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[NateDog]

I won't say I'm as clued up on the subject as others are but I did a bit of reading into the history of some areas around the Levant like Smyrna and what happened back before / around the world war during the Young Turks' reign. Utterly atrocious, I didn't know it was something that was still being ignored and denied though which is such a sad thing to hear.

 

[Stereogatari]

For someone with such an obvious horse in the race, you should know when to step back and say "I have a clear bias". No-one is blaming you for that, it's natural. But you also have to realize that your position is incredibly shaky. If there is a persuasive argument coming out of this, it's not going to be from you.

Nor is it coming from the Armenians either of course. That I totally agree with.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

To be fair its not like America talk about the Native American genocide.

We are taught about this in school. Textbooks go over that period of history and don't deny the atrocities committed in the past. Thinking back to that period in my earlier teen years, and then in American History classes in college, neither time painted that era in a rosy light. The books basically went into detail with everything wrong with white settlers' conquering of the Native Americans. There's no romanticizing of that era(unlike many decades in the past).

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I remember the first time I learned about the Armenian genocide in school. The part that pissed me off most of all was how little attention was given to it, both at the time when it happened and in our curriculum.

I went to my History teacher and told her "we have to talk about this more!", especially in light of the genocides that followed during the rest of the century.

 

[The Albatross]

Actually, the issue is more like "Why does Turkey flip the fuck out every time someone mentions it?"

It happened. It's fact. It's in the past.

Everyone knows that's not the Turkey of today, but that doesn't mean we need to whitewash the past.

Turkey is the one that keeps making it a "big thing" in the news by harping on it every time someone mentions it and acting all offended.

It's the equivalent of Russia denying any involvement in Crimea.

As to your second point, no one is out there screaming that they are "deeply offended" when other incidents are brought up. That's why they don't make the news that often.

The Armenian genocide claims always get in the news because Turkey always Streisands the fuck out of them.

The reason Turkey flips out when it's mentioned is because of how involved Ataturk was during the genocide, and how it didn't happen under only the Ottoman Turks and/or it wasn't committed only by people who were thrown out of power or held accountable. Many of the perpetrators and masterminds of the Armenian Genocide would go onto become key members of the founding of the Turkish Republic, which consider itself a sane, republican government founded on Western and Turkish principles.

The fact that Ataturk, who is as close to a civilian god in Turkey, was involved with the Genocide and was never held accountable is a crisis of identity for Turkey. And this isn't to take away (In my perspective) from Ataturk as a leader... He's the greatest leader of any Middle Eastern country in the last 150 years, and yet, there is this stain of contributing to genocide in his past.

(FYI, definitely not arguing on behalf of Turkey here, but this is why Turkey consistently refuses to recognize the Genocide, versus say other countries guilty of Genocide [like say Nazi Germany] where those leaders were thrown out, tried, and their form of government doesn't exist anymore. The Armenian Genocide happened at the dawn of the Turkish Republic, and it's chief proponent & revered hero Kemal Ataturk was involved)

 

[DarkMehm]

Of course no one in the government thinks "We don't believe the lies of the west, something like that never happened". Everyone on the upper level knows it happened.

The problem is purely a political one. If Turkey officially recognizes the genocide Armenia will file several land claims, which they most probably will get. The Thing is Turkey is one of the most conservative countries in the world when it comes to the protection of their borders. Literally every male is ready to give their lives to protect even one centimeter of land.

As long as this stalemate continues Turkey will never recognize the genocide, not even in 200 years. One of them has to give in majorly, like Armenia being content with money compensation only.

 

[Stereogatari]

Of course no one in the government thinks "We don't believe the lies of the west, something like that never happened". Everyone on the upper level knows it happened.

The problem is purely a political one. If Turkey officially recognizes the genocide Armenia will file several land claims, which they most probably will get. The Thing is Turkey is one of the most conservative countries in the world when it comes to the protection of their borders. Literally every male is ready to give their lives to protect even one centimeter of land.

As long as this stalemate continues Turkey will never recognize the genocide, not even in 200 years. One of them has to give in majorly, like Armenia being content with money compensation only.

A lot of people bring up the point of land reparations, but how would that even be implemented without causing a full blown war?

You're right about the fierce nationalism of Turkish people, which includes all demographics, young, old, non-religious, religious etc.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Nor is it coming from the Armenians either of course. That I totally agree with.

Now this is a lot of nonsense. Part of their claim is that the Turkish deny it and your entire string of posts have all been you thrashing your arms about wildly with soft denial. I call it soft denial because you've mostly attempted to avoid addressing the actual point rather than simply denying it directly. Instead you focus on things like "The modern Turks are distinct from the old Empire!", "But what about...?", and "If only the Armenians and rest of the world...".

The first is avoiding admitting the genocide occurred while at the same time trying to distance the modern Turkish people from it, the second is trying to downplay the events and create a sort of equivalence between all deaths at the time, and the third is attempting to make Turkey the victim in all this that everyone else is treating unfairly. Trying into the second and third, you also have attempted to treat acceptance of the genocide as some sort of quid pro quo deal where everyone gets blame and apparently things even out (or something). All of this is avoiding addressing the actual issue.

 

[Stereogatari]

Now this is a lot of nonsense. Part of their claim is that the Turkish deny it and your entire string of posts have all been you thrashing your arms about wildly with soft denial. I call it soft denial because you've mostly attempted to avoid addressing the actual point rather than simply denying it directly. Instead you focus on things like "The modern Turks are distinct from the old Empire!", "But what about...?", and "If only the Armenians and rest of the world...".

The first is avoiding admitting the genocide occurred while at the same time trying to distance the modern Turkish people from it, the second is trying to downplay the events and create a sort of equivalence between all deaths at the time, and the third is attempting to make Turkey the victim in all this that everyone else is treating unfairly. Trying into the second and third, you also have attempted to treat acceptance of the genocide as some sort of quid pro quo deal where everyone gets blame and apparently things even out (or something). All of this is avoiding addressing the actual issue.

The Armenians are just as invested in the partisan nature of the debate. They are supporting the Armenian side because they're Armenian. That's what my point was with that post, as a reply to the guy who said I have bias, well Armenians have bias as well.

I've stated my case, I admit that Armenians were cleansed from Eastern Turkey, but my point is that Armenian deaths mean a lot more to the Western World than Turkish deaths, because we never seem to talk about how Turks were cleansed from Armenia, the Caucasus and Balkans, but only about Christians that were cleansed from Turkey.

 

[The Albatross]

It's factually untrue that the modern Turkish government is separated from the government that committed the Genocide. Many of the fathers of modern Turkey, including Ataturk himself, were key actors in the Armenian Genocide.

The Armenians are just as invested in the partisan nature of the debate. They are supporting the Armenian side because they're Armenian. That's what my point was.

Everything you said in paragraph 2 is bollocks. I've stated my case, I admit that Armenians were cleansed from Eastern Turkey, but my point is that Armenian deaths mean a lot more to the Western World than Turkish deaths.

Innocent civilian deaths perpetrated by a government on an oppressed minority typically do mean more. That's why we have the word "genocide." This is why people remember the Jewish holocaust in Germany, with some 6 million Jewish deaths, and don't remember the 80 million German soldiers and civilians killed by Allied troops. The 80 million German soldiers and civilians were not a genocide.

 

[Stereogatari]

Innocent civilian deaths perpetrated by a government on an oppressed minority typically do mean more. That's why we have the word "genocide."

Yes. Exactly. As happened to Turks that found themselves under Christian rule after the Christian minorities seceded from the Ottoman Empire. I'll repeat again, there used to be Turkish communities across the whole Balkan peninsular and those that remain there now are concentrated towards the Bulgarian-Turkish and Greco-Turkish borders, not to mention there used to be a considerable populations of Turks in what is now the Republic of Armenia.

It's factually untrue that the modern Turkish government is separated from the government that committed the Genocide. Many of the fathers of modern Turkey, including Ataturk himself, were key actors in the Armenian Genocide.

The modern Turkish government declared independence from the Ottoman government, so it's a very grey area.

Ataturk was not a key actor in the killing of Armenians. He was on the opposite side of the country when the killings occurred.

 

[Monocle]

Why does the pope have to throw around loaded words like "genocide" when he's talking about events where huge numbers of people were killed? Rude.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Why does the pope have to throw around loaded words like "genocide" when he's talking about events where huge numbers of people were killed? Rude.

We all know this pope has been out of control for a while now..

 

[Azih]

Seriously screw Turkey on this. I don't know what it takes for a country to realize that owning up to past atrocities isn't some sort of unforgivable sin against national pride.

 

[Stereogatari]

Seriously screw Turkey on this. I don't know what it takes for a country to realize that owning up to past atrocities isn't some sort of unforgivable sin against national pride.

Perhaps if this had the same prominence in the Western and International psyche, then Turkey and Turks would be less stubborn about the whole thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims

This isn't a pride thing for Turks. It's a feeling that the onus is only on them to apologise for past atrocities, but no one is being prodded to apologise for Turkish deaths in the same era.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

pope should shut up when it comes to nazis and the church. They weren't innocent and why we let them pretend they are is beyond me.

what does that have to do with WWI / Turkey and Armenia?

Nazi's did not share power , and had their own religion , read up on the topic.

 

[Jag]

Screw Turkey. Germany owned up to its past and the world accepted it. Turkey needs to start acting like a modern nation and not a spoiled child.

Professor Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term 'genocide', specifically referred to the Armenian Genocide when explaining how and why he came up with it.

The world should never forget the crimes of the past. The sooner Turkey accepts this, the sooner they can move on from it.

 

[jamsy]

Yes exactly. The reason people don't know about the Turkish peoples killed in that era is because there isn't a Turkish lobby equivalent to the Armenian lobby.

Same reason Azeris cleansed by Armenians in Nagorno Karabagh is barely known..

Are you fucking kidding me? There isn't a Turkish lobby equivalent to the Armenian lobby? Because we're that such a huge and powerful minority?

You mention Nagorno Karabagh but you don't mention what sparked the conflict between those two countries, the pogroms by the Azeris against the Armenians in Sumgait and Baku during 1988-1989, something even less known to the average person.

Because as an Armenian born in Baku and having witnessed these horrible things myself and having seen what happened to friends and family and pretty much every person of my ethnicity in Azerbaijan, being reduced to refugees and having to leave everything we've ever had behind, I would maybe know a thing or two about what actually happened in the region.

You seem to be doing a good job at toeing the company line though, every time the issue is brought up, Turkey flips it upside down and blames the Armenians. I'll try to keep it civil here, but next time let's try to mention things we actually know a fucking thing about.

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

This is the first time I'm hearing about the all powerful Armenian lobby in the US. They must be THAT good if I didn't even know of their existence.

 

[Jasper]

Professor Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term 'genocide', specifically referred to the Armenian Genocide when explaining how and why he came up with it.

EXACTLY!!!!

The fucking word "GENOCIDE" was created specifically because of what the Turks did to the Armenians!

 

[Dude Abides]

This is the first time I'm hearing about the all powerful Armenian lobby in the US. They must be THAT good if I didn't even know of their existence.

It exists. My friend's father is involved with them. It isn't very powerful, certainly not compared to the Turkish government's influence.

 

[TedMilk]

 

[Jasper]

Here is a copy and paste of a thread I created about this matter here on NeoGAF a while back....

WARNING - GRAPHIC PHOTOS BELOW


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today marks the 98th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

The Armenian Genocide was the Ottoman Empire's (now Turkey) government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian population from the Armenian's historical homeland in the territory that is present day Turkey.

It took place during World War I and was comprised of the killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and forced labor, and the deportation of women, children, the elderly and disabled on death marches to the Syrian Desert.

The total number of Armenians killed as a result of the Armenian Genocide has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million.

It is acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides, as scholars point to the organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians, and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust. The word "genocide" was created by Raphael Lemkin in order to describe what had happened to the Armenians.

The starting date of the genocide is held to be April 24, 1915, the day when Ottoman authorities arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. Thereafter, the Ottoman military uprooted Armenians from their homes and forced them to march for hundreds of miles towards extermination camps, depriving them of food and water, to the desert of what is now Syria. Massacres were indiscriminate of age or gender, with rape and other sexual abuse commonplace.

Examples of forms of torture and murder included mass burnings, mass drownings, mass death marches, and use of poison/drug overdoses for in particular children including morphine overdose, toxic gas, and typhoid inoculation.

Turkey, the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, denies the word genocide is an accurate description of the events. In recent years, it has faced repeated calls to accept the events as genocide. To date, twenty countries including France, Canada, Russia & Switzerland have officially recognized the events of the period as genocide, and most genocide scholars and historians accept that it was indeed a genocide.

You will find below photos of the events of the Armenian Genocide. You may find some photos DISTURBING, but what I have posted below is in fact extremely tame compared to other photos which show Armenians during the genocide being crucified to crosses, beheaded, and babies being dismembered using contraptions to cut them in half.

Note that torture against the Armenians by the Turks during the genocide was prevalent & encouraged by the Ottoman government.

In a New York Times communiqué filed on November 12, 1916, the German Consul at Mosul “had in many places seen such quantities of chopped-off hands of little children that the streets might have been paved with them.” Armenians “had their eyebrows plucked out, their breasts cut off, their nails torn off; their torturers hew off their feet or else hammer nails into them just as they do in shoeing horses.” Citing a witness, Samuel Bartlett of Toronto, the New York Times continued, “the Turks also took all the babies in the town and threw them into the river until it overflowed its banks. They let out the priests, put red-hot iron shoes on their feet, tied them to wagons and forced them to walk long distances.” Summarizing the execution plan of the genocide, Colonel Hawker (New York Times, June 7, 1919) states: “The Turkish plan was to take all the able-bodied men from the community and tie them up. Then they would torture them by cutting their flesh and burning their wounds. Finally, they would cut off their heads in the presence of the wives and children of the victims. The old men, women and children were [then] herded together and driven from place to place.” Ambassador Morgenthau reflects on the perpetrator psychology behind these atrocities that “the basic fact underlying the Turkish mentality is its utter contempt for all other races … [There is] a total disregard for human life and an intense delight in inflicting physical suffering.” Morgenthau concludes soberly that a “fairly insane pride is the element that largely explains [this behavior].

After a review of thousands of pages of accounts, five characteristics of the Armenian genocide stand out:

- Sexual atrocities and bodily mutilation were integral to the genocidal process.

- Turks competed with pride to develop the most diabolical methods of torture (i.e., horseshoeing men; mutilation of ear, nose and eyes; women’s severed breasts and nipples collected for display; stuffing steel wool up a man’s anus and into his penis; progressive dismemberment of victim limbs).

- Intimate tortures and prolonged deaths were the preferred approach.

- Family members were, wherever possible, required to witness atrocities.

Methods of degradation were, wherever possible, designed to maximize perpetrator amusement.

There have been many documentaries and films about the Armenian Genocide, including a PBS documentary narrated by Natalie Portman, Orlando Bloom, Jared Leto, and Julianna Margulies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF71ruYqJxM).

I will end with a quote by Adolf Hitler, who many historians believe was inspired by the Armenian Genocide.

I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

Adolf Hitler - August 22, 1939

 

[coleco]

You seem to be doing a good job at toeing the company line though, every time the issue is brought up, Turkey flips it upside down and blames the Armenians.

This is the impression I get by reading his posts.

 

[Stereogatari]

Are you fucking kidding me? There isn't a Turkish lobby equivalent to the Armenian lobby? Because we're that such a huge and powerful minority?

You mention Nagorno Karabagh but you don't mention what sparked the conflict between those two countries, the pogroms by the Azeris against the Armenians in Sumgait and Baku during 1988-1989, something even less known to the average person.

Because as an Armenian born in Baku and having witnessed these horrible things myself and having seen what happened to friends and family and pretty much every person of my ethnicity in Azerbaijan, being reduced to refugees and having to leave everything we've ever had behind, I would maybe know a thing or two about what actually happened in the region.

You seem to be doing a good job at toeing the company line though, every time the issue is brought up, Turkey flips it upside down and blames the Armenians. I'll try to keep it civil here, but next time let's try to mention things we actually know a fucking thing about.

Where have I blamed the Armenians?

All I want is for the ethnic cleansing of Turks from the Balkans, Caucasus and Armenia to be recognized worldwide to the same degree that ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Eastern Anatolia is. Otherwise the fallacious idea that Turks were the primary evil in that era will continue and that's what makes Turks most stubborn.

That's all it comes down to for me and for most Turks.

I'm an Atheist with Humanist values. I would have preferred to have lived in a multi-cultural Anatolia with a diverse population of Turks, Greeks, Armenians etc. It's a shame that Turkey has barely any Armenians or Greeks left, the country is far less interesting as a homogeneous polity than it would have been as a multi-ethnic one.

So take my word for it or not, my Anatolian heritage makes me care about every Anatolian death, regardless of ethnicity. But I repeat once again, in the arena of Turco-Armenian geopolitics on the international stage, and in the consciousness of the world, Turkish deaths are barely known about and that needs to be addressed before we can move forward with this issue.

This is the impression I get by reading his posts.

Is it really? Because nowhere have I denied the Armenian genocide.

Original.

 

[Ninja Of Chaos]

It exists. My friend's father is involved with them. It isn't very powerful, certainly not compared to the Turkish government's influence.

I mean, I figured it existed since most groups have one. I was just playing on the tone of that guy's posts. He made it seem like the Armenian lobby could snap their fingers and all would be given to them.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

Here is a copy and paste of a thread I created about this matter here on NeoGAF a while back....

Dude I would hotlink those images. Definitely NSFW.

OT, Pope's right and I'm glad he's shedding more spotlight on it.

 

[jamsy]

Otherwise the fallacious idea that Turks were the primary evil in that era will continue and that's what makes Turks most stubborn.

Sooo....you're calling the truth fallacious and that's what makes you stubborn? OK, yeah, makes sense. I'm sure your nationalism has nothing to do with it.

It's a shame that Turkey has barely any Armenians or Greeks left

Well, I guess it's what happens when you try to fucking kill them all.

 

[Trojita]

This is the first time I'm hearing about the all powerful Armenian lobby in the US. They must be THAT good if I didn't even know of their existence.

They are an effective organization especially since they are mostly centered in the 28th district of California, but they still haven't even accomplished their primary goal.

The lobby is credited with considerable success in persuading Congress to favor Armenian interests. Among its achievements are $90 million in aid annually for Armenia, the continuation of Section 907 of the Freedom Support Act blocking aid to Azerbaijan, success in stalling an arms deal with Turkey during the 1970s, and support for official US governmental recognition (in most US states) of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1921. Although federal genocide recognition is limited, 42 U.S. states recognize the genocide. Armenian receives the second highest U.S. aid per capita behind Israel, and noticeably higher than comparable countries such as Georgia.

While the Armenian lobby has been effective in a number of public relations campaigns, it has been—after more than 25 years of effort—a failure regarding their primary goal, the recognition of the Genocide of Armenians by the United States government. No matter identity of the president or the ruling political party, the Armenian lobbyists have been unable to change United States policy regarding Genocide recognition.

The Armenian lobby recently has been subdued by the Turkish and Azerbaijani lobbies. In contrast to the Armenian lobby, the Turkish lobby mostly runs through its government. A study on ethnic lobbies and their effect on U.S. foreign policy indicated that the Turkish embassy is more active than Turkish-American organizations in attempting to influence U.S. regional foreign policy. Because the Republic of Turkey cannot legally finance campaigns, it relies on contracting Washington lobbying firms and contacting members of congress and their staff. In 2008, the Turkish government spent $3,524,632 on Washington lobbying activities and contacted members of Congress 2,268 times. Utilizing top lobbying firms such as the Livingston Group, which has represented other Middle Eastern clients such as Egypt and Libya, the Turkish government gained invaluable Washington resources

 

[Stereogatari]

Well, I guess it's what happens when you try to fucking kill them all.

I can see you're a reasonable person.

I mean, I figured it existed since most groups have one. I was just playing on the tone of that guy's posts. He made it seem like the Armenian lobby could snap their fingers and all would be given to them.

No, the Armenian lobby have helped bring the ethnic cleansing of Armenians into the Western, and particularly American, consciousness. This is my point, that there isn't an equivalent Turkish lobby to bring the ethnic cleansing of Turks from the Balkans and Caucasus into the Western consciousness. So because Americans are only hearing that "Turks killed Armenians" they begin to get a warped view of how the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire went down.

Not to mention that Christian deaths strike a chord with the Christian majority West moreso than Turkish/Muslim deaths do.

 

[nynt9]

The reason Turkey flips out when it's mentioned is because of how involved Ataturk was during the genocide, and how it didn't happen under only the Ottoman Turks and/or it wasn't committed only by people who were thrown out of power or held accountable. Many of the perpetrators and masterminds of the Armenian Genocide would go onto become key members of the founding of the Turkish Republic, which consider itself a sane, republican government founded on Western and Turkish principles.

The fact that Ataturk, who is as close to a civilian god in Turkey, was involved with the Genocide and was never held accountable is a crisis of identity for Turkey. And this isn't to take away (In my perspective) from Ataturk as a leader... He's the greatest leader of any Middle Eastern country in the last 150 years, and yet, there is this stain of contributing to genocide in his past.

(FYI, definitely not arguing on behalf of Turkey here, but this is why Turkey consistently refuses to recognize the Genocide, versus say other countries guilty of Genocide [like say Nazi Germany] where those leaders were thrown out, tried, and their form of government doesn't exist anymore. The Armenian Genocide happened at the dawn of the Turkish Republic, and it's chief proponent & revered hero Kemal Ataturk was involved)

It's factually untrue that the modern Turkish government is separated from the government that committed the Genocide. Many of the fathers of modern Turkey, including Ataturk himself, were key actors in the Armenian Genocide.

Can you provide a citation for that? According to wikiquote he has not only acknowledged but also publicly condemned it several times:

It may look amazing, but the reality that what happened in 1915 was a mass murder was accepted by everybody having lived in that period, and was never the object of an argument. Of course the word soykirim [genocide] (being a term belonging to the post World War II period) was not used in those days. To describe what had happened in 1915, words such as "katliam" [massacre], "taktil" [killings], "teb'id" [taking away, expulsion, expelling], "kital" [massacre] were used. Mustafa Kemal has dozens of speeches in which he defines the treatments reserved to Armenians as "cowardice", or "barbarity", and names these treatments "massacre". In September 1919, the American General Harbord, who visited Mustafa Kemal in Sivas, says "he, too, disapproved the Armenian Massacre." According to Mustafa Kemal, "the massacre and deportation of Armenians was the work of a small committee who had seized the power."
Taner Akçam, historian and sociologist, in "1915 Legends and Realities" in the Turkish daily "Radikal" (25 May 2003) as translated by Dikran D./Anna K. Piranian

edit: also see this /r/AskHistorians post: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...t_was_kemal_ataturks_involvement_and_view_of/

The Turkish embassy in Washington DC has flyers for a "peace walk" on the 100th anniversary, by the way. iirc it's starting from the White House and ending at the embassy. For those of you who'd like to join.

 

[Trojita]

I can see you're a reasonable person.



No, the Armenian lobby have helped bring the ethnic cleansing of Armenians into the Western, and particularly American, consciousness. This is my point, that there isn't an equivalent Turkish lobby to bring the ethnic cleansing of Turks from the Balkans and Caucasus in the Western consciousness. So because Americans are only hearing that "Turks killed Armenians" they begin to get a warped view of how the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire went down.

Is there any level of Armenians killing Turks that in any way is at the same degree as the State Sponsored Genocide of the Armenian people? I understand you want more focus on what Turkish groups went through at a comparable time, but we know the Armenians were being systematically killed. The population of present day Turkey shouldn't be acting like it didn't happen.

Also you are saying that atrocities and killings of Turks weren't recorded, but how do you know that?

 

[Stereogatari]

Can you provide a citation for that? According to wikiquote:

The Turkish embassy in Washington DC has flyers for a "peace walk" on the 100th anniversary, by the way. iirc it's starting from the White House and ending at the embassy. For those of you who'd like to join.

I'm not surprised to read that. It would have been extraordinarily out of character for Ataturk to have said and done otherwise.

Is there any level of Armenians killing Turks that in any way is at the same degree as the State Sponsored Genocide of the Armenian people? I understand you want more focus on what Turkish groups went through at a comparable time, but we know the Armenians were being systematically killed. The population of present day Turkey shouldn't be acting like it didn't happen.

No there wasn't. I think the ethnic cleansing of Turks from the Balkans was comparable to what the Armenians went through, but not the Armenian on Turkish violence no. Less Turks lived in modern day Armenia than the number of Armenians that lived in modern day Turkey, so it cannot be compared with what the Armenians went through.

 

[jamsy]

I can see you're a reasonable person.

I'm sorry, did I state something "fallacious" again?

 

[Jasper]

Poor baby Turkey is now threatening the Vatican (just like they ALWAYS stoop to threats and blackmail regarding the Armenian Genocide).....

Turkey mulls further measures against Vatican as envoy returns to Ankara

Turkey’s ambassador to the Vatican, Mehmet Paçacı returned to Ankara late April 12, after Ankara’s strong reaction against Pope Francis’ description of the mass killings of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire as genocide.

“The steps that will be taken [against the Vatican] will be made public following our consultations,” Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told reporters on April 13 at a press conference in Mongolia.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...kara-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=80966&NewsCatID=510

 

[hipbabboom]

pope should shut up when it comes to nazis and the church. They weren't innocent and why we let them pretend they are is beyond me.

This bullshit logic flying always amazes me. Because you've done dirt, don't you dare call me out for doing dirt.

How about everyone call out everyone's dirt rather then people shutting up about it like you and the Turkish government wish to do? It only benefits the people doing dirt to bury the truth.

 

[Stereogatari]

I'm sorry, did I state something "fallacious" again?

Yes, you have a dehumanized image of me just because I'm a Turk. I make a post expressing how I feel about Anatolian identity and how I wish it wasn't based on ethnicity but on geography and common ties between different ethnic groups. Then you proceed to ignore all that and make a low blow jab about how I shouldn't have killed all the Greeks and Armenians if I wanted a nice multi-ethnic Anatolia. Yet you have the gall to accuse me of blind nationalism.

 

[Kayo-kun]

I'm wondering when the genocides commited against Turks and other Muslim peoples in the Balkans and Caucasus will be recognised? This debate is one sided. Turks, Azeris, Kurds and Caucasian Muslims used to live in the area that is now modern day Armenia. What happened to them? Will the Pope and other people who are keen on recognising the Armenian Genocide bring this up as well?

That's what Turks are upset about. That the onus is on us to apologise for an atrocity from our side, but you rarely if ever see the opposite pressure. On top of this it's only Turks who are made to apologise, yet a lot of the places the Armenians were ethnically cleansed from are Kurdish majority lands today. Why not the same pressure on Kurds to apologise?

I recognise that Armenians were ethnically cleansed from parts of Turkey, but I don't think it was a genocide aimed at wiping out the entire Armenian race, and I feel that the Turks (and other Muslims) that were cleansed from the Balkans, Caucasus and Armenia are not remembered with the same sympathy that the Armenians get.

Sorry for being cynical but I believe it is to do with the fact that the most powerful nations in the world during the late Ottoman Era were Christian majority countries, so they felt more sympathy for the Armenians and therefore recorded atrocities Turks committed with more veracity than the atrocities committed on Turks. This implicit bias has spread to this day, fueled by the fact there is a strong Armenian lobby in America and Europe, when Turks unfortunately haven't coalesced to pressure international governments to recognise the atrocities committed to our peoples.

Adding to this is the fact that the modern Republic of Turkey is a polity that was formed in opposition to the Ottoman Government, and it was under Ottoman jurisdiction that the Armenians were killed. The issue is far more complicated than simply "why won't they just apologise?".



And the genocides against Balkan Turks and Caucasus Turks.



It isn't glossed over, it's a heavy focus since it's a source of national pride that we repelled the British invasion. Many folk songs, poems, films and plays are centered around the events of the attempted British invasion of Turkey.

This guy gets it. I'm all in for recognizing the genocides? massacres? whatever you want to call them, during the beginning of the 1900s. But it's bullshit when you recognize that Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christian groups getting killed, and completely ignore the Caucasians, Turks, and other Muslim groups that were slaughtered during the same time. People don't even bother talking about it, since apparently those groups aren't as important as the previous mentioned ones.

Using 100 year old history in politics today is just out of place in my opinion. Let the historians do that part.

 

[patapuf]

This guy gets it. I'm all in for recognizing the genocides? massacres? whatever you want to call them, during the beginning of the 1900s. But it's bullshit when you recognize that Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christian groups getting killed, and completely ignore the Caucasians, Turks, and other Muslim groups that were slaughtered during the same time. People don't even bother talking about it, since apparently those groups aren't as important as the previous mentioned ones.

Using 100 year old history in politics today is just out of place in my opinion. Let the historians do that part.

Which government actively denies that this happened and causes diplomatic incidents over the mere mention that they happened?

 

[jamsy]

Then you proceed to ignore all that and make a low blow jab about how I shouldn't have killed all the Greeks and Armenians if I wanted a nice multi-ethnic Anatolia. Yet you have the gall to accuse me of blind nationalism.

You personally? No. You as in your people, your country? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, that is what happened, no matter how hard you try and bury your head in the sand.

BTW, in English we use "you" for both singular and plural instances.

 

[Trojita]

Using 100 year old history in politics today is just out of place in my opinion. Let the historians do that part.

That's a really dumb statement.

 

[Stereogatari]

You personally? No. You as in your people, your country? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, that is what happened, no matter how hard you try and bury your head in the sand.

BTW, in English we use "you" for both singular and plural instances.

I'm bilingual since birth, I misunderstood your use of "you" and took it the wrong way.

Where did I bury my head in the sand? I'm not an Armenian genocide denier. What I am concerned about is the ignorance people have of the Turkish genocides that occurred in the same era, since (and I repeat myself again) it leads to a black and white of that era as Turks being the perpetrators and Christians being the victims, when humans were the perpetrators and humans were the victims.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Using 100 year old history in politics today is just out of place in my opinion. Let the historians do that part.

That's a really dumb statement.

It's a statement that is pretty much word to word taken straight out of Erdogan's mouth, it's amazing how tight nit and loyal Turkish nationalism is.

 

[patapuf]

I'm bilingual since birth, I misunderstood your use of "you" and took it the wrong way.

Where did I bury my head in the sand? I'm not an Armenian genocide denier. What I am concerned about is the ignorance people have of the Turkish genocides that occurred in the same era, since (and I repeat myself again) it leads to a black and white of that era as Turks being the perpetrators and Christians being the victims, when humans were the perpetrators and humans were the victims.

If the Turks bothered to aknowledge what happened (and helped the decendents of victims) this kind of narrative wouldn't be an issue.

The world forgave germany and other countries because they owned to their mistakes.

When you actively deny the atrocities you commited you end up in a situation like Japan and southeast asia. Or modern day turkey that is constantly afraid their state may fall apart because kurds, armenians and others don't feel strong ties to the country.

 

[Stereogatari]

It's a statement that is pretty much word to word taken straight out of Erdogan's mouth, it's amazing how tight nit and loyal Turkish nationalism is.

He's saying that bringing the genocide into the realm of politics is wrong because that way you have people with vested interests supporting one narrative or another, while ignoring or downplaying other narratives, whereas historians are (presumed to be) neutral and trying to paint an accurate picture of the past as possible since there's no vested interest beyond veracity.

If the Turks bothered to aknowledge what happened (and helped the decendents of victims) this kind of narrative wouldn't be an issue.

The world forgave germany and oder countries because they owned to their mistakes.

When you actively deny the atrocities you commited you end up in a situation like Japan and southeast asia. Or modern day turkey that is constantly afraid their state may fall apart because kurds, armenians and others don't feel strong ties to the country.

I personally want the genocide to be recognized by Turkey. Nothing is to be gained by denying what they know is the truth.

 

[jamsy]

What I am concerned about is the ignorance people have of the Turkish genocides that occurred in the same era, since (and I repeat myself again) it leads to a black and white of that era as Turks being the perpetrators and Christians being the victims, when humans were the perpetrators and humans were the victims.

Except this is the fucking truth. Full stop. Turks need to stop victimizing themselves and making up phantom "genocides'' against them as a pitiful attempt to hide and disguise their ugly history.

It's a statement that is pretty much word to word taken straight out of Erdogan's mouth, it's amazing how tight nit and loyal Turkish nationalism is.

Yup, it amazes me how pretty much every Turk I've ever come upon has the same point of view/opinion on the matter. You really can't argue with people like that.

 

[Stereogatari]

Except this is the fucking truth. Full stop. Turks need to stop victimizing themselves and making up phantom "genocides'' against them as a pitiful attempt to hide and disguise their ugly history.

I'm a Turk that accepts the genocide of Armenians from Anatolia and you're an Armenian that is denying the genocide of Turks from the Balkans and Caucasus. So you've proven the point that all of this bullshit isn't about the greater good of humanity, it's about nationalism. Armenians over-stating Armenian deaths and downplaying Turkish deaths, and Turks doing vice versa. Though I'm personally not downplaying Armenian deaths at all, and have maintained throughout my posts in this thread that I accept the genocide of Armenians from Anatolia happened.

The number of Turks that lived in the Balkans and Caucasus was comparable to the number of Armenians that lived in Anatolia. I find it astonishing that you are so vocal about the Armenian genocide, but that you deny the genocide that happened to Turks.

Yup, it amazes me how pretty much every Turk I've ever come upon has the same point of view/opinion on the matter. You really can't argue with people like that.

Nor with people like yourself who are so blinded by their Tucophobic sentiments that they label genocides of Turks as "phantom" genocides, but will immediately start fuming if anyone says anything remotely similar about the Armenian genocide. You are a hypocrite.

 

[dakun]

yeah my parents are Turkish and pretty much everyone in my family denies it's a genocide.. the most they will accept is that we killed them and they killed us and if Turkish murders were genocide so was theirs..

i really don't get it, and while i don't consider myself a Turk (born in Germany and i consider myself as such) for what it's worth i accept the fact of the genocide against Armenians.

What i wonder is how much politics is going on there? What would be the cost for the Turkish government if they accepted the genocide? Are they at risk at having to pay in money or even land?

 

[Stereogatari]

What i wonder is how much politics is going on there? What would be the cost for the Turkish government if they accepted the genocide? Are they at risk at having to pay in money or even land?

Money probably yes, I sincerely doubt land because that would surely trigger a war if any attempts are made by Armenia to annex Turkish territory.

Also you are a rarity, one doesn't meet many Gurbetci Turks that don't consider themselves Turkish.

 

[nynt9]

Yup, it amazes me how pretty much every Turk I've ever come upon has the same point of view/opinion on the matter. You really can't argue with people like that.

I mean, that's what people are taught in schools and is regurgitated in media. It's not really a malicious intent as much as ignorance that self-perpetuates. And the mis-education is so strong that it's hard to educate some people.