I don't get why though.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
- Start date
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I don't get why though.
Wrestlemania
Banned
"I'm one of the good poors - they won't do anything to harm me. I mean things aren't so great for me, but it's not the Tories fault - it's them bloody immigrants and EUrocrats".
Why do some "rich" people vote labour? Not everyone votes for what is (selfishly) best for themselves.
There are also plenty of reasons why they might think a conservative government is better for them and their families, the main reason I think is that they perceive labour to be incompetent though. Why that perception is so common and whether it's justified or not is where things get tricky.
Aspirational something something...
I tried quite hard to think about why working class people would want to vote Conservative this election.
There's genuinely little to be enthused about, and if the shite "worker's rights" policies being floated in the papers are all the Conservatives have, well... It'll be an election won on Brexit bollocks and opinions on Labour.
With pretty pathetic answers like "there are many complex reasons people go to food banks", it's a road that'll eventually run out. By that time they'll either have to find something new to convincingly blame or face the music.
Blame Blair. He ignored the working class and allowed them to blame the immigrants for their problems.
A Schrodingers Immigrant. Similtaneously stealing your job while also claiming all your benefits.
frankie_baby
Member
You mean the same Blair that gave us the minimum wage and working tax credits?
They took our council houses that Blair stopped building too. The cunts.
Yes. The one that stopped building council houses, created the blueprint for future Tory welfare reform and ignored the concerns of the working class regarding immigration.
Audioboxer
Member
LOL
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-party-to-replace-dead-horse-labour-pcsj8zdp5 I'd be well up for a new centrist, moderate, liberal party that respects individual liberty, pushes a pro-scientific agenda and isn't led by Tony Blair.
don't really see what this new party offers that we don't already get from the lib dems
The Liberal Democrat name is poisoned beyond recovery.
A sizeable chunk of the electorate aren't forgiving the dems for jumping in bed with the tories.
boxoctosis
Member
It won't be led by someone with illiberal views on homosexuality and 'sinning' for one.
Sadly true.
I had hoped after the referendum for a new pro-EU centrist political party comprising of the Lib Dems, non-batshit Tories and Labour people sane enough to realise that McDonnell as chancellor is a really bad idea. Doubt I will get my wish given the nature of UK politics.
Can't help but feel like this would be a disaster (at least to anyone who doesn't like the tories).
I know it's really hard get new parties starting in this voting system thats why i think many youth people are not that bothered about voting because the main parties don't present their views
It does seem so. I didn't really have an opinion either way on that, but I didn't think they'd be sunk this much still by the wider public.
I think it's completely cancelled out the boost they should have got from Brexit.
Careful, you'll unleash the dogs.
As far as I can tell, most young people aren't aching for a more centrist party though. Like, if your only aim was to get as much of the youth vote as possible, you'd probably stay about where labour are, but be a lot more pro-EU.
Who knows though, any new party isn't going to care about what things are like now, they're trying to look 5 years into the future at least and who knows how opinions will change up to then.
Yep. One of the strongest things the Tories have on their side is they are the only notable right wing party, especially now UKIP have imploded.
It wouldn't be much of an issue under a more democratic voting system, unfortunately we are stuck with FPTP and the two party system it creates and the second party isn't doing too hot.
Huw_Dawson
Member
But I just bought a new clipboard.
Frankly my expectation from a Labour split would be:
1. "The Progressive Party" is founded to great aplomb.
2. About half a microsecond later everybody realises that there is exactly zero reason to have two versions of the Lib Dems in British politics and you get the Liberal-SDP Alliance 2.0.
I can't see a genuine 'new' party forming. As long as Tony Blair is kept as far away from it as possible, any new grouping of social democrats should be welcomed into the Lib Dems - potentially with the LDs using it as an opportunity to rebrand and relaunch.
But yeah, a formal alliance that sought to build a coalition of liberals, social democrats and one nation conservatives would be the way forward in Britain.
The issue is that that party would never win without Labour's backing. And by onboarding a massive pile of Labour people you risk the all-important electoral reform which fixes the entire system so we don't need giant tent parties.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I don't think joining the Lib Dems is the answer....
Labour (of course) but arguably also the Tories are pretty big tent parties as it is, and the Lib Dems were destroyed in voter's eyes by the coalition more than Labour by a left-wing leader. Regardless of leader, people like their Labour MP's, whereas there's almost no Lib Dem MP's to like. That's the difference here.
Labour is unlikely to do well, but that doesn't mean they'll lose their ability to win >200 seats necessarily at the very least, with hopefully a more moderate leader come the next election and a better chance of winning come 2022.
Labour (of course) but arguably also the Tories are pretty big tent parties as it is, and the Lib Dems were destroyed in voter's eyes by the coalition more than Labour by a left-wing leader. Regardless of leader, people like their Labour MP's, whereas there's almost no Lib Dem MP's to like. That's the difference here.
Labour is unlikely to do well, but that doesn't mean they'll lose their ability to win >200 seats necessarily at the very least, with hopefully a more moderate leader come the next election and a better chance of winning come 2022.
I definitely think Blair is to blame for Brexit. He's also a war criminal.
The worst, most short sighted and narcissistic prime minister we've ever had.
jimbobsmells
Member
McDonnell said on the Marr show repeatedly that those earning >80k would pay 'just a little bit more'. Now the news is their plan will be to drop the 45% tax bracket down to 80k from 150k? Bonkers.
Wrestlemania
Banned
So someone earning £100k will pay an extra £1k a year? My heart bleeds, those poor people. Food bank usage will surely skyrocket now. "Bonkers".
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I think Theresa May will easily take that crown.
jimbobsmells
Member
Someone on £100k already pays over £34k in tax, with an effective tax rate of 34.22%. Compare that to someone on £20k who pays 15.6%.
As much as you want to think otherwise, these are generally people that have worked damn hard to get where they are. Years of schooling and effort. They aren't necessarily the 'well connected' Eton types or trust fund kids. This is a policy which disincentives aspiration IMO.
If you want to target the truly rich, then target wealth. Not income. People who are wealthy are not salaried. People on the Times Rich List don't go through PAYE.
Steve Jobs was paid $1 a year. I guess that means no tax for him.
That's why I think it's 'bonkers'.
boxoctosis
Member
I'd pay an extra couple of grand in tax if this was the case, give or take. I'd not starve and I'd, in reality, not notice it that much. I'd maybe have a less expensive holiday or spend less money on bikes or shit or whatever.
If we want a more equal society, we are going to have to begin to redistribute wealth more than we do currently.
Sadly, I think the UK doesn't want a more equal society. Forty years of the neoliberal dogma that the wealthy have got where they are by hard work and skill, and the poor are undeserving and feckless have put paid to that.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Right, well I'm convinced. So is the current 40% band from £45k to all the way to £150k correct? Should it be lower?
31GhostsIV
Banned
It's funny how people have a long memory with the Lib Dems (enabling the Tories) and Labour (the Brown government, Corbyn's dress sense, Blair's war) yet endure memory loss almost immediately when the Tories do typical Tory shit.
They gave us Brexit, not because of 'democracy' but to squash party in-fighting and the rise of UKIP. The pro-leave section of the party lied to us over and over again, including the £350 million fiasco. The NHS is dying before our eyes. Fucking years of austerity that they said was to close the deficit, but lol shock of shocks it was just Tory ideology and here we are years later and austerity didn't work.
If only those nurses had worked harder maybe they wouldn't need to use food banks!
I'm sorry but let's just put things into perspective. 100k is a 100k is a 100k. Granted it's peanuts compared to billionaires who can fly into space, but somebody earning 10k a year on disability benefits is going to have to work ten years to earn that much.
A person on a 100k gets to spend 30k on anything they like. That's pretty much the entire salary of the average person. 97% of the population don't have 30k to spend on what they like. And that's every year.
Please let's not compare the top three per cent to the top one percent rather than 9/10 people and call it a day. Your outlook on life is incredibly skewed toward the top 1th percentile.
jimbobsmells
Member
Yes absolutely agree. Don't read my comments above as 'I personally don't want to pay more tax', I just think that the vast, vast majority of people want to pay LESS tax and that if they really want to win votes then they should target the truly rich. Not attack the middle class. They'll just lose voters in that higher band, e.g. Corbyn's own Islington lot might suddenly start thinking about switching to someone else if their own income is affected.
jimbobsmells
Member
Don't be ridiculous. You know damn well that's not what I meant.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Laughing out loud at the idea of there being a mass of "middle class" people earning over £80k who really want to vote Labour but just can't do it because they're going to increase their taxes a little bit.
You were claiming a correlation between hard work and high pay, no?
"Years of schooling" is the easy option for some people btw. I'm lazy as sin and have a math degree from Warwick. I'm not rich but I'll never have to use a foodbank.
Labour may as well target anybody and everybody. The Tories got over 500 council seats recently so all things are pointing toward them thumping Labour in the general election.
I'm sure the papers will try to paint it as you say but £80k isn't middle class in the UK, unless you think the top 5% of earners are middle class.
They also have a more tax policies for the executive level that target earnings in shares as well as payroll, so I don't think it's even true to say they aren't going after the ultra rich for more.
I hope this comes to fruition regardless of who is in power. It's just blatant tax evasion at this point. Earn a 1 pound salary, and get 1,000,000 pounds worth of shares, that have a track record of growth means it's pretty much a tax free wealth growth scheme.
boxoctosis
Member
I didn't read that into your comments, no worries. I do think though, as I'm in the top 3% of earners, I can't really claim to be middle class anymore.
The threshold for this tax rise - £80k , is a shitload of money in almost all the country.
I'm sorry, but someone on £100k/annum is highly unlikely to have any spare time to spend £30k on anything they like. To be earning that level of salary in the private sector, you will be at director level or equivalent, which huge amounts of responsibility and accountability, typically constant travelling away from home and excessive working hours, with absolutely no point to ever 'switch off' - it's 24/7 level of pressure, stress and responsibility. You won't be seeing your kids often. People work damn hard - past present and future - to get to that kind of salary and definitely wouldn't be posting on GAF right now like you and me. No company gives away £100k/annum to someone without expecting blood in return.
Now we can moan and say it's not fair and everyone should be taxed until they end up on the same salary, but then suddenly this level of responsibility becomes fruitless and the aspiration disappears. And by doing that we ultimately end up with a fucked economy down the line as the talent wanes.
All that aside, I think people wouldn't have an issue paying more tax as long as they knew they were going to get something to show for it. But as things stand, everyone is so cynical and sceptical based on the past.
You're talking about separate things here. They can and do spend that money. Whether that's putting it in a gold plated pension scheme or otherwise.
The suggestion isn't that they don't work hard either. It's simply a matter of readdressing tax economics that heavily favour the rich. Especially considering the rich can take on that burden far more easily than a nurse for example.
I don't know what the solution is. But I'd like to probe the provision of investment for billion dollar companies. I'd rather the govenment's corporate welfare bill target startups and smaller 'google' wannabes than any corporate giant.
Now imagine being a nurse earning no where near that much with the similar or worse working hours. Or a cleaner that has to be in work at 6am and leave at 8pm.
Again, if you worked that hard to get to that point - it's entirely by choice. If life genuinely was easier by earning less, just stop working that hard then.
Yes, it takes a huge amount of effort and initiative to jump on opportunities presented to you in order to get to that point, but not everyone gets those opportunities in the first place and still have to work as hard.
I would also recommend watching these videos if you have the time:
https://youtu.be/IuqGrz-Y_Lc
https://youtu.be/_Qd3erAPI9w
jimbobsmells
Member
Oh God absolutely this 100%.
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