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Turkey anger at Pope Francis Armenian 'genocide' claim.

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Update #2: Hackers target the Vatican’s Web site over Pope Francis’ ‘genocide’ comment

THE WASHINGTON POST said:
Turkish hackers reportedly targeted the Vatican’s Web site on Monday after Pope Francis referred to the mass killings of Armenians by Turks as a “genocide,” according to reports.

Vatican.va was knocked offline after a cyber attack Monday night, according to reports, but was back online by Tuesday morning.

A Turkish hacker posted on Twitter taking credit and demanding an apology.


The Vatican has been targeted by hackers in the past. Anonymous, an international hacking group, took down the Catholic Church’s main Web site in 2012. The group has made repeated attempts to take down the church’s website.

The attack comes as pope called the 1915 killings of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Turks a “genocide,” and not just any genocide but “the first genocide of the 20th century.”

In the voice of the comedian Bill Burr...Ohhhhh Jeeeeeezzzzusss!

Updated #1: Here's a superior read from the Washington Post on the subject.

I highly recommend you read the entire article above, it's not that long..


Here's an excerpt:

WASHINGTON POST said:
“In order to understand Turkey and its denialism, you have to compare it to apartheid in South Africa,” says Taner Akçam, a Turkish professor of history at Clark University. “If Turkey wants to play an important role in the political development in the Middle East, Turkey has to face its own history.”

“No other historical issue causes such anguish in Washington,” Thomas de Waal wrote recently in an article titled “The G-Word: The Armenian Massacre and the Politics 
of Genocide” in Foreign Affairs. “Over the years, the debate has come to center on a single word, ‘genocide,’ a term that has acquired such power that some refuse to utter it aloud, calling it ‘the G-word’ instead. For most Armenians, it seems that no other label could possibly describe the suffering of their people. For the Turkish government, almost any other word would be acceptable.”

A century ago, there was little doubt about the magnitude of the massacre, de Waal writes. In 1914, the quickly crumbling Ottoman Empire sought to recoup some of its recently lost territories by siding with Germany against Russia. Turkish leader Mehmed Talat Pasha “accused Christian Armenians — a population of almost two million, most of whom lived in what is now eastern Turkey — of sympathizing with Russia and thus representing a potential fifth column,” according to de Waal. “Talat ordered the deportation of almost the entire people to the arid deserts of Syria. In the process, at least half of the men were killed by Turkish security forces or marauding Kurdish tribesmen. Women and children survived in greater numbers but endured appalling depredation, abductions, and rape on the long marches."


BBC News said:
Turkey has recalled its envoy to the Vatican after Pope Francis described the mass killing of Armenians under Ottoman rule in WW1 as "genocide".
Turkey has reacted with anger to the comment made by the Pope at a service in Rome earlier on Sunday.
Armenia and many historians say up to 1.5 million people were killed by Ottoman forces in 1915.
But Turkey has always disputed that figure and said the deaths were part of a civil conflict triggered by WW1.
The row has continued to sour relations between Armenia and Turkey.
'Bleeding wound'
The Pope made the comments at a Mass in the Armenian Catholic rite at Peter's Basilica, attended by the Armenian president and church leaders.
He said that humanity had lived through "three massive and unprecedented tragedies" in the last century.
"The first, which is widely considered 'the first genocide of the 20th Century', struck your own Armenian people," he said, in a form of words used by a declaration by Pope John Paul II in 2001.


Pope Francis also referred to the crimes "perpetrated by Nazism and Stalinism" and said other genocides had followed in Cambodia, Rwanda, Burundi and Bosnia.
He said it was his duty to honour the memories of those who were killed.


Article and Video Here.

Reuters Video Here

ZqgQ
 

Betty

Banned
It's not a claim, it happened and it should be remembered.

There was a great thread made about it a while back which can be found here.
 

18-Volt

Member
This whole stupid "denial" thing would disappear in just a moment if Demirtas is elected as the leader of the nation.

Which will never happen. It's good to dream, though...
 

Hagi

Member
It's not a claim, it happened and it should be remembered.

There was a great thread made about it a while back which can be found here.

Holy shit I don't think horrific quite conveys the things they did to those poor people. Reading about mass atrocities like these makes me realize how sheltered and lucky i am, to think things like this still happen in the modern world is hard to reconcile.

So yeah fuck the Turkish government.
 
Holy shit I don't think horrific quite conveys the things they did to those poor people. Reading about mass atrocities like these makes me realize how sheltered and lucky i am, to think things like this still happen in the modern world is hard to reconcile.

So yeah fuck the Turkish government.

It's not just the government the people deny it also I even know people who still do.
 

Africanus

Member
Nearly a century later, and the remnants of the Ottoman Empire can not face the horrid deeds that it commited.
I would remind everyone here that the 100th anniversary of this genocide is on April 24th, 2015. It marks the day in 1915 when thousands of local Armenian leaders of Istanbul were forcefully deported and sent for execution.
 

RyanDG

Member
How does it even benefit the average Turk to keep denying it? So many other countries can acknowledge the atrocities commuted by their ancestors. Get over yourself, Turkey.

There's still a lot of glorification of that timeframe of Turkey's history, and when combined with the fact that up until the last 25 years or so, there was a lot of focus on how there were 'atrocities' committed by both sides, it isn't hard to believe that there is still an issue with identifying the act as genocide.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
pope should shut up when it comes to nazis and the church. They weren't innocent and why we let them pretend they are is beyond me.
 

18-Volt

Member
How does it even benefit the average Turk to keep denying it? So many other countries can acknowledge the atrocities commuted by their ancestors. Get over yourself, Turkey.

It's actually not about "ancestors" thing. People of Turkey don't want "peaceful religion" of Islam to be stained by such an evil act. To them Muslims are and have been the purest and sinless people in the world and will continue being so.

One of the main reasons of the genocide was Islam too. Empire didn't have heartless SS officers but they did have something similar to Islamic mujaheeden instead and they have committed those acts without any hesitation.
 

Africanus

Member
I would also have people not forget the concurrent Assyrian and Greek genocides, which were similarly as devestating, and similarly denied by Turkey.
There was also a mass wave of antagonism against Christians.
 
I'm wondering when the genocides commited against Turks and other Muslim peoples in the Balkans and Caucasus will be recognised? This debate is one sided. Turks, Azeris, Kurds and Caucasian Muslims used to live in the area that is now modern day Armenia. What happened to them? Will the Pope and other people who are keen on recognising the Armenian Genocide bring this up as well?

That's what Turks are upset about. That the onus is on us to apologise for an atrocity from our side, but you rarely if ever see the opposite pressure. On top of this it's only Turks who are made to apologise, yet a lot of the places the Armenians were ethnically cleansed from are Kurdish majority lands today. Why not the same pressure on Kurds to apologise?

I recognise that Armenians were ethnically cleansed from parts of Turkey, but I don't think it was a genocide aimed at wiping out the entire Armenian race, and I feel that the Turks (and other Muslims) that were cleansed from the Balkans, Caucasus and Armenia are not remembered with the same sympathy that the Armenians get.

Sorry for being cynical but I believe it is to do with the fact that the most powerful nations in the world during the late Ottoman Era were Christian majority countries, so they felt more sympathy for the Armenians and therefore recorded atrocities Turks committed with more veracity than the atrocities committed on Turks. This implicit bias has spread to this day, fueled by the fact there is a strong Armenian lobby in America and Europe, when Turks unfortunately haven't coalesced to pressure international governments to recognise the atrocities committed to our peoples.

Adding to this is the fact that the modern Republic of Turkey is a polity that was formed in opposition to the Ottoman Government, and it was under Ottoman jurisdiction that the Armenians were killed. The issue is far more complicated than simply "why won't they just apologise?".

I would also have people not forget the concurrent Assyrian and Greek genocides, which were similarly as devestating, and similarly denied by Turkey.
There was also a mass wave of antagonism against Christians.

And the genocides against Balkan Turks and Caucasus Turks.

Are you Turkish? If so, is WWI sort of glossed over in school?

It isn't glossed over, it's a heavy focus since it's a source of national pride that we repelled the British invasion. Many folk songs, poems, films and plays are centered around the events of the attempted British invasion of Turkey.
 

CloudWolf

Member
The way many Turks behave if you mention what The Ottomans did to the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks during WW1 is absurd. Recently I was in a meeting with the marketing division of a Turkish film festival, all pretty smart and levelheaded people, but as soon as I mentioned the Armenian Genocide (I had just read a news article on it), everyone looked at me like I had just insulted their mother. Just acknowledge that you did some horrible things during wartime. Almost every country has their fair share of war atrocities, there's no shame in admitting that your old governments did some very shady things.
 

18-Volt

Member
I'm wondering when the genocides commited against Turks and other Muslim peoples in the Balkans and Caucasus will be recognised? This debate is one sided. Turks, Azeris, Kurds and Caucasian Muslims used to live in the area that is now modern day Armenia. What happened to them? Will the Pope and other people who are keen on recognising the Armenian Genocide bring this up as well?

That's what Turks are upset about. That the onus is on us to apologise for an atrocity from our side, but you rarely if ever see the opposite pressure. On top of this it's only Turks who are made to apologise, yet a lot of the places the Armenians were ethnically cleansed from are Kurdish majority lands today. Why not the same pressure on Kurds to apologise?

I recognise that Armenians were ethnically cleansed from parts of Turkey, but I don't think it was a genocide aimed at wiping out the entire Armenian race, and I feel that the Turks (and other Muslims) that were cleansed from the Balkans, Caucasus and Armenia are not remembered with the same sympathy that the Armenians get.

Sorry for being cynical but I believe it is to do with the fact that the most powerful nations in the world during the late Ottoman Era were Christian majority countries, so they felt more sympathy for the Armenians and therefore recorded atrocities Turks committed with more veracity than the atrocities committed on Turks. This implicit bias has spread to this day, fueled by the fact there is a strong Armenian lobby in America and Europe, when Turks unfortunately haven't coalesced to pressure international governments to recognise the atrocities committed to our peoples.

You should get your facts straight dude. Yes, there are muslim people get killed in the mess too but their number was way too low to be compared what happened to Christians. We're talking about 1,5 million christians here.

Plus, please don't refer muslim people of Caucasus and Balkans as "Turks". Bosnians are Bosnians, Circassians are Circassians. They're completely different races from Turanic race. What you're doing is called chauvinism.
 

Syriel

Member
That's what Turks are upset about. That the onus is on us to apologise for an atrocity from our side, but you rarely if ever see the opposite pressure. On top of this it's only Turks who are made to apologise, yet a lot of the places the Armenians were ethnically cleansed from are Kurdish majority lands today. Why not the same pressure on Kurds to apologise?

Actually, the issue is more like "Why does Turkey flip the fuck out every time someone mentions it?"

It happened. It's fact. It's in the past.

Everyone knows that's not the Turkey of today, but that doesn't mean we need to whitewash the past.

Turkey is the one that keeps making it a "big thing" in the news by harping on it every time someone mentions it and acting all offended.

It's the equivalent of Russia denying any involvement in Crimea.

As to your second point, no one is out there screaming that they are "deeply offended" when other incidents are brought up. That's why they don't make the news that often.

The Armenian genocide claims always get in the news because Turkey always Streisands the fuck out of them.
 
pope should shut up when it comes to nazis and the church. They weren't innocent and why we let them pretend they are is beyond me.
That has nothing to do with this at all and that was church officials from years ago. Why can't he comment on this?
 
You should get your facts straight dude. Yes, there are muslim people get killed in the mess too but their number was way too low to be compared what happened to Christians. We're talking about 1,5 million christians here.

Plus, please don't refer muslim people of Caucasus and Balkans as "Turks". Bosnians are Bosnians, Circassians are Circassians. They're completely different races from Turanic race. What you're doing is called chauvinism.

No, I'm referring to Turks that lived in the Balkans and Caucasus. Their numbers were heavily depleted during those dark years of nationalism from all sides, and that includes Turks that lived in the area that is now the modern nation-state of Armenia. The survivors migrated to Turkey.

Actually, the issue is more like "Why does Turkey flip the fuck out every time someone mentions it?"

It happened. It's fact. It's in the past.

Everyone knows that's not the Turkey of today, but that doesn't mean we need to whitewash the past.

Turkey is the one that keeps making it a "big thing" in the news by harping on it every time someone mentions it and acting all offended.

It's the equivalent of Russia denying any involvement in Crimea.

As to your second point, no one is out there screaming that they are "deeply offended" when other incidents are brought up. That's why they don't make the news that often.

The Armenian genocide claims always get in the news because Turkey always Streisands the fuck out of them.

Yes exactly. The reason people don't know about the Turkish peoples killed in that era is because there isn't a Turkish lobby equivalent to the Armenian lobby.

Same reason Azeris cleansed by Armenians in Nagorno Karabagh is barely known.

It's not a black and white issue that Turks are evil and Armenians are the meek lambs. In that era of nationalism people from all religious backgrounds and ethnic groups suffered. Turks just wish those incidents were as aired in international debate as the Armenian issue is.
 
The sooner Turkish authorities accept this as genocide, the better. They look like complete fools denying such a big, monstrous thing happened.
 
It's actually not about "ancestors" thing. People of Turkey don't want "peaceful religion" of Islam to be stained by such an evil act. To them Muslims are and have been the purest and sinless people in the world and will continue being so.

One of the main reasons of the genocide was Islam too. Empire didn't have heartless SS officers but they did have something similar to Islamic mujaheeden instead and they have committed those acts without any hesitation.

Yeah, okay.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Of course the AKP is angry, they have a lot riding on the romantic nationalistic image of the Ottoman empire. If you can criticize the Ottomans, the people would become less nationalistic and next thing you'll know they start criticizing Erdogan. Though that's probably a criminal offence by now anyway.
 
Of course the AKP is angry, they have a lot riding on the romantic nationalistic image of the Ottoman empire. If you can criticize the Ottomans, the people would become less nationalistic and next thing you'll know they start criticizing Erdogan. Though that's probably a criminal offence by now anyway.

Insulting Erdogan is a national past-time in Turkey. Turkish nationalism isn't tied to the Ottoman Empire.

It's actually not about "ancestors" thing. People of Turkey don't want "peaceful religion" of Islam to be stained by such an evil act. To them Muslims are and have been the purest and sinless people in the world and will continue being so.

One of the main reasons of the genocide was Islam too. Empire didn't have heartless SS officers but they did have something similar to Islamic mujaheeden instead and they have committed those acts without any hesitation.

I think nationalist and ethnic feelings are a bigger part of the denial of the atroicities, but I agree that religion played a role in upper class Ottoman Turkish officers getting Turkish and Kurdish villagers to commit the crimes.
 
To be fair its not like America talk about the Native American genocide.
If we lived in a world where Native American minorities migrated to Europe and pressured local governments to use the Native American genocide as political weight when dealing with America, then it would be comparable. The Turkish-Armenian issue is so mired in politics compared to other nations issues, that's what makes the Turkish government and people so stubborn in denying it. If it wasn't so politicised I think there would be less of a wedge.
 

spekkeh

Banned

18-Volt

Member
It's not a black and white issue that Turks are evil and Armenians are the meek lambs. In that era of nationalism people from all religious backgrounds and ethnic groups suffered. Turks just wish those incidents were as aired in national debate as the Armenian issue is.

Well, it was kind of black and white issue. It's the Turks who had the gigantic empire, rights to own firearms and tax exemption. They were the oppressor and everyone else living in the Empire were the oppressed. That makes Turkish claims of "our side has suffered too" pretty weak.

Before WW1 it was the time of Abdulhamid and he successfully demonized the non-muslim population of the Empire, you know. Before Armenian genocide there were Hamidian massacres where Armenian, Assyrian and Aramaic peoples got massacred by special forces formed by Abdulhamid for only one purpose: destroy christianity and its adherents. Armenians weren't armed then, peacefully living in their Anatolian homes. Sultan feared them, in any minute they could revolt against the empire just like Serbians, Albanians and Greeks did in west. He chose to destroy them. To wipe them out. That's it. Motives were crystal clear.

Of course muslims got killed in 1915 events but that doesn't mean genocide didn't happened. Expecting people to feel sorry for muslim loses is just like Germans saying "Yes, many jews were killed but you have to accept that German civilians were killed in battle too. We'll recognize holocaust only if people of the world feels bad for our civilian casualties".
 

Buzzati

Banned
If we lived in a world where Native American minorities migrated to Europe and pressured local governments to use the Native American genocide as political weight when dealing with America, then it would be comparable. The Turkish-Armenian issue is so mired in politics compared to other nations issues, that's what makes the Turkish government and people so stubborn in denying it. If it wasn't so politicised I think there would be less of a wedge.

EDIT: I'd rather not
 

Africanus

Member
To be fair its not like America talk about the Native American genocide.

There's a difference between not recognizing that an event happened and actively denying it, and recognizing an event but placing it horridly to the side. The United States does the latter, and while it is terrible, at least it allows room for discussion regarding the matter.

Regardless, how is the United States of America relevant in this discussion? It is a sovereign nation separate from the affairs of the other independent sovereign nation Turkey. There is little "fair" regarding this diversion.
 
To be fair, I dont see the government of the United States regularly denying it nor do I see what this has to do with Turkey.

But we put the President responsible for Trail of Tears on 20 dollar bill. It's like Turkey accepting Armenian genocide, then putting the face of the Pasha responsible for carrying it out on their Lira.
 
Well, it was kind of black and white issue. It's the Turks who had the gigantic empire, rights to own firearms and tax exemption. They were the oppressor and everyone else living in the Empire were the oppressed. That makes Turkish claims of "our side has suffered too" pretty weak.

Before WW1 it was the time of Abdulhamid and he successfully demonized the non-muslim population of the Empire, you know. Before Armenian genocide there were Hamidian massacres where Armenian, Assyrian and Aramaic peoples got massacred by special forces formed by Abdulhamid for only one purpose: destroy christianity and its adherents. Armenians weren't armed then, peacefully living in their Anatolian homes. Sultan feared them, in any minute they could revolt against the empire just like Serbians, Albanians and Greeks did in west. He chose to destroy them. To wipe them out. That's it. Motives were crystal clear.

Of course muslims got killed in 1915 events but that doesn't mean genocide didn't happened. Expecting people to feel sorry for muslim loses is just like Germans saying "Yes, many jews were killed but you have to accept that German civilians were killed in battle too. We'll recognize holocaust only if people of the world feels bad for our civilian casualties".

The Empire that Turks loved so much that they themselves rebelled from it as well! Let's not ignore this fact. The modern day Republic of Turkey polity is a descendant of a rebel movement against the Ottoman Empire, exactly the same as Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Armenia etc. etc. and the polity that were in charge of where the genocide occurred was not the same polity that led to the modern Turkish Republic.

I don't deny that Turkish and Kurdish on Christian massacres were way more in number due to the fact the Turks were the hegemonic power, but let's get one thing straight here. The Turkish deaths and displacement I'm referring to occurred in territories the Ottomans lost. If only the new nations such as Serbia, Bulgaria, Greeks and Romania were as meek as you claim then perhaps Turks would still live there in the millions, but the reality is that Turks suffered similar fates and that story is not as known worldwide.

That's where my beef lies, that there are millions of people worldwide who look at this issue and literally think only Turks oppressed Christians. Under the Ottomans yes I don't doubt it, but towards the end there were Turks that found themselves in trouble in the newly formed "Christian" nation-states.

I want Turkey to acknowledge the genocide. It's embarrassing that we deny something that has so much evidence behind it. But why doesn't Armenia have to acknowledge the extinction of the Azeri Turkish community of Yerevan? I look at demographics of the Ottoman Empire and see Turks in high numbers in so many places, where they are few and far between now. Why is the extinction of these Turkish communities not talked about alongside the Armenian Genocide as one big multi-cultural recognition of genocide? That would be so much better imo, rather than the current partisan debate with Armenians on one side, Turks on the other, and world states flipping and flopping one way or another depending on what suits their agenda.

I'll conclude and say that it's easy to be a non-Turk and say "Why don't you guys just accept it was a one-way thing and not bring up Turkish deaths". But from this side it's not easy to do. I'll be frank and admit it, it's hard to do. It's hard for me to accept "Yes my people are the evil ones." Is that hard to understand? No one wants to think their ethnic group were bad guys. Perhaps that's all it comes down to, the sickening thought that your ancestors could do such a thing?

FWIW my personal ancestors don't come from areas where the massacres occurred, but obviously I'm talking in terms of Turks as a whole.

If they accept the facts what happens then?

Armenia gets enough money to break free from being a Russian Satellite.

It's pretty stupid to deny a genocide that clearly happened.

There seems to be a lot of this coming from Turkey.

So let's say Turkey accepts the genocide. Will the recognition of Turkish genocides that occurred in the newly formed post-Ottoman Christian states be next on the international agenda? I somehow doubt it.

EDIT: I'd rather not

I mean, you can if you want. We're all civil people here.
 
The fact that this charade by the Turkish government has gone on for so long is astounding. Also, it's not a 'claim', it never was a 'claim', and the US gov should be ashamed of itself for not recognizing that it happened.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Sorry, but you don't get to revise your own blood-stained history. No one does. History is history. Recognize it, learn from it, but don't deny it.
 

onken

Member
I'll conclude and say that it's easy to be a non-Turk and say "Why don't you guys just accept it was a one-way thing and not bring up Turkish deaths". But from this side it's not easy to do. I'll be frank and admit it, it's hard to do. It's hard for me to accept "Yes my people are the evil ones." Is that hard to understand? No one wants to think their ethnic group were bad guys. Perhaps that's all it comes down to, the sickening thought that your ancestors could do such a thing?

FWIW my personal ancestors don't come from areas where the massacres occurred, but obviously I'm talking in terms of Turks as a whole.



Armenia gets enough money to break free from being a Russian Satellite.



So let's say Turkey accepts the genocide. Will the recognition of Turkish genocides that occurred in the newly formed post-Ottoman Christian states be next on the international agenda? I somehow doubt it.



I mean, you can if you want. We're all civil people here.


For someone with such an obvious horse in the race, you should know when to step back and say "I have a clear bias". No-one is blaming you for that, it's natural. But you also have to realize that your position is incredibly shaky. If there is a persuasive argument coming out of this, it's not going to be from you.
 
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