job. They are folks from developing countries with an idea of what it takes to be viewed as successful in developed society, and they want their kids to achieve that at all costs. I think associating it with only East Asians puts an unnecessary aspersion on that culture by making it look like this is some sort of unique problem with their culture, when this simply isn't the case.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

I wonder how her dad feels, like... wow.

 

[kiryogi]

I wonder how her dad feels, like... wow.

Think he still cares for her and considers her his daughter considering his statement

“I hope my daughter Jennifer thinks about what has happened to her family and can become a good honest person someday.”

 

[Takuan]

I sympathize with everyone involved. I read the article over the weekend and couldn't help but wonder what the outcome would have been if Pan wasn't made to dread disappointing her father, and was taught how to deal with failure.

I came from a similar household and I'm sure much of Asian-GAF have already chimed in that they can relate to the pressure Pan undoubtedly experienced; the majority deal with it, but it's not at all surprising that a very small minority crack under this pressure and lash out in various ways.

Pan and her conspirators all deserve the punishments they received. It's just a tragedy on all fronts that this occurred at all.

I wonder how her dad feels, like... wow.

If I were her father, I'd have joined her mother by now. I can't even begin to comprehend the emotional toll on him and her brother.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Think he still cares for her and considers her his daughter considering his statement

“I hope my daughter Jennifer thinks about what has happened to her family and can become a good honest person someday.”

That's pretty powerful, hopefully he really feels that way.


Edit: I read the rest of his statement, holy crap that's sad as hell.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I'm not sure what her parents did is abuse, but really, if by 18 you ever think about killing your parents, move out instead.

 

[marimorimo]

I had a Tiger-Mom who dished out corporal punishment if I scored less than 70% on any test. I was brute-forced to learn to write all letters of the alphabet by 3 years old. Thankfully she got a bit less controlling by the 3rd grade or I may have gone totally bonkers. I still remained grades-focused and remember thinking during 4th grade that death would have been preferable to being pulled out of the high achievers' class.

As I got older I still got a stern scolding when my grades dipped into B- territory but thankfully my mom is actually a believer of letting me figure out things for myself. She let me go away for college where I promptly became a super lazy student. Fortunately for me, during high school I had perfected cramming techniques to earn decent grades at the barest minimum of effort. Haha.

I have to admit my upbringing made me acutely aware of competition at a very young age. My parents always sang praises about some achievement or other that a relative or family friend's child did, and thought they did not outright tell me that I should be like them, the pressure weighed on my shoulders. I remember feeling extremely satisfied about getting into a top university not because it was some personal dream, but because that gave my parents something to be proud about that can boasted to their friends.

 

[Walpurgis]

Why are people defending her in this thread? What she went through may seem crazy for readers who haven't experienced anything like it, but most of it is pretty common. What she did, however, is not. I had "tiger" parents that pressured me to do well in school and signed me up for extracurricular activities and stuff. Now, I'm 20 years old and I have never gone to a club, been drunk, visited a friend’s cottage or gone on vacation without my family. I have only entered a friend's home once and have never had friends come over to mine. I've never gone to a dance or had a girlfriend or anything of the sort. I'm not about to hire hitmen to kill shoot my parents in the head. That's ridiculous.

I have to admit my upbringing made me acutely aware of competition at a very young age. My parents always sang praises about some achievement or other that a relative or family friend's child did, and thought they did not outright tell me that I should be like them, the pressure weighed on my shoulders. I remember feeling extremely satisfied about getting into a top university not because it was some personal dream, but because that gave my parents something to be proud about that can boasted to their friends.

I can relate to this. My parents did the same thing and I am also happy to give my parents something to boast about.

 

[zephervack]

Excuse me for focusing only on one small detail, but how the hell did she lie about her grades for that long, I tried doing that and the first time my parents actually talked to a professor or principal they found I was lying about it, usually within 3 months of the lie.

What kind of parent never talks to schools officials about their children's education/grades.

Doesnt matter honestly, this story is horrific and I feel bad for everyone involved.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I had a 3.9 GPA in college, went to med school, and realized that it meant nothing. Most of my peers in med school were sub 3.5 GPA, barely scraped by through college, but all score consistently better and perform better than I or any of my other fellow 4.0ers on evals in the clinic and in residency. A lot of that has to do with them actually "understanding" the information before and never making that same mistake again. They integrate concepts and take the time to actually LEARN instead of reading/memorizing every word in a textbook. They may have had a 3.5 GPA then, but in the grand scheme of things, because they sacrificed their grades for better understanding of the material, they ended up "on top." That compounded with strong social communication/interaction skills made them excel far more than all of us who just studied 16 hours a day in a dimly lit room.

Not to completely disagree with you, you have a point. I wouldn't have been accepted into my program if I didn't have the scores, but there's a "baseline" that just needs to be reached and any extra effort after that? Honestly don't see the value in it. Time and time again, I have yet to see a real life example of someone who excels so well academically, sacrificing literally everything for the sake of a letter grade, ever being TRULY successful career wise (wealth, fame, happiness, lifestyle, etc)

Sorry for ignoring this. I forgot I even posted in this thread until now. I mean, I generally agree with you, but I just want to point something out:

but all score consistently better and perform better than I or any of my other fellow 4.0ers on evals in the clinic and in residency. A lot of that has to do with them actually "understanding" the information before and never making that same mistake again. They integrate concepts and take the time to actually LEARN instead of reading/memorizing every word in a textbook.

In this example, scores are still being used to assess competency. I completely agree with you that what education is about should be to absorb, understand, and utilize knowledge and materials, but the only way to measure how well someone actually does this is through scoring. I know you also mention "perform better," but how is "better" defined if not also by some metric (such as the ratio of patients saved against patients who died or whatever else med school uses). In the end, your clinic and residency performance is still boiled down to some units of measure, is it not?

It's the same in any industry, really. In my job, as much as I try to avoid using only quantitative analysis to review the performance of my testers, in the end, I still have to categorize their evaluation criteria in some way, which is really the same as grading, even if it doesn't use the A, B, C, D, F school grading system. And those who end up performing well are the ones who can consistently fulfill the criteria I give them, which means they "score" well on their performance evaluations.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Excuse me for focusing only on one small detail, but how the hell did she lie about her grades for that long, I tried doing that and the first time my parents actually talked to a professor or principal they found I was lying about it, usually within 3 months of the lie.

What kind of parent never talks to schools officials about their children's education/grades.

Doesnt matter honestly, this story is horrific and I feel bad for everyone involved.

Parents don't usually talk to the schools past elementary school.

 

[boiled goose]

She was insane.

JUST leave home if you hate your parents. They have no legAl power over you.

 

[WalkMan]

LET

YOUR

CHILD

LIVE.

They are not fucking robots. Sad situation.

Typical victim blaming. Yea the murdered definitely deserved this

 

[OriginofHysteria]

She was insane.

JUST leave home if you hate your parents. They have no legAl power over you.

I'd imagine she didn't really have the money to move out.

Also I know all about this. When I was younger I was subject to what is known as tiger parenting. It has reached the point where I have trouble opening up to my parents. In fact a lot of emotions I bottled up inside up until as recent as a few years ago when I was dating my ex. Luckily at the same time I had a great group of friends that i was around that made me feel like it was all an escape. It wasn't until recently my dad admitted that he wasn't exactly the best and is trying now to make it up to me. He is at least one parent I can open up to now. My mom on the other hand not so much. When I got laid off my job a month ago I didn't tell her because I was afraid of what was going to be said to me after that and it was something I couldn't deal with. Instead for two weeks I acted like I went to work but really hung out at my girlfriend's job.

Then I found a new job and thats when I brought up the whole being laid off thing. It wasn't a bad conversation at all but I think all the things that were said and done to me in the past have definitely had an impact on me and how I react to situations.

Despite all that, I would never think about killing anyone let alone hiring someone to do that to my own parents. That takes a certain level of fucked up to have someone kill and hurt your parents.

 

[levious]

Parents don't usually talk to the schools past elementary school.

While not relevant to her given her age, I've gotten my children's grades electronically (including almost weekly progress reports) for about 6 years i think. Including through high school.

 

[dramatis]

I have to admit my upbringing made me acutely aware of competition at a very young age. My parents always sang praises about some achievement or other that a relative or family friend's child did, and thought they did not outright tell me that I should be like them, the pressure weighed on my shoulders. I remember feeling extremely satisfied about getting into a top university not because it was some personal dream, but because that gave my parents something to be proud about that can boasted to their friends.

This part is the worst part. Parents like to boast to their friends about their children's accomplishments, but they come home and they tell their children so and so's child did this great thing and that, why can't you be like that?

It's supposed to be a motivator. But ultimately it feels like your parents won't love you if you're a failure. They'll lay claim if you're a success; they'll ignore you if you're a failure.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Excuse me for focusing only on one small detail, but how the hell did she lie about her grades for that long, I tried doing that and the first time my parents actually talked to a professor or principal they found I was lying about it, usually within 3 months of the lie.

What kind of parent never talks to schools officials about their children's education/grades.

Doesnt matter honestly, this story is horrific and I feel bad for everyone involved.

Her parents were first generation Canadians originally from Vietnam. Maybe their English wasn't adept enough and trusted their children to translate for them?

I know that before emailing parents grades became a thing, I grew up in an era where your grades were on a piece of paper that could be easily doctored and all the parents needed to do was sign off on them.