Stevey
Member
What do you think I'm laughing at?
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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
What do you think I'm laughing at?
No, it's just people's reading comprehension went out the window when they were so incredibly determined to believe that Jeff really was this all knowing messiah of tech.
Those people were legitimately thinking that Jeff was right. And didn't stop to realize that at no point was UHD bluray support confirmed, or even mentioned, and now apparently being said to not even be in the Pro model
Like there is zero, ZERO reason to leave out mentioning UHD bluray support if it was there. Especially if you're going to go all in talking about HDR.
I mean the fucking revised model from their main competitor supports it. I don't know how or why Sony is doing this.
DealWithIt
Member
Colbert
Banned
You were to fast. I wanted to restrict my statement to the fact that I do not know if the patch would include 4K/UHD output and UHD BluRay!
But I don't know any TV below 4K that supports HDR. So was the 4K included in the Sony statement?
Yeah, it came as a surprise to me, too. While I've never leaned towards the PS4 being updated via software to support UHD BDs, I was quite certain that the "PS4K"/"Neo" would include a UHD BD-capable drive.
Sources:
https://twitter.com/StuffTV/status/773609999381790720
https://twitter.com/rjcc/statuses/773613020283035648
No. HDR and 4K were the two pillars of the presentation -- mentioned separately, delineated separately. It wouldn't make any sense for House to suddenly conflate the two under the banner of HDR.
Negotiator
Member
Someone explain how a non-Polaris GPU can be patched to support HDR output.
Absolutely not. I've had to look at this thread title for how many months now? It's still 100% false.
SmartWaffles
Member
For god's sake read the thread title people, it is about UHD Blu-ray, which has been confirmed a million times not coming to either OG Xbox One nor OG PS4, this thread and jeff's ridiculous confirmation bias have ZERO to do with HDR.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The Meeting was about games not media. HDR for games was the point of House's statement.
If you have been following the thread, a drive able to play UHD disks is no more expensive than a HD Blu-ray drive. With HEVC accelerators a HEVC codec is pennies more than h.264. The Licence is $66,000 and Sony has a Embedded/Game console license, the same licence can be used for Stand Alone Players and all PS4 game consoles. Sony has a licence for a UHD Blu-ray PC app and drive, both Licenses point to Sony being serious about supporting UHD Blu-ray.
The Pro can support UHD Netflix and only needs a drive to support UHD Blu-ray
It was about both, a fact that you would be privy to yourself had you actually watched it.
None of this is relevant to our particular topic of discussion.
Edit: Oh, and you're wrong about UHD BD drives costing the same as standard BD drives. The difference is relatively small, sure, but not effectively zero.
NeOak
Member
barf
This makes the decision to not include a UHD Blu-ray drive in PS4 Pro all the more baffling. (if true - I'll wait for more concrete info)
jeff_rigby
Banned
The Media TEE is in Southbridge not the APU. HDR is a low resolution addition to Standard Dynamic Range Video that is added as the last step after the SDR Image is rendered. They have to do it this way as different displays need different levels of HDR added to match the display capability. HDMI 2.0a adds HDR negotiation between Source and display and for media, HDR is applied to the SDR image in the TEE.
GearDraxon
Member
/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7060487/sony-ps4-slim-neo-2016-1834.0.jpg)
Negotiator
Member
HDR support is built into the Polaris GPU. At least that's what AMD has told us.
Colbert
Banned
Ok, no UHD BluRay in any PS4 console and just HDR FW update. Tbh I don't see the sense for the HDR update if not a single 1080p TV that I know of support HDR to date. Maybe Sony will release such a thing?
Edit:
And I take back my admit Jeff was right!
Chû Totoro
Member
omg. Does this now continue but with PS4 Pro ?!?
People that already have ps4's and 4k tv's, people coming new to the ps4 via slim and already have a 4k tv.
Chû Totoro
Member
It's for people who have 4K / HDR TVs but it seems Sony missed the note on which it was written (add UHD Blu-Ray to PS4 Pro since it's targeted to 4K TV owners).
Yeah crazy. I really can't believe it how sony have f*cked up things so much...
- price of Slim
- name or PS4K
- no UHD Blu-ray compatibility for PS4 Pro (and PS4 too but we all know this Jeff of course... yes even with the HDR firmware update)
MicroCuts7
Member
This OP was on 4/20.
Colbert
Banned
Chû Totoro;216193047 said:
I agree:
The PS4 Slim: No optical, no UHD BluRay, no 4K output but HDR via FW Update and $299 like the Xbox One S that gives you UHD BluRay, 4K Upscale & HDR (and looks better and has still the optical output). WTF Sony!
The PS4 Pro: No UHD BluRay? Are they kidding their audience?
Theonik
Member
HDR output isn't a Polaris feature. 10-bit colour has been on HDMI since 1.3, the limitations are DRM mostly which is hard to upgrade due to how the tech must function to comply with them. For games though, console makers aren't really bound by such limitations.
Let it go dude.
Negotiator
Member
Then I guess AMD was lying when they told us that HDR support is Polaris-specific?
ss_lemonade
Member
Hasn't this thing with jeff and UHD consoles been ongoing for a few years now? I feel like I've been seeing Jeff and 4k and other rumored speculations every year
KingGreasy
Member
They're hyping HDR as part of Polaris because of DP 1.4 support. DP 1.3 and 1.4 are attached to HDR because they have the bandwidth available to move that amount of data at 4k. But even DP 1.2 is enough for HDR at 1080p as AMD has said in tandem with the R9 300 series. If you want 4k HDR 60Hz, you need DP 1.3/1.4 or HDMI 2.0a which don't appear on AMD GPU's until Polaris. This is why the current PS4's can be updated to support HDR. They can support 1080p HDR but not 4k HDR.
Theonik
Member
It's both. AMD has chosen to promote the technology with Polaris. The decision to bring it over to other architectures is entirely on them. Sony has decided to try and get it on there.
AMD doesn't have to do the same and Polaris cards were made with HDR in mind.
e: And yes, the required bandwidth for the increased colour depth is not the same for every resolution. This is reflected in HDMI specs.
And if its not happening now its happening at the next E3/GamesCom/The E3 the year after, etc.
Unknown Soldier
Member
UHD Blu-ray console appears to not be shipping in 2016 from Sony, one of the primary drivers of the format since it's origin
Negotiator
Member
Fair enough.
I remember the PS3 Slim getting a firmware audio update (something related with HDMI and 7.1)... the Slim could do it better though.
jeff_rigby
Banned
They're hyping HDR as part of Polaris because of DP 1.4 support. DP 1.3 and 1.4 are attached to HDR because they have the bandwidth available to move that amount of data at 4k. But even DP 1.2 is enough for HDR at 1080p as AMD has said in tandem with the R9 300 series. If you want 4k HDR 60Hz, you need DP 1.3/1.4 or HDMI 2.0a which don't appear on AMD GPU's until Polaris. This is why the current PS4's can be updated to support HDR. They can support 1080p HDR but not 4k HDR.
You are missing that DP 1.2 supports all the resolutions in the chart. I think the difference is HDCP 2.2 in DP 1.3 and DP 1.4 in addition to even higher than 4 K resolutions. HDMI 2.0a is only on Polaris but you can add an external adapter to DP 1.3 to fully support HDMI 2.0 while DP 1.2 using that same adaptor can't support HDCP2.2 for commercial movies.
Theonik
Member
The beauty is that when it happens. Most people will have forgotten and Jeff can pretend to always have known even though this is all an inevitability at some point (that UHD consoles will exist), which people always agreed with the disagreement is with basically everything else said.
e:
PS3 Phat had an HDMI 1.3 chip. PS3 Slim had an HDMI 1.4 chip. Both standards have the same bandwidth but 1.4 supports 3D and 1.3 doesn't.
Sony was able to exploit this to give the phat 3D support with a FW update by adding the extra format since the PS3 was over-engineered.
There were two very significant compromises on OG PS3 though that the slim exposed. The OP PS3 only supported audio out in LPCM and no bitstreaming.
Slim added bitstreaming. This was not a big deal since there is enough bandwidth on HDMI 1.3 for 8CH LPCM and 2D video. But not for 8CH video and 3D.
OG PS3 was limited to 6CH LPCM audio for 3D whereas the slim could do 3D and bitstream audio that meant that they could have 8CH of lossless audio in the same bandwidth where LPCM is uncompressed.
It also means that launch PS3 cannot support Dolby Atmos that came out later only doing core DTHD whereas the slim can output Atmos. The slim's chip also added HDMI CEC.
Why am I mentioning this? Because people need to realise that just because something appears possible on paper doesn't mean in can actually be done. It's kinda complicated.
Graphics Horse
Member
Don't have a link but I think I found a post from 2011 saying a PS4 should be named PS3.5 if it doesn't have UHD Blu ray.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Has Jeff started to move his goalposts yet?
Negotiator
Member
Yeap, that was it.
All in all, are software upgrades possible because Sony adds "programmable" HDMI controllers in their consoles?
For example, OG Xbone will never get HDR support, even though its GPU belongs in the same family (GCN 1.1). Unless it's a matter of power (TFlops) as well, since XB1 Slim is slightly overclocked to process HDR...
Colbert
Banned
This.
At this point the goalposts have been moved off the pitch, down the road, chopped into wood, a raft has been made out of them and we're currently out at a stormy sea on it fighting serpents at variable dynamic resolutions
exmachina64
Banned
No, it's for people who have bought a PS4 or Slim and have a 4K HDR TV, but won't buy a PS4 Pro.
NeOak
Member
jeff_rigby
Banned
Thankyou thankyou thankyou for bringing information with cites to the thread to discuss.
A PC UHD capable drive requires a BDA licence and has to include perpetual access to two servers maintained by the drive manufacturer. A Embedded/Game Console drive does not require a licence or server support for the drive.
How is IHS determining UHD capable drive costs? By PC UHD drive costs or by Embedded? According to Penello a UHD capable drive requires a firmware update to a HD drive and a new lens. This does not change/increase the cost of a drive.
A version 2 disk is mentioned in a 2010 Sony patent and defined in a 2010 BD-R whitepaper and support was in 2011 BD-RE V3 drives. The new Lens mentioned by Penello would have been in the 2011 BD-RE drives but not in old spec 2006 BD-ROM3 drives. BD-ROM4 drives can read the same Version 2 disks that BD-RE V3 drives can read and have already been firmware updated to support the changes required by the BDA for UHD player software.
Theonik
Member
Yes, programmable controllers add to the cost of the system but enable some of these changes to be implemented. It should be noted though that what can be done in software is very limited not only by the clock of the HDMI that is a requirement for higher bandwidth, but also how it is implemented. There is a lot of nuance in how all of these systems interact that determines what can be done.
You also need to consider business decisions as well. Not everything that can be implemented makes sense to implement from a business perspective. Older BD devices were not updated not just because they could not but because they were numerous and the cost to upgrade them would be great when their manufacturers want you to just upgrade instead so they can actually make money out of all that work.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The first point is not entirely correct with the PS4. It is actually cheaper to implement a HDMI port that can support HDMI 1.4 and HDMI 2.0a when you already have a TEE that has HDCP 2.2 for Miracast/Vidipath and move HDCP to that TEE. The Custom Panasonic HDMI chip in the PS4 just has to support sending HDCP and HDR negotiation to the ARM Trustzone TEE where both take place. The Custom HDMI chip then just has to support the other features of a HDMI chip that are common to all HDMI ports and the timing for HDMI 2 if it is supported. It has to support HDMI 2.0a negotiation but maybe not 4K @ 60 Hz. This scheme also removes limitations a stand alone HDMI 2 chip might have as more can be done with firmware updates to the Southbridge ARM chip that has 256 MB of memory...what HDMI chip has access to that much memory?
For the second point you need to define the business model. Cheap as possible blu-ray player is not going to include any extras. A Game console might if it's trying to command a place in the living room for other services that make Sony money.
Atraveller
Banned
Just why?