Facebook discourse will always be bottom of the barrel. I'd expect there to be a similar post about them being labour fans on some other post.
Much like the bbc is for Labour and conservatives depending on who you ask.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Much like the bbc is for Labour and conservatives depending on who you ask.
They've been pretty independent. But as always objective analysis isn't always the best form of reporting - which sounds kinda off but do realise any statistic can have an angle. Sometimes we can elevate 'crappier' policies and miss other great arguments just like with brexit.
I'd like to see more comparisons to other countries for example.
YouGov has it a bit younger, at 34.
Code:
[IMG]https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2017-04-25/Age%20predictor-01.png[/IMG]https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/
Air Zombie Meat
Member
It'd be interesting to find out how many of them vote tory out of tradition. Thats what my older family members do much to my frustration.
Audioboxer
Member
"Fucking old people".
It's like the closer you get to your casket the more likely you are to YOLO and say let's fuck this UK up!
Stats have been known for a while to show the gulf in voting between young/old in this country. Brexit was the same, and even indyref in Scotland followed the usual trends. The young often try to usher in change and/or more progressive social policy, the old want to stick to what they know, or some go out of their way to say "fuck you" to anyone who isn't them.
It's why I argued pages back along with figures that Labour really needs to try and stimulate the 18~24 voting bracket who have some of the worst turnout numbers. The young might often vote in a progressive way, but they routinely do not show up in any sort of respectable numbers. The old go out and vote like it's enforced conscription.
edit: Brexit figures
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
It's like the closer you get to your casket the more likely you are to YOLO and say let's fuck this UK up!
Stats have been known for a while to show the gulf in voting between young/old in this country. Brexit was the same, and even indyref in Scotland followed the usual trends. The young often try to usher in change and/or more progressive social policy, the old want to stick to what they know, or some go out of their way to say "fuck you" to anyone who isn't them.
It's why I argued pages back along with figures that Labour really needs to try and stimulate the 18~24 voting bracket who have some of the worst turnout numbers. The young might often vote in a progressive way, but they routinely do not show up in any sort of respectable numbers. The old go out and vote like it's enforced conscription.
edit: Brexit figures
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
FlammableD
Banned
That'd be interesting to see if/how that point has changed over time
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, different methodologies and so on. That was also in April, and Labour is doing noticeably better since. But you can see the ballpark figure.
Kotetsu534
Member
There's a really interesting gender split among the under 40s in the YouGov poll there: under 40 men are essentially split evenly between Labour and the Tories, at just over 30% each, while Labour are 15 points up among women under 40, holding 42% of them (among men and women over 40 there's hardly any difference). Also, of the under 40 Lib Dem vote, men outnumber women 3 to 2.
Little Old Man
Member
How many papers will have the image of Corbyn with the copy of the Labour manifesto, with a caption along the lines of 'Chairman Cor's Little Red Book'?
I'm going with at least a couple.
I'm going with at least a couple.
Theonik
Member
Urge to vote intensifies
e: Bought a copy.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Not all old people are bad however. There are plenty who voted Remain and stand alongside us at pro EU protests and such, and are for socially liberal stuff. I want to see an age breakdown of approval of gay marriage for instance. I heard that the generation who fought in WW2 were much more pro Remain than other old people who didn't.
boxoctosis
Member
What about being left wing, voting Leave and in favour of gay marriage? Bad or good?
My point, on both sides (left/right) there's a tendency to label either/or as good/bad. Yet I know some brilliant wise empathetic conservative voters and some awful dickhead labour voters. And ditto, some dickheads on both sides of the Brexit vote.
We seem to be following the US's path, both sides becoming increasingly partisan. It's a real shame.
Ravensmash
Member
I agree with this.
Hmm... just had a debate with someone who said we can't get corporations to pay even the 19 per cent corporation tax, what's the chances of trying to get them to pay 26 per cent?
My own view: The chances of getting billion pound companies to pay 26 per cent is nearer nil than 1 per cent.
My own view: The chances of getting billion pound companies to pay 26 per cent is nearer nil than 1 per cent.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
It is both!
Why can't everyone who's eligible to vote be automatically registered? That would go along way to get young people to vote.
Side note you know what sucks? I was born in this country lived here my entire life and my dad is English, however since my mother is French, I don't have English citizenship and therefore can't vote in the general election.
Like shouldn't I automatically be English my father is English working class as it gets he never paid child support and looks like he would fit on the Jeremy kyle show!
Yes I know I could get English citizenship but with brexit I'm glad I have a french passport.
Side note you know what sucks? I was born in this country lived here my entire life and my dad is English, however since my mother is French, I don't have English citizenship and therefore can't vote in the general election.
Like shouldn't I automatically be English my father is English working class as it gets he never paid child support and looks like he would fit on the Jeremy kyle show!
Yes I know I could get English citizenship but with brexit I'm glad I have a french passport.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Anecdotally there have been quite a lot of oldies helping deliver leaflets and canvas in the past couple of weeks. 
Don't assume the grey vote are all racist or Brexiteers!
Was doing my nightly newsround and caught a 10 minute interview of Farron by a Sky presenter that threw "but there were newspapers out there that showed pictures of adult-looking Syrians pretending to be children!" as a counter-argument to the policy of re-opening the Dubs scheme...
I would have got very cross if that was me being interviewed! Considering that Farron has actually been to refugee camps, I'm amazed he held his temper.
On Labour today, I think their manifesto is committing too much money to expanding the government and too much extra tax and regulation on business at the same time as them advocating leaving the single market. I also worry about the specific pledge to make everyone have the same worker's rights from day one at a job - that's not clear enough. BUT, if they scaled back some of the ambitions - say, just focused on re-nationalising the railways piece by piece, made benefits fairer rather than totally scrapped tuition fees, maybe didn't go so far in a few other places - and didn't leave the single market, it'd be what I'd consider a "normal social democratic manifesto". The problem is that they want to do this whilst leaving the single market, redrafting several decades of EU legislation, trying to get some sort of new trade deal with the EU and trying to get quick deals abroad. I really do not think that washes as achievable. And that's not me wearing my Lib Dem hat trying to score a party-political point, that's my honest assessment
It's a bloody massive thing too - 130 or so pages. It's more like an Argos catalogue than a manifesto.
Don't assume the grey vote are all racist or Brexiteers!Was doing my nightly newsround and caught a 10 minute interview of Farron by a Sky presenter that threw "but there were newspapers out there that showed pictures of adult-looking Syrians pretending to be children!" as a counter-argument to the policy of re-opening the Dubs scheme...
I would have got very cross if that was me being interviewed! Considering that Farron has actually been to refugee camps, I'm amazed he held his temper.
On Labour today, I think their manifesto is committing too much money to expanding the government and too much extra tax and regulation on business at the same time as them advocating leaving the single market. I also worry about the specific pledge to make everyone have the same worker's rights from day one at a job - that's not clear enough. BUT, if they scaled back some of the ambitions - say, just focused on re-nationalising the railways piece by piece, made benefits fairer rather than totally scrapped tuition fees, maybe didn't go so far in a few other places - and didn't leave the single market, it'd be what I'd consider a "normal social democratic manifesto". The problem is that they want to do this whilst leaving the single market, redrafting several decades of EU legislation, trying to get some sort of new trade deal with the EU and trying to get quick deals abroad. I really do not think that washes as achievable. And that's not me wearing my Lib Dem hat trying to score a party-political point, that's my honest assessment
It's a bloody massive thing too - 130 or so pages. It's more like an Argos catalogue than a manifesto.
You can have two passports. My situation is the same as yours and I can vote in the UK.
Aye, there or thereabouts.
I do think we'll see it slide up the scale as people in their mid-thirties today move into middle age and beyond without any foreseeable improvement in their financial outlook. There's no reason for them to transition into 'safe' mode and vote for the status quo.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Project Fear amirite.
I'm confused...does the daily mail want me to ignore experts or not?
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's a sad day when The Times and the Daily Mail run basically the same headline.
Yes, Labour's figures are going to be off by a bit. But quite a bit of it will be attributable to Brexit. And they've not answered the basic question of "how are you going to find time to pass all these new business legislations when you have to re-write decades of UK law when we leave the EU?".
Yes, Labour's figures are going to be off by a bit. But quite a bit of it will be attributable to Brexit. And they've not answered the basic question of "how are you going to find time to pass all these new business legislations when you have to re-write decades of UK law when we leave the EU?".
Audioboxer
Member
LOL. Tell me about it.
Unfortunately it's nonsense. It is important young people vote and vote for their interests, but practically the young is going to keep getting shafted if they can't convince older voters that the young need a break. You have to remember that, realistically, you only vote in a handful of general elections as a young person. Your interests shift massively as you go through your twenties and thirties, dependent on success, whether you own a home, whether you're in a relationship, whether you have children, and so forth. A young person might vote three or four times before they're no longer young. It's not enough to swing an election.
Hell, those who are affected by tuition fees changes are very often people who have never voted.
Yes, young people get out vote. But you know what else you need to do? Talk to your parents, your aunts, your uncles, older colleagues and friends. We need to persuade people that the situation facing the young in this country is unfair and, in the long term, bad for the entire country. One other thing, actually, young people need to get over the feeling that the Liberal Democrats betrayed them between 2010 and 2015.
You're right. I had big arguments with my mum before the referendum asking her to vote remain. But she's a Daily Mail reader, so all I got in return is how the EU is basically the new Nazi regime, and how wonderful the UK was before the EU started expanding and getting out of control etc etc. Oh, and EU army.
Indeed it would be an insane undertaking, it already is without all that.
And all the rich would leave the UK too, leaving us with the likes of Joe McElderry trying to do his bit for the economy, rather than Adele.
Audioboxer
Member
(older) Family members and social media is where it is at these days. Reposting shitty articles and getting into arguments with each other. Almost like they're trying to be down with the kids who are all posting memes and trolling/shitposting each other.
Hey, there is possibly even some mums and dads posting on GAF. The real place for grounded political debate................. 👀 I'll tell you what, it's probably better than the average family tea time arguments around the dinner table. Drop the voting age to 16 across the UK and they'll be even more fireworks in homes.
Which is a healthy thing I guess. One of the worst things youth can do is just say I'm voting x because my parents vote x. I'm voting for x because I believe in it is different. Politics should never be treated like football teams. Support your local or support what your family does. Nah, think for yourself and actually spend a small slice of your time doing some "homework". Try and not have that homework be reading the Daily Mail either.
Yep, the concept that money is a meaningful representation of your valuable work is so, so wrong.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Hang on...dissolution isn't progressive social policy (not to mention it would have led to more austerity given the declining price of oil happening at the same time), and the very young and women were anti-independence.
The only group that was super pro-independence was 30-40 something males. Not all that young...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948
Audioboxer
Member
Hang on...dissolution isn't progressive social policy (not to mention it would have led to more austerity given the declining price of oil happening at the same time), and the very young and women were anti-independence.
The only group that was super pro-independence was 30-40 something males. Not all that young...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948
I'm not rehashing indyref pros and cons quite yet, other than my strong desire to ditch Tory reign, and things like Trident, which I've mentioned in recent posts. I'll save that debating for when I think we inevitably get another vote. As for polls last one I read was this https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll / http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/voted-yes-voted/
But okay the sample size is lower. Either way the trend of more no's the older the age bracket is still in play. The whole country tends to split between what youth votes versus old. Especially that 65+ bracket. There's almost always strong unity to vote right wing, vote for the status quo, or vote for something that aims to attack anything "anti-British". Immigrants included as multiculturalism is seen as a slight on "British values".
Middle ages are quite fiercely contested, but the general trends are the older you get from legal voting age the more people start to move to whatever the 65+ category is voting as its majority.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Some random rabidly pro-Brexit guy on /r/europe (the super free trade, no tariff kind) said that Scotland appears to be voting for an anti independence majority in this election. Any truth to this?
Also, yes, you can have dual citizenship though some countries e.g. Netherlands forbid it and you have to choose between them. Dutch guy I knew in high school is gooonnnee from the UK forever now, lol, he was like "fuck this" and moved back
Also, yes, you can have dual citizenship though some countries e.g. Netherlands forbid it and you have to choose between them. Dutch guy I knew in high school is gooonnnee from the UK forever now, lol, he was like "fuck this" and moved back
Audioboxer
Member
Scotland will be largely voting behind the guise of yes/no for independence in the same way as it's being framed as voting (again) for Brexit in England. As in voting Conservative in England shows that bitch EU who is boss and that May is the woman to kick their arse.
As for a majority? Depends what you mean? The SNP will win way more seats than any other party, but will most likely drop from their 56 to 40 odds. The Unionists are unifying behind the Tories so instead of being split behind Conservative/Labour which actually makes it easier for the SNP to win seats, most seem to want to go all in on Conservatives.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
In that the SNP (and Scottish Greens) won't get ~50 percent of the vote? Time will tell.
But with FPTP, it's all about seats, and the pro-Union parties need to gain seats, which is difficult as there are three pro-Union parties that can viably get at least one seat in Scotland (and did so in 2015), whereas there's one big tent nationalist party of note, the SNP, so who votes and where determines where those seats go. It's all a race to the finish, so marginal victories can be more important than landslides. A constituency can realistically vote ~65-70 percent Labour/Lib Dem/Tory and still be picked up by a nationalist: Exhibit A
edit: What Audioboxer said, though it'd be nice if the other pro-Union parties can at least keep their seats in Edinburgh South and Shetland & Orkney.
Audioboxer
Member
Edinburgh is going blue, that's my bet (fierce no vote for independence and it'll always be that way). I'm actually excited for the Scottish results in the GE. It's got the potential for the biggest upset, or possibly still show a potential opposition for the Conservatives when Labour are sinking. Plus me being happy or despairing throughout the night is bound to keep many entertained.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Yeah I meant whether the SNP would win more seats than every other party creating a pro independence mandate to hold another referendum at some point. That guy claimed that if SNP didn't win a majority like he thinks they won't, they have to listen to the people who would clearly be against independence in that circumstance. And vice versa.
I wonder how long you have to live in Scotland to vote in a new independence referendum. If I don't manage to move to the EU in 2 years (to be honest, don't see it happening at all with my job situation at the moment, 4 years is more realistic but you know, the barriers put up by Brexit to living there, which is one pretty big part of why I despise Brexit), a big city in Scotland is one of my options for relocating within the UK. I hear housing there is actually...affordable to rent. Living with my parents is truly stifling. If I one day can vote in an indy referendum I would vote to leave the UK and re-enter the EU. So you might have 1 more pro independence guy at some point.
Audioboxer
Member
I know I know. Some just want to drag others down with them when they are on a sinking ship
Indyref2 was voted through in the Scottish Parliament. There is a mandate for it. The roll of the dice is really when a vote goes ahead, from the point of view it's Sturgeons career on the line and unless the UK then goes and votes for something else completely mental in 5 years you probably can kiss goodbye to a chance at independence for the bulk of our lifetimes (if it was no again). Brexit really is what has thrown a lifeline to it this quickly. However, sure, the country keeps voting for a pro-independence party and there will always be an open desire for it (from the mouths of the MP's with seats in Parliament).
The best time to go through with it is at the closing stages of Brexit when all is known/in the immediate closing. The nonsense of a vote happening right now was just to whip the people into a frenzy. A lot more info is needed on what's going to happen for the UK, and hey, another year or two of everyone suffering under the Tories winning next month will probably only help the cause.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
I know I know. Some just want to drag others down with them when they are on a sinking ship
Indyref2 was voted through in the Scottish Parliament. There is a mandate for it. The roll of the dice is really when a vote goes ahead, from the point of view it's Sturgeons career on the line and unless the UK then goes and votes for something else completely mental in 5 years you probably can kiss goodbye to a chance at independence for the bulk of our lifetimes.
A successful EU+ USA-lite rUK in 5 years if both of these occur might well help the independence cause. What Macron+Merkel does with EU reform might swing a few Scottish Eurosceptics back to pro-EU again. Because right now the Leave voting Yes minority seems to be switching to Conservative because the SNP is fighting a pro-EU independence case.
The social model of the UK vs the rest of Europe being so different (and bad) might make it so Scots can't stand being in the UK anymore. I can see that happening if the NHS keeps getting wrecked slowly. And the immigrants can't be blamed anymore because of the EU referendum. If the model of Brexit is "almost total cutoff from the rest of our continent" then indy is a possibility. If it turns out to be softer than we think (for example, even though the UK technically has left the single market, but is still influenced by EU regulations and the like, almost seamless trade, membership of EU programs like Horizon 2020 and Erasmus and with reciprocal lax immigration controls, lax as in "here is job so here is work permit, welcome in brah", satisfying many) then indy is far less likely.
You forget our tendency​ to fuck ourselves over.
Edit plus the SNP are a ten year govt now, we've reached the peak and are now on the slow inevitable decline and natural political swing to opposition.
Audioboxer
Member
What have they done now? I largely try to avoid American politics as it's on another planet from us.
What we really need to be answered is genuine facts around how Scotland has to negotiate potential EU membership. I'm talking cold hard facts. Right now there is still uncertainty around that and both camps peddling their narratives (the Spain will outright veto nonsense was bullshit, only applicable to us not being legally separated). What is clear however is the EU wants Brexit concluded before they'll publicly talk with Scotland. Sturgeon obviously went and spoke to people but words are words, we need the facts crystal clear.
Hence why I think that might mess around with when a vote may occur. If there is some sort of potential for us to negotiate right at the end just before we fully leave, then the vote may make sense then. Which is roughly what Sturgeon is banking on right now saying the vote will happen as per May's statement of the Brexit timetable. If we have to fully leave with the UK to then go back in, then it might be best to hang around the crumbling UK a bit longer to amp up the suffering for longer, lol.
Get that fox hunting back in as well, that will rustle some jimmies up here!
Trump nudge nudge winked winked Comey to drop the Gen Flynn investigation. Comey kept records, leaked to press after he got sacked.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
So centre-left pro Europe government in 5 years since we've had 7 years of Conservative government by now? pls pls pls
If we want to be back in the EU or the EEA again whilst we're still relatively young, as in younger than 40, let alone in our lifetimes, Brexit will have to have obvious negatives that people will feel. Or it turns out to be fucking amazing for everyone and I'll have worried about nothing (lol, about as likely as Trump making America great again, though technically it could happen).
I wish. Anyone else but Corbyn and seats would be taken. May is beatable too.
Cameron could atleast fake empathy, her default stance it seems is to be dismissively patronising.
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