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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
His judgment cometh and that right soon.
regardless of what you say the spec of the drive is (an irrelevant response), the patent you are talking about does not imply the upgrade to compatibility that you claim. The inverse of the patent disabling some semi-compatibility does not imply full compatibility. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Stop introducing strawmen responses every time your faulty logic is revealed.
"appear to be firmware" is equally your own supposition, which has no foundation in fact.
SwordStruck
Member
"Appear to be firmware".
I don't get it. I thought the biggest push behind your thinking was that you were certain the drives only needed a firmware update to be compatible. Do you have any evidence at all to support this ability?
I don't get it. I thought the biggest push behind your thinking was that you were certain the drives only needed a firmware update to be compatible. Do you have any evidence at all to support this ability?
Rellik
Member
It should be stickied.
jeff_rigby
Banned
A HEVC codec to comply with DRM requirements must also be managed by/in the TEE. The GCN GPU and X-86 CPU are not in the TEE. This is something that is KNOWN by everyone and it is a huge oversight by Spears showing he is not knowledgeable. You also can't use the VCE for encoding DRM media as it is outside the TEE. This is why the XB1 has both the VCE AVC h.264 and HEVC h.265 encoder for game streaming and a AVC h.264 encoder in the TEE.
The PS4 has a BD-ROM/BD-R drive and a BD-R drive can read a three layer disk unless it's 6 years or older. The PS3 was updated to BD-R V2.0 in 2008. BD-R V3 from 2010 can read version 2 three layer disks (66 and 100 GB). This makes Ito's statement suspect.
Adam, these are obvious serious errors in their statements that are confirm able. A few minutes researching and you will be satisfied that you can not use their statements.
I do not expect anyone to accept my statements at face value which is why I provide cites. As for the Wiki quote obviously not being supported by the cite, it's almost as bad as using Spears and Ito cites as sources when they have within them OBVIOUS serious errors.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Months ago less was known except for 66GB/100GB three layer disks with the Sony-Panasonic tweak which was called a Version 2 disk which would be required for UHD disks. The speculation was that this would just need a firmware update for newer drives which proved to be correct. BUT in finding the Mount Fuji drive book and reading the difference between BD-ROM3 and BD-ROM4 drives there are firmware changes with technical descriptions that appear to me with my limited technical understanding to be just firmware. The purpose as I understand, it's to create a UHD mode in the drive that uses registers differently so that a HD player can't work with the drive when it's in UHD mode.
Several features described for the BD-ROM4 drive in PCs are not needed when used in an Embedded or Game Console. BDROM Mark, BD+, AACS 2 are essentially the same as in HD drives/players with the requirement that those routines run in the TEE along with the Player and HEVC Codec. Of course HDCP2.2 mapped to the HDMI chip is also required to run in the TEE so that encryped AACS2 enters the TEE and HDCP 2.2 encrypted exits the TEE.
Edit: The blu-ray drive in the PS4 has a Sony Daughter board. The daughter board has all the electronics. A BD-ROM HD and UHD drive are physically identical, only the electronics MAY be different and Sony manufactured the daughter board. Apparently Sony doesn't make blu-ray drives for PCs since 2013 but they have a BDA licence for a UHD PC drive and Player. If a third party drive is firmware update-able then Sony can use their licence and provide the paring server and Whitelist server which are required for PC drives.
Mase Gumble
Member
I genuinely don't think I've ever wanted something to be more true in my life. Hashtag IBelieveIn_rigby.
Adam Tyner
Member
The Xbox One uses AVC for streaming/recording. Provide documentation indicating that the Xbox One has a dedicated HEVC encoder. Your speculation based on an AMD slide from a presentation last year does not qualify as proof.
Also, this:
is a gross misquoting of what Spears actually said. Don't insert things I never wrote when quoting me.
There is a world of difference between what you're wrongly associating with Spears and what he actually said:
He flat-out, unambiguously says that the software decoder is capable of Netflix UHD quality. The onslaught of misinformation you sling out is shameful.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The point is: 1) you can not use the X-86 CPU or GCN GPU for a DRM codec which Netflix would require. 2) He said it was too slow. 3) The XB1 has a VCE 3 The slide says HEVC game streaming to PC, that is not speculation.what he actually said said:
You have a habit of dismissing in print statements of fact from AMD, Sony and Microsoft if they disagree with your opinion yet you believe statements which have serious errors in them because they state what you believe. You complain about my making statements of fact when it should be labeled speculation but what you do is worse.
GearDraxon
Member
It was actually locked in 2013, but won't appear as such until post #888.
why would we lock one of the best conspiracy threads in years?
Gamezone
Gold Member
Feel free to ignore it.
Adam Tyner
Member
Please point to in-print statements of fact from AMD, Sony, and Microsoft where they say:
(1) that the launch version of either console has a dedicated HEVC encoder/decoder
(2) that whatever HEVC decoding methods can be used in these consoles can accommodate Ultra HD Blu-ray framerates/bitrates
(3) that Ultra HD Blu-ray playback is coming to the launch versions of these consoles
(4) that the Blu-ray drives in the launch consoles can be firmware-updated to support Ultra HD Blu-ray media
The AMD slide you so frequently reference doesn't explicitly address #1, and there's nothing elsewhere to substantiate the leaps you're making. Sony has never affirmed Ultra HD Blu-ray support for the launch PS4, to the best of my knowledge. As for the only affirmation of Ultra HD Blu-ray support for the launch Xbox One, it dates back to nearly three years prior to the format's launch from a guy who also said "Kinect will always be integral to Xbox One" and who just the other day had to backpedal from an erroneous statement. Sorry, I do give someone with Stacey Spears' immense credentials and relevant experience more weight than that.
As I've said many, many times, even if the consoles are capable of Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, that's no guarantee that it'll be implemented. My primary issue all along has been that you refuse to present your speculation as such, instead passing it off as absolute fact.
Monster post incoming. Take cover.
NoctisVsStar
Member
This is the equivalent of UFO/Bigfoot hunters.
SwordStruck
Member
We don't even know if the AMD slide was referencing Xbox One S capability. Either way, the tech that AMD claims is supported by hardware has no guarantee at all of being implemented by Microsoft. If Microsoft thinks they can make more money by marketing the S as a UHD capable device (Which they are doing), there is no incentive for them to update a slow moving 3 year old device to compete with their new hardware.
EchoChamber
Member
I don't understand anything, what fight is fighting this guy?
jeff_rigby
Banned
For DRM media the codec has to be in the TEE and this is true for UHD streaming media and UHD blu-ray.
This means the OS/driver provided with co-operation between Microsoft and AMD (Microsoft is called by AMD a Trustzone partner) have to provide the HEVC codec as ARM code encrypted and key signed to be called by an API and loaded into the ARM trustzone TEE. In the past the codec and DRM could be part of the app like with Netflix on the PS4.
This is why we are having this discussion on HEVC support and a firmware update by the manufacturer providing it. Same is going to be true for Playready Embedded as parts of Playready are provided by Microsoft as a Porting kit and the manufacturer has to install them as part of the OS that is loaded to the TEE after a trustzone trusted boot. Parts of the Player app requires a server for the Key at least the first time it's used and the TEE parts of the player are then encrypted with a private key for only that platform.
If anyone has a better understanding or can explain this better jump in.
Edit: The description by Spencer for the XB1 Slim and Spears ECHOING it for a Hardware HEVC codec (which must be part of the TEE) gives us a clue that the Manufacturer has to provide the Codec. The assumption that only a hardware codec would be fast enough keeps many from understanding that the key is the manufacturer has to provide the codec be it Software, Hybrid or Hardware based and it has to run in a TEE.
So with the above being true a UHD platform has to connect to the internet at least once to enable UHD media including blu-ray. A PC must connect to the internet at least when the UHD player app is installed. From that point onward occasional connection to the internet is required to check the whitelist server and I think every new UHD disk used requires at least one connection to the internet for AACS2 key authorization for that disk.
Edit: Embedded players and Game consoles can do some of this at the factory before they are shipped. Game Consoles already on the market have to wait for the Key servers to be on-line which explains Spears statement that the XB1 Slim will be the first Game Console with UHD blu-ray support.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I've gone over this before.
1) AMD said they use the same technology to support HEVC that the XB1 uses.
2) The XB1 can LOW LATENCY game stream HEVC to PCs. Since encoding HEVC is much harder to do that decoding and it has to be low latency, it must be a hardware codec. AMD provided the VCE for both the PS4 and XB1 APU. AMD Carrizo and all AMD dGPUs (GCN 1.2 and later) have VCE 3 and UVD 6. VCE 3 is a AVC h.264 and HEVC h.265 hardware codec for game streaming that can NOT be used for DRM media because it is outside the TEE. UVD 6 is a software based Xtensa DSP accelerated codec in the TEE. It can support HEVC decode.
Edit: Only the VCE encoder is likely to be AMD provided for the XB1 and PS4. The XB1 and PS4 are using Xtrensa DSP as accelerators same as the AMD's UVD but they are probably custom and may not have optimized hardware blocks for HEVC that AMD's UVD 6 has. Since the Xtensa DSP blocks are also going to be used for VR/Vision processing having a more powerful Xtensa DSP block to do double duty is not a waste. I'd guess the HEVC hardware block in the XB1 SLIM is part of the Xtensa DSP block and just makes it more efficient for HEVC which matches the description of the changes to UVD 6 to support HEVC.
Spears and Ito comments have within them serious errors that are easily confirmed. They also directly conflict with Sony and Microsoft letters as well as a report by an independent lab that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable. Yet you continue to defend those statements by Spears and Ito which requires you to ignore/dismiss and claim the official letters are not reliable. You dismiss a slide from AMD and statements from AMD that they use the same technology the XB1 uses for HEVC because Spears and Ito say the Launch XB1 does not have a HEVC codec.
You and others assume Spencer's statement about the XB1 Slim being the first to support HDMI 2 and hardware HEVC as well as UHD blu-ray means more than it does at face value. It will be the first as the others will get firmware updated later. This must be the case if the Launch XB1 and PS4 are UHD capable.
Adam Tyner
Member
...except Phil Spencer also said:
Why don't you take that at face value?
Just to recap, these are the sorts of things I've been bringing up:
January 2015 - Netflix chief product officer Neil Hunt says a hardware revision would be necessary for the PS4 to play 4K media. Hunt says that a capable model was "promised" for a release in 2015. To be clear, he's talking specifically about streaming, but if the launch PS4 can't stream UHD video, it certainly can't handle the far more significant demands of Ultra HD Blu-ray.
February 2015 - Netflix clarifies that they're not in a position to make announcements for Sony's hardware plans but expect a 2015 hardware refresh for both the Xbox One and PS4, at which time 4K video support would be added. Netflix expressly references physical, new hardware; this is not a firmware update.
October 2015 - Masayasu Ito, who now leads Hardware Engineering and Operation for Sony Computer Entertainment, says that the launch PS4 cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. He cites the lack of a dedicated HEVC decoder and the lack of a capable optical drive.
June 2016 - Stacey Spears, a longtime Microsoft employee who was involved with everything associated with video/graphics output from the conception of the Xbox One, says that the launch Xbox One cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. He cites the lack of a dedicated HEVC decoder and the lack of a capable optical drive. A CPU-heavy software decoder that Microsoft developed can handle HEVC-encoded UHD video to a point, but it's nowhere close to approaching what UHD BD demands.
June 2016 - Frank O'Connor, one of the key Halo guys, cites the lack of a capable optical drive among the reasons the launch Xbox One cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs.
June 2016 - Phil Spencer, the head of all things Xbox, cites HDMI upgrades and the addition of a capable optical drive among the reasons the not-yet-released Xbox One S can play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. He makes it a point to say that these features are not in the original Xbox One.
June 2016 - Xbox product manager Aaron Greenberg says that if existing Xbox One owners want 4K video and HDR before the holidays, they can get those features by upgrading to the Xbox One S.
June 2016 - Dave McCarthy, head of Xbox operations, says that the Xbox One S offers step-changes in technology over the launch Xbox One, specifically 4K video playback and Ultra HD Blu-ray support.
Several of the people referenced above were expressly, explicitly dismissing Ultra HD Blu-ray playback on the launch consoles, so there's no guesswork, connecting the dots, or speculation associated with a good number of those notes. You say that I've been callously disregarding the mountain of opposing evidence directly from Microsoft, Sony, and AMD. For that evidence to refute what I've been referencing, it needs to:
(a) debunk the idea that a new optical drive is necessary
(b) either debunk the idea that a dedicated HEVC decoder is necessary, or show that a dedicated HEVC decoder is present in the launch versions of these consoles; any decoding method would have to be proven to handle the bitrates/framerates for UHD BD, which are very different than streaming UHD
(c) debunk the idea that updated HDMI tech is necessary
- or -
(d) state that the launch consoles are capable of Ultra HD Blu-ray playback with a firmware update, which would inherently address points a, b, and c above.
None of what you just posted accomplishes any of that. You say I'm ignoring a wealth of evidence directly from AMD, Microsoft, and Sony when none of that actually exists; many direct, unambiguous statements from Microsoft and Sony are instead dismissed by you as lies and ignorance. Your entire argument -- all of the "evidence" you keep pointing to -- is predicated on guesswork and speculation. Show me a press release or interview where someone from AMD or Microsoft boasts about how forward-looking they were by including a dedicated H.265 encoder in the Xbox One. How about a help page from xbox.com detailing how to stream gameplay from the console using HEVC instead of AVC? (Even then, the assumption is that the presence of a dedicated HEVC encoder means that there's a dedicated HEVC decoder capable of addressing Ultra HD Blu-ray quality video, which gets into "connecting the dots" territory. I'd be willing to accept that, though.) Do you have any quotes from, say, the past 2 years affirming Ultra HD Blu-ray support? It sure does look like every remotely recent statement from Microsoft and Sony is saying the same thing, and it's not "oh, yeah, there's a UHD BD firmware updating coming in October."
For what you're saying to be true, a veritable army of knowledgeable, talented people from Microsoft and Sony would have to be nefariously conspiring together or just plain be incompetent...although despite the lies and incompetency, they'll somehow have firmware updates for Ultra HD Blu-ray playback in a couple of months anyway. (???) How many glaringly incorrect things have you posted again? How many times have you backpedaled? Initially, I started posting in these threads because people were being misled by the tripe you were passing off as fact. No one seems to be buying into your outlandish conspiracy theories anymore, so there is no point in attempting to carry on this sort of conversation with you. You are beyond the reach of logic or reason.
giant_frying_pan
Member
jeff_rigby shipped a coherent, non-nonsensical NeoGAF post, with no jargon, acronyms or abbreviations, in 2016.
Less than six months to go. But what can I say...? I'm an optimist 
jeff_rigby
Banned
Lets take this cite directly from the source rather than your paraphrasing. The Forbes article quoting this stating the launch XB1 and PS4 could not support UHD Blu-ray or Netflix UHD is why I started the thread that they would.
1) Eventually support HDR means that HDR is firmware update-able as I have been saying, HDR is applied to the video in the TEE before HDCP 2.2 using feedback over the HDMI port from the Display based on what it can support. The HDMI 2.0a spec is the negotiation standard that is passing negotiation to the TEE.http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/12/tv-hdr-4k-ces-2015-netflix_n_6455936.html said:
2) If you look at the April 2015 First letter to the EU power board from Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo; Firmware updates to support UHD Media mode were supposed to occur Jan 2016 and the next Navigation Power mode tier in 2017 was for the new consoles that "Hardware supported HDMI 2 and HEVC". From the timing (Forbes has this happening at the end of the year 2015) Netflix was talking about a software update to the Launch consoles to support UHD not a Hardware revision that was not supposed to occur till 2017 a year later.
Again, your paraphrasing. Ito said the PS4 drive can not read three layers which a BD-R Version 3.0 (2010 spec) drive can read and the PS4 has a 2013 BD-ROM/BD-R drive according to Sony.
Again you are paraphrasing Spencer and Spears post on the same day is mis-understanding what Spencer said. The original quote is:
You can take that as a statement that applies to all XB1 versions or assume it's only possible with the XB1 Slim. The April and later letters to the EU power board require the former, it applies to all XB1 versions even the launch.
Again a day after Spencer's article. Is he in the loop? If he was he would know the Launch XB1 is UHD capable and have critiqued the assumptions based on Spencer's article.
Opps, this might mean the PS4 and XB1 Launch consoles are not getting UHD blu-ray support till after the holidays. I might loose the bet with JaseC.
Still doesn't preclude 4K and UHD blu-ray coming to the launch consoles but it supports they won't get it in 2016.
Adam, for all these people to believe as you have paraphrased , the Launch PS4 and XB1 can not be UHD capable. You must believe a conspiracy involving the EU and multiple firms who say on their websites that they represent Sony and Microsoft are stating the Launch game consoles are UHD capable to hoodwink anyone who reads the .EU site. OR everyone is misunderstanding statements talking about an eventual firmware update.
Adam, a console shipping in August can have the drive paired and HEVC codec/player/BD+/AACS2/ BD-ROM mark routines encrypted and key signed for the individual consoles at the factory. An existing Launch game console has to do this with a server using a public key creating an encrypted private key version of all those routines that will only work on that individual Game Console TEE. This is likely the reason the XB1 SLIM will have UHD blu-ray before the other game consoles. NEO could be the same with UHD support before the launch consoles.
Adam Tyner
Member
What is "paraphrasingi"? It sounds contagious!
Nope! Direct quote from the article in question:
Hardware rev != software update
Another direct quote from the article in question:
Hardware refresh != software update
...so he's saying that the drive is not capable of reading Ultra HD Blu-ray media. What did I say that's incorrect?
Spears' post is not a direct response to anything Spencer said. He was involved in the guts of the Xbox One from the start; he certainly doesn't need to divine the innards based on someone else's interview. They also both say that the Xbox One S has hardware that the launch Xbox One does not. What misunderstanding are you talking about?
Spears also says that the launch Xbox One can't read triple-layer media.
No, you can't. He's talking about adding different HDMI tech and a different optical drive!
Nonsense. Also, in the most recently submitted EU power consumption document, Microsoft lists the Xbox One as "high definition" rather than "ultra high definition capable". Have you forgotten already?
Backpedaling again, then?
I actually very much believe that the consoles meet the definition of "UHD Capable" spelled out in those documents. The documents' definition of "UHD Capable" and yours are two very different things.
fudgey_lumpkins
Member
What's the end game here? Is it to prove that current consoles actual can support something that they have been said to not support? If you do prove this then what? Do you intend to launch a lawsuit to force manufactures to enable the features without requiring the purchase of new hardware?
Even if it was proven, intentionally gimping hardware requiring the purchase of a premium model to get additional features has been done time and time again and is not illegal so it isn't as if manufactures could be automatically compelled to enable the feature in models currently on the market.
Even if it was proven, intentionally gimping hardware requiring the purchase of a premium model to get additional features has been done time and time again and is not illegal so it isn't as if manufactures could be automatically compelled to enable the feature in models currently on the market.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Adam Tyner
Member
Jeff is claiming that not only is Ultra HD Blu-ray playback possible on the launch consoles, but that it's coming in the next few months. He insists that anyone saying otherwise (including a key person from Sony and a half-battalion of folks from Microsoft) is lying or ignorant. Since no one at either company has affirmed UHD BD playback for the launch consoles since 2013, that's a mighty long list.
Adam Tyner
Member
Doesn't exactly bolster your claims, does it?
Link to that document at efficientgaming.eu.
jeff_rigby
Banned
What it shows if the Netflix quote is accurate is that it's waiting on a firmware update. I believe the Netflix quote misunderstood and a firmware update not new hardware was coming to enable UHD. If that is the case then the 2015 PS4 not supporting UHD in 2015 makes sense.
In any case a firmware update is coming to enable UHD on the three Launch consoles. Evidence of a need for a major firmware update with APIs from Southbridge is everywhere. Your belief that they will only support (HD) what they now support is not logical. The PS3 is NOT ALLOWED to support DRM media at greater than 1080P (HD resolution) which is why it is a HD Console yet the HDMI port (1.3/1/4) can support UHD resolutions at 30Hz. A UHD capable console is allowed to display DRM media at UHD resolutions.
The XB1 Slim shipping the same month Windows 10 is getting an update is in my opinion not a coincidence. The XB1 slim will ship with UHD blu-ray ARM TEE routines encrypted and key signed to the individual platform. The HTML5 <Video> EME dash player will be able to use the UHD Blu-ray HEVC codec in the browser and with APPs like Netflix.
A console shipping in August can have the drive paired and HEVC codec/player/BD+/AACS2/ BD-ROM mark routines encrypted and key signed for the individual consoles at the factory. An existing Launch game console has to do this with a server using a public key creating an encrypted private key version of all those routines that will only work on that individual Game Console TEE. This is likely the reason the XB1 SLIM will have UHD blu-ray before the other game consoles. NEO could be the same with UHD support before the launch consoles.
So a firmware update for UHD media is useless without the public key server and the Launch game consoles have to have a routine to create the private key encrypted versions of the UHD capable and UHD blu-ray routines that use the TEE.
Adam Tyner
Member
...except Netflix repeatedly and expressly references new hardware revisions in 2015, not firmware updates in 2016 for existing consoles. The quotes cannot be accurate if you're changing them to say something completely different.
If someone were to say "McDonald's french fries are made by sauteeing turnips, " a reasonable person wouldn't reply "that quote is accurate if you were talking about deep-frying potatoes instead."
There's no evidence that the quotes you've rewritten on Netflix's behalf are correct anyway.
Just remember that this is the Ultra HD Blu-ray thread, so if you have a case that involves only streaming UHD, it's really not relevant.
I'm not saying that these consoles will never be able to stream UHD video. It's true that there is no evidence that this is coming, though.
Where this argument falls apart is that the launch Xbox One and PS4, according to numerous reputable sources directly from these companies, are not nor will they ever be capable of playing UItra HD Blu-ray discs. It doesn't matter if a public key server is online or not if the discs cannot be played.
jeff_rigby
Banned
If the quote is accurate then where is the hardware revision with UHD Netflix was promised for 2015? Something is wrong and I am proposing a reason. You are assuming the quote is still accurate when it has proven to not be accurate. Why?
No evidence but the Netflix quote has been proven to be inaccurate. Why?
UHD Capable is 2/3 of the way to UHD Blu-ray. I started by showing a Trustzone TEE containing Xtensa accelerators to support HEVC and HDMI 2's HDCP2.2 were in the XB1 and PS4. I was time and time again called crazy for that view. We are now hopefully at the point where we can lay that to rest after 17 pages of arguing over what UHD Capable means in the EU papers.
Can the drive in the launch consoles support UHD Blu-ray?
1) it can be firmware updated or has already been firmware updated to support BD-R version 2 which is the version 2 disk used by UHD blu-ray.
2) There are other changes to drive registers in the Mount Fuji book from 8 to 9 that I think just require a firmware update. The changes to the registers are not needed to read a version 2 disk, the drive is put into a mode when it reads certain sectors of the UHD disk and that mode only works with a UHD player software designed to use those registers. This is also true for UHD media on a 25 or 50 GB version 1.4 disk.
3) If we can take Spencer's statement at face value then Microsoft included a UHD blu-ray drive in the Launch XB1 consoles. For sure the changes I read do not require much in the way of electronics so a UHD blu-ray drive should be a HD drive or within pennies of a HD blu-ray drive which lends support to Spencer's statement.
Adam Tyner
Member
I never said that the quote is accurate. I was replying to this:
I'm saying that you can't take someone else's quote, change it to say something completely different, and pretend that's proof of anything. What Netflix said obviously didn't pan out the way they expected. It also doesn't have a blessed thing to do with firmware updates. You can't say "well, they were talking about hardware revisions in 2015, but what they really meant were firmware updates in 2016 for 2013-era consoles!"
The quotes from Netflix are telling in that they indicate that hardware revisions are necessary for UHD streaming. If everything can be done with a firmware update for the 2013 consoles, there's no reason for them to talk about hardware revisions at all.
SystemUser
Member
I think I am now Team jeff_rigby.
Jeff can you add the Wii U too? I am sure Nintendo is holding out on us with the UHD bluray playback.
Jeff can you add the Wii U too? I am sure Nintendo is holding out on us with the UHD bluray playback.
Adam Tyner
Member
"UHD Capable" is not a proper noun. It is not a generally accepted industry term with a specific definition, and it is not the name of anything at all. Stop trying to make 'fetch' happen. It's not going to happen.
You have not successfully demonstrated that these consoles have the ability to play Ultra HD Blu-ray-grade video. Not all things HEVC are created equal.
Yes. It means what the EU papers say it does, which, alas, differs from the definition you've invented.
He said they had to add a new type of optical drive into the Xbox One S to support Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. This is the exact opposite of what you've invented.
You think? When did this change? (Despite what may look like duplicates, these are all separate posts, by the way.)
Gotta say, I'm not seeing a lot of "I think"s in there. It sure is a good thing you did the research and know what modern BD drives can support! Wouldn't want to write anything stupid.
(Also, guess who had oodles of time to kill at work today?)
Stinkles has 12 posts in this thread.
The word "help" has four letters.
12 - 4 = 8
Frankie confirmed that the launch Xbox One supports UHD blu-rays.
Gamezone
Gold Member
The next Halo collection will fit on one single disc confirmed.
8? Does that mean that with the help of Xtensa multimedia accelerators, Xbox Scorpio will have 8 TF? Holy shit! Thread-worthy?
@Adam:
I love your dedication to dissect Jeff's post and post history.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Can anybody summarize what's going on? Preferably in a non-technobable language.
Gamezone
Gold Member
Jeff claims that the PS4 and Xbox One will be UHD capable with an upcoming firmware update. No one agrees, including people from Microsoft.
mitchman
Gold Member
Jeff Rigby lives in a reality distortion field where XBox One and PS4 has a UHD capable BD drive even though there are statements from key MS and Sony people saying it doesn't and that there is no h265 hardware decoder. This thread has gone medical.
jeff_rigby
Banned
That is misleading. There are letters to a GOVERNMENT agency signed by an Independent lab, Microsoft and Sony employees and representatives that have descriptions of the 2013 XB1 and PS4 as well as the 2015 version of the PS4 as UHD Capable. In one of those letters the PS3 is listed as a HD console while the XB1 and PS4 are listed as UHD Capable.
Adam has cites from salesmen and former employees of Microsoft that the launch consoles do not have a HDMI 2 port or the ability to support HEVC. For those cites to be true the launch consoles can not be UHD capable.
Adam is standing on the definition of UHD Capable as having the same support for UHD media the PS3 has with a HDMI 1.4 port. The PS3 can but will not be allowed to display UHD media that requires DRM. A UHD capable console or STB will be allowed to display UHD DRM media. This is why the PS3 is called a HD console.
The Launch PS4 has Playready and WMDRM in the intellectual notice. Playready versions before 3.0 have WMDRM as a subset. Only Playready 3 requires a separate WMDRM. If the PS4 has Playready 3 it supports UHD DRM and is UHD Capable. Cerny Says the PS4 Southbridge has a trustzone TEE processor and it's own 256MB DDR3 memory which is the hardware required by Playready 3 to be UHD capable. This confirms the EU Letters stating the XB1 and PS4 are UHD Capable and that the definition has to include support for UHD DRM.http://www.pcworld.com/article/2908089/all-about-playready-30-microsofts-secret-plan-to-lock-down-4k-movies-to-your-pc.html said:
HD and UHD media streaming in the home require Playready ND, lower resolutions require WMDRM. Microsoft mentions Playready ND in Game consoles for DVR (2013) and Microsoft mentioned 1080P support for the DVR (June 2015) coming for the XB1 now on hold. 1080P Antenna TV support is only needed for ATSC 3 which is UHD Antenna TV which requires HEVC. Playready ND is also needed for the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge and Sony wants every UHD blu-ray player to also support the Digital bridge, this includes the Game Consoles. They want the same functionality that Ultraviolet has/will have as it will be streamed in the home too.
UHD blu-ray Digital bridge ties in with Vidipath and Playready ND. This is how the Game Consoles compete with the cheaper ARM UHD STBs which do not have a Hard Disk or UHD Blu-ray drive. The XB1 and PS4 are Media Hubs for the other STBs in the home streaming games and Media (HD & UHD) to Phones, tablets and STBs in the home. This is how PCs, XB1 and PS4 capture the China market and why the initial markets have high speed internet.
I have shown the marketing reasons the PS4 and XB1 will support UHD Blu-ray with digital bridge then that it is possible for the Launch XB1 and PS4 to have the hardware to be UHD capable in 2013 and then found the EU letters that confirm this. UHD blu-ray with digital bridge will be supported by the 40 million launch PS4 and XB1 Game Consoles. Either a blu-ray drive is firmware upgrade-able or Microsoft and Sony spent a few pennies more for a drive that could support the UHD spec. That would be much easier than creating the hardware (Xtensa DSP block) supporting HEVC or contracting with Panasonic for a custom HDMI2 to support HDCP2.2 in the TEE mapped to the HDMI chip.
Years ago I found a Chinese ARM STB for sale on-line that claimed it would support UHD BLU-RAY but it did not have a blu-ray drive. This was before the Sony hack that published Sony internal documents mentioning the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge using Playready ND. Apparently along with the shipping of the Playready 3/ND porting kit to iOS and Android manufacturers late 2013 was the information on UHD Blu-ray digital bridge streaming.
Adam Tyner
Member
1) UHD capability is not the point of those documents; power consumption is.
2) References to UHD at all in those documents are made in passing, often just once.
3) You've attributed many things to those documents that aren't actually in them, such as how a firmware update for UHD capability was scheduled for January 2016 and then delayed. That is a complete and total fabrication.
4) The most recent efficientgaming.eu document for the Xbox One doesn't even refer to it as "Ultra High Definition Capable" any longer; just plain ol' "High Definition".
5) Beyond this, there are zero references -- absolutely none -- to Ultra HD Blu-ray in any of them.
Hmmm...last I checked, Masayasu Ito's title is EVP of Hardware Engineering and Operation for Sony Computer Entertainment, not "Salesman". "Head of Xbox Operations" doesn't sound like a salesman-type title either. The list keeps going from there. It's a pointless and failed deflection on your part. Also, Stacey Spears obviously doesn't have to be a current Microsoft employee to know what was in the Xbox One when he was part of the video/graphics team there!
You're completely off-base about HEVC as well. Neither I nor anyone I referenced said that HEVC support is impossible; in fact, the Xbox One can play HEVC videos up to a point right now. 10-bit, 100Mbps UHD HEVC video is another story.
Given how endlessly you've cited how UHD capability in the launch consoles makes perfect business sense and is a huge selling point, wouldn't salesmen be talking that up too? Why can't you find any quotes from anyone supporting what you're claiming about Ultra HD Blu-ray? You have a single quote from 2013 and these incredibly vague EU power consumption documents that barely reference UHD at all, make no mention of any specific capabilities at all, and make no references to UHD BD whatsoever. Your claims about updating the Blu-ray drive via firmware and the existence of a dedicated HEVC decoder are total guesswork and speculation.
You didn't title this thread "UHD Capable Game Consoles shipped in 2013".
Jeff decided years ago that the launch versions of these consoles were going to support what would eventually be called Ultra HD Blu-ray. No one from Microsoft has said anything along those lines since 2013, nearly three years before UHD BD finally hit the market. Sony, as far as I know, never has. A number of people from these companies have said that Ultra HD Blu-ray support is not possible in the launch consoles. Jeff says that they're all lying or ignorant. He says the reasons that have been given by Microsoft/Sony employees (the lack of a dedicated HEVC decoder, drives that cannot read Ultra HD Blu-ray media, etc.) are incorrect. He's not just arguing that these consoles can be updated to play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs; he's arguing that they will, perhaps as soon as next month, probably October, and surely no later than the holidays. It's just a secret that Microsoft and Sony are not ready to reveal yet. There is no evidence whatsoever to support what he's saying and overwhelming evidence (including many direct, unambiguous statements by folks from Microsoft and Sony) that he's completely off-base. His claims are currently based on his interpretation of a single slide from an AMD presentation, a Blu-ray whitepaper he admits to not really understanding, and EU power consumption documents that make references in passing to UHD and none whatsoever to Ultra HD Blu-ray.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The reference in passing in all of the EU documents except one calls the 2013 XB1 and 2013 and 2015 PS4 UHD Capable, A report from an independent testing Lab is this: Independent Inspector Annual Compliance Report (1 January to 31 December 2015) Page 9
Your point 3: In the EU letters UHD media power tier starts Jan 2016. I believe it means that sometime in 2016 after Jan 2016 and before Jan 2017 the consoles from all signatories have to comply. The title of the 2015 report above confirms this. An independent lab tests the console for compliance a few months after the compliance date ends. How does the UHD media support start...with a firmware update. That is not fabrication. There is a major firmware update coming with PS4 Firmware 4.0. The .0 and .5 updates are nearly always major feature rich updates matching the timing for GTK Gnome and Webkit semi annual release dates. When, before 2017 and likely with the VR update prior to Oct 13th.
No one has access to or documents describing how the ARM blocks work in the XB1 and PS4. No one in the US is allowed to work on code in the PS4 Southbridge. No one at Microsoft like Spears would know about or have access to code and description of how it works or what it supports.
There is also no information on PCs supporting UHD blu-ray, when it will be supported, by who, what drives will support it and how it works. The only way we know about the UHD blu-ray digital bridge is because Sony got hacked.
Spears making statements about a HEVC codec running on the GPU for DRM media shows he was not involved in any way with DRM media codecs. Ito saying the PS4 drive can't read 3 layers makes his comments equally suspect.