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[Juice]

Man these crazy buttocks on a train threads aren't as fun as they used to be

 

[yurinka]

To the OP: I think it just mean that PS4 Neo and Xbox One S will support 4K Blu-ray. Maybe in addition to a firmware update the original PS4 and XBO needed a small hardware tweak, like a new HDMI version.

 

[mcrommert]

Here's a wacky idea: why don't you stop pinning all your hopes and dreams on a few words from a marketing slide?

You invented a grand story from those EU documents based on the two words "UHD Capable". You've invented another grand story -- at odds with both common sense and absolutely every other shred of evidence -- based on "Streaming via HEVC" from an AMD marketing slide.

We've already had a very prominent person from Microsoft from the video/graphics team specifically involved in its HEVC implementation -- someone absolutely, undeniably in a position to know -- say that there is no in-hardware HEVC decoding in the launch Xbox One. I do put far more weight on that than an undescriptive AMD marketing slide that certainly doesn't seem to mean what you think it means.

Maybe next time you could hold out for an entire sentence before weaving a convoluted scenario and a sinister conspiracy around it? Y'know, baby steps.

We have numerous sources talking about the UHD capability of the S -- physical media and streaming. UHD BD requires a dedicated HEVC decoder, the S supports UHD BD, so obviously the S supports HEVC. Game streaming is of zero consequence for this conversation.

It's far more likely that the marketing slide is referring to the S than it is the launch console. The fact that we have to wonder what the slide is referring to (similar to your incredibly vague EU documents) proves that it's not a strong foundation for any claim one way or the other. What makes more sense?

(a) This AMD slide references HEVC streaming from the Xbox One to the PC. (b) It doesn't say that it's not the launch Xbox One, so that must be what it's talking about! (c) The visionaries at Microsoft put a dedicated hardware HEVC encoder/decoder in place years before it would be relevant; hell, it's not even being used now, right at three years later! (d) There's no documentation to support this, though: how else can MS maintain such a closely guarded secret?! (e) Not even the HEVC team at Microsoft can know of its existence, so they had to write a CPU-bound software implementation for an HEVC decoder instead. (f) Since the launch Xbox One can(not) provably stream 1080p gameplay via HEVC to a PC, and since encoding requires more resources than decoding, therefore the launch Xbox One can playback Ultra HD video!

- or -

(a) There's no documentation for hardware-based HEVC decoding/encoding in the launch Xbox One because that capability does not exist. (b) Stacey Spears said there's no dedicated HEVC decoder in the launch Xbox One because he knows what he's talking about. (c) The MS team developed a CPU-bound HEVC decoder because there was no dedicated hardware that they could use instead.

I'm going to call bullshit on the hevc stuff. There is definitely a hardware decoder despite what anyone is saying. With a recent update plex app is able to decode x265 no issue. The talk of it being a cpu based decode that uses all cpus and gpus is nonsense. First off there is no change in console Behavior if you are decoding hevc. If all of the cpu and gpus are in use games would sure as hell not still be running in the background. Also if I'm not mistaken yep apps documentation say there is a hevc decided they can make use of. Those apps can use a tiny percentage of the power of the system...which is less than a cpu bound decoder would need.



Edit: Jeff Rigby is still a crazy person

 

[Adam Tyner]

I'm going to call bullshit on the hevc stuff. There is definitely a hardware decoder despite what anyone is saying.

If you can track down that documentation again, could you post a link? I can't find anything about it being done in hardware.

The question for me really isn't about HEVC in and of itself but with UHD BD-level videos encoded with HEVC, which are a different beast. Microsoft's update notes make it a point to say "HD", for instance:

10-bit HD High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) platform support added

10-bit HD HEVC enables video-streaming apps, like Netflix, to use lower bandwidth to deliver HD-quality video streams. 10-bit Ultra color increases the video color precision from 8-bits to 10-bits—with 8-bits you only get 16 million colors, but with 10-bit Ultra color precision you get 1 billion lifelike colors that make your video more vibrant.

 

[jett]

what about my ps3 tho

 

[SwordStruck]

It makes a lot more sense to me that the Xbox only supported h.264 in hardware, since you know, h.265 wasn't even finalized as a standard by the time the Xbox One released. That also explains why they would spend the time and money to create a software decoder for a June 2015 update (Which would have been pointless if the Xbox One could do it in hardware).

 

[jeff_rigby]

If you can track down that documentation again, could you post a link? I can't find anything about it being done in hardware.

The question for me really isn't about HEVC in and of itself but with UHD BD-level videos encoded with HEVC, which are a different beast. Microsoft's update notes make it a point to say "HD", for instance:

If it's going to be used for Netfix it has to be Trustzone managed and can not use the X-86 CPU or GCN GPU. That means it's either running on several considerably powerful ARM CPUs or Trustzone managed Xtensa accelerators. It's real time decoding a stream 1/4 of what is needed for UHD and we do not know what the duty cycle is for the Xtensa DSP block in doing this.

Netflix will use the same HEVC encryption for HD and UHD as HEVC profile 10 will be the standard regardless of HD 8 bit media. ALL the media is pre encrypted at three different bandwidths and streamed depending on connection speed. This is why it's HD 10 bit HEVC support for 8 bit media.

We have to assume Microsoft did not know and test what a HEVC profile 10 software accelerated codec would need by way of a Xtensa DSP block or they didn't want to support HEVC in the Launch consoles. A software accelerated HEVC codec makes room for HEVC changes and could be used for VP9 if need be.

 

[5taquitos]

what about my ps3 tho

You'll see major updates to the web browser any day now.

 

[Adam Tyner]

It's real time decoding a stream 1/4 of what is needed for UHD and we do not know what the duty cycle is for the Xtensa DSP block in doing this.

...so many questions, but you're still somehow treating this as evidence of Ultra HD Blu-ray support for the launch Xbox One?

 

[Adam Tyner]

Netflix will use the same HEVC encryption for HD and UHD as HEVC profile 10 will be the standard regardless of HD 8 bit media. ALL the media is pre encrypted at three different bandwidths and streamed depending on connection speed.

Encoded, not "encrypted".

Bitrates and resolutions, not "bandwidths".

They used to use ten (not "three"!) sets of fixed bitrates/resolutions, but that hasn't been the case in a while. They use three resolutions in an example on their blog, so maybe that's why you're confused.

 

[Syriel]

ALL the media is pre encrypted at three different bandwidths and streamed depending on connection speed.

This is incorrect.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Encoded, not "encrypted".

Bitrates and resolutions, not "bandwidths".

They used to use ten (not "three"!) sets of fixed bitrates/resolutions, but that hasn't been the case in a while. They use three resolutions but an expansive variety of bitrates, so maybe that's why you're confused.

Thanks for the correction. What I was describing is how ATSC 3 handles streaming with no feedback. This may not be how Netflix will stream UHD over the internet. I probably carried UHD standards too far. The Three bandwidth steams are to accommodate Mobile TV and UHD fixed living room TV.

 

[Adam Tyner]

What I was describing is how ATSC 3 handles streaming with no feedback.

I'd love to see a link to that effect. What you said earlier strikes me as a misquoting of this Netflix tech blog post, with notes like "We pre-encode streams at various bitrates applying optimized encoding recipes".

So if I'm watching a football game live, how can it be "pre-encrypted"? It's live, so there's no way to pre-anything to it. Why would content ever be "encrypted" based on resolution? I cannot find references to any variation of "pre-encrypt" in reference to ATSC 3.0.

Reading up a bit on ATSC 3.0, I see quotes like:

The station can broadcast in multiple modes—over the air, mobile, and medium rate for HD tablets—all at the same time. The broadcaster is in control and can choose what they want to target.

That sounds like broadcasters have the flexibility to do what they want rather than:

ALL the media is pre encrypted at three different bandwidths and streamed depending on connection speed.

Sounds like it's more dependent on device type rather than connection speed.

 

[Gamezone]

I want to believe, Jeff, but the PS4 Neo, Scorpio and Xbox Slim announcements kinda ruined any hope that was left. These will be their UHD systems, not the launch units. Even Mike Ybarra from the Xbox team posted on Twitter that he was finally able to watch a UHD movie thanks to the Xbox Slim.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I want to believe, Jeff, but the PS4 Neo, Scorpio and Xbox Slim announcements kinda ruined any hope that was left. These will be their UHD systems, not the launch units. Even Mike Ybarra from the Xbox team posted on Twitter that he was finally able to watch a UHD movie thanks to the Xbox Slim.

Can we agree that the Launch Consoles could have had the hardware to support UHD Blu-ray if either Sony or Microsoft wanted to support it?

For the Drive, the version 2 disk was envisioned before 2010 and it requires either a firmware update and/or a slightly more powerfull DSP than shipping in 2010, probably a 2012 or later drive with 8X speed (UHD blu-ray requires 4X with 3D 6X). 8X is the maximum speed a USB 2 can support. A UHD drive licence is not required for embedded and game consoles, it's part of the Player licence. Only a PC needs a separate licence for the Player and Drive.

For the HDMI 2 and HDCP 2.2, HDCP 2.2 was developed and used for Miracast in ARM phones in 2012 and a paper published to map it to a HDMI port published Feb 2013. Since the movie industry wants HDCP 2.2 to take place in the TEE, a HDMI chip just needs to support the timing of HDMI 2 and pass negotiation to the TEE. Same is true for computers which allows DP to HDMI 2.2 even off board without violating DRM rules.

For HEVC, Microsoft and Sony, as seen in Linkedin, hired software engineers for HEVC as early as 2010 and the engineer moved on to other jobs in 2013. WiKI for HEVC history has multiple software HEVC codecs available 2012 and dedicated hardware codecs 2013. The XB1 has a HEVC profile 10 decoder and encoder used for HD media. This is the same codec and the only thing in question; is the hardware powerful enough to handle 4K media.

HEVC profile 10 for UHD blu-ray is also used for UHD streaming, The industry considers it imperative that a move to HEVC be made for internet streaming. Microsoft considers it necessary for Game, Skype and Netflix 1080P streaming, Sony will need it for Playstation Vue.

What will it cost to implement UHD Blu-ray assuming you are going to support UHD Streaming and ATSC 3.0 (4K Antenna TV) Pennies. It makes the Game Console more attractive for Microsoft and Microsoft want's to support UHD Blu-ray with digital bridge and Vidipath because those features use Playready and make PCs and Game Consoles more valuable as media hubs for other platforms. Sony the same to the point that Sony has a licence for every UHD blu-ray platform including PCs as well as a PC drive.

On your point; it works for Microsoft if the XB1 Slim replaces the XB1 launch. It does not work for Sony who has said the current PS4 will be sold along side the PS4 NEO going forward. With 40 million PS4s sold and millions of the cheaper PS4s continuing to be sold and more popular for the casual gamer because it's about $100 cheaper, NO UHD media support including blu-ray does not make sense.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Can we agree that the Launch Consoles could have had the hardware to support UHD Blu-ray if either Sony or Microsoft wanted to support it?

It doesn't sound like that would've been possible, no.

The consensus from the folks at Microsoft and Sony that've spoken up about this is that an Ultra HD Blu-ray-capable drive is required. Was one available in 2012/very early 2013 for them to include? If a simple firmware update is all that would've been needed, I can't imagine that so many people at both companies would say that a new drive is necessary. Why you're bringing up USB 2 is beyond me.

As for HEVC, that question you pose has already been answered. We've had at least two people from Sony/Microsoft say that a dedicated HEVC decoder is needed for Ultra HD Blu-ray and that neither console has one right now. Stacey Spears' specifically said that the Xbox One could barely handle 15 MB/s Netflix UHD; 100 MB/s UHD BD is obviously way out of the question.

Considering how many years away Ultra HD Blu-ray was from these consoles' launches, there's also the danger of aiming for a moving target. If they went to the time and expense to target what they thought UHD BD was going to be, and the end result years later didn't quite match what they built for, then they'd be S.O.L.

With 40 million PS4s sold and millions of the cheaper PS4s continuing to be sold and more popular for the casual gamer because it's about $100 cheaper, NO UHD media support including blu-ray does not make sense.

With as well as the UHD-less PS4 is selling right now, it demonstrably doesn't matter. Physical media like Ultra HD Blu-ray discs are in significant decline. Despite being a part of several game consoles for years, Blu-ray is still hovering around a 33% market share. I'm sure being a part of these consoles has helped stave off more of the bloodletting, but they certainly haven't propelled BD through the stratosphere or anything. It's even less likely that they'd make UHD BD a dominant format, although every little bit helps. (I'm basically disc-or-die, so it'd be a great selling point for me.)

Essentially everyone who has a UHD TV can already stream services like Netflix in UHD directly through their smart TVs. It'd be more convenient and a cool thing to have on game consoles too, but the impact isn't nearly as seismic as you make it out to be.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It doesn't sound like that would've been possible, no.

The consensus from the folks at Microsoft and Sony that've spoken up about this is that an Ultra HD Blu-ray-capable drive is required. Was one available in 2012/very early 2013 for them to include? If a simple firmware update is all that would've been needed, I can't imagine that so many people at both companies would say that a new drive is necessary. Why you're bringing up USB 2 is beyond me.

The UHD version 2 disk was envisioned before 2010 and the 2010 CD-R specs for XL drives shipping in 2011 allowed them to read a version 2 disk. The purpose of the 2010 Sony patent was to keep a 2010 drive from reading the 3 or 4 layer mark length reduced disk because it may not be able to do that reliably. A Version 2 disk is a UHD disk. A version 2 disk was never used for Commercial BD-ROM so they never updated the BDROM3 specs till UHD disks. The patent was not needed till recently and 25GB and 50GB disks will be used for UHD so something else was used to keep a HD player from reading a UHD disk.

There are firmware changes from the ROM3 drive to the ROM4 spec drive that keep a HD player from being able to read any UHD media format disk including version 2. The ROM4 drive and Player follow slightly different commands to read a UHD media format disk that keep the HD player from reading it. When the ROM4 drive is in HD mode the drive firmware followed is slightly different than when in UHD mode. The BDXL drive can read the tracks and file structure on the UHD disk but can not play the disk without firmware update because the UHD Player and drive must "talk" the same language and use the same register addresses. If they don't you can't play the disk. These are the changes you think make the UHD drive so unique.

I mention 8X on USB2 as the limiting factor in read speed with the technology possibly able to read faster on a faster bus like eSATA or USB3. .

As for HEVC, that question you pose has already been answered. We've had at least two people from Sony/Microsoft say that a dedicated HEVC decoder is needed for Ultra HD Blu-ray and that neither console has one right now. Stacey Spears' specifically said that the Xbox One could barely handle 15 MB/s Netflix UHD; 100 MB/s UHD BD is obviously way out of the question.

HEVC hardware decode @ UHD blu-ray speeds were in production early 2013. There is also DSP accelerated Xtensa DPU. A CPU HEVC codec would use about 15 watts, a HEVC codec on a GPU has the GPU on and would use about 60 watts when it only needs to use a small part of the GPU cycles. Kaveri uses a UVD (Xtensa accelerated) and the GPU in Kaveri for HEVC total power 15 watts (Duty cycle not known). Kaveri has a 4 CU GPU compared to the PS4 18 CUs and it's not clear how much of the Kaveri GPU is needed. HEVC codec on a DSP accelerated HEVC codec uses about 4 watts and a HEVC Hardware codec about 2 watts (Carrizo @ 40% duty cycle). [Bold Power used for HEVC is confirmed] a Xtensa accelerated AVC codec runs at 350 Mhz and draws 2/10 watt. HEVC is supposed to require 10X what AVC requires but power use does not scale linearly so figure 20X or 4 watts.

Maybe this helps http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~kinanea/thesis/kinane_final.pdf

General purpose processors (GPPs), whether they be RISC or CISC based, generally do not have the right
mix of processing performance, power consumption and silicon area to be viable for efficient mobile
multimedia processing [75, 73]. This is despite extensions to the instruction set that exploit data level
parallelism (e.g. Intel MMX) since such extensions must be backward compatible with the existing
instruction set [73, 78]. This deficiency has spawned the emergence of special purpose processors (i.e.
35
DSPs, and media processors) to fill the void. DSPs differ from GPPs in the sense that their architectures
are more efficient for mathematical computations (multiplications, additions) whereas GPPs are more
suited to data movement and conditional testing. Media processors may be thought of as niche DSPs that
are specifically tailored for media processing,

They are generally a group of heterogeneous processors with highly integrated
fixed-function accelerators for multimedia processing (essentially the hybrid system outlined earlier).
The dedicated accelerators tend to be more integrated with the central processing core as opposed to
residing as external peripherals addressable by a GPP. An example of a commercial media processor
is the Philips PNX1500 [80]. Another variation in the processor domain is that of configurable and
reconfigurable processors. A configurable processor allows the designer to tailor the architecture and
instruction set to the desired application prior to manufacture of the processor, as opposed to tweaking
the application to suit the processor (e.g. Tensilica Xtensa [81]).

The Xtensa processor costs in the XB1 and PS4 are shared with OpenVX for VR, (Gesture recognition, head tracking, hand tracking , voice recognition), Codecs and digital bridge/PlayreadyND requirements to transcode from Mpeg and HEVC to AVC which is the Vidipath standard.



TVs have mandated power requirements and they have to use a hardware codec, Laptops and Phones have battery life considerations and have to use a hardware codec. Game consoles have voluntary power requirements and are supposed to follow state of the art. So in 2013 they could use Xtensa accelerated software codecs but in 2016 a new design should use a hardware codec.

Considering how many years away Ultra HD Blu-ray was from these consoles' launches, there's also the danger of aiming for a moving target. If they went to the time and expense to target what they thought UHD BD was going to be, and the end result years later didn't quite match that they built for, then they'd be S.O.L.

Adam, Sony is part of the BDA and set the standards.

1) The UHD disk was envisioned before 2010,
2) HEVC Sofware engineers were hired in 2010 by Sony, finished HEVC and moved on by 2013,
3) the UHD player is using Open Source standards also envisioned in 2010 like HTML5 for the UI and C-ENC which Playready follows and can be played in a HTML5 <video> player in a TEE because it follows the same standard proposed by Netflix, Google Microsoft.

With as well as the UHD-less PS4 is selling right now, it demonstrably doesn't matter. Physical media like Ultra HD Blu-ray discs are in significant decline, and essentially everyone who has a UHD TV can already stream services like Netflix in UHD directly through their smart TVs. It'd be more convenient and nice to have, but the impact isn't nearly as seismic as you make it out to be.

Most of the 4K TVs already sold do not have a HEVC decoder and need a player. TVs have serious power regulations and cost considerations.

 

[MaLDo]

Can we agree that the Launch Consoles could have had the hardware to support UHD Blu-ray if either Sony or Microsoft wanted to support it?

No. But you can stretch this thread to infinity. I think you're unfit for it.


And on topic, xtensa, "blu-tooth", HEVC and BINK.

 

[Adam Tyner]

The UHD version 2 disk was envisioned before 2010 and the 2010 CD-R specs for XL drives shipping in 2011 allowed them to read a version 2 disk. {snip}

So why are so many people from Microsoft and Sony saying that a new drive is needed? Are they lying, incompetent, misinformed, etc.?

HEVC hardware decode @ UHD blu-ray speeds were in production early 2013.

Not from AMD. With as far in advance as things need to be locked down for a console, that'd be coming in awfully hot.

Adam, Sony is part of the BDA and set the standards

The standards were far from complete by 2013.

Most of the 4K TVs already sold do not have a HEVC decoder and need a player.

Give me a list of UHD TVs from the past couple of years without a UHD-capable Netflix app, UHD-capable Amazon Video app, etc. There are undeniably some. "Most", though? Hardly.

 

[rahulkadukar]

Can we agree that the Launch Consoles could have had the hardware to support UHD Blu-ray if either Sony or Microsoft wanted to support it?

I agree with you completely, the PS1 and the OB Xbox had a place where you could put a disc so theoretically even they can play a UHD Bluray, why stop there they can also play the 8K Ultraviolet Discs coming out in 2025.

Your claims are ridiculous they never supported it and they never will. Accept it and move on.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Not from AMD. With as far in advance as things need to be locked down for a console, that'd be coming in awfully hot.

AMD uses Xtensa DSPs for their UVD, they have a UVD in 2014 Kaveri that just needs additional GPGPU from 4 CUs or less for HEVC and 2015 Carrizo does it all in the UVD with dedicated hardware blocks. Typical lead time for a design is 2 years to tapeout so AMD knew what was required for hardware HEVC in 2013 and this could have been supported by a Software accelerated Xtensa processor.

Maybe this helps http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~kinanea/thesis/kinane_final.pdf

General purpose processors (GPPs), whether they be RISC or CISC based, generally do not have the right
mix of processing performance, power consumption and silicon area to be viable for efficient mobile
multimedia processing [75, 73]. This is despite extensions to the instruction set that exploit data level
parallelism (e.g. Intel MMX) since such extensions must be backward compatible with the existing
instruction set [73, 78]. This deficiency has spawned the emergence of special purpose processors (i.e.
35
DSPs, and media processors) to fill the void. DSPs differ from GPPs in the sense that their architectures
are more efficient for mathematical computations (multiplications, additions) whereas GPPs are more
suited to data movement and conditional testing. Media processors may be thought of as niche DSPs that
are specifically tailored for media processing,

They are generally a group of heterogeneous processors with highly integrated
fixed-function accelerators for multimedia processing (essentially the hybrid system outlined earlier).
The dedicated accelerators tend to be more integrated with the central processing core as opposed to
residing as external peripherals addressable by a GPP. An example of a commercial media processor
is the Philips PNX1500 [80]. Another variation in the processor domain is that of configurable and
reconfigurable processors. A configurable processor allows the designer to tailor the architecture and
instruction set to the desired application prior to manufacture of the processor, as opposed to tweaking
the application to suit the processor (e.g. Tensilica Xtensa [81]).

The Xtensa processor costs in the XB1 and PS4 are shared with OpenVX for VR, (Gesture recognition, head tracking, hand tracking , voice recognition), Codecs and digital bridge/PlayreadyND requirements to transcode from Mpeg and HEVC to AVC which is the Vidipath standard.

Remember the Sony CTO talking about the PS4 needing configurable logic and Semiaccurate initially assuming he meant FPGA.

FPGAs. Yeah, there is a lot of weird talk coming out of Sony engineers, and programmable logic, aka an FPGA, is just one of the things. Additional media processing blocks, DSPs, and similar blocks are all part of the concept.

You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."

The standards were far from complete by 2013

an understanding of what was needed was in papers from 2006 (My cite above for Xtensa configurable DSP which is in all AMD APUs and is why they have a ARM Trustzone processor). .

 

[Adam Tyner]

AMD uses Xtensa DSPs for their UVD, they have a UVD in 2014 Kaveri that just needs additional GPGPU from 4 CUs or less for HEVC and 2015 Carrizo does it all in the UVD with dedicated hardware blocks. Typical lead time for a design is 2 years to tapeout so AMD knew what was required for hardware HEVC in 2013 and this could have been supported by a Software accelerated Xtensa processor.

Why do Microsoft and Sony both say that a dedicated HEVC decoder is needed for Ultra HD Blu-ray playback if they already have what they need? Why did Microsoft write a CPU-intensive, software-based HEVC decoder if they've had the hardware to do it all along? Do you think it's more likely that Microsoft is ignorant, lying, misinformed, incompetent, etc., or that things just don't work the way you think they do? Both companies have people in a position to know saying the same thing. I think it's very unlikely that both Sony and Microsoft are that unaware of the capabilities of their hardware.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Why do Microsoft and Sony both say that a dedicated HEVC decoder is needed for Ultra HD Blu-ray playback if they already have what they need?

A HEVC hardware codec is needed for Latency, Power and Price. Trick playback modes that won't be used for UHD Blu-ray (scene select used instead) might be needed for HEVC streaming from a DVR. That might need the speed of a hardware decoder.

At the present time H.264/AVC media can be fast forwarded or rewound at 130X speed on the PS4 while the less intensive compressed Mpeg2 can't. The Vidipath standard is AVC/h.264 and a media hub is supposed to convert media to that format to stream over the home network. It's obvious that special attention has been paid to AVC/h.264. HEVC is supposed to require 10X worst case the processing AVC needs so 130 X AVC playback speeds should mean the PS4 can support 3 4K HEVC streams at the same time. Edit, it's possible that 130X only decodes every 10th or 20th frame etc.

Why did Microsoft write a CPU-intensive, software-based HEVC decoder if they've had the hardware to do it all along? Are they ignorant, lying, misinformed, etc.?

Can I give the same weight to Spears that you give to the two official letters to the EU stating the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable.

1) A X-86 CPU or GCN GPU based HEVC codec can not be used for DRM media. as they are not on the ARM Trustzone bus and controlled by the ARM CPU.
2) The XB1 has 15 special blocks of Xtensa configurable DSP logic which are designed to support Media and Vision processing so why would they use a CPU or GPU that are much less efficient.
3) Kaveri for instance can support a SOFTWARE HEVC with the Xtensa processors in a UVD and 4 or fewer CUs in the GPU (less than 15 watts). Spears said it takes all the CPUs and/or all the GPU and it is still not fast enough. That makes the tiny DSP block 3X faster than the entire HUGE XB1 GPU. A GPU of XB1 power should be easily able to do HEVC or that tiny DSP is HUGELY more efficient than a GPU

Together with Telestream, AMD has developed HEVC codec that uses HSA that's able to play 4K HEVC content on Kaveri with a very low load on the CPU. It's unclear how and when that codec will become available to consumers, but the fact that the chip is specifically suitable for 4K HEVC is great news if you want to build an HTPC. AMD also wants HSA to be used for Open Source projects, so it wouldn't surprise us if they release an HSA-compatible OpenCL open source H.265 codec

They can't use this HEVC codec for DRM media as it also uses the GPU.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Can I give the same weight to Spears that you give to the two official letters to the EU stating the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable.

The two are hardly the same.

Stacey Spears worked directly on this project, he's a very well-known and deeply respected figure in home theater/media authoring circles, he has a list of relevant credentials a mile long, and he speaks in detail about these issues.

Your documents just say "UHD Capable", and that's it.

Of course I give far, far greater weight to Spears' comments and essentially none to the EU documents. I don't understand why anyone would feel otherwise. Spears' comments are substantial and clear, and the EU documents are devoid of that, at least as far as the subject at hand goes. Spears is also talking about UHD capability in particular, and your documents are about power consumption where "UHD Capable" is an incidental heading. Your vaunted EU letters never once make any mention of Ultra HD Blu-ray, while Spears speaks about that specifically. UHD BD is primarily what we're talking about here, yes?

Spears' comments also explain why we don't have UHD streaming on either console (specifically the Xbox One, but it's not unreasonable to think that the same would hold true for the PS4). Remember, Sony worked directly with Netflix to make sure that their smart TVs would be able to stream UHD content the instant Netflix flipped the switch. Netflix has been streaming in UHD for more than two years now. Amount of UHD content from Netflix or any other content provider on the Xbox One and PS4 after all that time: zero. If the XB1 and PS4 had the capability to very easily do this all along, why has there been no UHD content for so long?

If you take issue with what Spears said, contact him and get clarification. You're both members of blu-ray.com and likely share a number of other message boards in common as well.

If it helps, I'll agree with the EU documents that the launch PS4 and Xbox One should be capable of pushing out 3840x2160 content. There are no indications that they'll be able to push out 2160p content via Netflix, Amazon Video, Ultra HD Blu-ray, etc., and that's what really matters. (Technical capability in lieu of content makes it a pointless academic argument.) Particularly in the case of the latter -- and remember, this is a thread about Ultra HD Blu-ray -- all indications are that there will never and could never be support in the launch consoles.

Even if you discount what Spears said, Ito said the same thing about the PS4, at least about Ultra HD Blu-ray requiring a dedicated HEVC decoder. Two people in a position to know at two different companies agreeing on this point makes it a very compelling argument. Do you disagree?

It's obvious that special attention has been paid to AVC/h.264.

The PS4 has a dedicated H.264 decoder. Of course it's efficient! You can't reasonably make assumptions on the consoles' HEVC capability based on that.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The two are hardly the same.

Stacey Spears worked directly on this project, he's a very well-known and deeply respected figure in home theater/media authoring circles, he has a list of relevant credentials a mile long, and he speaks in detail about these issues.

Your documents just say "UHD Capable", and that's it.

Of course I give far, far greater weight to Spears' comments and essentially none to the EU documents. I don't understand why anyone would feel otherwise. Spears' comments are substantial and clear, and the EU documents are devoid of that, at least as far as the subject at hand goes. Spears is also talking about UHD capability in particular, and your documents are about power consumption where "UHD Capable" is an incidental heading. Your vaunted EU letters never once make any mention of Ultra HD Blu-ray, while Spears speaks about that specifically. UHD BD is primarily what we're talking about here, yes?

Spears' comments also explain why we don't have UHD streaming on either console (specifically the Xbox One, but it's not unreasonable to think that the same would hold true for the PS4). Remember, Sony worked directly with Netflix to make sure that their smart TVs would be able to stream UHD content the instant Netflix flipped the switch. Netflix has been streaming in UHD for more than two years now. Amount of UHD content from Netflix or any other content provider on the Xbox One and PS4 after all that time: zero. If the XB1 and PS4 had the capability to very easily do this all along, why has there been no UHD content for so long?

If you take issue with what Spears said, contact him and get clarification. You're both members of blu-ray.com and likely share a number of other message boards in common as well.

If it helps, I'll agree with the EU documents that the launch PS4 and Xbox One should be capable of pushing out 3840x2160 content. There are no indications that they'll be able to push out 2160p content via Netflix, Amazon Video, Ultra HD Blu-ray, etc., and that's what really matters. (Technical capability in lieu of content makes it a pointless academic argument.) Particularly in the case of the latter -- and remember, this is a thread about Ultra HD Blu-ray -- all indications are that there will never and could never be support in the launch consoles.

Even if you discount what Spears said, Ito said the same thing about the PS4, at least about Ultra HD Blu-ray requiring a dedicated HEVC decoder. Two people in a position to know at two different companies agreeing on this point makes it a very compelling argument. Do you disagree?

The PS4 has a dedicated H.264 decoder. Of course it's efficient! You can't reasonably make assumptions on the consoles' HEVC capability based on that.

Letter sent to Stacey Spears who was a video tester for Microsoft till Sept 2014. He was not involved with programming a Codec but he is knowledgeable enough to point programmers to where there are problems.

Microsoft
March 2014 &#8211; September 2014 (7 months)Redmond, WA
I was the video guy on the media consumption team, which was part of the new Operating Systems Group at Microsoft.

My focus was on spatial video quality for Windows Phone, Tablets, Desktop, and Xbox. I looked at everything from Image capture through video playback. If there was an image involved, I was looking at.

You have been suggested as a expert on the XB1 to answer some questions.

I found several letters to the EU power boards stating the PS4 and XB1 Launch consoles are UHD Capable.

page 1 http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf

Page 10 and near the end in charts, UHD Media support is in the 2014 XB1 and PS4 and it starts 2016 (will be firmware updated in 2016?). https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/e...les Self-Regulatory Initiative V1 - Final.pdf

What does UHD Capable mean when the PS3 is listed as HD capable? I believe it means:

1) HDCP 2.2 in the TEE and a HDMI chip that passes negotiation to the TEE and supports HDMI timing.
2) HEVC profile 10 support for 4K media
3) HTML5 full browser with HTML5 <video> EME MSE
4) Will support ATSC 3.0
5) Will support Vidipath
6) Firmware upgradeable blu-ray drive to support UHD blu-ray

What we know so far:

XB1 supports HEVC profile 10 decode for HD media in the Trustzone TEE with Xtensa DSP accelerators
XB1 supports HEVC encode for game streaming (1080P or less) likely a hardware encoder provided by AMD in the APU

PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip and the PS4 Southbridge has a Trustzone processor
Sony moved the ARM IP out of the APU to southbridge so they could use GDDR5 with the APU
Both consoles are using Xtensa DSP configurable processors for multiple features
Both consoles plan on being media hubs
The PS4 has both Playready and WMDRM in the intellectual notice
Sony wants to support UHD Bu-ray digital bridge using Playready ND
Sony has a BDA licence for all UHD players including Game Consoles and PC. They have a Licence for a PC drive but it appears the Embedded/Game console licence includes the drive
Microsoft in Playready ND papers has "Game Consoles" supporting DVR and Live streaming

The BDA has several paragraphs mentioning UHD disks being used for Game media and the rules governing this.
The BDA game console licence could be for 2016 and later game Consoles. UHD capable too except the letters have UHD Console power savings from 2013 and UHD console Navigation power starting Jan 2014 with UHD Media starting 2016.


Thanks in advance

Jeff Rigby

 

[jeff_rigby]

The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0. ANY UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge will support DLNA4 and Playready

Consumers have long complained that there are files on their servers that they cannot play with their mobile devices, PCs, TVs, set top boxes or other devices. DLNA 4.0 solves this problem by mandating transcoding on the media server.

Power efficiency is improved through low power modes that enable connected devices to work together to cut overall energy consumption in the home. Consumers also can now enjoy Ultra HD content streamed throughout the home via a media gateway or set top box because DLNA 4.0 supports the High Efficiency Video Codec (HEVC) video compression standard. The Guidelines also support IPv6 to ensure DLNA 4.0 Certified devices will continue to function as more networks transition to this protocol.

DLNA 4.0 Certified devices will support the broadest possible set of media formats and advanced features for optimum performance across the most extensive range of use cases. The DLNA 4.0 Certification Program will join existing DLNA 2.0 and 3.0 Certification Programs that, together, help maximize product development options for manufacturers as they differentiate their offerings in the market. Over 4 billion devices have been certified to DLNA&#8217;s 2.0 and 3.0 Certification Programs. Introduced in August 2015, DLNA&#8217;s 3.0 Certification Program added advanced features and capabilities for playback and response time. DLNA 4.0 further extends available features and DLNA 4.0 Certification will provide unprecedented interoperability assurance through increased mandatory requirements and more extensive conformance testing.

DLNA 4.0 Guidelines have been submitted for adoption as an international standard by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), which has published all previous sets of DLNA Guidelines for content sharing applications and protected streaming across home networks. The IEC is the world&#8217;s leading organization that prepares and publishes International Standards for electrical, electronic and related technologies.

Consumers can share and enjoy personal content on DLNA Certified devices and subscription TV content on VidiPath Certified devices, including mobile devices, PCs, set top boxes, AV receivers, game consoles, TVs and more, regardless of manufacturer.

DLNA + Playready DRM = Vidipath

 

[Ombala]

Sorry but where did it say PS4 will get that in the link?

 

[Gamezone]

The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0. ANY UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge will support DLNA4 and Playready

DLNA + Playready DRM = Vidipath

The PS4 must be the last tiny hope. The Xbox One launch systems are definitely not seeing any firmware updates.

 

[8bit]

The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0.

That link has no mention of the PS4. Where do you get that information from?

 

[Adam Tyner]

That link has no mention of the PS4. Where do you get that information from?

None of Jeff's stated-as-cold-hard-fact conclusions are substantiated.

 

[Chû Totoro]

The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0. ANY UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge will support DLNA4 and Playready

DLNA + Playready DRM = Vidipath

syllogism fallacy

- PS4 has "whatever tech jeff's want to throw in to sound smart".
- UHD Blu-Ray players have "the said tech"
> PS4 is an UHD Blu-Ray player.

Now stop. You may know a lot about tech but when you can't explain things in a simple way then it's a bad sign. If you're a scientist or and engineer you should know this already. And you should know that changing the hypothesis you want to work on is not permitted. A lot of us know the original thread title... so yeah -_-

Now I'll come back with update 4.0 to eat crow or to keep thinking that you're a lost man who enjoys to think he's smarter than others and then tries to prove this on Internet forums...

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sorry but where did it say PS4 will get that in the link?

The first line is fact, Adam's interpretation is based on not knowing what the categories mean.Sony is a founding member of the DLNA.org now follow the logic.

DLNA guideline versions
1.0: released June 2004; 2 volumes: Architecture & Protocols, Media Formats; 2 Device Classes: DMP, DMS; About 50 media format profiles [12]
1.5: released March 2006; 3 volumes: Architecture & Protocols, Media Formats, and Link Protection; 12 Devices Classes and 5 Device Capabilities; About 250 media format profiles [12]
2.0: released August 2015; Includes topics like EPG, Content Sync, RUI, WPS, Media Formats, Scheduled recording, DRM [12][13]
3.0: released August 2015; enhanced response time, improved power efficiency, HEVC support [14]
4.0: planned release 2016 [15]

Some of the below from memory as DLNA 2 and 3 are no longer listed.
DLNA2 is 1080P or less media streaming in the home with 1080i or less DRM media using Playready 2.5 (includes WMDRM for in home streaming DRM) and Playready 2.5 for 1080P or less OTT
DLNA3 is 1080P or less media streaming in the home with 1080i or less DRM media using WMDRM and Playready 3 DRM for 1080P & 4K or less OTT
DLNA4 is 4K or less media streaming in the home and 1080i or less with DRM media using WMDRM, and 4K or less with Playready ND. 4K or less OTT with Playready 3.

The XB1 has a AVC encoder for 1080P and the PS4 should be the same. This makes both the XB1 and PS4 Launch DLNA4 if only for 1080P streaming in the home which requires Playready ND. Playready ND is required for UHD Blur-ray digital bridge so every UHD BLu-ray with digital bridge is DLNA4.
THE PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable which means at the minimum they stream 4K which is DLNA 3 and since they support 1080P in home streaming that again makes them DLNA 4.

The logic of the DLNA categories appears to be chosen to make the PS3 and PS4 DLNA 4 STBs. It does not follow what I consider a logical progression as there should be a STB that supports 1080P across the board between DLNA 2 and DLNA 3. You also have DLNA client and server and at a minimum the PS3 and PS4 will be DLNA 4 clients with the PS4 I think also a DLNA4 server, for sure the XB1 launch is a DLNA 4 server.

There is a hole in the logic in that the Launch PS4 and XB1 can support DLNA 3 and DLNA 4 without being a UHD BLu-ray player which also goes along with just being UHD Capable unless I am correct about the Launch consoles only needing a firmware update for the blu-ray drives.

To not confuse the consumer a UHD blu-ray player as a digital bridge DLNA 4 server will stream 1080P to a DLNA4 client not DLNA 3 or lower. The PS3 as DLNA 4 can be streamed 4K media and Playready ND will insure it's down converted to 1080P before it will play it out the HDMI port. Playready 2 will no longer be allowed, Playready 2 is self contained in the APP rather than partially embedded in the platform which starts with porting kit 2.5.

 

[SwordStruck]

The Toyota Prius has an engine.
All race cars have an engine.
Every Toyota Prius is a race car.

 

[Adam Tyner]

The first line is fact, Adam's interpretation

There's nothing to interpret! Literally nowhere does it say "The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0." There isn't a single mention of the PS4, let alone a specific firmware version!

 

[mitchman]

The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0. ANY UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge will support DLNA4 and Playready

This is pure speculation based on the speculation that PS4 can support UHD Blu-Ray with a firmware upgrade, which already has been refuted by considerable more reliable sources than yourself. Stop this FUD.

 

[jeff_rigby]

There's nothing to interpret! Literally nowhere does it say "The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0." There isn't a single mention of the PS4, let alone a specific firmware version!

Gesh read it again. The PS3 will also be a DLNA 4 client @ 1080P for DRM media. Do you doubt that? Why do you think the PS4 can't be a 1080P client? A 1080P server like the XB1?

This is pure speculation based on the speculation that PS4 can support UHD Blu-Ray with a firmware upgrade, which already has been refuted by considerable more reliable sources than yourself. Stop this FUD.

Read the post again especially the bold parts outside the quote.

The logic of the DLNA categories appears to be chosen to make the PS3 and PS4 DLNA 4 STBs. It does not follow what I consider a logical progression as there should be a STB that supports 1080P across the board between DLNA 2 and DLNA 3. You also have DLNA client and server and at a minimum the PS3 and PS4 will be DLNA 4 clients with the PS4 I think also a DLNA4 server, for sure the XB1 launch is a DLNA 4 server.

I believe to not confuse the customer; a UHD blu-ray player as a digital bridge DLNA 4 server will stream 1080P or 4K to a DLNA4 client not DLNA 3 or lower. The PS3 as DLNA 4 can be streamed 4K media and Playready ND will insure it's down converted to 1080P before it will play it out the HDMI port. DLNA 4 DRM media requires Playready ND which is needed for 1080P and higher resolution in home streaming.

Playready 2 will no longer be allowed, Playready 2 is self contained in the APP rather than partially embedded in the platform which starts with porting kit 2.5. This and the above is why the PS3 is getting an embedded playready port.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Gesh read it again.

Sure thing!

[clicks over to http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...DLNA-4.0-Transforms-Connected-Home-Experience ]

CTRL+F for "PS3". Nope! Nothing.
CTRL+F for "PS4". Nope! Nothing.
CTRL+F for "PlayStation". Nope! Nothing.
CTRL+F for "firmware". Nope! Nothing.

Gesh, maybe you should read it again, chief. Did you post the wrong link? Where's the one that says that the PS4 will be getting DLNA 4.0 with the 4.0 firmware update?

Just for fun, let's do a Google search! When I search for "dlna 4.0" ps4, all the top results are you blathering on rather than resources of actual consequence.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sure thing!

[clicks over to http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...DLNA-4.0-Transforms-Connected-Home-Experience ]

CTRL+F for "PS3". Nope! Nothing.
CTRL+F for "PS4". Nope! Nothing.
CTRL+F for "PlayStation". Nope! Nothing.
CTRL+F for "firmware". Nope! Nothing.

Gesh, maybe you should read it again, chief. Did you post the wrong link? Where's the one that says that the PS4 will be getting DLNA 4.0 with the 4.0 firmware update?

"Adam's interpretation is based on not knowing what the categories mean." You still haven't read the categories and seen the 4k and LESS = 1080P because Playready ND is required for 1080P also.


The logic of the DLNA categories appears to be chosen to make the PS3 and PS4 DLNA 4 STBs. It does not follow what I consider a logical progression as there should be a STB that supports 1080P across the board between DLNA 2 and DLNA 3. You also have DLNA client and server and at a minimum the PS3 and PS4 will be DLNA 4 clients with the PS4 I think also a DLNA4 server, for sure the XB1 launch is a DLNA 4 server.

 

[Adam Tyner]

"Adam's interpretation is based on not knowing what the categories mean."

It is literally not an interpretation. If you post a link to an article/press release and say "The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0", and that link makes no mention of the PS4, let alone the 4.0 firmware upgrade, then it's very factual and logical to say "that link makes no mention of the PS4, let alone the 4.0 firmware upgrade".

Do you know what an interpretation is? You don't understand the difference between fact and speculation, so I can see how that might be troublesome for you.

 

[JaseC]

Jeff, since you seem ever-confident that the "launch" PS4 and X1 (i.e. models that are not the X1 S or so-called PS4K) will each receive a firmware update enabling UHD BD support by "[the] second week of October" and claim to have better on your predictions to the tune of earning thousands of dollars, are you up for an AUD$100 wager? If, come October 10th at 12:05am PT (that's the second Monday of October), no such update has presented itself for either console, you lose; if both consoles have been updated in such a fashion by that time, I lose; and if one console receives such an update but the other does not, we'll call it a tie. Announcements of the updates do not count; they have to be released by the time the countdown timer below hits zero, since that's what you've been asserting in earnest.

Edit: It's now 24 hours later and you haven't responded despite being online several times and bumping the thread no less than thrice, so I suppose I have my answer.

 

[mitchman]

Read the post again especially the bold parts outside the quote.

I did. Nothing about PS4 getting DLNA 4.0. How can you say for certain based on a _theory_ you have that it might get it? There's a definition for this and it's called cognitive distortion.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It is literally not an interpretation. If you post a link to an article/press release and say "The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0", and that link makes no mention of the PS4, let alone the 4.0 firmware upgrade, then it's very factual and logical to say "that link makes no mention of the PS4, let alone the 4.0 firmware upgrade".

Do you know what an interpretation is? You don't understand the difference between fact and speculation, so I can see how that might be troublesome for you.

Are you saying that the categories don't apply to any existing STBs because they are not listed or Vidipath is not going to be supported by any existing STBs because they are not listed in the Vidipath site???

The PS3 is currently DLNA 1.5 certified and the PS4 is not DLNA certified at all.

Again the PS3 is listed as HD Capable in the EU paper and it's getting a Playready embedded port. It was in a PDF sent to the FCC with the PS3 pictured as a RVU and Vidipath client = DLNA4 client. Same for the PS4.

You apparently don't want any speculation so is the following probable?
The PS3 and PS4 are getting Firmware updates to support DLNA and Vidipath
Will the PS3 and PS4 support 1080P as Vidipath clients?
If so they are DLNA 4 clients.
1080P support is DLNA 4.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Are you saying that the categories don't apply to any existing STBs because they are not listed or Vidipath is not going to be supported by any existing STBs because they are not listed in the Vidipath site???

I've said what I think (know, actually) several times already this morning. Do you need me to post it again?

 

[Zackat]

Jeff, since you seem ever-confident that the "launch" PS4 and X1 (i.e. models that are not the X1 S or so-called PS4K) will each receive a firmware update enabling UHD BD support by "[the] second week of October" and claim to have better on your predictions to the tune of earning thousands of dollars, are you up for an AUD$100 wager? If, come October 10th at 12:05am PT (that's the second Monday of October), no such update has presented itself for either console, you lose; if both consoles have been updated in such a fashion by that time, I lose; and if one console receives such an update but the other does not, we'll call it a tie. Announcements of the updates do not count; they have to be released by the time the countdown timer below hits zero, since that's what you've been asserting in earnest.

Cold hard dollarydoos

 

[jeff_rigby]

The following is a report from independent inspector Intertek dated May 2016 and attested to as accurate by Laboratory Manager Caroline Blenkhorn

6.3 Power consumption requirements

All the Signatories complied with the power consumption requirements given in the SRI (Tier 1).
Three Ultra High Definition games consoles were included under the SRI; two models of the Sony PlayStation 4 and the Microsoft Xbox One. The latest version of the PlayStation 4 (the 12 series) and the Xbox One met the requirements for Tier 2 for Media Playback Mode even though this requirement did not come into force until January 2016.

All Signatories were compliant for standby power limits and Auto-Power Down.

Page 12 again states the Model numbers of the XB1 and PS4 that are UHD. These are the 2013 and 2015 PS4 and the 2013 XB1.

Adam, if you want to hold to strict compliance - no speculation, the XB1 Slim is only a rumor and we can not say it will be UHD capable or support UHD blu-ray. We only have a saleman's word for this vs. a Lab test for the Launch consoles.

Stacy Spears is not an engineer, he looks at video and reports on the quality of that video. He was not at Microsoft for 8 months prior to the release of the HEVC profile 10 codec which is labeled HD. the duty cycle of that codec could also support UHD. Since the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable it has to support UHD HEVC.

UHD capable is a FACT for the Launch consoles and not yet a FACT for the XB1 Slim, Scorpio or PS4 NEO. Microsoft and Sony could decide to not support UHD or UHD BLu-ray at any time prior to release on any one or all of them. This is your view not mine.

Get over it, ALL PS4 and XB1 versions will be UHD capable. The only speculation is now the DRIVE. 14 pages wasted arguing what was obvious.

We go beyond testing, inspecting and certifying products; we are a Total Quality Assurance provider to industries worldwide. Through our global network of state-of-the-art facilities and industry-leading technical expertise we provide innovative and bespoke Assurance, Testing, Inspection and Certification services to customers.

http://efficientgaming.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Minutes_Steering_Committee_3_June_2016.pdf

Representing Sony https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-aslan-b5808495
Representing Microsoft https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-calland-6aa33a7

 

[Adam Tyner]

Page 12 again states the Model numbers of the XB1 and PS4 that are UHD. These are the 2013 and 2015 PS4 and the 2013 XB1.

More EU power consumption documents. Sigh.

Do the documents say that the launch Xbox One plays Ultra HD Blu-ray discs? If not, it's irrelevant to this thread.

Adam, if you want to hold to strict compliance - no speculation, the XB1 Slim is only a rumor and we can not say it will be UHD capable or support UHD blu-ray. We only have a saleman's word for this vs. a Lab test for the Launch consoles.

The Xbox One S has been officially announced, therefore it's not a rumor or speculation.

Tell me more about the lab tests, though! How did Netflix UHD streaming look on the launch consoles? Are the rumors true that Ultra HD Blu-ray discs won't bitstream audio on the Xbox One? Oh! None of that happened. They're just using "UHD" as a heading rather than literally playing Ultra HD media. Gotcha.

Since the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable it has to support UHD HEVC.

According to more than one of your documents, that's not true. They just need to "[have] potential of rendering video output with resolutions greater or equal to 4Kx2K (3840 pixels x 2160)", which is hardly the same thing as being able to play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs.

Stacy Spears is not an engineer

False. Have you actually looked at his résumé? For crying out loud, several of his titles at Microsoft (more than one, by the way) literally have the word "engineer" in them.

I know spelling (and facts, accuracy, etc.) is not your strong suit, but it's "Stacey", by the way.

 

[Hutty211]

This is my favorite thread on NeoGAF.

 

[jeff_rigby]

More EU power consumption documents. Sigh.

Does it say that it plays Ultra HD Blu-ray discs? If not, it's irrelevant to this thread.

It's been officially announced, therefore it's not a rumor or speculation.

False. Have you actually looked at his résumé? For crying out loud, several of his titles at Microsoft (more than one, by the way) literally have the word "engineer" in them.

I know spelling (and facts, accuracy, etc.) is not your strong suit, but it's "Stacey", by the way.

I am getting tired of this;

It's a signed REPORT from an International Compliance firm. A signed LAB report trumps a sales announcement. They actually had to test the power required while in UHD media mode!!!!!!! What is not known is if one of them was UHD Blu-ray.

Everything you have posted has been rumor. You are at this point -0- % accurate with a potential to be 33% if the XB1 and PS4 drive can't support UHD Blu-ray and I am 66% accurate and potentially 100%.

This thread is about UHD blu-ray and two of the three hardware requirements have been proved.

 

[Adam Tyner]

I am getting tired of this

Me too!

It's a signed REPORT from an International Compliance firm. A signed LAB report trumps a sales announcement.

...a lab report that involves power consumption, not actually playing Ultra HD media. They're using UHD as a heading. Show me all the details about UHD playback in these lab tests. Are they using Netflix UHD? Ultra HD Blu-ray discs? Amazon Video UHD? None of the above? Why have none of these features on either console been made available to end users? Why are there no rumors, announcements, or anything other than irrelevant EU power consumption documents making any reference to this capability?

In fact, let's see what sorts of media are referenced in this document:

No Ultra HD streaming, no Ultra HD Blu-ray discs...hell of a lab test there on Ultra HD capability! No wonder you're so enamored with this report!

Everything you have posted has been rumor.

If they're directly from relevant people at Microsoft and Sony, they're not rumors.

You are at this point -0- % accurate with a potential to be 33% if the XB1 and PS4 drive can't support UHD Blu-ray and I am 66% accurate and potentially 100%.

I'd love to see that math!

The only assertions I'm making are that your methodology is poorly founded and that there is no meaningful evidence that Ultra HD Blu-ray playback will be coming to the launch consoles. In fact, all the evidence points in the exact opposite direction. To the best of my knowledge, I'm 100% on that!

Your evidence to the contrary is limited to a three year old quote from a Microsoft VP and a bunch of EU power consumption documents that never actually detail anything about UHD playback.

This thread is about UHD blu-ray and two of the three hardware requirements have been proved.

No, they haven't.

 

[dr_rus]

This is my favorite thread on NeoGAF.

Shepard?