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[Snowman]

The song playing in the background prior to the Labour manifesto launch is "All together now" on a loop.

"All together now,
all together now,
all together now,
in no-man's land"

Sums up the state of the Labour Party right now.

I'm starting to feel like comments like this aren't really that justified - in polls labour are still getting the same percentage of the vote as they have been getting since the 2010 election. Conservatives are just in a much better state. A strong and stable state, some might say.

If any party seems like they're struggling compared to how they've done previously, it's pretty obviously the libdems. (And UKIP, but it's hard to count them, seeing as they got exactly what they wanted).

 

[D4Danger]

Labour Manifesto 2017 [PDF]

Funding breakdown [PDF]

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I'd say Labour are in no-man's land. They have a set of socialist policies that people like individually and not as a package, and a shadow cabinet that really is not very good, and also is not liked as a package.

 

[Tamanator]

I'd say Labour are in no-man's land. They have a set of socialist policies that people like individually and not as a package, and a shadow cabinet that really is not very good, and also is not liked as a package.

The problem with socialism.

 

[Audioboxer]

Labour Manifesto 2017 [PDF]

Turbo charged austerity you say?

 

[TimmmV]

stuff

This kind of negative campaigning where you only say you wont do what your opponent does really gets on my tits.

Is this something we have always done in the UK or are increasingly copying from the US? It seems to be getting more frequent but I cant tell if thats just my biases talking

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is exactly my thinking in prioritising London during my job search. My earnings over the next couple of years won't be anything special - in fact I'll undoubtedly be poorer in real terms than I would've been staying at home. But the skills I'll gain and opportunities I'll have there are likely to be much more valuable in the medium term, I reckon. Once I'm up the totem pole, I don't need to stay there.

I think the best career path for any young graduate right now is: get your first job outside of London, probably living with your parents if possible. Work at it for 18 months to 2 years, enough to develop some experience and some savings. Then, move to London and get a slightly-above-graduate position so things aren't entirely shit, stick with it until you want to start a family, then bail with your career advancement.

 

[CS_Dan]

I thought we already established the country exists in a state that nothing outside the M25 actually exists. Even then, lowest paid grad positions I'd seen up north are 25k. In London it's impossible to hire developers at less than 50k these days. And you have to offer some pretty good benefits on top.

Ubisoft Reflections (Newcastle) starts C++ programmers on about ~£19k after a Masters degree.
That's the games industry though. Pile of wank.

 

[hodgy100]

I think the best career path for any young graduate right now is: get your first job outside of London, probably living with your parents if possible. Work at it for 18 months to 2 years, enough to develop some experience and some savings. Then, move to London and get a slightly-above-graduate position so things aren't entirely shit, stick with it until you want to start a family, then bail with your career advancement.

ive had my first job for nearly 3 years but i feel like i'm going to start moving towards step 2 soon!

Ubisoft Reflections (Newcastle) starts C++ programmers on about ~£19k after a Masters degree.
That's the games industry though. Pile of wank.

thats gross! I started at more than that where I'm at now after a BSc.

 

[Snowman]

I'd say Labour are in no-man's land. They have a set of socialist policies that people like individually and not as a package, and a shadow cabinet that really is not very good, and also is not liked as a package.

They definitely have their problems, but is there any evidence for this?

 

[Audioboxer]

This kind of negative campaigning where you only say you wont do what your opponent does really gets on my tits.

Is this something we have always done in the UK or are increasingly copying from the US? It seems to be getting more frequent but I cant tell if thats just my biases talking

I mean I get a bit of it, all the parties do it. However Scottish Tories routinely make it their only game to bash the SNP and Labour and do little talking about anything else.

For your second question, it's definitely being imported in larger quantities from America. The Tories seem to want to make Britain a little-America and have for a while. The disdain for social services and healthcare only further that narrative.

From the Labour Manifesto

Looks like big Jez couldn't get the party to unify as usual.

Another big reason I want independence, to get rid of Trident. London can have it.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

They definitely have their problems, but is there any evidence for this?

Check the Yougov issue polling after the leaked manifesto. Over half of people say they like renationalising rail, but over half say that they would prefer the Tories to run the country.

 

[Spaghetti]

In lieu of actually reversing Brexit, Labour have a much more realistic and safe vision of handling the negotiations than the Conservatives at least.

Based on the manifesto, of course.

 

[Snowman]

Check the Yougov issue polling after the leaked manifesto. Over half of people say they like renationalising rail, but over half say that they would prefer the Tories to run the country.

That doesn't mean people don't like the policies as a package though, it could easily be explained by the second part of your post:

"and a shadow cabinet that really is not very good, and also is not liked as a package"

 

[PowderedToast]

I'd say Labour are in no-man's land. They have a set of socialist policies that people like individually and not as a package, and a shadow cabinet that really is not very good, and also is not liked as a package.

where does that put you guys then?

 

[kmag]

I mean I get a bit of it, all the parties do it. However Scottish Tories routinely make it their only game to bash the SNP and Labour and do little talking about anything else.

For your second question, it's definitely being imported in larger quantities from America. The Tories seem to want to make Britain a little-America and have for a while. The disdain for social services and healthcare only further that narrative.

From the Labour Manifesto

Looks like big Jez couldn't get the party to unify as usual.

Another big reason I want independence, to get rid of Trident. London can have it.

That's actually pretty much every major UK parties position (except the SNP and Greens). Basically: We're all for getting rid of nukes if everybody is getting rid of them, so we'll work towards that but meanwhile we'll continue to park the national penis extension North of the Clyde.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Turbo charged austerity you say?

More like

When you're overusing that turbo nobody is gonna want to come over!

 

[Theonik]

not in my industry i think id be lucky to get 35k if I were to go for a job in London

Eh, if you're in software you can switch industries if need be.
Games tend to be almost universally awful for wages for example.

I agree with you on your other points, but that is not an accurate portrayal of general salaries in software jobs. I've seen some "bottom of the pile" ones advertised as low as £16k a year.

Bit of an advice that should probably go for anyone, especially with skills as sought after as software engineers. You don't have to accept these kinds of offers. It is also not rare that no-one actually takes them up on that and they have to re-list the position with a higher wage, or they are actually willing to pay much more than advertised. Supply of good software jobs is such that you get to negotiate pretty well on advertised rates.

Re: Grad programs. Those tend to be pretty exploitative in nature to begin with but salary progression tends to be pretty good after that. I'd recommend people to go for a sandwich course over doing a masters and trying to get a junior position after university to be honest. When I was in university I was offered a 1 year internship for about 22.5k. Was in Cambridge so it was actually not a lot of money but there you go.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

where does that put you guys then?

A few more seats in the bank and an entire centre of British politics to fill in the coming five years.

But hey, we're talking about Labour here - this is their big day - not my party's big day which is tomorrow/Thursday.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's actually pretty much every major UK parties position (except the SNP and Greens). Basically: We're all for getting rid of nukes if everybody is getting rid of them, so we'll work towards that but meanwhile we'll continue to park the national penis extension North of the Clyde.

Labour usually have a little more decency than the Tories. I mean they were attacking Corbyn for rightfully wanting to say he would not fire it, but mincing his words a little because the only right answer is "omgzzz sabre rattling, we Britain, if you attack us we'll wipe you off the planet too!".

It's a colossal waste of money we largely give to America. You know May would be wanting to stay in Trump's pockets. The only chance of getting rid of it seems to be voting for independence. Seems like Labour would just roll out the status quo as well instead of actually "leading" the way and disarming to show morals and good faith to the world.

Sadly a LOT of the general public seem to back us having nuclear weapons. A surprising amount if you ask me. I really don't know if it's a large collection of ignorance/manufactured fear (or just general dick waving)? The irony is traditional defences, which are needed, have been facing cuts.

More like

When you're overusing that turbo nobody is gonna want to come over!

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Listened to an interview with John McDonnell this morning. Nick Robinson asked him what the amount of the UK deficit was and he just repeated "we need the investment, we need the investment, we....need....the....investment...." as an aide was clearly furiously googling the answer in the background

Pretty funny, but these "gotcha" moments are pretty lame tbh. It seems like every interviewer wants their Diane Abbott moment, but you're never goign to top that!

 

[Audioboxer]

Listened to an interview with John McDonnell this morning. Nick Robinson asked him what the amount of the UK deficit was and he just repeated "we need the investment, we need the investment, we....need....the....investment...." as an aide was clearly furiously googling the answer in the background

Pretty funny, but these "gotcha" moments are pretty lame tbh. It seems like every interviewer wants their Diane Abbott moment, but you're never goign to top that!

America will always have us beaten ~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-37312015/us-presidential-candidate-what-is-aleppo

 

[Theonik]

Listened to an interview with John McDonnell this morning. Nick Robinson asked him what the amount of the UK deficit was and he just repeated "we need the investment, we need the investment, we....need....the....investment...." as an aide was clearly furiously googling the answer in the background

Pretty funny, but these "gotcha" moments are pretty lame tbh. It seems like every interviewer wants their Diane Abbott moment, but you're never goign to top that!

I find those questions to not be very informative in the first place. It is as you say, designed to get "gotcha" moments, hell, I'd argue the majority of MPs wouldn't be able to answer on the spot and probably wouldn't have to. That's part of what the civil service is for.

E:

Tbh it just baffles me that politicians on all sides go onto programs like Today, or the Sunday politics shows, and obviously haven't even made any effort to at least familiarise themselves with the context of the topic they're there to discuss. I'm not expecting politicians to be walking factsheets, but it's an easy trap for an interviewer to set, and an easy one to avoid.

Preparing for this kind of thing is actually harder than you think unless they are allowed to pre-screen what the questions will be but often they don't and interviewers will still throw the odd curveball. They can't avoid going to them altogether despite that.

 

[Little Old Man]

Listened to an interview with John McDonnell this morning. Nick Robinson asked him what the amount of the UK deficit was and he just repeated "we need the investment, we need the investment, we....need....the....investment...." as an aide was clearly furiously googling the answer in the background

Pretty funny, but these "gotcha" moments are pretty lame tbh. It seems like every interviewer wants their Diane Abbott moment, but you're never goign to top that!

Tbh it just baffles me that politicians on all sides go onto programs like Today, or the Sunday politics shows, and obviously haven't even made any effort to at least familiarise themselves with the context of the topic they're there to discuss. I'm not expecting politicians to be walking factsheets, but it's an easy trap for an interviewer to set, and an easy one to avoid.

 

[Spuck-uk]

I thought we already established the country exists in a state that nothing outside the M25 actually exists. Even then, lowest paid grad positions I'd seen up north are 25k. In London it's impossible to hire developers at less than 50k these days. And you have to offer some pretty good benefits on top.

There are junior developers I can see from my desk who are on 21k. Admittedly I've been out of London for 3 years now, but there were plenty of devs working on under 50k, especially in the (it shouldn't really count because fuck that industry) computer games industry.

 

[Spuck-uk]

The thing with London isn't even the higher wages per se - I agree that the lower cost of living elsewhere can more than make up for that. It's the advancement opportunity. If you want a better salary, the best way to do it is move on or move up. That requires either a new position to be created, or an existing one to be vacated. Vacations happen at approximately the same rate everywhere, but the creation of new positions is strongly tied to regional growth. Most of the UK has seen little to no growth since 2008(!!), and the figures are held up by London which has seen relatively good growth. If you stay in London for 15 years, you advance up the pay-scale faster, which means you can then get a better salary outside of London if you choose to leave because you've had more experience and more senior positions, compared to staying outside London and perhaps having initially a better quality of life but struggling to get up the ladder because companies aren't growing and you don't get offered that senior position.

Not really true IME, outside of cities perhaps, but the northwest has tonnes of opportunity for advancement, you just have to be willing to, like most places, hop companies to get where you want.

What I will say is there are some shockingly ass-backward companies up here compared to the big smoke. Requiring devs to wear a fucking shirt and ties and you aren't paying finance wages? Get to fuck.

 

[Spuck-uk]

yeah thats what ive heard from friends too :/



yeah i pretty much have to move to london to advance my career. I'm pretty lucky in that I can actually do that.

I kinda did that, spent far too long in London as a result. In retrospect I could have done the same just moving to Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle.

 

[Little Old Man]

I find those questions to not be very informative in the first place. It is as you say, designed to get "gotcha" moments, hell, I'd argue the majority of MPs wouldn't be able to answer on the spot and probably wouldn't have to. That's part of what the civil service is for.

E:

Preparing for this kind of thing is actually harder than you think unless they are allowed to pre-screen what the questions will be but often they don't and interviewers will still throw the odd curveball. They can't avoid going to them altogether despite that.

Yeah but look at the example above. The Shadow Chancellor of all people, talking about manifesto commitments, which will require borrowing to fund (even if they file them under capital investment). It's immediately apparent the questions that follow will be along the lines of:

"How much will this cost to do?"
"Where will the money come from?"
"Do you know what the current deficit is, and what will it be after?"

It's not like he's the Shadow Home Scretary, or the Shadow Defence Minister. He's the Shadow Chancellor, and Labour have a competence deficit to make up in the eyes of the public. Besides he has a whole team to actually do this basic research, he just needs to remember a few numbers.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Eh, if you're in software you can switch industries if need be.
Games tend to be almost universally awful for wages for example.


Bit of an advice that should probably go for anyone, especially with skills as sought after as software engineers. You don't have to accept these kinds of offers. It is also not rare that no-one actually takes them up on that and they have to re-list the position with a higher wage, or they are actually willing to pay much more than advertised. Supply of good software jobs is such that you get to negotiate pretty well on advertised rates.

Re: Grad programs. Those tend to be pretty exploitative in nature to begin with but salary progression tends to be pretty good after that. I'd recommend people to go for a sandwich course over doing a masters and trying to get a junior position after university to be honest. When I was in university I was offered a 1 year internship for about 22.5k. Was in Cambridge so it was actually not a lot of money but there you go.

This is all really good advice. The realisation that you have bargaining power because of your experience and skills is glorious. You can only imagine the smile I had to hide in the interview for a previous job when they admitted they'd not even interviewed anyone for the position in a year of looking....

I'd also add don't work in the games industry at all because it's absurdly rough, and will teach you terrible practices and tolerance for bad working hours, pay and management.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Not really true IME, outside of cities perhaps, but the northwest has tonnes of opportunity for advancement, you just have to be willing to, like most places, hop companies to get where you want.

What I will say is there are some shockingly ass-backward companies up here compared to the big smoke. Requiring devs to wear a fucking shirt and ties and you aren't paying finance wages? Get to fuck.

This is obviously industry-dependent, but as an average, no, there simply aren't the same advancement opportunities in the north. Manchester's growth rate has been consistently below London's, as has Liverpool's. This isn't to say there are no opportunities - there are definitely some - but there are relatively less, and accordingly on average London offers more career advancement. I don't want this to be the case, but it's true.

 

[blazinglord]

Labour Manifesto 2017 [PDF]

Funding breakdown [PDF]

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017

So Labour's manifesto has been *officially* released. Some very interesting ideas - particularly with the possibility of scrapping council tax. It is obviously very left-wing, and there are expensive giveaways that I do not support (bringing back EMAs, abolishing tuition fees, restoring HB for under 21). But on the whole, some of the policies are appealing.

Nice bit about private renters and three year tenancies, but disappointed that nothing is mentioned about leaseholds. Probably going to be impossible soon to buy a freehold property if the current situation continues.

 

[hodgy100]

Re: Grad programs. Those tend to be pretty exploitative in nature to begin with but salary progression tends to be pretty good after that. I'd recommend people to go for a sandwich course over doing a masters and trying to get a junior position after university to be honest. When I was in university I was offered a 1 year internship for about 22.5k. Was in Cambridge so it was actually not a lot of money but there you go.

yes i completely agree with this. a year in industry made it much easier to secure that first job!

 

[Theonik]

There are junior developers I can see from my desk who are on 21k. Admittedly I've been out of London for 3 years now, but there were plenty of devs working on under 50k, especially in the (it shouldn't really count because fuck that industry) computer games industry.

For London, even graduate schemes can start on 30-35k these days. Friend of a friend started on £50k on a grad scheme last year actually. (caveat is he has to work for Amazon so it's all part of the trade-off)

Admittedly, you need to be up to scratch to be able to demand any kind of salary in this industry but there is a massive staff shortage and salaries are very much negotiable as a result. Lowest paid developer we got here is earning £45k. Though growth prospects are somewhat limited in this industry after that. You'd also be right to say that the UK is the worst in northern Europe for tech salaries in general tbh.

 

[travisbickle]

So Labour's manifesto has been *officially* released. Some very interesting ideas - particularly with the possibility of scrapping council tax. It is obviously very left-wing, and there are expensive giveaways that I do not support (bringing back EMAs, abolishing tuition fees, restoring HB for under 21). But on the whole, some of the policies are appealing.

Hating young people, very British.

 

[Kysen]

Just saw on the BBC that the best that labour has to offer is more tax increases, lol. I wasn't going to bother voting but I guess I might throw a vote at the Tories.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Ubisoft Reflections (Newcastle) starts C++ programmers on about ~£19k after a Masters degree.
That's the games industry though. Pile of wank.

I started in the games industry on 12k a year as a tester.

In London.

That was rough.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Just saw on the BBC that the best that labour has to offer is more tax increases, lol. I wasn't going to bother voting but I guess I might throw a vote at the Tories.

You earn over £80,000 a year? Or own a business making more than £300,000 in profits annually?

 

[Spuck-uk]

They definitely have their problems, but is there any evidence for this?

Nope, although it's provable they have an image problem, people like the policies far less if they're attributed to Labour.

People are idiots.

 

[Kysen]

You earn over £80,000 a year? Or own a business making more than £300,000 in profits annually?

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

 

[Spuck-uk]

You earn over £80,000 a year? Or own a business making more than £300,000 in profits annually?

Hey to be fair now, maybe he just loves austerity, fox hunting or 'sending them all back where they came from'.

 

[pulsemyne]

Just saw on the BBC that the best that labour has to offer is more tax increases, lol. I wasn't going to bother voting but I guess I might throw a vote at the Tories.

Yeah but only for people earning above 80 grand a year. Also if you think the tories aren't going to increase taxes...well you're living in fantasy land.

 

[Spuck-uk]

For London, even graduate schemes can start on 30-35k these days. Friend of a friend started on £50k on a grad scheme last year actually. (caveat is he has to work for Amazon so it's all part of the trade-off)

Admittedly, you need to be up to scratch to be able to demand any kind of salary in this industry but there is a massive staff shortage and salaries are very much negotiable as a result. Lowest paid developer we got here is earning £45k. Though growth prospects are somewhat limited in this industry after that. You'd also be right to say that the UK is the worst in northern Europe for tech salaries in general tbh.

I checked the industry polls and we're compensated decently here. France, Spain, Portugal all pay less iirc. Only the nordic countries pay more on average, and then it's not by much.

Now compared with the US..

 

[CS_Dan]

I started in the games industry on 12k a year as a tester.

In London.

That was rough.

Ouch. Mind you, I've not heard anyone say good things about testing.
And a damn good C++ programmer (even a recent graduate) should really be looking towards 30-40k, not 20. Testing doesn't take much in terms of specialist skills, even if it is a miserable slog.
Edit: sorry for the derail

 

[pulsemyne]

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

So taxing the rich slightly more to help the poor isn't valid? You must hate the NHS then as that is what it literally is funded by. People pay taxes to help everyone.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

Ah, 'fuck you got mine'. To be fair, that is a core Tory principle.

 

[blazinglord]

Hating young people, very British.

Well I remember when EMA was in place and I just think money can be better spent than on chavs who turn up in the morning to register before bunking the rest of their lessons. Fun fact btw - Lib Dems opposed EMA when it was in place. Don't know their policy on it now.

As for HB for under 21 - there are support for people under 21 who are homeless. But otherwise, if you don't earn enough to rent or aren't at uni, then live with your parents until you're 21 like the rest of the world does.

 

[*Splinter]

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

What about taking from Peter to build the roads that he relies on every day?

Also what kind of policies would you like to see in a manifesto?

 

[Wrestlemania]

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

What exactly were you expecting from a Labour manifesto that wasn't using increased taxes to spending more?

 

[pulsemyne]

Ouch. Mind you, I've not heard anyone say good things about testing.
And a damn good C++ programmer (even a recent graduate) should really be looking towards 30-40k, not 20. Testing doesn't take much in terms of specialist skills, even if it is a miserable slog.

Testing is a very good way of getting your foot in the door. Friend of mine start testing at Sony liverpool and is now a lead designer at Ubisoft in canada.

 

[Moosichu]

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

Taxes aren't a zero sum game, and the amount of money that goes to individuals on job seekers allowance is only 5.8% of the budget. Don't forget, people in such dire situations don't have many savings and will spend most of their income straight away, circulating that money back into the economy.

Taxes pay for things like policing, the NHS, roads, fire brigades, community centres, and more - all of which benefit you and ultimately save you money as things done collectively can be far cheaper than if everyone had to roll their own.