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[TimmmV]

Bit of an advice that should probably go for anyone, especially with skills as sought after as software engineers. You don't have to accept these kinds of offers. It is also not rare that no-one actually takes them up on that and they have to re-list the position with a higher wage, or they are actually willing to pay much more than advertised. Supply of good software jobs is such that you get to negotiate pretty well on advertised rates.

Re: Grad programs. Those tend to be pretty exploitative in nature to begin with but salary progression tends to be pretty good after that. I'd recommend people to go for a sandwich course over doing a masters and trying to get a junior position after university to be honest. When I was in university I was offered a 1 year internship for about 22.5k. Was in Cambridge so it was actually not a lot of money but there you go.

Admittedly, that £16k one sticks in the memory because it was so horrendously low. I remember thinking at the time "I hope you don't actually get anyone for a salary that low" when it came up

But yeah, the low £20ks seems pretty normal for starting off in development in Manchester at least. And tbh, while its hardly loads, its probably relatively good compared to most other jobs immediately after uni

Not really true IME, outside of cities perhaps, but the northwest has tonnes of opportunity for advancement, you just have to be willing to, like most places, hop companies to get where you want.

What I will say is there are some shockingly ass-backward companies up here compared to the big smoke. Requiring devs to wear a fucking shirt and ties and you aren't paying finance wages? Get to fuck.

My first dev job i naively accepted a role that was like this. Hated every second of it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

And why's that?

 

[Empty]

ifs analysis of labour manifesto tax changes

i respect people who work very hard with huge pressure, competition and responsibilities and have put in years of intense training in order to earn these top salaries, but i also feel like these aren't unfair additional contributions given the state of our public services, the number of people in work and also in poverty, the crisis in social care, lack of social housing, limited access to support for those with disabilities.

 

[Kysen]

So taxing the rich slightly more to help the poor isn't valid? You must hate the NHS then as that is what it literally is funded by. People pay taxes to help everyone.

Nah, the NHS saved both my parents lives.

Ah, 'fuck you got mine'. To be fair, that is a core Tory principle.

The alternative being 'fuck em' those taxes don't affect me, raise them as much as you want.

What exactly were you expecting from a Labour manifesto that wasn't using increased taxes to spending more?

I was expecting a credible plan but it looks to be more of the same. Tax and spend.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Well I remember when EMA was in place and I just think money can be better spent than on chavs who turn up in the morning to register before bunking the rest of their lessons. Fun fact btw - Lib Dems opposed EMA when it was in place. Don't know their policy on it now.

As for HB for under 21 - there are support for people under 21 who are homeless. But otherwise, if you don't earn enough to rent or aren't at uni, then live with your parents until you're 21 like the rest of the world does.

I hate this argument. Who cares if some people abuse it, what about the people who it has genuinely helped?

Also, what if your parents can't afford to keep housing you?

 

[Blackthorn]

Well I remember when EMA was in place and I just think money can be better spent than on chavs who turn up in the morning to register before bunking the rest of their lessons. Fun fact btw - Lib Dems opposed EMA when it was in place. Don't know their policy on it now.

I remember when EMA was in place and I was living in poverty and that £30 a week meant I could actually enjoy my life a little on weekends, save for things and have fun with my girlfriend.

But fuck the chavs, sure.

 

[TimmmV]

Nah, the NHS saved both my parents lives.

Why should Peter be paying Paul to pay for your parents lives to be saved?

 

[Wrestlemania]

I was expecting a credible plan but it looks to be more of the same. Tax and spend.

So what isn't credible about it?
If you want to vote Tory because you support the Tories and their policies, you can just say that by the way. Expecting a Tory manifesto from Labour is pretty strange.

 

[Audioboxer]

Scotlands ned population is still pretty alive and kicking and we manage okay with free education ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Again, the age-old scare mongering tactic of finding a minority of abuse, then extrapolate it to this whole service/support mechanism needs to be torn down. All the people it benefits and the net gain from society functioning well? Sorry, dem bad apples.

 

[jelly]

I would be okay with more tax for some people but it's a drop in the ocean to corporate tax evasion, wasteful incompetent management of public services by politicians and managers. We need to sort both for maximum impact. The NHS will just get taken to the cleaners with more funds if they don't rethink how it actually works, functions, sources etc. Stick a billion into HMRC to sort that spaghetti out and rake in billions more revenue.

 

[Kysen]

So what isn't credible about it?

It doesn't work as evidenced by the early 2000s.

 

[Moosichu]

Nah, the NHS saved both my parents lives.


The alternative being 'fuck em' those taxes don't affect me, raise them as much as you want.


I was expecting a credible plan but it looks to be more of the same. Tax and spend.

Unfortunately the NHS is in a desperate situation, brexit and the fact that the support services no longer exist to take care of people once treated - meaning they stay in hospital - is resulting in an unsustainable lack of funding for the services the NHS should provide. Doctors and Nursers are leaving the system en masse, meaning that people are already dying that are easily savable.

It doesn't work as evidenced by the early 2000s.

Wasn't the country in a much better position in the early 2000s? What didn't work so well then?

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

It doesn't work as evidenced by the early 2000s.

What metric are you using?

 

[*Splinter]

It doesn't work as evidenced by the early 2000s.

Did you mean late 2000s?

And again, what kind of policies would you like to see?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Labour Manifesto 2017 [PDF]

Funding breakdown [PDF]

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017

128 pages? Can anyone give a summary?

 

[Spuck-uk]

Testing is a very good way of getting your foot in the door. Friend of mine start testing at Sony liverpool and is now a lead designer at Ubisoft in canada.

It used to be, not so much now. I have a few friends that make the jump from testing to something else*, but the vast, vast majority go nowhere and burn out. I know a LOT of ex-Sony Liverpool people.

Personally I taught myself to code, and carved out a niche writing test automation. Pays ~3 times what games testing does, better hours by far.

*One of my mates is lead tester at Ubisoft in Canada as well, small world!

 

[blazinglord]

I hate this argument. Who cares if some people abuse it, what about the people who it has genuinely helped?

Also, what if your parents can't afford to keep housing you?

I remember when EMA was in place and I was living in poverty and that £30 a week meant I could actually enjoy my life a little on weekends, save for things and have fun with my girlfriend.

But fuck the chavs, sure.

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

 

[Moosichu]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

But in the modern, developed world, where the resources exist to enable this, why shouldn't this be the case? Furthermore, if people aren't given some small luxuries, how are they ever going to rise up the ladder of social mobility? What if you have children, should they be punished by you not being allowed to see them on weekends now? What is the cost of giving everyone a bit more? Do you need an infinite welfare state?

More work does not automatically better society, we have to evaluate why we work. Is it a means to an end? Is it the end itself? What about when automation really starts to take off?

These issues are complex, and the consequences of giving people on benefits some luxuries can have further good beyond just them. It can stop people from resorting to crime to get the lifestyle they want - which can ultimately save money.

I quite like the idea of Labour's "NHS for education", that has the potential to be transformative and lead to massive gains in productivity. But we will have to see.

 

[TimmmV]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

No system is going to be perfect though. Any welfare system is ultimately going to go unfairly go to people you see as undeserving. Ultimately you have to think about whether the cost of giving to the "undeserving" is worth the benefit the "deserving" get from it - not just that people who aren't "in need" benefit from it so therefore it is waste.

Also, just because something has been previously done for a long time, doesn't therefore mean that it should continue to. That isnt a good reason to justify teenagers getting weekend jobs while in education

 

[Audioboxer]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

Productive, happy and optimistic people tend to produce far better results for a socially connected country. We're often talking the very bottom of the barrel social outings/abilities to gain one or two things of pleasure a month. Why is there so much disdain the second any human being isn't saying my life consists of "back breaking work 24/7 and severe depression/no fun allowed"?

Not to mention most people when they spend what little cash they have do so by putting it back into the economy, either into business, or paying for services that then fund other people's wages/tax system. The lowest paid and poorest aren't sitting on masses of £££ locked away in personal bank accounts.

 

[Lego Boss]

Wow Laura, the level of insight is coruscating:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39934039

 

[Morat]

Wow Laura, the level of insight is coruscating:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39934039

That really is pretty barefaced. So she's recycling Tory talking points now?

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

Kids should be able to have fun, christ. 6th form especially, that's the last time kids can actually be kids without having to deal with adult responsibility, is it so bad that they don't get funnelled into working as soon as possible?

And on the bolded, remind me where money initially comes from? Not to mention that it's not like the buck stops at whoever gets EMA, they go on and spend it which gets taxed etc. etc. The economy is a cycle, movement is good.

 

[Audioboxer]

Wow Laura, the level of insight is coruscating:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39934039

Laura Kuenssberg's hot takes are often hot garbage.

 

[Snowman]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

Minimum wage is like £4 for people under 18, it'd take a bit more than a 3 hour job on a saturday morning to even get the £30 that EMA offers. Kids with rich parents don't have to choose between education and fun, why should kids with poorer parents? Not getting taxed on your unnecessarily large paycheck isn't a human right either.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

I remember when EMA was in place and I was living in poverty and that £30 a week meant I could actually enjoy my life a little on weekends, save for things and have fun with my girlfriend.

But fuck the chavs, sure.

You'll never win this fight because people have already made their minds up about this. Ignoring the fact that EMA helped a lot of kids from poor backgrounds actually afford further education and socialise.

These things are important when you're young and I don't necessarily want poor kids to just have to sit indoors and be fucking miserable because then they probably wont be able to achieve as well in school as the kids who can rest, socialise and enjoy life but all people tend to hear is 'muh money!' and ignore the larger points about whats conducive to a healthy society.

Minimum wage is like £4 for people under 18, it'd take a bit more than a 3 hour job on a saturday morning to even get the £30 that EMA offers. Kids with rich parents don't have to choose between education and fun, why should kids with poorer parents? Not getting taxed on your unnecessarily large paycheck isn't a human right either.

Very good point, I often forget how abysmal the minimum wage is for younger people.

 

[Rodelero]

Just saw on the BBC that the best that labour has to offer is more tax increases, lol. I wasn't going to bother voting but I guess I might throw a vote at the Tories.

I think the world would be a better place if you didn't vote, to be honest.

Close but that doesn't matter, taking from paul to pay peter makes no sense and isn't a valid platform in my opinion.

It's actually disturbing that anyone could actually type this out and click Submit. Taking from Paul to pay Peter is the basis of everything good in this society. In many areas our country is in a dreadful state and getting worse fast. More does need to be spent.

Nah, the NHS saved both my parents lives.

I hope the NHS is still around to save your life if/when you have kids.

The alternative being 'fuck em' those taxes don't affect me, raise them as much as you want.

Well, no, the alternative is thinking about who can afford to pay more. A small increase on people making far, far, far more than average doesn't exactly seem unreasonable. As someone that may very well be affected by the change (I made over that in the last financial year), I am willing to pay more. Yes, I pay a lot of tax already, but, ultimately, this country needs people like me to pay tax. I am proud to pay tax. It is how I give back to the society that I live in. The tax I pay goes to helping out the poor and disabled, the tax I pay goes to paying for kids to be educated, the tax I pay goes towards saving lives in the NHS, the tax I pay goes towards keeping us safe both from criminals and threats abroad, etc. etc. etc. I'm not delusional, I'm perfectly aware that some of the tax I pay is wasted, and that some goes towards things I'd rather it wouldn't, but the majority of what I pay goes towards making this a better society.

There is a point at which tax would indeed be stiflingly high. 45% above £80,000? It's not even close.

I was expecting a credible plan but it looks to be more of the same. Tax and spend.

Did you swallow the Daily Mail?

 

[Moosichu]

Wow Laura, the level of insight is coruscating:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39934039

Jeremy Corbyn is taking the Labour Party in this election to a very different place - away from the recent consensus that the UK should be moving to lower borrowing, and lower taxation.

What consensus?

 

[Halph n Halph]

I remember when EMA was in place and I was living in poverty and that £30 a week meant I could actually enjoy my life a little on weekends, save for things and have fun with my girlfriend.

But fuck the chavs, sure.

Nurses are having to use food banks and you want tax payers money so you can have fun with your girlfriend ?
The young people I know work in retail or fast food outlets for fun money.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Nurses are having to use food banks and you want tax payers money so you can have fun with your girlfriend ?
The young people I know work in retail or fast food outlets for fun money.

Lmao you really fucking think paying nurses enough and EMA are mutually exclusive?

 

[Blackthorn]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

My girlfriend got £20 a week from her parents and got £10 EMA. My father (single parent) didn't have a penny to spare, so that little bit of support went a long way. I also did house cleaning on weekends for £20, to give some perspective on the bountiful work opportunities available to a 16 year old.

And before you tell me the bootstraps story, that's exactly what I fucking did. First male in my family to go to uni, despite having to retake my GCSEs, despite living in poverty, and despite living in one of the worst estates in London. I now live in a nice, safe neighbourhood and live a better life then I could ever have imagined, living with the same girlfriend I used to treat with that £30 a week.

Nurses are having to use food banks and you want tax payers money so you can have fun with your girlfriend ?
The young people I know work in retail or fast food outlets for fun money.

The young people where I lived robbed people and sold drugs to make money. Inspiring entrepreneurs if I've ever seen them.

 

[Spuck-uk]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Pretty good basis.

 

[Moosichu]

Nurses are having to use food banks and you want tax payers money so you can have fun with your girlfriend ?
The young people I know work in retail or fast food outlets for fun money.

 

[Maledict]

It doesn't work as evidenced by the early 2000s.

You do understand that isn't what happened in the early 2000s? Where are you getting that opinion from? Labour did not preside over massive tax rises in the early 2000s, and they only started significant spending towards the end of the decade when the financial crisis hit.

Sorry to ask but were you in work and paying taxes at that time? Because your recollection is objectively not true.

 

[Audioboxer]

Nurses are having to use food banks and you want tax payers money so you can have fun with your girlfriend ?
The young people I know work in retail or fast food outlets for fun money.

Because one person having a tiny slice of enjoyment in their life is the cause of Nurses and food banks? This sort of thinking is what has masses of the general public running around grasping at straws to blame immigrants/poor people/the disabled or anyone as I said above not appearing as if all they live for is indentured servitude.

You do not lift a society up by trying to spread around the shit so suffering is seen in more places. You attempt to deal with the shit where it exists.

The people who abused it were probably 0.01% of the users. That is almost universally the case in everything to do with benefits. Fraud/disingenuous use is tiny.

Pretty much, but the best mind control a government has ever inflicted on the populations is having them fight each other like rabid dogs so the poorest and most vulnerable are kept rooted at the bottom of the food chain whilst those above desperately try to hold onto their "status". Don't you know only middle class or upper class are allowed to have fun? Those at the bottom just need to work harder and stay away from the pleasantries us further up the food chain enjoy.

 

[SomTervo]

Well I remember when EMA was in place and I just think money can be better spent than on chavs who turn up in the morning to register before bunking the rest of their lessons. Fun fact btw - Lib Dems opposed EMA when it was in place. Don't know their policy on it now.

As for HB for under 21 - there are support for people under 21 who are homeless. But otherwise, if you don't earn enough to rent or aren't at uni, then live with your parents until you're 21 like the rest of the world does.

The people who abused it were probably 0.01% of the users. That is almost universally the case in everything to do with benefits. Fraud/disingenuous use is tiny.

 

[Halph n Halph]

Not really an appropriate gif tbh. With a limited budget there has to be priorities.
I'm all for higher taxes to fund those truly in need. I actually agree with the Lib Dems 1p on income tax for everyone and more for the high earners .

 

[w1ck3dn1nj4]

Labour Manifesto 2017 [PDF]

Funding breakdown [PDF]

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017

Where are the numbers for rail, utilities and postal services?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

I just think the money (which let us not forget, is money that has to come from somewhere - i.e. people's pay checks) should and could be better spent.

People will pile on, but I agree.

We seriously have to look at the welfare state and tell old people there's no more money left. They should have taken more care to save while they could and it's now unfair to take money away from future potential to provide them with a pension.

I fully support you blazinglord. Fuck the old fuckers who didn't work hard enough or save enough and now expect the state to look after them. Filthy scroungers with their hands out.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Where are the numbers for rail, utilities and postal services?

They fall within the "National Transformational Fund".

 

[Maledict]

To be fair, I don't think anyone says the Welfare state should be infinite. I'm not sure anyone has advanced that argument, nor do I think it a particular valid one. The question is more about whether what we currently spend is enough / too much / too little, about the levels of fraud that take place, about the prioritises within welfare spending (old people!), and about how our resources go into chasing down benefits frauds but not people who steal billions from tax evasion.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Productive, happy and optimistic people tend to produce far better results for a socially connected country. We're often talking the very bottom of the barrel social outings/abilities to gain one or two things of pleasure a month. Why is there so much disdain the second any human being isn't saying my life consists of "back breaking work 24/7 and severe depression/no fun allowed"?

Not to mention most people when they spend what little cash they have do so by putting it back into the economy, either into business, or paying for services that then fund other people's wages/tax system. The lowest paid and poorest aren't sitting on masses of £££ locked away in personal bank accounts.

Work builds character

 

[Screaming Meat]

I mean it's just my own opinion (one man, one vote and all), but I don't think the welfare state should be infinite. It should provide for those most in need.

It's good that you were able to have fun in the weekend etc, but it isn't a human right. What was stopping you from getting a part-time job for 3 hours on a Saturday morning like kids have been doing since time immemorial?

As I recall (and it may have changed since my mum was on it), getting those hypothetical hours would eat into how much welfare paid out, and it wouldn't be a 1-to-1 exchange either.

Like I said, it may have changed in the last 20 years.

 

[TimmmV]

Work builds character

Poe's law going strong here

 

[War Peaceman]

Work builds character

So does literally doing anything

 

[Halph n Halph]

People will pile on, but I agree.

We seriously have to look at the welfare state and tell old people there's no more money left. They should have taken more care to save while they could and it's now unfair to take money away from future potential to provide them with a pension.

I fully support you blazinglord. Fuck the old fuckers who didn't work hard enough or save enough and now expect the state to look after them. Filthy scroungers with their hands out.

I presume you will agree that we should refund them every penny that they paid in during the 50 years they worked.
Letting old folks freeze to death in winter is a small price to pay so that future potential can enjoy life that little bit more .

 

[Spuck-uk]

Work builds character

The asset owning classes must really lack character.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I've always wondered what the argument about welfare is in the UK.

If welfare pays more than a job then of course some people will take advantage. However if this is happening then perhaps this says more about the wage gap and jobs being offered.

If someone can make more on welfare, the answer is not to cut welfare, it should be to offer incentives to work. If your welfare is x, and your pay is y, and y doesn't meet x, then maybe you should be offered welfare payment to go over x. Now if y is greater than x then stop paying x welfare.

 

[Daffy Duck]

God I nearly choked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=DMI2tIGi1Iw

 

[kmag]

Work builds character

Arbeit macht frei