Robot Carnival
Gold Member
he had been, still is, and always will be the person I most want to punch in the face. I'll just leave it at that.
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Trump's first year as a president
- Thread starter Pomerlaw
- Start date
Again you're not making any sense at all. You just said Trump is dishonest and lies all the time so how do you know what to think of him at all? Why don't you just come out of the closet already lol.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Trump is a disaster and the GOP is rotten to the core.
Celebrating anything they have done is celebrating the decay of our institutions and America itself. We may never have truly been the shining city on a hill, but at least we could pretend we had some sort moral authority despite rampant societal bigotry, racism, and religious zealotry.
Now, the naked hypocrisy is up front and center.
Supporting a pedophile?
Supporting someone who had actively sought to take away rights from other Americans?
Supporting someone who has called his own daughter a piece of ass? Who has said he thrusts himself on unsuspecting women to kiss them and grab them by the pussy?
Someone whose policies will contribute to the destruction of the environment that we live in?
All par for the course for the so-called believers in the Man who said love everyone. Who preached taking care of the poor and sick and elderly. Whose very believers actually lived and believed in the only successful form of Communism in the history of the world.
I am a Christian, and the greed and avarice on full display by the tens of millions who continue to vote for hypocrites are simply not Christians, full stop. I detest abortion in almost all cases, especially the capricious nature in which it is typically performed,but there is no way in hell that I will ever vote for another Republican as long as their only platform and belief is "Fuck you, I've got mine"
Celebrating anything they have done is celebrating the decay of our institutions and America itself. We may never have truly been the shining city on a hill, but at least we could pretend we had some sort moral authority despite rampant societal bigotry, racism, and religious zealotry.
Now, the naked hypocrisy is up front and center.
Supporting a pedophile?
Supporting someone who had actively sought to take away rights from other Americans?
Supporting someone who has called his own daughter a piece of ass? Who has said he thrusts himself on unsuspecting women to kiss them and grab them by the pussy?
Someone whose policies will contribute to the destruction of the environment that we live in?
All par for the course for the so-called believers in the Man who said love everyone. Who preached taking care of the poor and sick and elderly. Whose very believers actually lived and believed in the only successful form of Communism in the history of the world.
I am a Christian, and the greed and avarice on full display by the tens of millions who continue to vote for hypocrites are simply not Christians, full stop. I detest abortion in almost all cases, especially the capricious nature in which it is typically performed,but there is no way in hell that I will ever vote for another Republican as long as their only platform and belief is "Fuck you, I've got mine"
pramod
Banned
What will you do if he wins a second term?
TheLaughingStock
Member
Not sure why you'd place your faith in Bernie Sanders because he lost handily to one of the worst candidates in modern history (Hillary Clinton). He can't even get out of the primary to show us what he can do in a US general election. Plus, the main reason I think that he amassed a massive following is because Clinton was an embarrassment that elevated his political career alongside outsiders like Pres. Obama and Pres. Trump. I guess in a way you could find Hillary's body of work impressive because only an obvious corporate shill/phony fighter for the least fortunate could make an unashamed socialist so popular.
Anyway as far as lies, Pres. Trump is taking the playbook of a politician to its logical conclusion. He said what he had to to get elected. Became POTUS when virtually everyone said he had no chance in his own unorthodox way. If he's a problem, then he's a symptom rather than a cause. And expecting anything more from him would be a purity test. Most people don't believe in doing what's right anymore or doing what they believe in. It's all about pretending to be "pragmatic", putting party before country and worrying about the next election for power. That's fine, but there are consequences to that attitude and compromising with people who believe things that you fundamentally do not.
PSYGN
Member
lol. I don't support Trump but bah gawd, get a load of yourself.
CampbellzSoup
Member
Amibguous Cad
Member
You can't design a system that doesn't, on some level, presume good faith on the part of the people running it. There are not enough lawyers in the world to write a comprehensive enough legal code to dictate every little action done, such that someone as malicious and shameless as Trump could do the system no harm.
I use "shameless" in a technical sense here. It's probably Trump's greatest advantage. In his real estate business, neither shame nor concern for reputation stopped him from repeatedly stiffing his contractors, knowing that the process of getting him to pay up through the legal system would often cost more than it was worth. The vast majority of people would feel shame at repeating, over and over, a lie that could be refuted easily and conclusively with two pictures, but Trump kept crowing about his inauguration crowd size. He also denies that he ever said the things that were a.) recorded on the Hollywood Access tape and B.) we have ample footage of him admitting that the person recorded on the tape was him.
This is his greatest advantage, as I said. It turns out the truth-telling organs of our polity are much less robust than it was previously believed. Even an easily refuted, transparently self-serving lie can get traction if the President says them, because many people want him to succeed, and because his saying it immediately makes it a "both sides" issue that a mainstream press more interested in neutrality than truth will treat with a velvet glove. Trump is the only politician in the history of the country to be shameless enough to test the waters and see if the consequences for lying are as bad as everyone says.
But you're not wriggling out of this as a "both sides, what are you going to do?" issue. Politicians prevaricate, they spin, they dance and weave around the truth. But no politician in the history of America - and frankly, the world - has ever told a lie so spectacularly brazen as the two listed above. Lies about things of little consequence, disproved by clear and unambiguous recorded evidence. It is true that the bar for political falsehoods was quite low, perhaps one two feet off the ground. Trump, meanwhile, chucked the bar into the Mariana trench and buried it in the soil for good measure.
The problem is that it worked, at least to an extent that Trump has felt comfortable lying over and over again. This isn't great for his current term, of course. But the damage that he has done to the presidency in doing so is severe and irreparable. If it is primarily shame that has prevented politicians from doing such things, the shame felt will be considerably lessened by knowing that a prior President has been so brazen. It gives moral cowards like yourself an excuse to toss "both sides" grenades until there is no distinguishing between severity or shades of falsehood, until there are no standards whatsoever that we may hold elected officials to without exposing ourselves as a clueless hypocrite. And it has informed future politicians that such mendacity is rewarded, that anyone may lie so brazenly without consequence.
Trump's dishonesty is not excused by claiming that he is a "symptom, rather than a cause." To carry the disease analogy forward, Trump is instead a new and particularly virulent disease that is far more deadly because it exploits flaws in the immune system other viruses do not. It is not a purity test to expect the president of the united states to not order his press secretary to insist to the world that there are three lights, when there are four. It is neither naive nor foolish to hold him accountable for those lies.
What is foolish, is to expect that politicians will be better when you refuse to hold them to even minimal standards.
Because he lost due to the coruption in the democratic party and the fact they they favored money for the party more than actual politics. Hillary also brought the biggest budget for an election ever and still lost. Bernie was persuading peole alone due to his charaismatic ways and speeches.. And I sad all the Time that Trump is a sign of the PC culture backlash. He was never any cause. Again people wanted change no matter what.
I honestly do not know how to explain it otherwise. With Trump I know exactly how he is. He is a shitbag and he does not hide it like many other people who are trying to hide their shittyness. Trump is very reactionary he does not think, he has no plan, he is just Trump.
Also what closet? You can me "accuse" of being a Trump Supporter but I am not and even if I were why should I hide it? I do not live in America. I have no stake in it. I am just writing what I thik or better what I experienced during the elections.
Adjust your overly aggressive tone please. While there is a passionate line that most political debates will approach (and we're happy to let run as you are all adults), this comment does more than stick a toe over it.
The point of a discussion forum is to use text and language to articulate your point, and where necessary introduce impassioned debate. If this is too much for you to handle without reverting to sweeping insulting generalizations then maybe these kind of threads aren't for you. Hurling an insult then running away will persuade no-one to change their stance or opinion. Are you personally affected in a negative way under his presidency? Is your community/family? Try to paint a picture so people can empathize with your point of view, and then expand on it. Thanks
shpankey
not an idiot
I get you. The devil you know kind of thing? Plus hes not competent enough to get away with anything elaborate and secret.
Super Mario
Banned
I like to look at campaign promises vs fulfillment as a key indicator. That is how you became President. Did you mean what you promised to America, or was it a bait and switch? Now, to any reasonable person, we know that all campaign promises can't all be upheld. There are compromises, and there are failures, with an expectation of progress.
Remember when we were told he would never accomplish things like bring back manufacturing jobs, improve the economy, and defeat ISIS? Those things all happened pretty quickly, and now the rhetoric is "well, Obama started the work".
When you compare the campaign promises from the two, Obama's promises are largely social. Can you quantify the results from these issues that we wanted in power so badly? As someone who voted for Obama for both of his presidencies, I can't say so with confidence. Trump's are largely fiscal, with clear progress shown. So far we've seen a stronger economy, stock market, lower unemployment, and lower illegal immigration. There's still plenty of time for results to go either way.
His Achilles heel is communication. There's a big portion of Americans honestly could care less about what the President says. To me, he can call someone a poophead on Twitter if he delivered on the issues that are meaningful to my life. The fact remains that there is a loud portion of Americans who do care. There's too much media anymore to ignore this. I believe he does impose a refreshing level of transparency that hasn't been seen in quite some time. He just needs more tact to it. Sure Huckabee Sanders is an outstanding person for her role, but media is easy to mold. I don't see him changing his communication style though.
Remember when we were told he would never accomplish things like bring back manufacturing jobs, improve the economy, and defeat ISIS? Those things all happened pretty quickly, and now the rhetoric is "well, Obama started the work".
When you compare the campaign promises from the two, Obama's promises are largely social. Can you quantify the results from these issues that we wanted in power so badly? As someone who voted for Obama for both of his presidencies, I can't say so with confidence. Trump's are largely fiscal, with clear progress shown. So far we've seen a stronger economy, stock market, lower unemployment, and lower illegal immigration. There's still plenty of time for results to go either way.
His Achilles heel is communication. There's a big portion of Americans honestly could care less about what the President says. To me, he can call someone a poophead on Twitter if he delivered on the issues that are meaningful to my life. The fact remains that there is a loud portion of Americans who do care. There's too much media anymore to ignore this. I believe he does impose a refreshing level of transparency that hasn't been seen in quite some time. He just needs more tact to it. Sure Huckabee Sanders is an outstanding person for her role, but media is easy to mold. I don't see him changing his communication style though.
Bolivar687
Banned
CampbellzSoup
Member
Ouch that burn was sick
AmericanPixel
Member
Adjust your overly aggressive tone please. While there is a passionate line that most political debates will approach (and we're happy to let run as you are all adults), this comment does more than stick a toe over it.
The point of a discussion forum is to use text and language to articulate your point, and where necessary introduce impassioned debate. If this is too much for you to handle without reverting to sweeping insulting generalizations then maybe these kind of threads aren't for you. Hurling an insult then running away will persuade no-one to change their stance or opinion. Are you personally affected in a negative way under his presidency? Is your community/family? Try to paint a picture so people can empathize with your point of view, and then expand on it. Thanks
Moderation like this is what was needed before, but no matter, we have it now. Thanks. We don't have to agree, we can be on the opposite side of the aisle but no need for petty insults.
hunchback
Member
Are you saying that those two statements are lies?
I did keep the same Dr and my plan was also left unchanged. I'm not rich and had preexisting conditions.
The worst thing Trump is doing is without a doubt his view and decisions on the environment.
His decisions may in part decide the fate of millions of americans who will be hit by floods and storms in the future. When you ignore science, people die, it's as simple as that. He doesn't seem to care because he knows he won't be here anymore. He's joking about it, but the truth is the US will be badly hit by global warming if we continue on this path.
His decisions may in part decide the fate of millions of americans who will be hit by floods and storms in the future. When you ignore science, people die, it's as simple as that. He doesn't seem to care because he knows he won't be here anymore. He's joking about it, but the truth is the US will be badly hit by global warming if we continue on this path.
...Actually, yes. Fascist governments are only concerned about their own power, for their own benefit, and all that's needed for that is force. Small government and free markets make things much easier for them.
Blood Borne
Member
Lol. This is some Orwellian bullshit.
Freedom is slavery.
War is peace.
Ignorance is strength.
Small and free markets is fascism/dictatorship.
You really and truly have no idea what you're talking about.
It's ignorant statements like this which give credence to the theory that leftists are brainwashing/lying to students in schools.
VAL0R
Banned
Modern Feminists actually do. AKA Wage gap as an example. I see this kind of ideology as dying outdated and trying to stay relevant.and this is one way to do this.
Example:
6 Feminist Myths That Will Not Die
Again this is a reason why you should never only get your information from one side or ideology.
Leftsist have become more authoritarian for sure.
TheLaughingStock
Member
The problem is not that what Pres. Trump did worked. Instead, you don't understand or perhaps don't accept why. Donald Trump lived in one of your greatest cities (New York), became very wealthy and ascended to one of the most powerful political positions in the world towards the end of his life. It couldn't have been done without your society rewarding him along the way.
In addition, I never said this is a both sides issue. The salesmanship and art of BSing forms the core of what a politician is. Most people want you to tell them what they want to hear. Accordingly, what you say may or may not coincide with the truth. The truth doesn't necessarily matter. That's why Pres. Trump gained so much traction and his skill set translated so well to politics.
Finally, no politician in history has ever lied or intentionally mislead the public like Trump? We have government officials in democratic/non-democratic societies in 2017 alone saying whatever they want to say with respect to their emails, sexual assault, human trafficking, war, extrajudicial killings, corruption, and so on.
Pres. Trump reminded everyone how frequently you can be loose with the truth when it's convenient and succeed. The moral cowardice lies with folks who pretend that people are rewarded for their principles and for doing what's right. In reality, you face retaliation and marginalization for having your heart in the right place. That's not throwing both sides grenades. If you were truly holding politicians accountable and to your standards, then Pres. Trump cannot exist. He doesn't even bother riding down the escalator. He's in office because you don't usually live up to what you say. You either look the other way or you're overruled by other people who don't care and just want to win.
Randomizer
Member
As someone who is on the far left in the classical sense, not this socially liberal, fiscal conservative bullshit that modern 'liberals', 'leftists' and democrats appear to be. I'd say he did a pretty bad job but as previously stated by others he is not Hitler or anything close. He is still a piece of shit but so is every other past US President, imo they are all war criminals. But anyway Trump is literally a fish out of water, compelety out of his depth and element in most instances.
His fiscal policies were always going to be the complete opposite of my views but I guess he did ok for what he said he would do. Deregulation, tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations, cutting government spending, repeal replace parts of ACA etc. His deregulation is very troubling. Climate change denial, extension of drilling, mining and fracking sites.
He is socially regressive, racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted and extremely ingnorant. How he speaks of muslims, middle easternerns, immigrants and Mexicans is fucking disgusting. The Wall is a massive joke and will not happen.
His foreign policy is imperialist and criminal. No surprises there though, as nothing will change unless a US president has the balls to stand up to the military industrial complex, CIA, NSA etc. With their proxy wars, arms sales, profiteering over conflict etc . The bombing of Raqqa was a war crime and as the President he is responsible. The Jerusalem decision is abhorrent and supports an illegal occupation and apartheid state. His dealings with North Korea are equal parts hilarious and horrifying lol. Nobody should let him on Twitter when he is angry at countries armed with nukes. His egregious personality and stupidity has made the US a laughing stock worldwide.
The only policies of his I even agreed with are massive infrastructure funding and less outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to poorer countries. On that front he has done pretty much nothing.
So overall for old Gaf/ResetEra he was literally worse than Hitler!! For Trump supports he did a tremendous job, huge success! For us normal non Trump supporting types he did a very shit job. Everyone else couldn't give a fuck either way.
His fiscal policies were always going to be the complete opposite of my views but I guess he did ok for what he said he would do. Deregulation, tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations, cutting government spending, repeal replace parts of ACA etc. His deregulation is very troubling. Climate change denial, extension of drilling, mining and fracking sites.
He is socially regressive, racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted and extremely ingnorant. How he speaks of muslims, middle easternerns, immigrants and Mexicans is fucking disgusting. The Wall is a massive joke and will not happen.
His foreign policy is imperialist and criminal. No surprises there though, as nothing will change unless a US president has the balls to stand up to the military industrial complex, CIA, NSA etc. With their proxy wars, arms sales, profiteering over conflict etc . The bombing of Raqqa was a war crime and as the President he is responsible. The Jerusalem decision is abhorrent and supports an illegal occupation and apartheid state. His dealings with North Korea are equal parts hilarious and horrifying lol. Nobody should let him on Twitter when he is angry at countries armed with nukes. His egregious personality and stupidity has made the US a laughing stock worldwide.
The only policies of his I even agreed with are massive infrastructure funding and less outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to poorer countries. On that front he has done pretty much nothing.
So overall for old Gaf/ResetEra he was literally worse than Hitler!! For Trump supports he did a tremendous job, huge success! For us normal non Trump supporting types he did a very shit job. Everyone else couldn't give a fuck either way.
Really? What are you smoking? Saying that corrupt governments don't care about safety nets or regulations because they don't care means I'm doing some sort of Double Think?
Christ these forums have gone down the toilet.
Jesus Christ... its the exact opposite. I...and many other people assumed he was saying completely ridiculous things in order to get elected.
There was no way he was going to waste money on a physical wall on the southern boarder. I mean eventually someone would tell him that the cost of such a stupid thing would outweigh any perceived or real benefits.
He is a an absolute fucking imbecile. Hes what stupid people thing a rich person is like.
The only way America can stop the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs is to get rid of minimum wage and bring down the country's cost of living. Because as a corporation
why the heck would set up factories in a country where I have to pay my workers $7.25 at the minimum, when I can go to a country where wages are like $2.00? I'm a business not charity, my only obligation is to bring maximum profit to shareholders.
I may not agree with a lot of the pro-Trump posts, but it's nice to see a wide open discussion without mass bannings and dog piling for being on the "wrong" side of an issue. I've always found echo chambers to be a negative thing, and I think it's good to have your ideas and thoughts challenged, even if you think the person disagreeing with you is wrong. In any case, I hope to continue to see political discussions here open to all sides of a debate.
On to the question at hand, overall my view of Trump has been pretty negative from the onset, and nothing he has done as President has done much to change that for me. I'm a moderate Republican who didn't vote for Trump in 2016 and I haven't seen any reason why I would change my mind for 2020 thus far.
In terms of his agenda, it's hard not to see this year as anything other than a failure. The tax plan is the only real success he's had. On that front, I'm happy that I will see a nice benefit from the plan, but I also am not keen on the potential for huge increases in the deficit that will occur as a result. I'm not convinced that we will see a massive increase in growth to account for those deficits. I hope I'm wrong. With that said, I also find some of the negatively around the tax plan somewhat disingeinous. Anything other than no cuts for the rich (or in more extreme cases, nothing short of tax increases for the rich) is instantly demonized for being nothing but a benefit for the rich at the expense of everybody else.
On temperment, Trump has been awful, which isn't much of a suprise if you paid attention during the campaign. The twitter nonsense and random fights Trump picks with people isn't a good look for the President. I have to imagine it doesn't paint a positive picture for us in other parts of the world. That said, none of this should come as a suprise and I imagine nothing will change as long as he's in office.
You also have to look overall cabinet appointments and overall staffing issues in his administration thus far as a big negative. People like Flynn and Scaramucci should have never been picked for their respective positions. Lots of cabinet picks like DeVos have been suspect, and it looks like good ones like Mattis are essentially in the process of being run off. Lots of chaos that I think will continue.
How does this translate to the 2018 midterms and longer term to the 2020 election? I think it's easy to predict that the Dems win in a landslide, and maybe even win control at least one branch of Congress, but that is far from a certainty. I wouldn't count out the backlash that occurs from people being told since election day that if you aren't fully 100% against Trump all the time, you are a sexist, racist, neo-Nazi, facist piece of trash. Yes, there is a very real and disturbing portion of Trump's base that likely checks all of those boxes, and Trump's lack of effort is seperating himself from these people is a big reason why I refuse to support him. I also find it asinine to paint anybody who voted for Trump or even chooses to defend him at any point in time with those same terms. There are lots of people, including plenty that aren't huge fans of the President, who I think will consider voting for him, or the GOP in 2018, as a way of speaking out against the rabid, over the top nonense, that people are spewing about anybody who isn't fully 100% against Trump all the time.
On to the question at hand, overall my view of Trump has been pretty negative from the onset, and nothing he has done as President has done much to change that for me. I'm a moderate Republican who didn't vote for Trump in 2016 and I haven't seen any reason why I would change my mind for 2020 thus far.
In terms of his agenda, it's hard not to see this year as anything other than a failure. The tax plan is the only real success he's had. On that front, I'm happy that I will see a nice benefit from the plan, but I also am not keen on the potential for huge increases in the deficit that will occur as a result. I'm not convinced that we will see a massive increase in growth to account for those deficits. I hope I'm wrong. With that said, I also find some of the negatively around the tax plan somewhat disingeinous. Anything other than no cuts for the rich (or in more extreme cases, nothing short of tax increases for the rich) is instantly demonized for being nothing but a benefit for the rich at the expense of everybody else.
On temperment, Trump has been awful, which isn't much of a suprise if you paid attention during the campaign. The twitter nonsense and random fights Trump picks with people isn't a good look for the President. I have to imagine it doesn't paint a positive picture for us in other parts of the world. That said, none of this should come as a suprise and I imagine nothing will change as long as he's in office.
You also have to look overall cabinet appointments and overall staffing issues in his administration thus far as a big negative. People like Flynn and Scaramucci should have never been picked for their respective positions. Lots of cabinet picks like DeVos have been suspect, and it looks like good ones like Mattis are essentially in the process of being run off. Lots of chaos that I think will continue.
How does this translate to the 2018 midterms and longer term to the 2020 election? I think it's easy to predict that the Dems win in a landslide, and maybe even win control at least one branch of Congress, but that is far from a certainty. I wouldn't count out the backlash that occurs from people being told since election day that if you aren't fully 100% against Trump all the time, you are a sexist, racist, neo-Nazi, facist piece of trash. Yes, there is a very real and disturbing portion of Trump's base that likely checks all of those boxes, and Trump's lack of effort is seperating himself from these people is a big reason why I refuse to support him. I also find it asinine to paint anybody who voted for Trump or even chooses to defend him at any point in time with those same terms. There are lots of people, including plenty that aren't huge fans of the President, who I think will consider voting for him, or the GOP in 2018, as a way of speaking out against the rabid, over the top nonense, that people are spewing about anybody who isn't fully 100% against Trump all the time.
shpankey
not an idiot
Fantastic post mid83! Wow, that was really insightful, well stated and pretty much nailed what and how I think too. I have a feeling a good portion of people in the real world would as well. Especially that last paragraphs points, you really, really nailed it, but everything else too.
Also, the ability to have real discussion like you said, without dog piling, etc. Sometimes I would just like to know what one side is thinking and why, and the banning/echo chamber dog piling is not only unproductive, but I always felt silenced the other side and even galvanized them and promoted the conspiracy thinking. No real change [in opinions/stances] has ever come this way.
p.s. just want to throw a name out for President that my wife and I have wanted forever. Condoleezza Rice. She deserves the honor of first female president, whereas Hillary definitely does not. Hillary and Trump were just two awful, AWFUL choices. But I think a lot of people want real change, and a wildcard like Trump definitely sent that message.
Also, the ability to have real discussion like you said, without dog piling, etc. Sometimes I would just like to know what one side is thinking and why, and the banning/echo chamber dog piling is not only unproductive, but I always felt silenced the other side and even galvanized them and promoted the conspiracy thinking. No real change [in opinions/stances] has ever come this way.
p.s. just want to throw a name out for President that my wife and I have wanted forever. Condoleezza Rice. She deserves the honor of first female president, whereas Hillary definitely does not. Hillary and Trump were just two awful, AWFUL choices. But I think a lot of people want real change, and a wildcard like Trump definitely sent that message.
Awarding corporations more money is hardly a feat of governance.
Not many presidents had a Congress who railroaded a bill through cause they know they're time to act on their agenda is closing
I appreciate it! Yeah, it's sad how most people who seem to be interested in politics are unable to tolerate any opinions or ideas that don't jive with their own. It doesn't change minds and just makes people double down on their own beliefs and ideas.
I've always been a huge fan of Condi Rice and I think she would be an amazing president. I also agree that Trump/Hillary were awful choices. So bad that I ended up voting 3rd party because I just didn't feel right voting for either one. Had Obama or Biden been the candidate, I likely would have voted for either one over Trump. I'm open to voting for a Democrat in 2020, assuming Trump is the GOP nominee again, but it all depends on who it is.
It's really interesting how anyone who makes less than 200k per year can see the trump tax plans as anything but regressive. I say that as someone who studied economics, it's just not designed to stimulate the economy and by the time the impact is felt in everyone's wallet it will be too late to resolve the issue, wealth inequality will be too much of an issue. Also as an aside when addressing wealth inequality is putting more of the tax burden on the super wealthy that big of an issue?
I am also really interested that the vast majority of people reviewing Trump's 1st year don't mention the racial animus, the offensive comments to various different groups and the sheer loss of Americas respect and global influence.
For those who think that his 1st year was good, are any of you female? From a minority? Financially not in the top 25%? Just interested to know how trumps policies have affected you and whether the financial benefits being trumpeted are worth the social costs?
Ot as someone who has most of their family in the USA and am currently based outside of USA, I see how you are viewed from a foreign perspective and it's not great, from simple things like many friends choosing not to visit, to companies who are based there moving many of the decision making processes to foreign countries, and a lot of that is to do with the immediate impact of the trump presidency.
I am also really interested that the vast majority of people reviewing Trump's 1st year don't mention the racial animus, the offensive comments to various different groups and the sheer loss of Americas respect and global influence.
For those who think that his 1st year was good, are any of you female? From a minority? Financially not in the top 25%? Just interested to know how trumps policies have affected you and whether the financial benefits being trumpeted are worth the social costs?
Ot as someone who has most of their family in the USA and am currently based outside of USA, I see how you are viewed from a foreign perspective and it's not great, from simple things like many friends choosing not to visit, to companies who are based there moving many of the decision making processes to foreign countries, and a lot of that is to do with the immediate impact of the trump presidency.
Dusk Soldier
Member
Dusk Soldier
Member
I don't think wealth inequality is as major an issue to the general american citizen as your making it out to be to be honest.
A lot of Americans and American immigrants believe fiercely in the "American Dream" and the idea that if you work hard and apply yourself you can move up social ladder in society.
Our media is inundated with wealthy celebrities who came from meagre or modest backgrounds. And a lot of middle class people can attest to having parents/grand parents who worked hard to make sure their children didn't live through the same levels of poverty that they did.
It's hard to believe that it's the governments job to lift it's people out of poverty, when we all know multiple examples of people who did it without the government's help.
As for taxing the rich more. I think the reality is no matter if someone makes $30k or $30 million annually. It's not realistic to expect them to be ok with just handing over 30% of their income.
The rich will look for ways to hide their money from the US. The higher the tax rate the more incentive they will have to do so. There's no guarantee the increase in revenue from a higher tax rate would offset the tax revenue lost from the increasing amount of rice looking to dodge taxes.
An example of the top of my head I can think of is in tennis, virtually all the French players live officially in Switzerland. Switzerland has a significantly lower tax rate than France does. This is millions of dollars of income that France can't tax because their tax rate drives wealthy people out of the country.
hey guys, don't worry, 2018 is here, we are all still alive and kicking and the world is still turning
Yes, the world didn't blow up so clearly, everything is fine.
Let me go bury my head in my pile of video games now.
You can negotiate shipping costs, can't negotiate on minimum wage.
Thank you for your reply, here are some articles that I feel have some relevance to this discussion.
Wealth inequality as an issue of economic importance:
http://neweconomics.org/2014/12/why-inequality-is-an-economic-problem/
Social Mobility is becoming more and more difficult:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/
Why Crony capitalism is a real problem, i.e. when governments don't regulate the unfettered abuse of capaitalist systems
https://www.economist.com/news/lead...hugely-rich-recent-years-crony-capitalism-may
No one wants to be taxed, or to put it another way, everyone wants to see as much value for their endevours as possible. But if you live in a democracy and like roads, police, healthcare etc then it is better (purely from economies of scale) to have everyone pool their resources and for the common good to be paid for by everyone.
You don't get to be a millionaire without relying on external resources, people, infrastructure, education healthcare etc so when you earn massive amounts more (£30mill for example) then you have benefited from the other resources in the society and should pay something towards maintaining and reimbursing those things.
The cost to you of losing $5mill of your £30mil is less than the cost of losing £5k of your £30k to an average worker, that's just simple and that's why we should strive for as progressive a tax system as possible.
But as to your last point, yes individuals will try and do anything they can within the law to hide their incomes, but that doesn't make it right. Now when you look at international sports people who travel around the world for their jobs then settling in the most tax advantageous place is a benefit, but when they accrue (prize) money in the local countries they still have to pay tax on their earnings while in France for example.
So the French government does see some taxable benefit and they should, they have probably paid for the stadiums, the training programs, the staff and the roads for the spectators to go to the event.
Basic economic history tells us that the time of the most growth in the US was following the new deal tax and social structures and that had some of the highest upper level taxes, and the studies have shown that people and companies didn't leave and the rate of production was high because the demand side market was there to ensure that.
If we move to a supply side when we are at nearly full employment then there is no incentive to make sure that production stays in the country and money given to vast corps will just go to making rich people richer. It will then allow the middle class to continue shrinking and minimise growth. Also the stock market is not a good indicator of growth, its used by less than 20% and benefits even fewer.
pramod
Banned
If GDP growth, unemployment, and the stock market are all not indicators of growth, then what is a real indicator of growth?
Sorry, the rich people are always to keep getting richer in a capitalist system, unless you want to do a Mao/Pol Pot and kill them all/take all their stuff.
Sorry, the rich people are always to keep getting richer in a capitalist system, unless you want to do a Mao/Pol Pot and kill them all/take all their stuff.
rokkerkory
Member
A foreign power intrudes in our most sacred of rights (voting) and yet we aren't taking it seriously enough. A year has passed and zero effort has been placed on securing the way we vote, hitting companies for hosting ads that spew fake news, etc.
SMH
SMH
pramod
Banned
I still don't understand why a foreign power spreading fake news through ads is illegal, while someone domestic doing it is perfectly ok and just freedom of speech.
If Americans have the freedom to spread fake news why shouldn't foreigners have the same rights.
This is all bullshit anyway, as if liberals would care about any of this if HIllary was the one who won.
If Americans have the freedom to spread fake news why shouldn't foreigners have the same rights.
This is all bullshit anyway, as if liberals would care about any of this if HIllary was the one who won.
Hillary who put such a smack down on putin he supported trump to be the president? Yeah I'm sure she would have done nothing.
Blood Borne
Member
Serious question.
When people say Russia 'interfered' or 'intruded' in the election, what do they exactly mean?
Do they mean that Russia hacked the voting booth/machine?
Can someone please help me out, because I really don't get it.
When people say Russia 'interfered' or 'intruded' in the election, what do they exactly mean?
Do they mean that Russia hacked the voting booth/machine?
Can someone please help me out, because I really don't get it.
CampbellzSoup
Member
The left thinks Russian propaganda influenced peoples decisons on the elections...
Grinchy
Banned
Apparently, finding out and making public how much Hillary cheated her way through the primaries was worse than Hillary cheating her way through the primaries.
rokkerkory
Member
At least Trump's nuclear button is bigger and works > NK's! Eat that Kim!
Blood Borne
Member
if that is it, then leftists are even more pathetic than I thought.
Loool. Well put.
Dusk Soldier
Member
i. These articles don't demonstrate that average American people actual care about income inequality. Nor do they show how raising taxes fixes that issue.
Not to mention looking at data empiracally, US States with high taxation tend to have higher rates of poverty and general income inequality, than states with low/little taxation.
ii. This example is really a propos, because a person earning £30mil owes closer to £12mil at current tax rates, more than double the £5mil you're suggesting.
You obviously don't agree with people being taxed at 30% to 40% income rates.Otherwise why low ball the tax rates so much in your example?
iii. The most basic economic principle is the relationship between price and demand. If you raise the price ( in this case taxes) you lower demand (in this case the amount of people paying the full tax rate, or taxes at all.)
In the fifties, when the income tax rates were massive, it was due to the US having a monopoly on industrial manufacturing. Those levels of taxation wouldn't work in the modern economy. It would drive many businesses right out of the country.
Literally a man child in an adults body. And yet ~30% still support him.
"But screw dem libruls" I guess
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