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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End

gun_haver

Member

Listening to this now, some interesting stuff. Liked the comparison to the Talking Heads song lyrics with Bob and Judy - I don't think that's what's going on, but it was entertaining to consider for a few minutes.

Keep the links to this kinda reaction and analysis stuff comin, folks. I don't know where to look and I'm eating it up.

I also liked this quote from Kyle McLachlan about the end of the finale:

I had a feeling that the final thing was going to be one of those, sort of, hair on the back-of-your-neck-goes-up moments, and people are going to like — if they're in the middle of a bite of pie, the pie's going to drop off the fork. It was just unexpected and what, and your mind sort of spins backwards, it was one of those kinds of moments. I felt like that was what was going to happen. And indeed, that was my experience. I was like whoa. Just like, whoa.

Like a bite of pie dropping off the fork.
 
Starting to think the end might be good. Electricity was a bad influence on the Palmer's life, and at the end it went out. That creepy fan will no longer spin. Also, given the whole out of order thing, I'm starting to wonder if some scenes were set after the ending.
Hawk does say at one point in The Return that fire - and with it, electricity - is neither good nor bad. It's a neutral force that can be twisted into the dark fire on his map.

And doesn't the Log Lady in one of her calls tie the fading of fire/electricity with the end of the world? Not sure about this one, and I can't remember which episode it was in so I can't check.
 
There were cars, everywhere.
4zi1ljy.gif
 

Mubbed

Member
Episodes 14 and 15 were my favorite episodes. Those two episodes escalated multiple story threads to monumental proportions before the final encounter.
 

jstripes

Banned
I was thinking about how grim "Richard" is, and it dawned on me that Cooper consciously sacrificed his joie de vivre to create Dougie 2.0.

He realized Janey E needs a loving husband, and Sonny Jim needs a caring dad. He gave them those positive aspects of himself because he didn't need them where he was going.
 

fenners

Member
I was thinking about how grim "Richard" is, and it dawned on me that Cooper consciously sacrificed his joie de vivre to create Dougie 2.0.

He realized Janey E needs a loving husband, and Sonny Jim needs a caring dad. He gave them those positive aspects of himself because he didn't need them where he was going.

Yeah, when Cooper "returned", it was clear the time in Vegas with them had impacted him heavily... At this point I don't grasp the impact of creating a tulpa, but making one for Sonny Jim & Jane-Y was clearly important to Coop, for all the right reasons. I don't think anyone here would disagree that they deserved happiness.
 
While the "I am the FBI" scene made me cheer so loud at my TV screen in a way that I never have. I still think my absolute favorite scene in The Return has to be the desert scene followed by the wonderful scene with Dougie and the Mitchum Brothers at the table. I talked about it before

Death Metalist said:
If I were to say what my favorite scene is so far? In a show where there's full of them? I think the "Cherry Pie At The Table" scene(I'd probably count it with the desert as one long scene) might be my favorite for a number of things. The Mitchum Brothers embracing Zombie Coop/Dougie, the music which fits the entire general atmosphere and it almost feels like Candie is about to break out into a song when she speaks, The Mitchum brothers reaction to the pie, Zombie Coop/Dougie's reaction to them calling him a friend and the fucking scene just goes on and on and it's a shame that it's not the scene in full on youtube but it's so warm and beautiful. Such a wonderful scene. Also, how could I forget? much like the original show, this one is filled with amazing music in general.

I still feel strongly about it.
 

Blader

Member
Putting aside every other element of this season for a second, I think the last scene is really excellent. Sure, it comes out of this season overall so you can't actually separate it, but there's just something about it in particular. The Palmer house, despite looking the same as it ever did, is just a really fucking creepy place in that scene. The low angle looking up into the lit, but apparently empty rooms. There's this feeling that something incredibly evil just continues to exist there, but you'll never quite see it fully show its face. Then the way the lights cut out with a boom, and the scream from Laura.

There's something really kinda scary about the way all the lights in the house cut out at once, and then the screen cuts right to black.
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
Rewatching episode 2 and it's funny in Bad Coops first meeting with Chantal she has Cheetos all over the place.

Edit: also, watching it again episode 2 is up there in my favorite episodes, lots of good Coop stuff, Hastings, Chromatics... So good
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
But why did Mr.C need coordinates? What was he looking for? And when he gets them the fireman just cosmically cockblocks him and pachinkos him off to the sheriffs station.

Supposedly trying to get this:


Which many speculate could be Judy or Mother, which could be inhabiting Sarah. That's why the Giant hovers his hand to change from the Palmer's house, to the sheriff's station. To try to stop.

I have to rewatch the whole thing and take notes, but the throwaway joke that stands out the most to me is the guy in the restroom saying ”that bad, eh?" when Anthony throws the coffee into the toilet and the mug in the trash.

I have to say, although that one is very good, my favorite will never be topped.

"FUCK GENE KELLY, YOU MOTHERFUCKER"

Never have I been so glad that swearing is allowed in TV.

Cooper's doppelgänger set up the glass box to catch Cooper and send him to the white lodge, which has now been infiltrated by Judy.

Days later the Mother of all Abominations uses the box and escapes. Where does it go?
 

Prurient

Banned
I always figured that the glass box was simply meant to throw Cooper to some other dimension in order to try and stop him coming back. The thing that appears and kills the two watching the box is simply an entity that's used that connection to travel to our world.

On a related note, looking at the numbered outlets in the purple room it's almost as if Naido stops Coop from entering episode 15, Dougie's last, and sends him to episode 3, Dougie's first.
 

Javier23

Banned
I am disappointed that Candi's weirdness didn't go anywhere... I totally expected her to be like Dougie and "wake up," but I guess she's just a mentally broken woman.
I jùst realised yesterday that these girls are a walking reference to 'In Dreams'.

EDIT: I have also been enjoying the idea of the entire Dougie part of the narrative as somewhat of a sequel to Eraserhead, Dougie being Lynch's self-insert to deal with his impostor syndrome.
 

hughesta

Banned
I am disappointed that Candi's weirdness didn't go anywhere... I totally expected her to be like Dougie and "wake up," but I guess she's just a mentally broken woman.
I interpreted that the girls are women who come from some horrific or tragic past but that Mitchum Bros got a hold of and made maids, effectively giving them a chance a happy life. Candie seems to genuinely love them.
 

mjp2417

Banned
On a related note, looking at the numbered outlets in the purple room it's almost as if Naido stops Coop from entering episode 15, Dougie's last, and sends him to episode 3, Dougie's first.

I'm rewatching the entire season and noticed this as well. In general, there seems to be a lot more specific plot points being revealed via the lodge scenes than there were in the original two seasons, which is one of the reasons why wrapping your head around the season in its entirety is so fucking hard.
 
I interpreted that the girls are women who come from some horrific or tragic past but that Mitchum Bros got a hold of and made maids, effectively giving them a chance a happy life. Candie seems to genuinely love them.

And the Mitchum bros implied they won't fire her because they know she has nowhere else to go.
 

Mariolee

Member
Sarah Palmer's house. It's the secret she's keeping from Hawk when he visits her.

That's the thing. So does that mean Judy being a part of Sarah Palmer is a recent thing? That would make the most sense since we don't really see much of a hint of it during the original series to my recollection, at least not to this extent.

Though that doesn't explain the whole frog-bug thing crawling into that girl's (supposedly Sarah Palmer's?) mouth.
 

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
That's the thing. So does that mean Judy being a part of Sarah Palmer is a recent thing? That would make the most sense since we don't really see much of a hint of it during the original series to my recollection, at least not to this extent.

Though that doesn't explain the whole frog-bug thing crawling into that girl's (supposedly Sarah Palmer's?) mouth.
I like to think the bug is the seed of evil, dormant until Sarah Palmer's life is destroyed by the trauma of what happens to her family. The Mother/Experiment is Judy, and is drawn to her now that the bug is awake. It wants to take her, like Bob wanted Laura. It is in her house now...and then it ultimately fuses with her.

Alternate theory: the Tremonds/Chalfonts are in the kitchen when Hawk visits, working their dark magic.
 

Hitmeneer

Member
Yeah, when Cooper "returned", it was clear the time in Vegas with them had impacted him heavily... At this point I don't grasp the impact of creating a tulpa, but making one for Sonny Jim & Jane-Y was clearly important to Coop, for all the right reasons. I don't think anyone here would disagree that they deserved happiness.

To me Jane-Y does not really deserve happiness. She seems to be mostly happy about the fact that Dougie got handsome and loads of money. The fact that he changed, acts weirder and is hanging out with shady people is all O.K. for her. Seems like a gold-digger.
 

hussmk

Neo Member
To me Jane-Y does not really deserve happiness. She seems to be mostly happy about the fact that Dougie got handsome and loads of money. The fact that he changed, acts weirder and is hanging out with shady people is all O.K. for her. Seems like a gold-digger.

Dougie was cheating on her, gambling and an overall terrible husband (from what we know). Yet she stayed by his side, took care of him and took care of their son. I'd say she was a pretty great wife, especially how she stood up to the people who were blackmailing him for money in order to protect her family. Even when they got all the money, she didn't go on a spending spree or anything of the sort... she mentioned that she wanted to save the money for Sonny Jim's future. Sure she was happy when they got the car and the money, but I don't think anyone in the world wouldn't if they were in her place.

As for Dougie suddenly becoming handsome... again, Dougie was cheating on her and it seemed like they had a cold, unhappy marriage. The new Dougie was different though and it was like she started falling in love with him all over again.

Finally, it wasn't only Janey-E that was okay with Dougie acting weird... Bushnell mentions he had an accident and that he always acted weird afterwards... she (like everyone else that knew him) probably thought he was just having a "bad period" or something. Although in this case I guess you also have to suspend disbelief because the story requires you to.
 

Hitmeneer

Member
Dougie was cheating on her, gambling and an overall terrible husband (from what we know). Yet she stayed by his side, took care of him and took care of their son. I'd say she was a pretty great wife, especially how she stood up to the people who were blackmailing him for money in order to protect her family. Even when they got all the money, she didn't go on a spending spree or anything of the sort... she mentioned that she wanted to save the money for Sonny Jim's future. Sure she was happy when they got the car and the money, but I don't think anyone in the world wouldn't if they were in her place.

As for Dougie suddenly becoming handsome... again, Dougie was cheating on her and it seemed like they had a cold, unhappy marriage. The new Dougie was different though and it was like she started falling in love with him all over again.

Finally, it wasn't only Janey-E that was okay with Dougie acting weird... Bushnell mentions he had an accident and that he always acted weird afterwards... she (like everyone else that knew him) probably thought he was just having a "bad period" or something. Although in this case I guess you also have to suspend disbelief because the story requires you to.

I know Dougie had an accident and that indeed explains that he was already "weird" or different, but he seemed to be weirder than before. As a caring wife, I would want to get to the bottom of that.

Furthermore, you are correct that he was not a good husband. He did gamble and she knew that and hated that. I am not sure however if she knew that he also cheated? And maybe the marriage between old Dougie and Janey-E was so bad, that they didn't have sex so Dougie went to prostitutes (she was a prostitute right, from what I remember?)?

However, when Dougie became good looking and rich all was forgotten? As soon as she found out about the money, she completely changed. Dougie was as passive as possible, so I wouldn't define that either as caring or as a warm personality. To me at least it seemed she seemed to be very superficial and just in for it for the looks and the money.
 

g11

Member
Cooper's doppelgänger set up the glass box to catch Cooper and send him to the white lodge, which has now been infiltrated by Judy.

I meant specifically the mysterious millionaire/billionaire, I can't remember which anymore. What's his role? What did he expect to get out of it? Early on there was multiple theories (Jefferies, imposter Jefferies, Audrey) and nothing. Also I don't think it's a given the box was meant for Cooper. If the box was meant for Cooper, why did it send him right to a place where he could easily enter Dougie? If the plan is to send him into Dougie and then have Dougie killed, after about the second murder failure, why doesn't Mr. C just go and plug Dougie himself instead of sending nitwits to do it over and over? Was it really more important to track down Ray than kill the ONE person capable of sending him back? In the grand scheme it's not super important, but it's just one of the weird little things that never gets resolved that bothers me slightly.

There's just a lot of little things that still feel muddled. For instance, Cole somehow knows Jefferies isn't human anymore. How?

Somebody using the name Jefferies hired Ray to kill Mr. C. If it is Jefferies and he can communicate with the outside world enough to hire a schmuck like Ray, why not get word to Cole "the Cooper out there is bad" instead of "Hey btw I'm a little teapot, short and stout".

If you assume, like many here did, that the person posing as Jefferies was Sarah/Judy (based mostly on the voice on the phone in Episode 2 IIRC), why does she want Mr. C dead when he's already looking for her? To be reunited with BOB? Are we to assume then that BOB doesn't want to be reunited with mommy? If so why are they looking for The Experiment? To kill her? Considering how fucking powerful these beings seemingly are, they've got really roundabout ways of trying to get shit done. Personally I think it has to be Jefferies because if it was Sarah/Judy that means the coordinates Ray gives to Mr. C are from Sarah/Judy and match the ones Teapot Jefferies gives Mr. C for where to find Judy, which would mean not only do both Jefferies and Sarah/Judy want him dead, but they both are going to use the exact same trick to do it.

This dovetails into the coordinates issue. To my knowledge, the three people that give Mr. C coordinates are Ray, Teapot Jefferies, and tulpa Diane. Based on what Mr. C says to Richard Horne, it seems logical that two coordinates point to the rock and one points to Twin Peaks. We know the coordinates on Ruth Davenport's body lead to Twin peaks because tulpa Diane plugs them into her phone, it shows Twin Peaks. So that must mean the two fake coordinates are from Ray and Jefferies and would have to mean Teapot Jefferies hired Ray, which means he can talk to the outside world somehow, which means he could have contacted Old King Cole and saved everybody a lot of time instead of faffing about with Ray by giving the information to someone competent. Then again, Cole had those same coordinates for...days(?)...and did fuck all with them until he gets word from Dougie Coop that he's headed to Twin Peaks, so maybe Cole isn't so competent afterall. I mean neither Cole or Albert plugged those into Google Maps and said to themselves, "Oh yeah, Twin Peaks. Isn't that where all the weird Blue Rose type shit went down? Maybe we should head there instead of sitting in this hotel in South Dakota for another week..."

I don't mind a nebulous ending and I don't need the entire story wrapped up with a nice bow on top, but when half the characters in the show are otherworldly beings with power and knowledge we supposedly can't comprehend and yet go about their business in the most ludicrously stupid ways, it beggars belief.

Don't even get me started on how asinine it is that Briggs could foresee future events to the point that he'd leave all the clues for Bobby to lead him and the crew to Jack Rabbit's Palace at exactly the time Naido lands (and oh yeah he maybe somehow knew where the 315 key would be) but couldn't foresee that entrusting a pair of dolts that stumbled upon "The Zone" like Hastings and Davenport to get him coordinates would lead to his death. I mean, come on.
 
I meant specifically the mysterious millionaire/billionaire, I can't remember which anymore. What's his role? What did he expect to get out of it? Early on there was multiple theories (Jefferies, imposter Jefferies, Audrey) and nothing. Also I don't think it's a given the box was meant for Cooper. If the box was meant for Cooper, why did it send him right to a place where he could easily enter Dougie? If the plan is to send him into Dougie and then have Dougie killed, after about the second murder failure, why doesn't Mr. C just go and plug Dougie himself instead of sending nitwits to do it over and over? Was it really more important to track down Ray than kill the ONE person capable of sending him back? In the grand scheme it's not super important, but it's just one of the weird little things that never gets resolved that bothers me slightly.

What frustrated me about that was they managed to find photographic evidence of BadCoop and some dude (or possibly dudes) stood by the box, and the mother/monster, yet somehow nobody flagged up the photograph of the black suited man floating in the box to the FBI.
 

Slaythe

Member
I was thinking about how grim "Richard" is, and it dawned on me that Cooper consciously sacrificed his joie de vivre to create Dougie 2.0.

He realized Janey E needs a loving husband, and Sonny Jim needs a caring dad. He gave them those positive aspects of himself because he didn't need them where he was going.

That is not at all what happened.

He was still himself when he came out of the Lodge and he clearly stated crossing over would lead to them being different.
 

sonto340

Member
Don't even get me started on how asinine it is that Briggs could foresee future events to the point that he'd leave all the clues for Bobby to lead him and the crew to Jack Rabbit's Palace at exactly the time Naido lands (and oh yeah he maybe somehow knew where the 315 key would be) but couldn't foresee that entrusting a pair of dolts that stumbled upon "The Zone" like Hastings and Davenport to get him coordinates would lead to his death. I mean, come on.
I have a lot of problems with stuff being muddy this season but this ain’t one. Briggs job was to monitor supernatural activity at his station. It’s implied he was in contact with the lodge, and would likely know only what the lodge tells him. Him dying is probably monumentally important to this whole scenario playing out in the way the Fireman intends. It absolutely adds up that he wouldn’t find out about his death or (knowing the man the major is) did know but understood that it had to be this way.

That is not at all what happened.

He was still himself when he came out of the Lodge and he clearly stated crossing over would lead to them being different.
Correct me if I’m wrong as I haven’t watched the finale since the day after it aired, but didn’t we not see the Tulpa of Coop be created until 18? The entirety of 18 has Cooper starting his transformation into “Richard.” I’d hardly say he was being himself in the car ride with Diane after the curtain call for example. As far as I can remember we only get Cooper in his “new” state after we see the Tulpa being created and nothing else.
 

g11

Member
What frustrated me about that was they managed to find photographic evidence of BadCoop and some dude (or possibly dudes) stood by the box, and the mother/monster, yet somehow nobody flagged up the photograph of the black suited man floating in the box to the FBI.

I can't remember, did they also have photos of The Experiment in the box? I think so but I'm not sure. If so that's even more ridiculous now that I think about since Cooper would have been in the box like what, 5 minutes before, tops? Come on now!

I have a lot of problems with stuff being muddy this season but this ain't one. Briggs job was to monitor supernatural activity at his station. It's implied he was in contact with the lodge, and would likely know only what the lodge tells him. Him dying is probably monumentally important to this whole scenario playing out in the way the Fireman intends. It absolutely adds up that he wouldn't find out about his death or (knowing the man the major is) did know but understood that it had to be this way.

Ehhh, I guess that's possible if you buy into the "It's a trap!" theory someone linked earlier, although that theory suggests that Jefferies, Briggs, Cole and whoever else is in on it aren't particularly concerned with Mr. C and Brigg's death only sets in motion Mr. C's search for Judy, yet is completely inconsequential to Cooper going back in time to save Laura as far as I can work out. Unless Cooper is somehow unable to do so until Mr. C and BOB are taken care of.

I have to say though, I like that theory about the Odessa/EP18 world being a trap for Judy for many reasons, not the least of which is I've been wondering for a little while now if maybe Mrs. Treamond/Chalfont and her grandson aren't potentially a representation/manifestation of Judy and BOB.

I'm also finding myself wondering now, if it was in fact Mr. C who took Diane into the convenience store and replaced her with tulpa Diane, why leave her...wherever the hell she was as Naido instead of killing her? Mr. C has proven time and time again he has zero qualms with killing, so why leave Diane in there? Can you only have a tulpa of a person who is still alive, maybe? That's the only thing I can work out.

Another thing I noticed after rewatching some episodes to check stuff, the box Cooper and Naido climb out of with the big bell-shaped thing on top, there seems to be hundreds of those in The Fireman's place in Episode 17.

cr7ssUr.png

M9qJ7Js.png


It makes me think that maybe each of those things is a different dimension and that The Fireman exist to monitor them all from The Zone or the White Lodge (wherever he is) and whenever he needs to intervene, that's when the alarm goes off, like in Episode 8 where the Trinity bomb goes off and The Experiment appears and barfs out BOB.
 
I can't remember, did they also have photos of The Experiment in the box? I think so but I'm not sure. If so that's even more ridiculous now that I think about since Cooper would have been in the box like what, 5 minutes before, tops? Come on now!

Yep. That's what triggered the now-legendary "what the hell?" from Gordon.
 

Slaythe

Member
Correct me if I’m wrong as I haven’t watched the finale since the day after it aired, but didn’t we not see the Tulpa of Coop be created until 18? The entirety of 18 has Cooper starting his transformation into “Richard.” I’d hardly say he was being himself in the car ride with Diane after the curtain call for example. As far as I can remember we only get Cooper in his “new” state after we see the Tulpa being created and nothing else.

What new state ? He was still smiling and still had clear emotions after he came out. He was concerned about what could happen.

He wasn't anywhere near as cold and distant as he was after they crossed through. It also makes his comment about them being different after crossing worthless if Dougie caused him to be this way.
 

Big Nikus

Member
Correct me if I’m wrong as I haven’t watched the finale since the day after it aired, but didn’t we not see the Tulpa of Coop be created until 18? The entirety of 18 has Cooper starting his transformation into “Richard.” I’d hardly say he was being himself in the car ride with Diane after the curtain call for example. As far as I can remember we only get Cooper in his “new” state after we see the Tulpa being created and nothing else.

Yeah, I think it's important that episode 18 starts with the re-creation of Dougie.
 

I like this. There's a bit too much Judy guesswork for me to buy into it 100%, but it does a good job of connecting the various dots in a-b-c order, and making sense of the morphing motel/car, power surge at the end, Laura's WHOOSH, the Fireman's actions, "the unofficial version," etc.

Still hard for me to reconcile "Cooper won" theories with my immediate gut reactions to Part 18, but Judy corrupting the "Cage universe" breaking Cooper's mind right at the end would be the best so far.

Also feel like this is the first one I've read that ties in Cooper suddenly being able to control the Lodge curtains because his shadow self was back.


God, this was such a crazy way to end the show.
 

Flipyap

Member
What new state ? He was still smiling and still had clear emotions after he came out. He was concerned about what could happen.

He wasn't anywhere near as cold and distant as he was after they crossed through. It also makes his comment about them being different after crossing worthless if Dougie caused him to be this way.
As if he didn't have reasons to be concerned when he found himself all alone in an unfamiliar world with only the vaguest idea of what he's supposed to do. He speaks in a deeply caring tone when he meets Carrie and clearly expresses emotions (if only pleasant emotions count, he's visibly amused when Carrie turns out to be a bit of a moron).
This is the same Cooper we saw in all the otherworldly scenes. He's more focused, but he's also clearly lost.
 

Blader

Member
I meant specifically the mysterious millionaire/billionaire, I can't remember which anymore. What's his role? What did he expect to get out of it? Early on there was multiple theories (Jefferies, imposter Jefferies, Audrey) and nothing.

I assumed, after that the photo was shown, that the millionaire/billionaire referred to in the first episode was actually Mr. C. The guy has been building an international criminal enterprise for over 20 years, I don't think it's a stretch to think he has accumulated millions of dollars over that span. He seems to have enough money to not care about getting any more.

g11 said:
If you assume, like many here did, that the person posing as Jefferies was Sarah/Judy (based mostly on the voice on the phone in Episode 2 IIRC), why does she want Mr. C dead when he's already looking for her? To be reunited with BOB? Are we to assume then that BOB doesn't want to be reunited with mommy?

BOB resides in Mr. C, but they're still separate creatures. Assuming that the fake Jeffries in part 2 was Sarah/Judy, then her goal is to separate the two: put Mr. C back in the lodge, and put BOB back in her. So it's not necessarily that BOB doesn't want to be reunited with Judy, but that Mr. C is keeping him from her.
 

Blader

Member
Also feel like this is the first one I've read that ties in Cooper suddenly being able to control the Lodge curtains because his shadow self was back.

heh, that was one one of my favorite low key moments of the finale. No longer an inmate, now a guard who can move freely.
 
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