Why is that? What kind of diner decor does Judy prefer?
Why would Judy want to do that? What does Judy want?
Why doesn't Judy just go back in time to kill Cooper and save Hitler? Why does Judy care so much about Cooper?
What is Judy?
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
What is Judy?
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Judy is Mark Frost.
Who is the dreamer is Lynch.
Who is the dreamer is Lynch.
31GhostsIV
Banned
Why doesn't Coop go back to when Leland met Robertson?
Discotheque
Banned
I like how open ended it is to the point that many of these theories can be valid.
Also Lynch is a god of sound design and permeating such an eerie feeling throughout his work. Even if I came out despising the finale (which I did not, very happy with it even if some things I wished for did not occur. one of the best finales of all time for me in fact), I would not be able to ignore how funny this whole season was. Or how haunting certain scenes (or episodes) were. and that god damn music, its all used remarkably from the episode closing performances to the way its used to sometimes make things more disturbing or strengthen the ambience (and even in a meta way to pull us in with nostalgia)
And even though its not my favorite tv drama (I still have Sopranos, Mad Men and Wire over it), its going to be tattooed in my brain in a way no other show can be thanks to the creative direction he went here.
Looking forward to seeing what the next generation of artists come up with as they are inevitably influenced by these 18 episodes.
Also Lynch is a god of sound design and permeating such an eerie feeling throughout his work. Even if I came out despising the finale (which I did not, very happy with it even if some things I wished for did not occur. one of the best finales of all time for me in fact), I would not be able to ignore how funny this whole season was. Or how haunting certain scenes (or episodes) were. and that god damn music, its all used remarkably from the episode closing performances to the way its used to sometimes make things more disturbing or strengthen the ambience (and even in a meta way to pull us in with nostalgia)
And even though its not my favorite tv drama (I still have Sopranos, Mad Men and Wire over it), its going to be tattooed in my brain in a way no other show can be thanks to the creative direction he went here.
Looking forward to seeing what the next generation of artists come up with as they are inevitably influenced by these 18 episodes.
Well, for starters, he doesn't know the date or how it even happened.
The main difference here is that we know what Cooper can and what he might want to do. All we know about Judy is... well, absolutely nothing, because that's not even its name.
I'm trying to do a top 5 scenes from the season. It's really hard.
5. Mr. C and the arm wrestle contest (why do they have that huge screen? lol)
4. the accountant shoot out ("People are under a lot of stress")
3. Gordon Cole's dream with Monica Bellucci
2. Dougie and the Mitchums, hard to pick one, but probably the one in the restaurant with the piano music (and Candie <3)
1. The entire sequence in 1956 "this is the water and this is the well"
top 5 small moments or lines:
5. Carl and the "flute"
4. Diane seeing her copy at the hotel
3. "he's dead"
2. HeeeelllllllooooOOOOOOoooo
1. Laura's final scream
I wanted to pick stuff that were original to this season, some notable nostalgic ones were Audrey's Dance, Coop waking up, Bobby crying to Laura's picture, Log Lady passing and James' song (what a troll).
5. Mr. C and the arm wrestle contest (why do they have that huge screen? lol)
4. the accountant shoot out ("People are under a lot of stress")
3. Gordon Cole's dream with Monica Bellucci
2. Dougie and the Mitchums, hard to pick one, but probably the one in the restaurant with the piano music (and Candie <3)
1. The entire sequence in 1956 "this is the water and this is the well"
top 5 small moments or lines:
5. Carl and the "flute"
4. Diane seeing her copy at the hotel
3. "he's dead"
2. HeeeelllllllooooOOOOOOoooo
1. Laura's final scream
I wanted to pick stuff that were original to this season, some notable nostalgic ones were Audrey's Dance, Coop waking up, Bobby crying to Laura's picture, Log Lady passing and James' song (what a troll).
Don Draper's Hat
Member
Top 5 moments:
5. That Audrey ending
4. Americans learning about the word "jobsworth"
3. All scenes with Randall Headley
2. All scenes with Candie
1. Everything that wasn't episode 8
5. That Audrey ending
4. Americans learning about the word "jobsworth"
3. All scenes with Randall Headley
2. All scenes with Candie
1. Everything that wasn't episode 8
We doing top moments now? This is hard, because I haven't rewatched anything yet, so the early episodes and moments may not be as easily recalled:
5. Episode 3: Mr. Jackpots / "Hellllooooooooooo". The moment our beloved Dougie was delivered as a gift to all from Lynch and Maclachlan. It's almost impossible to pick a favorite Dougie moment, so I'm sticking with the original. Cooper spreading joy and goodwill even in a vegetative state.
4. Episode 8: "This is the water. And this is the well. Drink full and descend. The horse is the white of the eyes and dark within" / "Got a light?" . I pretty much don't need to say anything more - this is easily one of the iconic scenes of The Return. Absolutely chilling stuff.
3. Episode 8: The scene in the White Lodge with the Fireman and Dido where Laura is conceived. Absolutely god tier cinematography, sound design and one of Angelo Badalamenti's finest cues every. Such a beautiful, profound sequence.
2. Episode 16: "I am the FBI". Not only was this finally the moment everyone had been waiting for, but it was absolutely incredible to see Maclachlan seamlessly step back into those shoes as if no time had passed. What's even better? That our beloved Coop's first thought after 25 years of purgatory was to take care of the Jones family.
1. Episode 17: "I saw you in a dream. In a dream". Although ultimately she was ripped away from him, because you can't change the past, for a brief moment Dale Cooper was able to save Laura Palmer. Save her from death, save her from torment, save her from an eternity in the Red Room. The brilliant stitching of FWWM to newly shot footage, Angelo Badalamenti's iconic Laura Palmer theme blasting, and the transition from black and white to color as Laura's wrapped in plastic body disappears as she asks "where are we going?" and Cooper responds "we're going home" was complete and utter emotional and sensory overload for me in the very best way. My favorite scene of The Return.
5. Episode 3: Mr. Jackpots / "Hellllooooooooooo". The moment our beloved Dougie was delivered as a gift to all from Lynch and Maclachlan. It's almost impossible to pick a favorite Dougie moment, so I'm sticking with the original. Cooper spreading joy and goodwill even in a vegetative state.
4. Episode 8: "This is the water. And this is the well. Drink full and descend. The horse is the white of the eyes and dark within" / "Got a light?" . I pretty much don't need to say anything more - this is easily one of the iconic scenes of The Return. Absolutely chilling stuff.
3. Episode 8: The scene in the White Lodge with the Fireman and Dido where Laura is conceived. Absolutely god tier cinematography, sound design and one of Angelo Badalamenti's finest cues every. Such a beautiful, profound sequence.
2. Episode 16: "I am the FBI". Not only was this finally the moment everyone had been waiting for, but it was absolutely incredible to see Maclachlan seamlessly step back into those shoes as if no time had passed. What's even better? That our beloved Coop's first thought after 25 years of purgatory was to take care of the Jones family.
1. Episode 17: "I saw you in a dream. In a dream". Although ultimately she was ripped away from him, because you can't change the past, for a brief moment Dale Cooper was able to save Laura Palmer. Save her from death, save her from torment, save her from an eternity in the Red Room. The brilliant stitching of FWWM to newly shot footage, Angelo Badalamenti's iconic Laura Palmer theme blasting, and the transition from black and white to color as Laura's wrapped in plastic body disappears as she asks "where are we going?" and Cooper responds "we're going home" was complete and utter emotional and sensory overload for me in the very best way. My favorite scene of The Return.
What's literal and metaphorical get very blurred together where dreams are so central, but I think Judy is 'the existence of evil' and Laura's death is 'the impact on evil'. He's trying to stop something that happened because of the influence of evil from having happened, but it's not possible because evil will always be there. It can never be truly overcome.
Enoch Root
Member
My number one top moment is the screaming lady in the car. I've watched it a bunch of times and still laugh every time. It is disturbing but humorous at the same time, which I think can also describe the series as a whole.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
It's really hard for me to articulate my thoughts without really sitting down for a good few hours and knuckle out the appropriate phrasing, but I guess a part of why I loved the ending is I feel underlining themes of Twin Peaks as a whole is its self awareness and playfulness with being a television series, the receptive audience and their expectations, and the unique twist on satire.
Just as Twin Peaks S1/S2 were so reminiscent but borderline bastardised versions of kitschy soap television, deliberately weighting the cliches with such haunting, dark undertones and surrealism, so too do I feel S3 echoes this with the additional playfulness with the legacy and iconography of Twin Peaks.
It's wanky and impossible to know for sure, but it's why something like Episode 18 is so important and resonant. It feels like an intense culmination of all these things with absolute unsettlingness.
Just as Twin Peaks S1/S2 were so reminiscent but borderline bastardised versions of kitschy soap television, deliberately weighting the cliches with such haunting, dark undertones and surrealism, so too do I feel S3 echoes this with the additional playfulness with the legacy and iconography of Twin Peaks.
It's wanky and impossible to know for sure, but it's why something like Episode 18 is so important and resonant. It feels like an intense culmination of all these things with absolute unsettlingness.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Don't forget that character, who was dressed similar to the Log Lady, appeared shortly after the Log Lady, who had strange knowledge of everything, died. She seemed to become aware of something right before she screamed, jut like Carrie/Laura.
I don't remember the last time I laughed as hard as I did when "He's dead" happened.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
In my head canon opening the thing at owl cave is what starts the uber crazy stuff for twin peaks.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
Baguettes with brie and butter still best Twin Peaks moment
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
After re-watching 17/18 it really strikes me as noteworthy that everything that happens after Coop's face becomes superimposed on the screen appears to be occurring in a different dream/reality to the main body of the show.
The critical clue, as always, is Coop's FBI pin which never leaves the Red Room, except in the finale where you see him immediately wearing it when he Diane and Cole are on the way to the mystery door to use the room 315 key.
Bear in mind that there are multiple reality shifts following this, but the commonality is that Coop (even as "Richard") retains the pin. He has that pin on the way to the door, in the Dutchman's, when he exits through the red curtains to reunite with Diane, in the car on the way to the crossing point, and even after the switcheroo motel(s) where literally everything else changes when he wakes up.
The key for me is that the only time we see Coop being the "self" we recognize in the entire duration of the show is following his awakening at the end of ep 16, and up to the superimposed face segment mid-way through 17. Yet that Cooper doesn't have his FBI pin or credentials, because when he replaced Dougie he came through without clothes, and we never see Cole or anyone else give him them because there isn't really an opportunity for them to do so.
So, what can this all mean? Its a very specific point of differentiation that appears constant despite massive shifts in "reality". Why is the most authentic Cooper, the one without the pin?
The critical clue, as always, is Coop's FBI pin which never leaves the Red Room, except in the finale where you see him immediately wearing it when he Diane and Cole are on the way to the mystery door to use the room 315 key.
Bear in mind that there are multiple reality shifts following this, but the commonality is that Coop (even as "Richard") retains the pin. He has that pin on the way to the door, in the Dutchman's, when he exits through the red curtains to reunite with Diane, in the car on the way to the crossing point, and even after the switcheroo motel(s) where literally everything else changes when he wakes up.
The key for me is that the only time we see Coop being the "self" we recognize in the entire duration of the show is following his awakening at the end of ep 16, and up to the superimposed face segment mid-way through 17. Yet that Cooper doesn't have his FBI pin or credentials, because when he replaced Dougie he came through without clothes, and we never see Cole or anyone else give him them because there isn't really an opportunity for them to do so.
So, what can this all mean? Its a very specific point of differentiation that appears constant despite massive shifts in "reality". Why is the most authentic Cooper, the one without the pin?
now i'm back to just hating the finale and thinking the whole season was about absolutely nothing and most of the mysteries are just mistakes or random crap. i've never been this conflicted about something, i think it's because i want to like it so i'm giving it waaay more thought than i normally would, usually i'd just put this under the 'bad' category, but there's just enough here to suggest it might not deserve that...but it still might.
definitely interesting, i guess.
definitely interesting, i guess.
MisterR
Member
Listen man, it may be inscrutable to you and it's fair if you consider it bad, but David Lynch and Mark Frost didn't work for years to make something that is about absolutely nothing and mysteries that are all based on mistakes. If it didn't work for you, then it didn't work for you, but trying to write it all off as meaning nothing and being based on mistakes is very condescending to the many people who are completely absorbed by it all and want to puzzle out the mysteries. Nothing wrong with it just not being for you, some people obviously hated it and that's fine. Most great art is really divisive.
Extra Sauce
Member
The season as a whole feels like another uber cryptic Lynch film, but an 18 hours one that I don't know when I'll be able to revisit in an attempt to get a firmer grasp on its mysteries and symbolism. I can rewatch Lost Highway or Mulholland Dr. again and again but how many times will I realistically rewatch "The Return"? Hopefully at least once but I don't know if that will be enough.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Actually when he came through as Dougie he did have his black suit on, but without the pin, right? Which does strengthen your theory.
benicillin
Banned
I'm sorry if this has already been linked, I haven't been able to keep up with the thread, but did you all see the video that showed the two lodge scenes with Cooper side-by-side?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1-31cSNhPU
Laura Palmer saying she's dead but that she also lives is quite interesting now that we've seen the ending.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1-31cSNhPU
Laura Palmer saying she's dead but that she also lives is quite interesting now that we've seen the ending.
edit: actually nevermind, i don't want to just come in and shit all over people who want to talk about it.
MisterR
Member
I specifically mentioned several times that I have no problem at all with you thinking it's bad. You certainly have that right and there is no right or wrong to it, it all comes down to personal taste and opinion. That said, it obviously meant a lot to a lot of people. It's getting a lot of rave reviews from critics. It's spawned a ton of though from people, which already makes it a big improvement over most of the medium. It's not about getting it or not, it either meant something to you or it didn't and that's fine.
plagiarize
Banned
This is a good message over all I think.
I think the show is an unqualified success artistically, in that I think it's absolutely what David and Mark wanted it to be. That doesn't mean it's a piece of art everyone can enjoy, and I use that specific word on purpose. Because I appreciate the quality of a lot of things I don't like.
Game of Thrones is not for me. Twin Peaks is. Both are clearly succeeding in many ways.
"I am the FBI" is definitely my favorite moment of the series. Coop regaining his senses, saying goodbye to Bushnell, uttering the line, and driving out with Janey-E and Sonny Jim, while the main theme swells over this sequence, just put the biggest fucking smile on my face both times I watched it.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
Carrie Page says, as soon as she realises it's the FBI at the door, "Did you find him?"
Obviously at this point we're supposed to think someone she cares about is missing. But then later she talks about needing to get out of Dodge City hinting at somebody being after her.
Any theories as to who that could be? BOB maybe?
Obviously at this point we're supposed to think someone she cares about is missing. But then later she talks about needing to get out of Dodge City hinting at somebody being after her.
Any theories as to who that could be? BOB maybe?
The dead guy in her home is possibly her husband. She killed him but is feigning ignorance, asking the FBI if they've found him yet because she wants it to appear as if he's missing
the people after her could be the police or something idk but I feel good about the husband thing!
Given that she doesn't seem to acknowledge the corpse rotting on her couch at all, I'm guessing she killed whoever that guy was, thought she left the body somewhere else, and now thinks the FBI has come to her door because they found it. And now she needs to get out of town to avoid being caught when the body does turn up. For whatever reason, she is subconsciously blocking herself from seeing that the body is 10 feet away in her living room.
I was thinking it just meant that Carrie/Laura was in trouble and was justification for hopping town with a stranger who claims he's FBI.
HashtagLapsed
Member
The dead guy in Carrie/Laura's house and the way he is positioned as if he is doing something reminds me a lot of Blue Velvet.
plagiarize
Banned
Maybe she reported the dead guy as missing but hadn't had a chance to get rid of the body? Carrie seems filled with her own secrets.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
What fell flat for me was the resolution to the main arc. Mr.C in the sheriffs station was gripping but then he gets offed by Lucy (if there was ever a time to move heaven and earth for an Ontkean cameo that would have been perfect).
But why did Mr.C need coordinates? What was he looking for? And when he gets them the fireman just cosmically cockblocks him and pachinkos him off to the sheriffs station.
And why was Diane important? She is just kind of there and then leaves after the motel.
But why did Mr.C need coordinates? What was he looking for? And when he gets them the fireman just cosmically cockblocks him and pachinkos him off to the sheriffs station.
And why was Diane important? She is just kind of there and then leaves after the motel.
Extra Sauce
Member
"Were just entering Twin Peaks city limits. Is the coffee on?" may be the closest thing we got to fan service this season.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Yes. I can't remember the last time I cheered out loud while watching a television show that wasn't a WWE event because I'm a mark.
I saw someone else online mention that the corpse in Carrie's house appears to have shot himself. The shot went in from the lower part of his face, out the upper part of the back of his head (as seen by the blood spatter on the wall). Which is what you would see when someone shoots himself while sitting down like that.
I don't know if that was how it was intended (no definitive information is given and a thousand different things could have happened) but that is how that reads to me. It definitely adds an interesting wrinkle to whatever went down in that house.
There are so many articles out there, post finale. Couple of good ones:
Vox: Twin Peaks was the only TV show that made sense this summer
AV Club: Twin Peaks gave us a moving meditation on death
Vox: Twin Peaks was the only TV show that made sense this summer
AV Club: Twin Peaks gave us a moving meditation on death
Definitely this. That entire sequence starting from the gunshot was incredible.
The way those 10 minutes go from climax to climax to climax was incredible. From the talk around the table, to the gun shot, to the endless car honking to the screaming lady to the 80s horror gross out bit... Def one of my favorite of the bits that didnt move the plot forward or illuminate the central mysteries in any way.
I have to rewatch the whole thing and take notes, but the throwaway joke that stands out the most to me is the guy in the restroom saying that bad, eh? when Anthony throws the coffee into the toilet and the mug in the trash.
Also, the bit with Candie and the tv remote was also perfect, so very funny and her reaction thereafter was so Lynch.
The tale of the little girl who lives down the lane is over. This is a different tale.
plagiarize
Banned
Is it? Is it really Charlie?
Lucy getting the kill seemed pretty random to me at first too, but thinking it over, it's a nice touch that the two purest hearted people on the show are the ones who rescue Naido and kill Mr. C.
The coordinates are to the portal to the White Lodge in the woods. Briggs uses the same coordinates to escape to the White Lodge (and we see his, uh, head floating there) and leaves the coordinates behind for Bobby, et al. to find too. Why Mr C. wants to enter the White Lodge in the first place is unclear. My view of it is that he treats it much like Windom Earle treats the Black Lodge: as this source of power he believes he can manipulate to his own ends, but once he enters, he finds that he's totally vulnerable to the spirits who live there. In Earle's case, he was killed by BOB after trying to use the lodge's power for himself; in Mr. C's case, he was imprisoned in a cage and then spat out at the sheriff's station to be killed.
Naido reverting back into Diane seems to trigger in Cooper the realization that he has the power to save Laura; that the present they're living in is a dream that can be changed/woken up from by preventing Laura's death.
Especially since she reveals that the Laura Palmer who's dead but also lives is a hollow shell. I interpret this as that she lives because Cooper dreams that she's still alive, but it's one person's dream of a person, not the fully formed identity of an individual.
I've certainly been forthright about what I think gave it meaning, even in response to your own posts. Ultimately it's abstract art, so not everyone will be on its wavelength, those who feel they are won't be on the same page, and it will take a while for anything close to a consensus to solidify.
That said.
While Lynch is expressing the idea that you can't return to Twin Peaks, the 25+ year old work, he has not created a self-obsessed wank that says nothing outside of itself. The metafictional commentary is ultimately a minor aspect of the entire message, that we cannot return to the past. It is applicable to real life in profound ways. Dale Cooper dooms himself by denying the present reality in trying to 'undo' that which cannot be undone. He is stuck in the denial phase. It is about the necessity of confronting pain head on, and the way repressing your trauma comes to bite you back. Laura's scream at not being able to suppress the trauma of her own abuse within that house, and Audrey's scream at being reminded of her own past and identity as a rape victim, are all a reflection of this. We can't escape our suffering unless we're willing to take the first step of admitting to ourselves that we suffer.
And even if we are not so haunted by trauma, we can still take the message of the danger of not admitting to ourselves what our actions are really accomplishing. So many people hurt themselves in the long run by not admitting the ultimate fruitlessness of the path they choose in life. Happiness eludes us, like Richard/Cooper and Bad Cooper, who are so obsessed with their idea that they'll find satisfaction if they follow their path to completion that they're unable to enjoy the moment along the way. As long as they chase an unreachable goal, happiness will be out of their grasp.
It's not ultimately a negative message because while we're shown the tragedy of those who can't escape their fate, we're also given the positive examples to show there's another way. Jerry and Jacobi are weirdos in the eyes of society, but they're ultimately enjoying life. They've found a way not to be bothered. They're not harming anyone, so it's not necessary to care about trivial matters like what anyone else thinks. Those who get it, like Nadine, get it, those who don't, don't. Or Carl Rodd, who despite having 'already been places' that elicit a dead eyed stare, is still finding a way to enjoy life. He witnesses suffering all around him, but rather than hide from trauma, he confronts it head on, and tries to help those who suffer, even if it means having to take on a little of their pain on his shoulders. He's found an authentic way to live, and he still takes time to enjoy the moment, gazing at the beauty of the trees or playing his banjo.
Finally we have Dougie Cooper. Dougie, now fully awake as he heads through the red door, is a Cooper that has learned an important lesson that our Special Agent never could. Rather than getting trapped by the past, letting its trauma cloud his head to the extent that he never feels happiness, he chooses to live in the moment. He doesn't take his blessings for granted. He accepts the love of his wife and son, whereas Agent Cooper drives away his lover by being unable to be in the moment with her - he lets the darkness of the past cloud over where once there was love, in that tragic sex scene. And then, she's gone, before he realised how important what he had was.
It's a message about the need to enjoy life, despite the sadness. The importance of accepting the present moment and making the most of it, and the futility of letting the pain of the past prevent us from enjoying the rest of our life on earth. It's a tragedy that gives us examples to hopefully guide the audience to a better life. Therefore, it's far from recursive self-obsession, but a work of art designed to give energy and life back to the world.
Really well said, you echo a lot of what I think the overarching theme is. Furthermore, I think it's a message warning against the evil of the world and how we perceive it and deal with it. Really all we can do is strive to make our sphere of influence better and hope that the positivity carries forward. As a relevant example, we can't fight the concept of racism, just as we could never really have a war on terror or a war on drugs, these things are too abstract, and if we try and fight the concept we will lose, just as Coop I think ultimately can't really fight Judy, the concept of negativity.
As with Dougie making smaller changes to the people around him and bringing them contentment, so too should we strive to be better people and work on improving things for the people we directly have an influence on, whether that's being aware to treat the people we have contact with better, or standing up to injustice that we can directly stand up to.