I disagree actually. Putting guns in a deep fryer felt like a very weird quirky Coop thing to do. I think people just overthink that whole scene. I don't see any reason to believe he became a fusion of Cooper and Mr. C. I think he just knew something strange was happening and was in serious mode. Even in the original series we saw Cooper act cold and serious in certain situations.
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
I disagree actually. Putting guns in a deep fryer felt like a very weird quirky Coop thing to do. I think people just overthink that whole scene. I don't see any reason to believe he became a fusion of Cooper and Mr. C. I think he just knew something strange was happening and was in serious mode. Even in the original series we saw Cooper act cold and serious in certain situations.
Sora the Cat
Member
I think the whole Richard-Linda part of episode 18 takes place after the first episode, then Laura wakes up and Cooper goes on his journey back and meets Diane again, who helps him get back to the world as Dougie. The actual ending is episode 17.
Does anyone else think this could be possible?
Edit: To add to this, I think the scene we see in episode 2, 15 minutes in, is what comes after the ending of episode 18.
Does anyone else think this could be possible?
Edit: To add to this, I think the scene we see in episode 2, 15 minutes in, is what comes after the ending of episode 18.
Dougie wasn't created yet when he was on the phone asking for coffee. He was created after Mr. C was back in the lodge burning. I'm not sure I buy into any coffee theory though, he had coffee in the car with the Mitchum brothers in episode 16 without getting crazy over it.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the "Cooper is now nonexistent" theory, though that's partly because I don't believe they're in Laura's dream in Part 18. The diner being named Judy's and the presence of white horses makes me think Laura is in Judy's pocket dimension instead. There would be no reason for Laura to incorporate those into a dream she's having.
And even if it was a dream, I think Cooper would just default out into one of the Lodges upon the dream's destruction or, in the worst case, become a timeless entity like Jeffries became.
Intheflorsh
Banned
On the Twin Peaks: The Return podcast they mentioned another clue that confirms Audrey and Laura are stuck in the same situation: Laura asks if she'll need her coat before she leaves her house.
The whole Audrey plot seems like it was a warm up for the final episode.
The whole Audrey plot seems like it was a warm up for the final episode.
A small rebuttal to this is the shot of the RR Diner in episode 18. It looks as it did originally, AKA how Laura would have remembered it. There's no real reason for it to look like that if it was a creation of Judy.
Wouldn't you say that Judy would want to make sure Laura never realizes she's in a construct though? By making the diner look familiar to how it would to Laura, it prevents her from starting to doubt the world she's in.
That's why I also believe it's Cooper asking "What year is this?" at the end which brings about Laura's revelation. She thinks about it and doesn't actually know what year it is. Sarah's voice calling for Laura is all her memories flooding back.
That's a nice catch. Audrey wanting to stay in her dream continually delays the inevitable. Laura's like, " I got several coats. Let's get the fuck out of dodge."
Corpsepyre
Banned
What do you think it means, and where are they 'stuck' ?
Did Judy trap Audrey and Laura in some sorta reality dream? Maybe season 4 could focus more on Audrey and Laura as a result, and that's why they weren't present in this season much at all.
Yeah I thought of that possibility even as I was typing haha. I do think Laura is in a dream, but think it is probably a construct of Judy. I think the term dream is not quite what we typically think of, and much more abstract than just something we have when asleep.
Strangely enough my favourite game deals with this concept too, Bloodborne, and the idea of a dream world being a real tangible place that can maybe be accessed via a dreamer, but not necessarily created solely by them. It's more an awakening within ourselves facilitated by our perception of the world around us.
plagiarize
Banned
A thought I had earlier today... living inside a dream is probably very different to dreaming.
Indeed, I feel like the Twin Peaks version of a dream is something you can have an awakening from on a metaphysical level, rather than a place you go to when you sleep.
Yeah but we really don't know for sure what that "situation" is just yet.
I don't think it's explicitly, "Everything is a dream! It's all fake!" or anything like that like some people are suggesting. I think it more or less lines up with David Lynch's take on reality, in which he's stated in interviews that he believes reality is a dream and one day we'll "wake up," which is just a fancy way of saying "reality is perception" which is the truest statement in existence.
What I think is that Laura, Audrey, Diane, and Cooper are all kind of stuck in an interdimensional state of existence due to their relationship to the Black Lodge. We know, for example, that when someone puts on the Owl Ring AFTER interacting with the Black Lodge in some capacity, they become immediately intertwined with it. Laura put on the Owl Ring, and she became a permanent fixture of the Black Lodge afterwards. Dougie Jones wore the ring, and was also able to transport to the Black Lodge through the electrical outlet. Ray put on the ring, and after his death he was sent to the Black Lodge. Cooper also used the ring to send his dead doppelganger to the Black Lodge as well.
I think the Owl Ring serves two purposes: 1. Protection from Judy. (notice how the Judy symbol is essentially the upside down version of the Owl Ring symbol) 2. Makes you a permanent fixture of the Black Lodge.
I think however Cooper only realized a small extent of what it could do. Cooper's Doppelganger died, and in turn when Cooper came back OUT of the Black Lodge, he got his Doppelganger back to the original body. This is why Cooper came out so stoic and serious with traits of Mr. C and traits of Dale Cooper combined. Cooper became "complete" as a human being, beating the "test" that the Black Lodge gave him. Remember, Hawk said this, "My people believe that the White Lodge is a place where the spirits that rule man and nature reside. There is also a legend of a place called the Black Lodge. The shadow self of the White Lodge. Legend says that every spirit must pass through there on the way to perfection. There, you will meet your own shadow self. My people call it The Dweller on the Threshold. "
Cooper conquered his Doppelganger, and therefor he was given full freedom to accomplish his goal: To make the Laura Palmer case right and finally solve it. With Cooper's newfound enlightenment, he decided to try changing the past...but Judy didn't like that, and snatched Laura away from him (to what extent, however, is unknown).
Now it's unknown if Cooper actually accomplished creating another reality or timeline or anything of that sort, but I believe Cooper THOUGHT he did. Remember, the opening scene in the final episode showed Dougie Jones being recreated and returned to his family. This means that we're still in the main reality of the series, since Dougie Jones wouldn't need to exist in the first place if Laura Palmer never died. I think what happened here is that Cooper cam back to the main reality from the Lodge and was told specifically by Leland to FIND LAURA.
He exists the Black Lodge, meets up with Diane, and goes to the point where he believes he can access Laura Palmer in the "new" reality he thought he created. However, when he goes there...things aren't what he was expecting. Laura Palmer isn't Laura Palmer anymore, and he isn't Dale Cooper. What he entered was another reality that Laura Palmer was placed in by Judy, rather than the reality he thought he created to had Laura Palmer in it.
I think more or less the same is happening to Audrey and Diane. There's three parts:
Audrey - White-Room Audrey (alternate reality) - American Girl? aka the TRUE Audrey - Twin Peaks Audrey (Tulpa?)
Diane - Linda (alternate reality) - Naido aka the TRUE Diane - Twin Peaks Diane (Tulpa)
This is why Audrey is constantly saying how she doesn't feel like herself, just like Diane did in Episode 16. That's because the Audrey we see in the series isn't Audrey, she's Audrey's Tulpa, created by Mr. C when he raped her. I also believe Audrey and Diane both received Owl Rings as well and were sent to a place where Judy can't get to them in that spaceship (Judy aka "Mother" can bang on the door, but it never opens).
Also, quoting Gordon's dream scene, "We are like the dreamer who dreams and then lives inside the dream. Who is the dreamer?" I think what this by and large means is that people that are intertwined with the Black Lodge in some capacity are able to manipulate and change reality. This is how Cooper was able to change the past, albeit negated by Judy, Cooper still had access to such things. Audrey is the dreamer, Laura is the dreamer, Cooper is the dreamer, everyone is the dreamer because reality is a dream. Just when you access the underbelly of reality aka the Black Lodge, you have more power over that dream. What Cooper is doing in his journey is whatever lucid dreaming in reality is. Cooper beats the badguy in the end due to various circumstances, successfully conquers his Doppelganger, so what went wrong?
What went wrong is that Cooper overstepped his boundaries by challenging Judy at her own games. Then, he was sent to a reality that he has no stake in. Cooper is no longer Cooper, but instead is "Richard" who as far as we know has no association with the Black Lodge or anything of that sort. Cooper thought he had control because he was enlightened, but he set himself up by sending himself to a reality where he and Laura Palmer doesn't exist. This doesn't mean Richard and Carrie aren't connected to Cooper and Laura, but they're still fresh faces in the world of "dreamers" in this new reality.
Also another point to there being alternate realities full-stop is the whole scene with Andy, Truman, Bobby, and Hawk travelling to Jack Rabbit's Palace. When they left, they appear to be stuck in a somewhat Schroder's Cat-like state of some sort. Maybe when they left, they have to re-align themselves with their main reality.
You know, even if that reality did collapse when Carrie remembered her past existence, I think it's going to turn out all right for both of them.
Mainly because this has yet to happen:
There has to come a day (or some other unit of nonlinear time) when they'll come to terms with the fact that their stories are over. We've already seen it.
Mainly because this has yet to happen:
When this new show started, Cooper still didn't understand how Laura can exist in that space and he didn't seem like the kind of person who'd offer her lodge self support the way Fire Walk With Me's Cooper would, not before he tried to find his purpose at the end of part 17. I think he's close, he just needs to learn to stop screwing things up and accept that some things should stay where they are.
There has to come a day (or some other unit of nonlinear time) when they'll come to terms with the fact that their stories are over. We've already seen it.
I was thinking that living inside a dream could simply mean the narrative we tell ourselves in our heads to make sense of the world around us and that "who is the dreamer" is which parts of ourselves are dictating that narrative (desires, fears, sorrow etc.).
Extra Sauce
Member
I hadn't even thought about the possibility that the FWWM ending hadn't happened yet.
Zombie James
Banned
The number 6 on a pole in Fire Walk With Me, the same as what Cooper sees outside Carrie's home. Hm...
edit: I just checked and the '324810' is also identical.
FWWM
Episode 18 (sorry for the Crave quality)
edit: I just checked and the '324810' is also identical.
FWWM
Episode 18 (sorry for the Crave quality)
I believe we see the same pole 3 times in Andy's white lodge vision
1. FWWM
2. Hit n Run
3. Carrie's home
perhaps a message that the Fireman is aware of what Cooper will experience, like his clues in Part 1.
The difference there is that Lynch literally did not want the show to end at that point, whereas this is very possibly exactly where he wanted the show to end.
And with anything directed by Lynch, you have to trust your intuition. That felt like an unresolved cliffhanger. This feels to me like a definitive statement. It's bleak and ambiguous, like the season 2, but now it carries with it a fully developed moral lesson and conveys a beautiful worldview. It feels like an ending.
This ends on a scream, with a sad song and an image of shock being what we're left with. I think it's more than just my mind reading sadness into what's being expressed. There's clear indications that David Lynch wants this ending to leave us in a sense of shock and sadness.
But, it isn't. The ending really is where the creators stop making it. Twin Peaks is an artificial construct that conveys ideas, and it has come to an end. It's made to register in peoples' minds, and peoples' minds' are amazing in how they can constantly imagine how things could go on or end differently, just like Agent Cooper did about Laura. But saying the real ending is what happened after that and after that and after that is like saying the true ending to a conversation is what happened after it and after it and after it. You can think about what could have happened differently if you'd said different things, and let the moment shift in your mind, but no, dude, the conversation is actually over, and you said what you said, and that's it. We can only move forward.
We can't just try to keep this show alive like Cooper tries to keep Laura alive.
I think if one chooses to think about what ifs more than ruminating on what is being communicated, they are not letting the ending breathe. I see it as a tragic ending imparting a lesson, like the endings to other Lynch films covering similar subject matter, Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive.
Damn, that was fascinating. Definitely seems plausible.
I wonder if they will end up doing another season? Id at least like to see a movie or something. Part of me doesnt want another season but theres definitely more story to be told. I guess well see what The Final Dossier says.
Might not be the right order but Im reading through the Secret History for the first time right now.
Beautiful way of putting it. I think it also goes one step further to suggest we can live inside someone else's dream if we involve themselves in their problems and are complicit in their false narrative to the extent that it comes to affect our own happiness. If the end of 18 is an indication that Laura is waking up as Audrey did at the end of 16, then perhaps by trying to keep alive Laura's fantasy that she could escape her suffering, he has come to live inside her dream and doom himself in the progress.
Of course, at this point it's now his dream as well. As long as we indulge in a fantasy, we keep alive a collective dream.
plagiarize
Banned
I've asked Sabrina Sutherland is the show was shot in 4K UHD or not. If I find out, I'll let you guys know. Of course if it was, that won't guarantee a 4K UHD Blu-Ray release, but if it wasn't, that'll tell me I don't have to start saving for a new TV any time soon.
Since this was quite low budget, I'll give you the answer: no. The most it could have been is 3.4K with the option to upscale, but they would have shot in HD to save post production costs.
plagiarize
Banned
We have no real idea whether it was low budget or not, to be fair. Looking at some episodes, I can see it being low budget. Looking at the cast list and other episodes I can see it being higher. I haven't seen any confirmation of budget in the news on this, so I will wait for Sabrina's answer.
Peter Deming implied on Facebook that he was unhappy with the amount of money they gave him to play with.
Judy likes to imprison people in weirdo dimensions or something
stuminus3
Member
As dark as the series ends I love the opening scene of 18 so much. I said throughout the series that the Joneses are Coop getting to experience a life he didn't get a chance to lead, and while the new Dougie might not necessarily be the Coop, he's clearly our Coop.
It's amazing how Kyle nailed the subtleties of all these variations. The bright eyed cheery enthusiasm of the new Dougie the moment he's created brings to mind the scene in the pilot where Cooper was so excited to talk to Harry about trees, and we only saw him for about 20 seconds.
It's amazing how Kyle nailed the subtleties of all these variations. The bright eyed cheery enthusiasm of the new Dougie the moment he's created brings to mind the scene in the pilot where Cooper was so excited to talk to Harry about trees, and we only saw him for about 20 seconds.
Boy, just finished the finale after binging the return over the last few days, and man that was great, challenging and difficult, but no doubt a worthy continuation of the series. It's going to take a while to process all of it, but I suppose that's the entire point of experiencing a work like this. The return has brought back the same feelings I had during my time in The Drowned Man and the way it responded and drew upon Lynch's philosophy of dreams and reality.
Of the entire series I think the scene that effected me the most was the ending of part 15 when the young woman crawled through the legs of the unobservant dancers at the roadhouse. It was evocative of my final experience in the Drowned Man where I found myself to be the only one noticing Wendy, the supposed murderer, as she slowly made her way through the trees to meet the rest of the cast on stage for the finale. There were so many of these random little vignettes that may have been my favorite part of the season
Of the entire series I think the scene that effected me the most was the ending of part 15 when the young woman crawled through the legs of the unobservant dancers at the roadhouse. It was evocative of my final experience in the Drowned Man where I found myself to be the only one noticing Wendy, the supposed murderer, as she slowly made her way through the trees to meet the rest of the cast on stage for the finale. There were so many of these random little vignettes that may have been my favorite part of the season
Death Metalist
Member
The number 6 on a pole in Fire Walk With Me, the same as what Cooper sees outside Carrie's home. Hm...
edit: I just checked and the '324810' is also identical.
FWWM
Episode 18 (sorry for the Crave quality)
Also number 7 in the FBI Headquarters
Pitch Black Flint
Member
I agree that Richard can be described as a combination of Mr. C and Cooper. The biggest clue is looking at the way each version of Cooper drives. Mr. C always looks like he's about to nod off at the wheel, while Cooper is constantly alert and drives almost perfectly. Richard is somewhere in between. You know this is important because Sonny Jim points out that Cooper, after coming out of the coma, is a very good driver. That's a serious hint at what's going on. The line is too out of left field and there are too many long, silent shots of them driving for it to be a coincidence.
I've always thought of Cooper and Mr. C as two extremes of the same man. One is the always positive, quirky good guy and the other is the cold, ruthless "bad" guy. Still the same Coop though. After the finale, I've started to see Mr. C as just a different Coop, obviously not a tulpa like Dougie, who was caught up on the opposite side of the loop that the Coop we know comes from. He's a version of Cooper from another dream. Where the dreams intertwine is where they meet. Since altering the past, the dreams are once again connected (or simply over, I'm not sure which yet) as Jefferies symbolized with the morphing of the owl cave symbol into an infinity symbol. Now that Cooper is whole, neither "too perfect" as Audrey would say, or too detached and emotionless like Mr. C, his view of the world is completely different and less magical than it was before. This can be seen rather obviously with his expressionless face during the sex scene in the hotel with Diane.
miazakiplz
Member
This is where I am with it too. I think there's a chance Cooper puts himself into the coma (using electricity) to create a dreamscape in his own mind. Audrey is a major hint to this. The dreamscape is like an alternate reality. This brings us back to William Hastings "I swear to you it was a dream!" despite his wife telling him his fingerprints were all over the apartment of the victim he apparently murdered. Hastings is most likely the "Billy" from Audrey's dreamscape too.
(In Cooper's dream) How the specifics/rules of the dream would work I'm kind of sketchy on. Going by Bill being in Ruth Davenport's apartment both for real and inside the dream, lets just assume that Naido/Diane, Freddy and James etc are at the sheriff's station both for real and inside Cooper's dream. You could argue this is even artistically interpreted by that guy in the cell repeating everything. The Fireman traps Mr.C and puts him inside Cooper's dream. Mr.C then says "What is this?". Perhaps using the dreamscape is the only way to defeat an entity like BOB.
Hints to this being a dream -
The superimposed Cooper head.
Cooper not having his F.B.I pin (he has it later with Diane/Cole when entering room 315).
Frank not getting out of his chair.
Frank's cartoon cowboy hat.
Hawk acting completely stupid despite spending the last 16 episodes dealing with all the lore dumps from the log lady, the map, Laura's diary, Briggs messages about the two Cooper's etc.
Andy being the one who knows what to do.
Lucy being the one to kill Mr C.
The ridiculousness of the BOB/Freddy fight was. BOB was arguably the most menacing villain ever seen in a tv show, yet he's now reduced to this?
The cheesy soap opera feeling of the whole cast just turning up at the point they are relevant to Cooper's dialogue (Bobby/Cole).
The bunny girls bringing in sandwiches.
The Wizard of Oz style - "And I hope I see you all again".
Once the dream has served it's purpose, the scene fading to black with Cooper and Cole shouting to each other. This sort of mirrors the Jeffries scene in FWWM (Who also says "We live inside a dream" just like Cooper's superimposed head).
(In reality) - Cooper awakens from the coma, goes to the sheriff's station, gets Diane, meets Cole (who knows he's going there as per Bushnell's message), then heads to room 315. Bushnell's "235 adds up to 10, the level of completion" message could even mean Cooper has already defeated Mr.C/BOB inside the dream.
There's actually a few major hints that the Cooper in part 17 might've already been to part 18. I could go into how the figure of 8 works with all of this too but I'm sure someone more eloquent than me will do a better job.
TLDR: EP17's sheriff station scene probably takes place after EP18 and is probably all dream invented by Cooper and The Fireman.
I don't agree with that at all. Andy knows what to do because of his Lodge visit with the Fireman. We even see Andy flash back to that moment.
Lucy's "I understand cell phones now!" comment also wouldn't make any sense if it was a dream, because Cooper had no idea she'd ever had trouble with them in the first place.
Lucy's "I understand cell phones now!" comment also wouldn't make any sense if it was a dream, because Cooper had no idea she'd ever had trouble with them in the first place.
Airola
Member
I think this is about body and soul. The soul is the dreamer. To get back to the source of eternal bliss and creativity AKA God is when we become what we truly are.
everybodylies
Neo Member
Compared to the most recent X-files this was an amazing success at returning to a world I had resigned to the nostalgia files. Definitely re-frames how I look at all the earlier material though...
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Agreed. It's a damn shame how underused some of the actors were.
On the whole I thought The Return was amazing, but I do really dislike how strongly it affects the original series. I feel like it takes away from it in a lot of ways.
Airola
Member
But both of them have clearly indicated that it is possible to continue the series. They have not said this is the end of it.
Well, to each their own. To me this feels nothing like an ending. That's my intuition.
Sure. He wants this episode to have that feeling. But that doesn't mean this is supposed to be the absolute final note of the world of Twin Peaks and Cooper and Laura.
The ending is clearly something that stops in the middle. It stops in a situation and it doesn't show what happens after that situation. It's all speculation. The end credits even makes it clear that we are supposed to wonder what she whispers. It is clear that Lynch doesn't want to leave us just taking this as something that we don't try to go further with in our minds.
This ending, to me, clearly is a new seed that has been planted for new stories. It may be that no-one ever continues it on tv but the seed is there for at least anyone to wonder it in their own minds.
David stopped making Twin Peaks decades ago.
At some point he even claimed that it is never coming back. He said it is not going to ever happen.
If Season 3 has taught something it's that there is always room to dream and there are no endings to anything until the universe stops existing (and even then things go on spiritually - Lynch believes in God and some sort of an afterlife).
True Savior
Member
A beautiful, deeply unsettling finale, reviving the nightmarish nature of twin peaks and the characters who inhabit in it. Nothing disturbs me more than mundanity affected by a terrifying unknown, and if episode 17 was more of an extravaganza of events, episode 18 set the course back to the dreadful sentiment of a "negative force" (as described by the show) operating under us that we (and them) cannot escape.
Carrie screaming over a traumatic remembrance is an incredible fitting end to this journey.
Carrie screaming over a traumatic remembrance is an incredible fitting end to this journey.
Rien
Jelly Belly
Maybe all the dreams are numbered and we follow all caracters dreams in which they all have their own number.
Edit;
Question:
Is the house where Carrie lives the same house as where Gordon saw the vortex and where Bill Hastings got shot in the head? The one in Sycamore street?
And could Freddie have something to do with the boxing match Sarah is watching? Does anyone knows which match this is and what colour the glove of the boxer is who knock-outs the other? Since it is B&W it cant be seen but maybe its a famous boxing match. Not much knowledge abt boxing.
Edit; one of the boxers is probably Bushnell right?
31GhostsIV
Banned
Odessa is as close as the show ever got to the Trinity site (apart from the test itself).
As Lynch loves non-linearity, is it possible the events of Part 8 were Judy's reaction to Coop messing with the timeline?
If you remember (or have read TSHOTP) BOB is an evil that existed long before the Trinity test. So - Mother uses the Trinity test to re-enter the past to counter Coop's 'rescue' plan and BOB also takes the opportunity to re-enter the timeline. Their actions create the dimensions Coop/Richard finds himself in when he 'crosses over' with Diane.
This is why Laura keeps disappearing - just when Coop thinks he's changed the timeline in her favour, Judy goes back even further and alters it, so Laura isn't in Twin Peaks in the first place. In fact, she's now in Odessa under a different identity, where The Fireman sent her essence to counter the evil.
As he is an overseer who can monitor Judy, The Fireman already sent Laura's essence to Earth in the timeline and knowing where it will go, he can guide Coop to find it.
I'm sure there's holes in this but it seemed worth further investigation?
As Lynch loves non-linearity, is it possible the events of Part 8 were Judy's reaction to Coop messing with the timeline?
If you remember (or have read TSHOTP) BOB is an evil that existed long before the Trinity test. So - Mother uses the Trinity test to re-enter the past to counter Coop's 'rescue' plan and BOB also takes the opportunity to re-enter the timeline. Their actions create the dimensions Coop/Richard finds himself in when he 'crosses over' with Diane.
This is why Laura keeps disappearing - just when Coop thinks he's changed the timeline in her favour, Judy goes back even further and alters it, so Laura isn't in Twin Peaks in the first place. In fact, she's now in Odessa under a different identity, where The Fireman sent her essence to counter the evil.
As he is an overseer who can monitor Judy, The Fireman already sent Laura's essence to Earth in the timeline and knowing where it will go, he can guide Coop to find it.
I'm sure there's holes in this but it seemed worth further investigation?