ResetEraVetVIP
Member
So we should all just play Gameboy forever. Why upgrade consoles? Why even create new hardware?
Is Ray-Tracing the biggest scam in gaming?
- Thread starter Nowa
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I dont mind visuals upgrade but my expectation for visual upgrade is VERY different than you guys.
Some of you guys are angry of why visuals are not CGI yet meanwhile i dont give a fuck, I'm actually happy with current game's visuals and I dont care even less with photo realistic graphics.
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iHaunter
Member
Define smoothly. How much FPS are you looking to hit?
Boss Mog
Member
Not sure why you're being so hostile but anyway you're wrong about Jensen. This is how it was announced:
No mention of multi-frame gen whatsoever, not even an asterisk.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
The best use of it on console has been Callisto protocol. Incredible technology when done right.
However, the trade off sucks. If the game uses ray traced reflections and you turn them to low or off? It's just a vasoline smear or not there anymore. There's no effort for reflections of any kind now in the industry except via Ray tracing and that will force you to have a really nice card, or super crappy reflections.
RT reflections is the only one I'm concerned about because it's the easy one to notice and spot.
However, the trade off sucks. If the game uses ray traced reflections and you turn them to low or off? It's just a vasoline smear or not there anymore. There's no effort for reflections of any kind now in the industry except via Ray tracing and that will force you to have a really nice card, or super crappy reflections.
RT reflections is the only one I'm concerned about because it's the easy one to notice and spot.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
Remedy made Alan Wake 2 with PC in mind from the start. The graphics in the console version was paired back a lot compared to PC and on top of that picture quality looked extremely soft due to low internal resolution, so it doesnt even resamble the PC version running on high end PC.If there is low light the RT looks worse and more noisy. What isn't true is that this is the devs intention especially the PS5/XSX versions which don't even really have a reflection but a poor screenspace excuse for one. So saying Remedy simply preferred this over planar is wrong. They just didn't bother to have something resembling a real mirror if it wasn't as easy as just "enabling RT" and even then getting a noisy image due to low sampling in low light.
I guess remedy could use planar reflections on consoles to make mirror reflections more convincing (mirror reflections created using SSR always look terrible when viewed directly because there is no screen space data, so instead of reflections, you see just noise), but remember planar reflections arnt cheap, so remedy would have to lower other settings in order to use them. Alan Wake 2 use dynamic GI even on consoles, so the lighting in this game was very expensive. I'm sure that if Remedy prebaked the lighting, they would be able to use planar reflections in some places (like naughty dog did in U4 or TLOU2, or TLOU1 remake).
On the PC version however planar reflections wasnt needed. Remedy has definitely chosen to diffuse the mirror reflections for artistic reasons, as there are many examples of perfectly sharp and clean reflections in the game. The vast majority of Alan Wake 2 takes place in a low-light locations and still I was able to find razor sharp and clean reflections there. For example my screenshot with "max payne" was taken in the morgue. There was barely any light there, and yet "Max Payne" reflection in the glass was razor sharp and clear.
BTW. Alan Wake 2 use the latest Ray Reconstruction (transformer model) and even in low light locations RT look very good. However, I tried playing the game without Ray Reconstruction, and the amount of noise was insane. Without Ray Reconstruction, I would probably turn the RT effects off becasue of that noise.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
RT in RE4 was extremely light (I saw zero performance difference between RT on and off on my PC). The RT resolution is very low, but the SSR reflections look even blurrier and are often missing, therefore I don't agree that the reflections in RE4R look better without RT.
Here's good comparison:.
Games where RT made a biggest difference in my opinion:
- PT remasters of really old games, for example Quake 2 RTX, Half Life PT, or minecraft RTX.
- The Witcher 3 EE
- AC Shadows.
- GTA5 EE
- Cyberpunk
- Dying Light 2
- Metro Exodus
- F1 2025
- Control
- Alan Wake 2
- Crysis Remastered 1 / 2
My list doesn't take into account the fact that many games always use HW RT (Avatar, SW Outlaws, Doom The Dark Ages, Indiana Jones the Great Circle, Forza Motorsport), or software-based RT (mainly UE5 games) that still make a huge difference. I was impressed even with the low-budget game Robocop: Rogue City. Some UE5 games, like Black Myth: Wukong, have additional RT effects that make even bigger difference. Without UE5 (software based RT) current games would offer flat lighting, especially open world games.
Most games have limited number of RT effects though, but I still noticed even limited RT because I always hated SSR (ugly mirror and water reflection that constantly fade in and out as you move the camera) and cascaded shadow maps (they draw in just in front of you).
For example RE3 remake. There are many reflective surfaces (especially in the last lab level). RT made a very noticeable difference in this game to me even though implementation wasnt the best (low RT resolution).
RT was beneficial to my gaming experience in the vast majority of games I played and I wouldnt want play games without it. 25 years ago DX8 made similar difference (shaders, bumb mapping etc.) and I was also happy playing games with new and amazing looking graphics features.
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E-Cat
Member
You clearly understand nothing about physics, Moore's law or orders of magnitude. It's gonna take decades for tracing rays to surpass rasterization for all use cases. That doesn't mean it's a scam.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
The tech demos running on a base PS5.. UE5.. W4 look gaddamned incredible, not to mention Indy on high end PC, so Path tracing is definitely the future of gaming, in certain scenarios it's basically day and night differences but for all us non 40/5090 gamers, we just gotta wait another generation
Lethal01
Member
So? You telling me strive being pretty doesnt make it a better game?
Even stylized art can have more options in their artstyle using raytracing getting closer to the devs vision
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Mozza
Member
The Gameboy's ray-tracing abilities were a tad limited.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
My argument is this whole raytracing is not "game changer" people hyping it up to be.
If one day they managed to make raytracing work without tanking the performance then great if not then it's not end of the world…..either way it not really going to effect how game plays.
Lethal01
Member
Id say for people who want photorealism its a game changer. otherwise sure.
Inviusx
Member
I was definitely on the side of "RT is useless" until more games started offering RTGI on console, now I can't go back. This is just specifically speaking to RTGI though, reflections and shadows/ao is still not worth it IMHO.
From a console perspective though, looking at PC users, I definitely feel like the technology is being pushed too much to sell GPUs. I do not envy PC gamers in this era nor do I ever want to return to carrot on a stick bullshit.
From a console perspective though, looking at PC users, I definitely feel like the technology is being pushed too much to sell GPUs. I do not envy PC gamers in this era nor do I ever want to return to carrot on a stick bullshit.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
Hawk The Slayer
Member
Never care for raytracing since I can't afford those insane overpriced cards to use them anyway, I mean I do have the money to buy it but I won't. Even if I was rich I probably still stick with 1080P 60 FPS forever.
sendit
Member
Not sure why you're being so hostile but anyway you're wrong about Jensen. This is how it was announced:
No mention of multi-frame gen whatsoever, not even an asterisk.
@3:20. Literally mentions multi frame gen.
@10:43. Literally mentions the use of AI and their Tensor cores to generate frames.
Frame gen is sprinkled throughout the entire announcement. You took one slide and act like Nvidia lied about everything.
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PurePlatinum
Member
It's definitely the biggest scam the GPU companies have ever pushed. Very little benefit for a 50% or more performance hit.
Boss Mog
Member
Neither of those moments have anything to do with him saying the 5070 was as powerful as the 4090. The first moment talks about how they used multi-frame generation for their demo and the 2nd moment talks about laptop GPUs using multi-frame generation.
hououinkyouma00
Member
Imagine spending $2000 on a single component to play the same boring unoptimized games as everybody else.5090
sendit
Member
In announcement regarding their latest AI tech (DLSS, Frame gen, multi frame gen, etc) and hardware, you assumed the slide with a headline of "RTX 5070 | 4090 Performance" = Raw Performance.
thatJohann
Member
Ray Tracing IMHO is overrated. Every time I see a game with it I ask myself "all the hype for… this?"
Bojji
Member
You can just turn it off in almost all games. In the ones you can't (IJ, Doom DA) it's super light anyway.
I don't get why people are bitching so much, RT fixes most problems raster still have and it can potentially speed up game development significantly.
peronmls
Member
Im not bitching. I have a 4090. I can run it perfectly.
Corporal.Hicks
Member
High end GPUs such as the 4090 / 5090 offer significant advantages in PT games, but framerate depends on the settings. Most 4090 / 5090 owners play games on 4K display. At 1080p however even RTX5060ti 16GB owners can play PT games with decent image quality and framerate thanks to AI (DLSS Quality + FGx2 or even FGx4). I recall few 4060ti owners on this site who played PT games at 1080p and had a reasonably good experience, so it's not like people really need a premium GPU to play PT games.
My RTX 4080 allows me to play PT games at 1440p thanks to AI (and I'm assuming the RTX5070ti should offer similar experience). With DLSS Quality + FGx2 I'm getting between 100-170fps in PT games. At 1800p framerate is still around 100fps with DLSSQ. I dont feel that I need to wait for next gen GPUs to play PT games with reasonable quality because I'm already getting that.
My screenshots from PT games 1440p DLSS Q + FGx2.
Alan Wake 2 110-170fp
Indiana Jones 110-150fps
Cyberpunk 110-140fps
Even garbage is lit naturally (realistic indirect shadows) in cyberpunk thanks to PT.
black myth wukong 100-120fps with maxed out PT, and 130-150fps with medium PT
At 4K though there's a massive drop in framerate with DLSS Quality and I need to use DLSS performance in order to get smooth 80-100fps in black myth wukong. Image quality with DLSSP still isn't bad though (it looks 4K like). I believe that the PS6 will offer similar image quality in PT games (1080p internal resolution reconstructed to 4K with FSR4 super resolution and FSR FG).
My screenshots prove that you don't need an RTX 5090 to play PT games. With the 5090 people can however play PT games will less aggressive DLSS settings at 4K and with even higher framerate (especially with MFG).
I would also like to emphasise that PT games are extremely demanding, even compared to the standard (hybrid) ray tracing technology that Nvidia began promoting in 2019.
149 fps with PT vs 269 fps with hybrid RT
PT 136 fps vs 258 fps
Given the significant performance difference between hybrid RT and PT, I can understand why some people might think it's too early to implement PT in games. Hybrid RT technology runs very well on the latest generation of GPUs though and in some games hybrid RT don't affect the framerate at all (I provided examples of this in my previous posts). That's not the case with PT, though, because it always destroys the framerate. Even the 5090 has to accept defeat, especially at native 4K resolution.
xanaum
Member
RT in RE4 was extremely light (I saw zero performance difference between RT on and off on my PC). The RT resolution is very low, but the SSR reflections look even blurrier and are often missing, therefore I don't agree that the reflections in RE4R look better without RT.
Here's good comparison:.
Games where RT made a biggest difference in my opinion:
- PT remasters of really old games, for example Quake 2 RTX, Half Life PT, or minecraft RTX.
- The Witcher 3 EE
- AC Shadows.
- GTA5 EE
- Cyberpunk
- Dying Light 2
- Metro Exodus
- F1 2025
- Control
- Alan Wake 2
- Crysis Remastered 1 / 2
My list doesn't take into account the fact that many games always use HW RT (Avatar, SW Outlaws, Doom The Dark Ages, Indiana Jones the Great Circle, Forza Motorsport), or software-based RT (mainly UE5 games) that still make a huge difference. I was impressed even with the low-budget game Robocop: Rogue City. Some UE5 games, like Black Myth: Wukong, have additional RT effects that make even bigger difference. Without UE5 (software based RT) current games would offer flat lighting, especially open world games.
Most games have limited number of RT effects though, but I still noticed even limited RT because I always hated SSR (ugly mirror and water reflection that constantly fade in and out as you move the camera) and cascaded shadow maps (they draw in just in front of you).
For example RE3 remake. There are many reflective surfaces (especially in the last lab level). RT made a very noticeable difference in this game to me even though implementation wasnt the best (low RT resolution).
RT was beneficial to my gaming experience in the vast majority of games I played and I wouldnt want play games without it. 25 years ago DX8 made similar difference (shaders, bumb mapping etc.) and I was also happy playing games with new and amazing looking graphics features.
Well, I played RE4R day one and finished it in 2 days. When I played on PS5 during that time, I didn't have a good experience with RT, not sure if it got a solid update later or if it was just way better on PC.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
Sorry my browsers build-in translator misses the poor package
Corporal.Hicks
Member
The base PS5 didn't run RT well in RE4R (there was significant performance difference between RT on and off). Only now PS5 Pro can finally run this game with RT and solid framerate. On PC however even 2080ti can run RT in this game with no performance difference between RT on and off. Benchmarks:
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kevboard
Member
I played it on Series X with RT, and thanks to the superior VRR of the Xbox it was pretty good.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Well play SNES forever.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Graphics should be better on current gen consoles…
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
It's cool, but not necessary or worth lowering resolution or frame rate for.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I honestly don't care, I care faaaaaaaar more about overall aesthetics and actual gameplay.
I much rather devs focus on interesting gameplay and more interactive world. I personally have zero issues with current level of graphics, good art direction what I value the most.
Soodanim
Member
Alex11
Member
Better NES or some text-based games. You know, nobody cares about graphics tech until their favourite games, series, company or console implement it.
I want my next Fight Night and Battlefield Bad Company (pls EA) at the best level of graphics to be honest, of course with one step better gameplay/physics/destruction etc than the previous games. For cartoony games or fantasy games i dont need high level graphics either.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Well I'm not really in to BF games but for me almost 90% of games I highly enjoyed this gen didn't particularly had the most high tech graphic but the actual game was really good.
So it's really hard for me to give a shit about graphics.