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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
jeff_rigby
Banned
Nearly everyone has interpreted your quotes incorrectly as meaning the Launch consoles can't support UHD. You have said as much yet we have a lab report saying they can.
To answer two questions with one answer. ALL UHD Media uses the same software stack, if you support one you can support the others. Vidpath the same, likely ooVoo too as well as third party apps and DLNA.
The PS4 still is not DLNA certified yet the PS3 is and we know Vidipath requires DLNA and Sony has WMDRM in the intellectual notice so they are going to support Vidipath. What do they have in common The native library for HTML5 <video> which is supposed to be finished by the end of September.
I can only guess at this. For sure Microsoft and Sony both have not announced UHD capability for the Launch consoles. It would be a selling point for whoever does, so there must be a NDA to not do so. This NDA influenced Ito's statements as I have previously stated.
A lab report on UHD media power consumption must play UHD media. If they were through they tested ALL UHD media including streaming and UHD BLu-ray. The Lab report does not say what UHD media was used.
The chart you posted was on power caps. The Lab test just attests that the consoles complied with HD and UHD media power caps. Full screen mode after the firmware update and in the test, full screen media could be with GPU off and 20- 30 watts not 90 - 70 watts; less than the caps means it complies.
Adam Tyner
Member
Nearly everyone was saying that before I even entered into the fray, and they'd be saying it if I weren't here either. They've told you that on the 30,000 other message boards where you've been recycling the same arguments as well, and I'm not even on the majority of them!
If you're asking me to apologize for quoting the EVP who heads up Sony's PlayStation hardware saying that the launch PS4 cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, I won't.
If you're asking me to apologize for quoting a longtime Microsoft employee -- someone intimately involved in all nature of Xbox One video output and someone with a long list of credentials about video codecs -- when he says that the launch Xbox One cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, I won't.
Neither of them have been contradicted, seeing as how UHD has been out there for more than two years, neither console can play UHD media (streaming or physical) at this moment, and there is no indication of this changing, at least not for the launch consoles.
No, we don't.
...and yet there's no indication that this happened!
The report references DVDs, traditional HD Blu-ray discs, and HD streaming media. HD != UHD. There is no mention of anything in any way "UHD" aside from a general heading for these new consoles, and its definition for an Ultra HD console does not require the consoles to even playback UHD video...just to have the capability. That capability doesn't even involve how UHD media would be made available in practice.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Your correct, UHD media was not tested. If I understand the testing criteria, the LAB purchases consoles on the open market to make tests and none of these have been firmware updated to support. UHD Media. They do not use consoles provided by Sony or Microsoft nor do they use anything but the software and games on the market.
Adam Tyner
Member
Show me where it says "Tier 2" means "Ultra HD (and only UHD) media playback".
The Xbox One S releases before then, and we've already had at least one higher-up from Microsoft say that he's watched an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc on it, so obviously that's not the holdup.
It's true that you stated that previously, but every last bit of that is an unsubstantiated assumption. Spears from Microsoft and Ito from Sony both offered very similar reasons why their companies' consoles can't play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs (drive isn't capable; no dedicated HEVC decoder). Does your magical NDA mandate that Spears and Ito have to tell the same lie in order to cover up future UHD playback? Why are they allowed to talk about UHD playback in not-yet-released consoles but not in the launch consoles? What would such an NDA even be protecting, exactly? That's conspiracy theory nonsense.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Your correct, UHD media was not tested. This paper is the 2015 report and the media power Tier for UHD starts in 2016 and in the First paper it is Tier 2 while this paper has Tier 2 as HD media. .
Show me where it says "Tier 2" means "Ultra HD (and only UHD) media playback".
If I understand the testing criteria, the LAB purchases consoles on the open market to make tests and none of these have been firmware updated to support. UHD Media. They do not use consoles provided by Sony or Microsoft nor do they use anything but the software and games on the market.
I fall back to now three letters stating the Launch consoles are UHD Capable and a steering committee discussing that third letter, a Compliance LAB report, being staffed by Sony and Mcirosoft employees.
GAME CONSOLE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT (VA)
SECOND STEERING COMMITTEE MEETING
Friday 3 June 2016
Cambre Associates, Rue Defacqz 52, 1050 Brussels
Adam Tyner
Member
So I'm no longer 0% accurate?!
Why don't you fall back on something that says more than "UHD Capable" as a general heading? Like, actual playback, for instance? Specific details on how this works?
I put more stock in what Ito, Spears, and basically everyone else says than a few vague EU letters where UHD capability isn't even the topic of discussion.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Adam, the wording of the Lab report makes it clear that UHD Game Console is a primary attribute in describing the Game Consoles:
This is the 2015 report and does not test the UHD media power mode or even mention it in the report because as the first paper attests, Tier 2 UHD media power starts in 2016. Tier 2 in the 2015 report is about HD media while in the first letter HD media is Tier 1 and UHD media is Tier 2. This is why I was confused and first assumed they tested UHD Media which you correctly pointed out was in error.
The 2016 report will have UHD media tests for compliance. The UHD Game Consoles, all of them, have to implement UHD media support in 2016 because it's already part of the agreed upon timetable. In the 2016 report it will likely have UHD tests for up to 6 UHD consoles with the 7th in 2017 (XB1 Scorpio) and next power tier starts 2019 which could be next generation Consoles.
WELCOME TO THE GAME CONSOLE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT where all this can be found
First letter outlining the Voluntary power criteria April 2015
2015 Compliance report May 10, 2016
SECOND STEERING COMMITTEE MEETING June 2016 Reviewing the 2015 Compliance report.
Ito and Spears comments deny the game consoles are UHD capable and are in direct conflict with the Official letters and reports I have cited which have the following people attesting to the accuracy:
http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Minutes_Steering_Committee_3_June_2016.pdf said:
The MS VP statement that the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray you dismiss even though his statement is not in conflict with the above. You are picking and choosing only those that support your position rather than trying to find out why there is a conflict with facts for some of them. The statement that the XB1 Slim will be the first game console to support UHD Blu-ray can be accurate but only by two months or less with a firmware update for the three original UHD Game consoles. This is not in conflict with the MS VP statement.
I have given specific details on how UHD media will be supported but that is speculation built up knowing the hardware being used (ARM Trustzone and Xtensa DSP) and how AMD uses them with holes filled in with ARM Trustzone and Playready papers.
1) They have to implement UHD media support in 2016 because it's already part of the agreed upon timetable.
2) OpenVX is needed for VR and it is based on Accelerators (Xtensa DSP) in Southbridge and a firmware update for VR has to occur before VR is supported on the PS4.
October before the VR release on the 13th?
JaseC, it's two days later than you chose and I'd prefer to break up the bet into three parts HDMI 2 support, HEVC support and UHD Drive support with the first two by October 13th. The drive support by the end of the year as Sony may opt to wait to support UHD Blu-ray digital bridge. $100 makes it easier for me. You can pay me the $66 by check now as I have already won those parts or you can wait and deduct the $33 if they don't support UHD Blu-ray.
Sounds unfair doesn't it. What you cited of my post did not mention UHD Blu-ray and eliminating an Announcement of UHD Blu-ray support is equally unfair. When has always been an issue for me and I am about 10% accurate as to when which is terrible.
Does the bet include all the consoles that have not received updates and have already shipped; 2013 and 2015 PS4? Because the 2015 PS4 shipped after the UHD BLu-ray drive specs were published and within two months of UHD players shipping which means the drive was available for the 2015 PS4 if it required a special drive. Adam seems to think they won't support UHD media till the "Slim, Neo or Scorpio" models as it would confuse consumers so if you believe him it's a safe bet for you.
Side bet on PS4 Firmware 4.0 being touted in China and Japan as 4 + 4 = lucky #8
Side bet on DLNA 4.0 being advertised on the box, Logo for DLNA 4
Side bet on ooVoo coming with Firmware 4.0, Vidipath/DLNA, serious browser update including HTML5 <video>
Side bet PS3 getting Firmware update 5.0 3+5=8 with Playready embedded and Vidipath/DLNA updates and DLNA 4 logo on the box
Adam Tyner
Member
The difference: Ito and Spears were asked about Ultra HD playback, and they're commenting on that specifically.
Literally the only resources you can find over the past couple of years making any reference to Ultra HD capability in launch consoles are these EU power consumption letters, and all they say is "UHD Capable" a couple of times. You weave these elaborate stories around them, like "well, it says that they were going to be firmware updated in January, but that had to be pushed back" when not a word of that is in these documents. They're about power consumption, not Ultra HD playback.
Those documents make no claims about UHD capability being added via firmware. Those documents make no claims about what types of UHD content will or could be made available. Those documents say nothing about a dedicated HEVC decoder the way you claim they do. Those documents make no mention whatsoever of "UHD" except as a heading that encompasses the Xbox One and PS4. They also explicitly define "UHD Capable" in a way that can be technically correct yet never allow for Netflix UHD, Ultra HD Blu-ray, etc.
So, yes, I place more stock in people directly involved in this implementation speaking about why UHD playback is not possible than EU power consumption letters that aren't about UHD playback in the first place. If people directly involved in this implementation said why UHD playback is possible (or even coming!), I'd put a lot of stock in that, but it's been dead silence on that front.
More critically, even if the documents themselves are not dismissed out of hand, they still say nothing about Ultra HD Blu-ray, which is the point of this thread!
Please point me to the part of the document where it says that the launch consoles will be firmware updated in 2016 and tested for UHD capability specifically.
He said that three years ago, and no one at Microsoft has reaffirmed it since. In fact, multiple people from Microsoft have said the exact opposite: that support is not possible. How am I guilty of picking and choosing if you're disregarding what so many other people at Microsoft and Sony have said?
You are in every way more guilty of what you're accusing me of than I could ever be!
No, you haven't.
If you're going to make bold statements like:
...stand by them, coward, or don't spout off bullshit like that at all. There's not a word in that saying "well, maybe by the second week of October; I don't really know" or even "this is what I think will happen". If you have zero confidence in the dates you state, don't state dates at all or at least present your speculation as such. It's common sense. Why is this so far out of your reach?
You titled this thread "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013'", so obviously it would have to include those.
I'm still waiting for your answer on what your magical NDA is meant to protect (since the NDA you invented only covers firmware updates and not the capability in new models) and why Spears and Ito are both covering up UHD BD capability in launch consoles with the same "lies" (no dedicated HEVC decoder; drive is not UHD BD capable).
Sorry, but I'm not allowing for any wiggle room. In recent weeks you've attempted to shift the focus away from UHD BD support to any sort of UHD support at all, but continue to claim that the PS4 and X1 can support UHD BDs. Either you're still confident about the latter or you're not. A bet that has more than two variables for right/wrong -- either something is/will be the case or it isn't/won't -- isn't much of a bet at all.
I don't think it unfair. The first line of your OP is "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016", and less than three weeks ago you had this exchange:
It was about UHD BD support and in fact you doubled down on it, but now, apparently, you've change your mind. Look, I can only surmise from your response that you're less certain about October than you used to be, so in the interest of fairness, I'd be happy to meet halfway and change October 10th @ 12:05am PT to January 1st @ 12:00am PT, thereby giving you the rest of 2016... but if you're no longer confident about UHD BD support-enabling firmware updates hitting this year at all, then by all means, refuse the bet. I'm not going to think any less of you if you'd rather not put money on the very premise of this thread if it's not as solid as you originally believed it to be.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Fine $100 US it is; UHD blu-ray support for the PS4 2013 and 2015 models by Jan 2017.
How about $10 each for the 6 side bets?
Side bet on PS4 Firmware 4.0 being touted in China and Japan as 4 + 4 = lucky #8
Side bet on ooVoo coming with Firmware 4.0,
Vidipath/DLNA,
serious browser update including HTML5 <video>
Side bet PS3 getting Firmware update 5.0 3+5=8 with Playready embedded
PS3 Vidipath/DLNA updates
Give me odds on Sony writing the UHD Blu-ray player for the XB1?
If you have any spare money checkout buying Sony stock soon, it's about $29 and should go to $45 or higher. Sony revised their net profit up from 8 to 10% and say 2017 should have the highest gross since 1996. 2017 is a key date for ATSC 3 and the cable industry moving to all IPTV.
What impact will Sony having 40 million UHD blu-ray players on the market have on the Sony Stock price?
Adam Tyner
Member
What about the Xbox One?
...and what of the X1? You've been saying both will receive UHD BD support in 2016.
As tempting as that is, I'm only interested in the premise of the thread, not the various other tangents you've brought up throughout.
jeff_rigby
Banned
$100 for it too?
Adam Tyner
Member
I doubt it'd have much. They're obviously not getting any direct revenue from a firmware update alone. Only a certain percentage of users would take advantage of the capability. It's not going to really drive hardware sales if they have new models on the market with this functionality already in place. Sony only stands to benefit so much from sales of other labels' releases. They're not the only disc replicator in town. They're not exactly building a new market; it's more likely that they're transitioning Blu-ray customers towards Ultra HD Blu-ray rather than convincing someone who wasn't buying BDs to buy into UHD BD. The rate of consumers abandoning Blu-ray in favor of streaming/downloads likely exceeds those willing to transition towards UHD BD; they'd be slowing the loss but not eliminating it. Their home video arm hasn't shown tremendous enthusiasm for UHD BDs thus far, seemingly far more interested in UHD streaming/sales. It would obviously be a great thing for Ultra HD Blu-ray as a whole, but the benefit to Sony is unlikely to meaningfully move the needle on their stock price.
Since there's no indication of such a firmware update existing anyway, though...
We'll just stick with the terms as outlined in my earlier post albeit with an adjusted deadline. That is:
... are you up for an AUD$100 wager? If, comeOctober 10th at 12:05am PT (that's the second Monday of October)January 1st at 12:00am PT (that's 01/01/2017), no [UHD BD support-enabling] update has presented itself for either [the "launch" PS4 or X1], you lose; if both consoles have been updated in such a fashion by that time, I lose; and if one console receives such an update but the other does not, we'll call it a tie. Announcements of the updates do not count; they have to be released by the time the countdown timer below hits zero, since that's what you've been asserting in earnest.
The PS4 has had HTML5 <video> support since the thing launched. Please elaborate.
You're going to put money on launch consoles actually playing UHD media based solely on their alleged capability? What about marketing? The Xbox One S needs to sell, and while it's an attractive size and price point for those without one, the fact that it will play UHD Media is likely a huge factor towards its sales right now than if launch consoles suddenly became able to play UHD media. The PS4 "Neo" project is going to have some information revealed about it later, but "4K gaming that won't have exclusives or hinder the OG PS4 experience" won't convince everyone to jump on that bandwagon right away, myself included. If my OG PS4 suddenly was capable of playing UHD media, I may skip the next two PS4 hardware revisions as I'm completely fine playing my games at 1080p without too much of a dip in framerate.
These companies want to sell the hardware they're developing. I don't see them unlocking something as marketable as UHD media playback on any of the systems prior to the models they promote as capable out of the box.
Jeff> A simple question for you.
The PS4 was originally promised as supporting 4K movie playback (before launch) via Sony's own Video Unlimited (now PlayStation Video) service. Despite the service being available it has not yet made it to the PS4.
To be clear, Sony owns the service and Sony Pictures content makes up the bulk of the 4K catalog, so Sony can waive certain requirements in the playback chain (such as HDCP 2.2). There is nothing stopping Sony, for example, from making its own titles available to rent or buy in 4K over a HDMI 1.4 connection with no HDCP protection should it want to do so.
Despite all this (and despite the original promise), the only way to access PlayStation Video 4K content is via a Sony 4K TV with the app built-in or via a Sony 4K media player which retails for $699.99.
If the launch PS4 is fully UHD capable right now, as you claim, then why has Sony not allowed for 4K playback from PlayStation Video?
Not supporting Netflix and other services can come down to legal issues around not properly supporting DRM requirements and other bits, but those aren't a concern for a content pipeline that is 100% Sony.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Run the HTML5 test in the browser. No HTML5 <video> MSE EME
The PS4 does not have certified DLNA, it has no DTCP-IP
Apps like Netflix are not using the PS4 software stack and embedded Playready
jeff_rigby
Banned
Forbes article from a couple of months ago which echos the sentiment and arguments in denial of the PS4 and XB1 launch consoles being UHD Capable. This is the guy who wrote the original article stating the Launch consoles couldn't support UHD for Netflix and Netflix stated that new consoles were coming at the end of the year (2015) that could.
Told You So: Now Even Sony And Microsoft Think The PS4 And Xbox One Are Already Out Of Date
Left a comment and a correction with PROOF, interesting to see what he says.
Told You So: Now Even Sony And Microsoft Think The PS4 And Xbox One Are Already Out Of Date
Left a comment and a correction with PROOF, interesting to see what he says.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The Voluntary power compliance letter to the EU was dated April 2015 and later letters from 2016 confirm they were talking about the 2013 launch consoles being UHD capable. RE: your marketing reason to not update the launch consoles. The XB1 Slim and Neo launching this year were in planning and implementation at least 2 years prior to August 2016 for the XB1 slim and November 2016 for the NEO. I.E. They knew the new iterations were coming and they knew the launch consoles were UHD Capable. They will update the launch consoles as they always planned to do or they wouldn't have included them in the APRIL 2015 letter.
The Carrizo APU and Polaris dGPU are the first AMD products that with Windows 10 will be able to support UHD DRM media and Polaris just shipped. Was there an agreement with all parties to delay firmware updating the Launch consoles till PCs could support UHD media? Is AMD counting on this to help sell Polaris dGPUs @ $199.00. When is the next major Windows 10 update?
Adam Tyner
Member
Probably for the best. It'll just be the "...but the EU Letters!!!!!" show until then.
jeff_rigby
Banned
AMD's Carrizo APU and Polaris dGPU are the least expensive way to get UHD media support with Windows 10. The Polaris dGPU has a UVD with HEVC support, same as Carrizo and the XB1 and PS4 Launch game consoles are UHD capable with firmware update. I believe the Game consoles are waiting till PCs can support UHD with Carrizo and Polaris before they get their firmware updates. Polaris just launched.
The Next Windows 10 update is August 2 and the XB1 slim is shipping in August. The XB1 Launch may get it's firmware update then so you may not have to wait for October. The PS4 will probably wait till October as in the past they have never released a open source feature till it's "official". Sony is writing a UHD Blu-ray application for the PC and has a licence for a PC UHD drive.
AMD stated they use the same hardware for HEVC that the XB1 uses. Polaris has a UVD and VCE as does Carrizo. Do they have a VCE that supports HEVC for HD encode too? An ARM block that can now use GDDR5 too?
Adam Tyner
Member
So has basically everything from AMD for the past ten years.
No, they haven't.
AMD said in May 2015, for instance, that the first dedicated HEVC decoders in its hardware would be coming to market in late 2015. The Xbox One launched in 2013. Therefore, the launch Xbox One does not and cannot have the same HEVC solution.
jeff_rigby
Banned
https://community.amd.com/community/amd-corporate/blog said:
Who would have thought that the 2013 XB1 has the same HEVC technology that the 2016 Carrizo has. I researched this and it forms part of my understanding of the XB1 Launch console being UHD Capable. The difference in a HEVC HD or UHD codec is the duty cycle/power of the codec hardware accelerator the software is running on.http://www.techspot.com/article/1131-hevc-h256-enconding-playback/ said:
In AMD APUs the UVD uses Xtensa DSP accelerators which are also used for gesture recognition and in Polaris, the PS4, XB1 Slim and Scorpio as well as Carrizio will also be used for OpenVX/vision processing.
Carrizio has two VCE encoders, one for AVC (h.264) and one for HEVC which confirms they are hardware based. VCE does not use Xtensa DSP processors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Coding_Engine said:
Adam Tyner
Member
No one, because it doesn't.
You're parsing that sentence incorrectly. The Xbox One does not have the 6th-gen processor in question. AMD straight-up said that they didn't have dedicated HEVC decoding in-hardware prior to late 2015. The Xbox One was released two years before that. The XB1 uses AVC for streaming. This is extremely well-documented.
As for the other article, it doesn't include the Xbox One in the list of devices with dedicated HEVC decoding blocks. That the Xbox One is capable of decoding HEVC to a certain extent is not in dispute. That it's capable of Ultra HD Blu-ray-quality video is another matter.
jeff_rigby
Banned
There is an AND in between the two statements and the subject is h.264 and HEVC. The HEVC technology is also in dGPUs from 2014 and the XB1 and PS4 have features out of the 2014 roadmap.
"one of the first things we find on AMDs list of features for the GCN 1.2 instruction set is improved compute task scheduling This is needed for VR where moving the head very quickly generates portions of the new screen that come into view and it's also needed for GPU compute. This is the reason for the 8 ACE blocks in the PS4 APU which is carried through to Polaris which is designed for VR. Polaris has 4 ACE blocks and two improved hardware schedulers that each do the duties of two ACE blocks and more.
Adam, the XB1 and PS4 APUs are semi custom and they took features they wanted that would show up in Future AMD GPUs and incorporated them in the 2013 launch APU. This is clearly the UVD 6 and HEVC VCE as well as for the PS4, the 8 ACE controllers. Polaris has a powerful UVD 6 to be used for HEVC and OpenVX for VR which the PS4 also needs for VR.
"New 16 bit floating point and integer instructions for low power GPU compute and Media processing" This is the Xtensa processor block used for UVD and low power GPGPU.
UVD 6 is not the 6th generation processor, the 6th generation APU has a UVD 6 Xtensa DSP processor which is also the Media processor and the low power GPGPU compute processor found in 2014 announced GPUs that shipped in 2015.
UHD Capable has a UHD HEVC decoder in the TEE which is a Xtensa DSP block in AMD APUs and dGPUs which is also needed for OpenVX which a VR platform must support.
Adam Tyner
Member
I agree, and that seems to be the source of your confusion.
LightningXCE
Member
I really love moving goalposts.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Adam, where did the VCE encoder in the XB1 that can handle HEVC come from? In AMD dGPUs and the Carrizo, VCE 3 (HEVC hardware encoder) is paired with UVD 6 (Universal video decoder that handles multiple formats including HEVC). The VCE is not in the TEE and is not Xtensa processor based.
So the 2013 XB1 has a VCE from 2014 (GCN 1.2) and later dGPUs and the 2016 Carrizo. But it's not possible to have a UVD 6 from a 2014 (GCN 1.2) dGPU?
Maybe this makes it easier to understand: "Sharing the same proven technology as found in Xbox One, AMD-based PCs include built-in support for the industrys most advanced video acceleration technologies like H.264 and H.265 (HEVC) enabling AMD APU-powered PCs to handle demanding videos, movies, and TV content at the highest resolutions HD, and beyond." It's about AVC and HEVC, HD and beyond
All I took out was 6th generation processor which is Carrizo which has VCE 3 and UVD6. These are the advanced video acceleration technologies.
Adam Tyner
Member
Other than you, who's saying there's a dedicated hardware HEVC encoder in the launch Xbox One? The Xbox One records and streams in AVC.
To recap, Microsoft and AMD engineered a console that struggled to deliver native 1080p gameplay at launch, but they made it a point to include a dedicated encoder/decoder for a codec that hadn't been finalized yet three years and counting before that functionality would ever be used, and multiple years before it would be used in any other AMD devices? No, I don't buy it.
I don't believe that poorly constructed sentence is expressing what you're interpreting, but the good news is that this should be so widely documented that you shouldn't have any trouble finding another source.
jeff_rigby
Banned
HEVC game streaming to PC requires low latency and it can not use the GPU or CPU. This is why VCE 3 is in AMD dGPUs and APU and is a Hardware codec encoder for both AVC and HEVC.
from the 2010 leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint:
It is touted as a media hub and living room entertainment box with DVR supporting XTV which starts with ATSC 2. ATSC 2 has been skipped in favor of ATSC 3 which requires HEVC. If you walk through the presentation it is as much about TV as it is about games.
Sony has said that they are counting on 4K to become profitable. That is not 4K gaming, that is 4K media and the for pay services they can provide. Playstation Vue requires HEVC, Game streaming requires HEVC for the same reason. Google developed their own VP9 4K codec now used for HD to reduce bandwidth. Netflix is going to use HEVC to reduce bandwidth for 1080P media.
Adam Tyner
Member
Right, although the Xbox One uses AVC for recording/streaming, not HEVC. What do you have other than the PowerPoint slide indicating otherwise? Assuming the slide is accurate, how do we know they're referring specifically to the launch Xbox One? Even if all iterations of the Xbox One are capable of encoding certain sources with HEVC (say, 8-bit, 1080p gameplay), which is a significant assumption, how is that a guarantee that it can decode 10-bit, high bitrate, 2160p video from Ultra HD Blu-ray discs?
jeff_rigby
Banned
They are two separate points that negate the argument that it was too early to have HEVC hardware codecs (VCE3) which should be harder to implement than a Hybrid HEVC codec using Xtensa DSP processors which UVD 6 does and is paired with VCE3 in 2014 and later dGPUs and Carrizo. .
exmachina64
Banned
from the 2010 leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint:
It is touted as a media hub and living room entertainment box with DVR supporting XTV which starts with ATSC 2. ATSC 2 has been skipped in favor of ATSC 3 which requires HEVC. If you walk through the presentation it is as much about TV as it is about games
Except that's a marketing slide from 2010 and Microsoft's plan to dominate the living room with media offerings went up in a puff of smoke.
DangerMouse
Member
Unfinished software standards in the media player currently contained in the PS4 (and being built for the PS4) is something that could maybe still be potentially preventing them from doing this if it truly turns out that the hardware is capable (which I have no idea for sure). Their 4K Media player is a hardware player and also has the new HDMI/HDCP built in, whereas even last gen the PS3 accomplished some of it's unusually impressive media features via its software (and probably the grunt of the Cell), however many of those standards have supposedly changed and Sony abandoned the hardware their old player was built for.
And they are not going to make their content playable without the usual protection schemes even if that would be a shortcut...
The only way they'll do it is if they can implement a software solution that can mimic the newer HDMI/HDCP 2.2, like they were able to implement a software solution to allow the PS3 to play 3D Blu-ray discs while most Blu-ray players could not be updated with just software to do it. Everyone else had to go buy 3D Blu-ray players.
It's clear, and very strange, that even after all this time the current PS4 media player is unusually barebones for a Sony media player let alone the successor to the PS3's media features, which is very unlike Sony, since they are all about media. The only feasible reason (aside from possibly budget allocation) for this is that something in implementation is delaying them from making a more fully featured player and it seems like they don't want to make a more fully featured "stopgap player" based on old standards just for the old formats while they wait since the last update to the PS4 media player software a while back seemed like clearly just a stopgap update just to make the current player compatible with a few more formats (like the widely requested MKV that XB1 implemented) while they wait for something. Whether that more fully featured media player will take until the PS5 is a valid question though. Now that these consoles don't seem like they will reset or leave x86 like they did in the transition from PS3/360, I would be surprised if Sony doesn't eventually make the media player for their consoles going forward closer to on par with the one they built for PS3, even if it takes time waiting for the new standards to be completed and not talking about it while they work on it since the old one was built for PS3's unique hardware that they are not using anymore.
Their hardware in the box didn't change though so presumably it should still have what it was going to have hardware wise. That's still the same hardware that was intended to be able to support all of those backlashed policies and DRM, and media-heavy moves. It should still have the same chip features it always did.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Summary:
LG - Hitachi and Sony have a licence for a PC UHD drive.
Embedded/Game Console platforms do not need a licence for the Drive
Sony has a BDA UHD BLu-ray licence for Embedded/Game console and PC applications
Cyberlink has a BDA UHD Blu-ray licence for PCs.
Carrizo, Polaris and a number of AMD dGPUs (GCN 1.2) have VCE 3 (AVC and HEVC hardware encoder) and UVD 6 (Trustzone TEE managed) codec decoder Hybrid Software- accelerated Codec using Xtensa accelerators for multiple formats including HEVC. HDCP 2.2 takes place in the TEE so if the motherboard or dGPU has a HDMI port it likely maps HDCP 2.2 to the HDMI port and is firmware update-able to support HDMI 2 and maybe DP 1.4. I.E. They can support UHD Media including UHD BLu-ray with Windows 10. The Trustzone TEE needs to have a trusted boot and all Media decryption (AACS2) and encryption (HDCP 2.2) takes place in the that same TEE.
In AMD APUs the UVD uses Xtensa DSP accelerators which are also used for gesture recognition and in Polaris, the PS4, PS4 Neo, XB1 Slim and XB1 Scorpio as well as Carrizo will also be used for OpenVX/vision processing.
Carrizio has two VCE encoders, one for AVC (h.264) and one for HEVC which confirms they are hardware based. VCE does not use Xtensa DSP processors.
The XB1 uses the same technology that AMD uses in Carrizo which has a VCE 3 and UVD6. Before discovering that the XB1 has a VCE that supports low latency encoding for h.264 and HEVC (game streaming) I thought this just meant Xtensa accelerators. VCE 3 is the HEVC capable hardware encoder which Carrizo supports and it is always paired with UVD6 in AMD APUs and dGPUs.
The next Windows 10 update is this August and the XB1 Slim ships this August with UHD BLu-ray support. I suspect this means the next Windows 10 update will support the APIs for the two UHD blu-ray PC applications that have a licence; Sony and Cyberlink.
All shipped XB1 and PS4 game consoles are UHD Capable and I believe will receive firmware updates to support UHD Blu-ray.
The UHD Game Consoles, all of them, have to implement UHD media support in 2016 because it's already part of the agreed upon timetable. In the 2016 report it will likely have UHD tests for up to 6 UHD consoles with the 7th in 2017 (XB1 Scorpio) and next power tier starts 2019 which could be next generation Consoles.
WELCOME TO THE GAME CONSOLE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT where all this can be found
First letter outlining the Voluntary power criteria April 2015
2015 Compliance report May 10, 2016
SECOND STEERING COMMITTEE MEETING June 2016 Reviewing the 2015 Compliance report.
LG - Hitachi and Sony have a licence for a PC UHD drive.
Embedded/Game Console platforms do not need a licence for the Drive
Sony has a BDA UHD BLu-ray licence for Embedded/Game console and PC applications
Cyberlink has a BDA UHD Blu-ray licence for PCs.
Carrizo, Polaris and a number of AMD dGPUs (GCN 1.2) have VCE 3 (AVC and HEVC hardware encoder) and UVD 6 (Trustzone TEE managed) codec decoder Hybrid Software- accelerated Codec using Xtensa accelerators for multiple formats including HEVC. HDCP 2.2 takes place in the TEE so if the motherboard or dGPU has a HDMI port it likely maps HDCP 2.2 to the HDMI port and is firmware update-able to support HDMI 2 and maybe DP 1.4. I.E. They can support UHD Media including UHD BLu-ray with Windows 10. The Trustzone TEE needs to have a trusted boot and all Media decryption (AACS2) and encryption (HDCP 2.2) takes place in the that same TEE.
In AMD APUs the UVD uses Xtensa DSP accelerators which are also used for gesture recognition and in Polaris, the PS4, PS4 Neo, XB1 Slim and XB1 Scorpio as well as Carrizo will also be used for OpenVX/vision processing.
Carrizio has two VCE encoders, one for AVC (h.264) and one for HEVC which confirms they are hardware based. VCE does not use Xtensa DSP processors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Coding_Engine said:
The XB1 uses the same technology that AMD uses in Carrizo which has a VCE 3 and UVD6. Before discovering that the XB1 has a VCE that supports low latency encoding for h.264 and HEVC (game streaming) I thought this just meant Xtensa accelerators. VCE 3 is the HEVC capable hardware encoder which Carrizo supports and it is always paired with UVD6 in AMD APUs and dGPUs.
https://community.amd.com/community/amd-corporate/blog said:
The next Windows 10 update is this August and the XB1 Slim ships this August with UHD BLu-ray support. I suspect this means the next Windows 10 update will support the APIs for the two UHD blu-ray PC applications that have a licence; Sony and Cyberlink.
All shipped XB1 and PS4 game consoles are UHD Capable and I believe will receive firmware updates to support UHD Blu-ray.
http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Independent_Inspector_Games_Console_ACR__Final_v1.0__period_2015_.pdf said:
The UHD Game Consoles, all of them, have to implement UHD media support in 2016 because it's already part of the agreed upon timetable. In the 2016 report it will likely have UHD tests for up to 6 UHD consoles with the 7th in 2017 (XB1 Scorpio) and next power tier starts 2019 which could be next generation Consoles.
WELCOME TO THE GAME CONSOLE VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT where all this can be found
First letter outlining the Voluntary power criteria April 2015
2015 Compliance report May 10, 2016
SECOND STEERING COMMITTEE MEETING June 2016 Reviewing the 2015 Compliance report.
GearDraxon
Member
We are going to discover that Jeff is really Dr. Bronner, and I will not be surprised in the least.
ALL-ONE! ALL-ONE! VIDIPATH!
Monty Mole
Member
Vidipath
SwordStruck
Member
Microsoft listed the Xbox One as 'high definition' in the newest report, not 'ultra high definition' or UHD capable:
http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Microsoft_Xbox_One.pdf
http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Microsoft_Xbox_One.pdf
jeff_rigby
Banned
Here is where you found the compliance reports and the PS4 reports clearly say UHD capable. You didn't look at them? Are you trolling?
Sony compliance letter for the PS4 states the PS4 is UHD Capable Second version of the PS4 same UHD capable http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/SONY__PCR_2016_CUH1216A.pdf
But as you point out, the Compliance test from Microsoft lists the XB1 as High Definition. I can only guess the 2015 Compliance report is testing HD mode and is labeled thus for Microsoft.
There are three other letters stating the XB1 and PS4 are UHD capable. Two state the Launch models by Date and /or Model numbers. One makes no distinction as to date but it's a April 2015 letter. In one of the letters is this chart where UHD console power use for Navigation starts Jan 2014 and is the same as a HD console for Navigation while UHD media playback doesn't start till Jan 2016
In any case thank you for reading and following up.
The power figures confirm they are not using full screen video and turning off the GPU. The GPU and ARM block are on different power islands and it's possible to turn off the GPU when there is full screen video. The Streaming media test was Via Netflix and on the PS4 Netflix is totally self contained not using the PS4 TEE or software stack so it is likely using the GPU for codec and self contained DRM. Same for the XB1? including the DVD and Blu-ray player? Again, waiting for the HTML5 <video> player in the TEE which will implement both HD and UHD at the same time?
Adam Tyner
Member
He explicitly said the Xbox One. You're talking about the PS4. The Xbox One and PS4 are different devices. This is why they have different names to help distinguish them as such.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Ultra High Definition Console
http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/SONY__PCR_2016_CUH1116A.pdf
http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/SONY__PCR_2016_CUH1216A.pdf
= Launch PS4 is UHD Capable.