Dynamite Shikoku
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I'd be cool with that
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Twin Peaks Season 3 OT |25 Years Later...It Is Happening Again
- Thread starter Sumio Mondo
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I'd be cool with that
mariachi507
Member
Aside from the main Trinity plot, I remember thinking the rest of the season was trash and that the decline had already started in the regard.
The season is about Twin Peaks
Maybe not in the way you want it to, but Twin Peaks season three is definitely about Twin Peaks.
Edit: I sound like an asshole. For the record, it's okay that you dislike the direction, I just wanted to refute the notion Twin Peaks suddenly isn't itself anymore.
Finally finished my rewatch of the original series and MAN did I forgot how bad the episodes get after Episode 9. I'd seriously be interested in knowing just how different a Season 3 would've been from The Return though or hell, even the two other planned films Lynch wanted to do after FWWM.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
mariachi507
Member
This thread goes in circles often, there's been plenty of discussion about what Twin Peaks is. I'm not picking on you though, you don't have to like the new season. The only topic I'll argue about is claiming that the new show is Twin Peaks in name only. If there is one show that can't be limited to a specific tone or style it's always been this one.
I assume that when you think about Twin Peaks you mainly conjure the vibe and tone of the first eight episodes. Hell, I believe most people do. That's when the show was at its heights as a phenomenon. The show evolved in its original run though. At the start of season 2 up to the time the killer was revealed changes had already been made in its scope bringing the supernatural elements to the forefront and more. Unfortunately afterwards, with the main creative force checked out, the writers tried to keep that version going and turned the show into a parody of itself. As a result, it had to evolve further.
Luckily Lynch returned in the series finale (Frost was already back) to flip the script and changed the idea of Twin Peaks forever. It wasn't about a murder mystery and its effects on a small town anymore. Where many of the later season 2 episodes had been following a checklist of fan-service and rules, the finale went by its own. This even applies to the way it was shot with uncomfortable long takes as an example which have since been carried on to this season.
Twin Peaks exist as a creative outlet for David Lynch and Mark Frost and it's at its most successful when they decide to experiment and push the idea of what Twin Peaks is further than they have before. This is more evident by moving on to Lynch's Fire Walk With Me. Try watching one of the first eight episodes and then follow it up with "Lonely Souls", the season 2 finale, or FWWM and tell me which one is the most Twin Peaks like. The answer is that all of them are. The same applies to season 3.
Lynch and Frost could have brought us back to this world with another murder mystery or some sort of villain like Windom Earle. The problem is that the mystery of Laura Palmer's murder has already been done, and any attempt to reclaim that magic would have been lazy and out of character for the creators. It's been said a lot that the show serves as the culmination of Lynch's output as a director at that time. It's more than that though. It also serves as the bridge to the next step of his creative career. Blue Velvet gave us Twin Peaks, which in turn pushed Lynch to Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive. Season 3 is the result of all of his previous work including Inland Empire.
It's perfectly reasonable that you wouldn't like the direction though. It's not what you wanted for a revival and that's ok. However, it is still Twin Peaks.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Is there any line that you would have drawn at which point Twin Peaks is no longer Twin Peaks? Or is it just "Lynch+'Twin Peaks' = Twin Peaks"?
Add Frost in there, and that would be the case for me.
This debate about what is and isn't Twin Peaks is good. I am of the opinion that whatever Lynch and Frost call Twin Peaks, IS Twin Peaks.
However equally people are fine to view it and qualify it as not why they expected nor wanted as Twin Peaks.
As mentioned a few pages back, imagine after 30 odd years of waiting for Luke Skywalker to return to the big screen if Episode VIII happened in a Vegas style place on Coruscant, where Luke was a vegetable and he spent 10 - 15 minutes walking around with the the force making him Mr Jackpots, mimicking every word Rey said to him. If it had robots sweeping the floor for two minutes with nothing happening. If he didn't really become remotely a literate guy again until the last 2 minutes of IX.
It's Star Wars because that's the production, but doesn't really follow what made the character likeable and I certainly wouldn't blame many audiences tuning out. It's not even willing or wanting him to dish out some Star Wars staples like mentioning Vader or whipping out a light sabre - it's just a very, very different character to empathise with.
Fake edit: Despite writing this, I'm now sad we won't get a Hamill feeding a slot machine shouting "HelllllLLLoooo"
However equally people are fine to view it and qualify it as not why they expected nor wanted as Twin Peaks.
As mentioned a few pages back, imagine after 30 odd years of waiting for Luke Skywalker to return to the big screen if Episode VIII happened in a Vegas style place on Coruscant, where Luke was a vegetable and he spent 10 - 15 minutes walking around with the the force making him Mr Jackpots, mimicking every word Rey said to him. If it had robots sweeping the floor for two minutes with nothing happening. If he didn't really become remotely a literate guy again until the last 2 minutes of IX.
It's Star Wars because that's the production, but doesn't really follow what made the character likeable and I certainly wouldn't blame many audiences tuning out. It's not even willing or wanting him to dish out some Star Wars staples like mentioning Vader or whipping out a light sabre - it's just a very, very different character to empathise with.
Fake edit: Despite writing this, I'm now sad we won't get a Hamill feeding a slot machine shouting "HelllllLLLoooo"
Rien
Jelly Belly
Six Feet Under.
Man i love SFU
mariachi507
Member
Lynch with Frost as well. Season 3's ability to build off of what came before while pushing in new directions but still maintaining the type of atmosphere Twin Peaks is known for. Along with the dialogue, direction, music, humor, horror, etc.
It's like there's a blender with a certain set of ingredients that also contain their own unique flavor. It's just that now there are some new ingredients thrown in while a few mainstays aren't as prevalent as they used to be. It's still Twin Peaks, it just has a bit of a different taste than it used to.
I understand that some don't like the new taste, but just keeping the same old ingredients would have been worse IMO. That recipe has already been done and will not ever be as exciting as it was on the first taste.
Nekketsu Kõha
Banned
Last episode of this show is gonna create a meltdown on the internet isn't it?
Nekketsu Kõha
Banned
Lol I'm not even watching it anymore but I will bring the popcorn for the finale and live thread.I'm guessing the live airing of the finale will push us to OT2 by itself
Some people stopped watching???
Herr Schwarz
Banned
Long live Dougie Jones.
When we all rewatch this 5 years later I guarantee the Dougie Jones stuff will hold up a lot better than the rest.
I cannot stress how poorly edited this all seems. Feels like I'm watching the extended cut.
When we all rewatch this 5 years later I guarantee the Dougie Jones stuff will hold up a lot better than the rest.
I cannot stress how poorly edited this all seems. Feels like I'm watching the extended cut.
Nekketsu Kõha
Banned
I expect a lot of shouting matches between people who stuck with it and people who dropped the show with lots of "I told ya!!" Regardless if it was good or bad. Not to mention all the people creating elaborate theories and stuff.
Don't worry I will bring enough popcorn for everybody
You're more than welcome to rewatch season 1 and 2 as many times as you like if you want the same thing as before.
giancarlo123x
Banned
I can't wait for this to be over, I'll probably buy this season on bluray then watch the entire series from beginning to end to see the evolution of it all.
Airola
Member
But the thing is that after they had filmed the new season but before it aired, Lynch made a comment in which he said what in his opinion is Twin Peaks. He said season 2 went too silly and to him the pilot episode is Twin Peaks.
So when Lynch says the original pilot is Twin Peaks to him and people begin anticipating the new show it's not that odd that when the series hasn't really yet been at all like the original pilot, and in fact so much different that people have been theorizing that the show is about it slowly becoming what Twin Peaks used to be, people would be disappointed at how it doesn't feel like Twin Peaks.
I mean, the expectations for the show being at least a bit like the original show were put pretty high by Lynch himself.
Now, to be fair, when he said how the pilot is Twin Peaks to him he also mentioned how different directors and writers brought in different things to the series and it made those things be Twin Peaks too.
So basically he thinks everything in S1 an S2, warts and all, is what Twin Peaks is, but still to him Twin Peaks really is the pilot. So when all of the episodes have been written and directed by him, it's no wonder people would expect there to be certain type of things to experience through the new season.
Of course I wouldn't ever say this new season isn't Twin Peaks, because it obviously is no matter what it would be. It could be like the latest Transformers and it still would be Twin Peaks because its name is Twin Peaks and it's official canon. But I'm not surprised if some people think differently about it.
This is what somewhat irritates me in this types of discussions.
You basically say that whatever people would've wanted would've been worse while you really can't know that. This show could've been Cooper eating pie and it all being some pastiche of the original, but we can't know if that would've been good or bad. That could've been the biggest and the best pastiche ever made by anyone and it could've been something that completely redefines what pastiches are.
But as you say this would've been worse than what it is now you are basically just saying people's expectations are bad, no matter what they are. Sure, there is the 'IMO' there, but still.
EDIT:
And for the record, while at times I'm sort of an apologist for the underdogs who don't like the show, I personally love/like the new season. I have my qualms with it sometimes but I'm very excited it exists and I've loved watching most of it. But I think people should be able to criticize it even if it's harsh criticism.
So, relying onnostalgia and not going where the story dictates?
Twin Peaks hasn't grown far beyond that. Look at Fire Walk With Me. Much of it took outside of Twin Peaks.
You really think these poorly directed bland fan films are better directed and written than say episode 8 of this season? REALLY?
The Elite
BOSS
Episode 8 felt a bit Eva.
And Eva's no stranger to incredibly drawn out scenes.
The Elite
BOSS
Lynch would kill in the anime market.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Lynch managed to get some traction in the Japanese market with Twin Peaks and some other works of his, so they would maybe even be interested. Plus a few anime works that have been inspired by Lynch, like Perfect Blue, Paranoia Agent, there's a direct reference to Twin Peaks in Soul Eater (character dreaming goes to a red room with striped floors with a dancing dwarf), and some other things.
The Elite
BOSS
I'd be curious to see what Mr. C's final form is.
Twin Peaks also influenced Link's Awakening and obviously Deadly Premonition.
But also i would not be shocked if Suda51's work draws from Lynch as well but i havent done the homework to see if there's anything to that
Kunihiko Ikuhara of Utena fame is very inspired by Lynch, and his Mawaru Penguindrum is one of the only shows that can match the 'what is going on/anything can happen' madness of the new Twin Peaks. Let's hope this show doesn't fumble the lanling like that one did.
For some reason my mind went to a Beelzebub looking creature first.
The Elite
BOSS
The Velvet Room in Persona is almost straight from Twin Peaks in its early iterations.
uncelestial
Member
Everyone is being so mean to this post for no reason. Perhaps there should be a little reflection on why this season isn't being received with the viewership, acclaim, our love from fans that the original was. It isn't perfect, is it? It doesn't feel a little farcical to put Cooper and pine trees on the face of all of the promo media and deliver 12 hours and counting of Dougie, set in Vegas? We're well past the majority of this season being aired. The criticism is fair and not nearly as vapid as some of you are acting.
It isn't like the original. It doesn't look like it or sound like it or feel like it and it doesn't have the same protagonist. That's okay, but acting like people are simpletons for being disappointed and saying "whatever Lynch says" isn't some kind of evolved form of thinking. In fact that is far more vapid and fanboyistic than Maligna's sentiment, which at least involves some critical thought and a comparative statement.
I'm enjoying watching and I'm going to see this to the end and all, but I'm really not impressed with the Star Wars Prequel logic that because the original auteur is involved, old fans need to shut up. I completely understand the disappointment, even as I enjoy the new episodes.
I feel like this is a strange criticism to raise now given that the last several episodes have been increasingly been more involved in Twin Peaks, both the people living there and the town itself.
This season seems pretty widely acclaimed though? Even the last episode, which has been dumped on pretty hard by this thread, looks to have gotten marks across the board.
It goes both ways. There's has been plenty of people in this thread saying folks that enjoy it are pretentious and a myriad of other things. So how about everyone just relax and not sling mud needlessly.
Also I have to hard disagree that it's not like the original or it's not critically acclaimed, the latter is just false. It's funny, it's weird, there's surrealism, there's melodrama, it's scary as fuck, and most important of all there are a host of characters I love. It's the same core elements as what I enjoyed about the original two seasons. This video essay sums it up very well. It does everything I loved about the original show without being a retread.
As for viewership numbers: Twin Peaks was a network TV show in 1990 on CBS, Twin Peaks: The Return is on Showtime in 2017. Completely different times and completely different markets. This keeps coming up as a slant against the new season despite the fact that there's a lot more to it than just pure numbers.
The original Twin Peaks isn't perfect either. I've said it over and over again but there's about 8 episodes in a row in the second season that are borderline unwatchable.
Vyse The Legend
Member
I could not have said it better myself.
I did appreciate the false equivalency to the Star Wars prequels, though. That made me chuckle.
Oh, not to be terribly pedantic, but we've had 9 episodes of Dougie. Cooper was in the first 3 episodes, just trapped in the Lodge.
mariachi507
Member
I said it's fully within anyone's rights to not like the show multiple times. Of course it should be open to criticism and I have criticism for it myself. My issue is accusing it of not being Twin Peaks. Lynch's answer seems to be for the question "at its core, what is Twin Peaks?". Because I guarantee Lynch considers the season 2 finale and FWWM essentially Twin Peaks as well. There isn't a single property that should be immune to criticism either.
I'm not sure why you have issues with my having the opinion about how "the show would have been worse if it was more of a copy of the original". Though that comment has led to do about the quality of what the show would've been vs. being disappointed that two creators who have never been known to "rest on their laurels" suddenly decided to. Focusing on Twin Peaks alone, it's a property that has existed as an outlet of experimentation by its creators. I would rather see Lynch and Frost go for a grand slam than give us something akin to The Force Awakens, and hell I like The Force Awakens. I might've liked that version of Twin Peaks, it's just that I have a preference.
Everybody else can have theirs, I've got no issue with that and I'm not being mean or picking on them for that. My issue comes from labeling the new season as "not Twin Peaks".
Oh, and Episode 1 is still Star Wars, it's just a shitty version of it.
Maybe I'm just a Twin Peaks apologist but I view reception of the various iterations of Twin Peaks similarly to a band that has a huge hit debut album and instead of doing the same type of thing again, they want to evolve and try new things and fans turn on them for it. Eventually the perception changes with time, 25 years in this case, to where the body of work grows on people over time. That said, given their history, I don't know why some people are surprised that The Return doesn't feel exactly like original Twin Peaks anymore. If the citizens of Twin Peaks were still up to the same shenanigans 25 years later, that would have been really depressing to me.
I'm not immune to it myself. I definitely felt the difference in the first 17 episodes versus the final 13 on first viewing, and I absolutely hated FWWM the first time I watched it. I hated that Cooper was barely in it, I hated that half the movie was this new asshole FBI guy and this new town I didn't give a shit about, and how we see almost none of the other people of Twin Peaks in FWWM. Over time though, I began to appreciate the latter third of the show, especially the Window Earle/Lodge stuff, and the first half of FWWM that's mostly Chet Desmond is now easily my favorite part of that movie. I'm glad the show has evolved because if it was just 50 hours of Cooper solving murders, I probably would have checked out. Hell, I know I would have. That's essentially what The Killing was and I only watched the third and fourth seasons of that show out of habit.
I'm not immune to it myself. I definitely felt the difference in the first 17 episodes versus the final 13 on first viewing, and I absolutely hated FWWM the first time I watched it. I hated that Cooper was barely in it, I hated that half the movie was this new asshole FBI guy and this new town I didn't give a shit about, and how we see almost none of the other people of Twin Peaks in FWWM. Over time though, I began to appreciate the latter third of the show, especially the Window Earle/Lodge stuff, and the first half of FWWM that's mostly Chet Desmond is now easily my favorite part of that movie. I'm glad the show has evolved because if it was just 50 hours of Cooper solving murders, I probably would have checked out. Hell, I know I would have. That's essentially what The Killing was and I only watched the third and fourth seasons of that show out of habit.
sackboy2197
Member
We need to get Lynch to work with Anno on 3.0+1.0
uncelestial
Member
It has a 74% on Metacritic to Season 1's 96%. Season 2 doesn't have an MC score but it's viewer score is higher. 74% is a fine score, but as I said, it isn't as highly regarded.
It doesn't seem like you're addressing my point re: the differences between the original and Return. It's good enough for you and me that it only has "core elements." It's pretty radically different though. That's not a bad thing, but it's pretty easy to see why fans would be disappointed or even just react more mildly. I just watched the entire original series; I don't really care what that video essay has to say.
Viewership: I realize it's on Showtime, but it's not even a hit by Showtime standards. Shows -- on Showtime -- that didn't have annual festivals dedicated to them, or a beloved director working on a new season of a show that tens of millions of people watched, are doing better. I don't particularly care about viewership, but let's at least acknowledge that the appeal of TP3 is going to be less broad for a number of reasons. I pretty much think that makes it cooler, but I also accept that comes with a downside for many fans. I don't see the point in your defensiveness here. Regardless of raw numbers, Showtime probably feels good about the whole endeavor, because they got a lot of new subscribers out of it, me included
We certainly agree about the flaws of Season 2, but that's also beside the point.
Fenderputty
Banned
What a fuckin' stupid post. I'm surprised your neck muscles can carry around your massive head.
Liking the show doesn't make one pretentious. The post I quoted does. Fuck ... I'm enjoying the show and have levied the same complaint.
Twin Peaks aside, I don't think it's really fair to compare Metacritic (or for that matter, Rottentomatoes) reviews/scores of something from 25 years ago to something released today. For one thing, there are going to be more reviews to aggregate today than back then.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
The Metacritic comparison is beyond biased though, like right now Season 3 isn't even finished airing, meanwhile the original season is over 25 years old, and all the people who reviewed Twin Peaks for Metacritic are people who wanted to review the original series probably out of a love for it, a number of the reviews are from since the series originally aired. Time also generally works in favor for Lynch's works, IE the original reception to Twin Peaks especially going into its second season had a lot of negativity and loss of interest, but it's over time become more liked I would say in its cult status and appreciation for it. Fire Walk With Me had terrible reception originally but more people have been warming up to it for a while now. Various other Lynch films have been through the same thing. Its also to note the Season 3 critic average is from almost twice as many sources as the original season.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Fire Walk With Me has a 28 on Metacritic FYI, I guess it's garbage.
What is wrong with people in here? "I'm surprised your neck muscles can carry around your massive head" Chill out it's just a show. If people are getting so upset on either side about liking it or not maybe just check out of this thread. Many of you are acting like the lady in the car in the last episode 😁
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
"Lucy, put Harry on the horn."
-honks profoundly and repetitively-
When I originally watched Twin Peaks for the first time (for me I watched it in 2010), I was apprehensive to watch Fire Walk With Me because of the terrible word about it online, even recall reading some people saying to skip it. But I loved the series so I decided to watch FWWM, and... I never understood the hate. I actually liked the film quite a bit. I think FWWM suffered in a similar way that Season 3 of TP suffers some from, which is expectations. I know that sounds weird but I don't think FWWM or Season 3 of TP gives what some people want specifically so some people get angry increasingly that this is what they get instead of what they want from the original series. Also FWWM suffered some it's hard to follow if you don't remember some things about the original series, and there wasn't big online resources to look up particular points of the series back in the day either.
I just am in a weird spot with Twin Peaks. I love the original series, FWWM, and the new season. And not even for entirely different reasons, and to make it better/worse I even like the Season 2 lull more than most even if I actually do dislike some of the subplots in it. I can see some elements from the original series obviously aren't the focus in then ew season, but I'd argue the new season is incredibly Twin Peaks. I can't explain it wholly in words, but there's something that's present in the original series, FWWM, and The Return that is very specifically TP to me and is present in all three despite all three also being quite different.
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