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[tomtom94]

I think also that those who rely on the "evil Tories" line or something like it don't realise that it is counterproductive. Sure, it talks to the base and it's got emotional appeal and fight the good fight and all that, and it doesn't require all that much actual thinking.

But the argument falls to pieces when people meet actual real-life non-evil Tories, so it tends to ghettoise support.

For me personally it's the last election and the £8 billion of uncosted welfare cuts. And the fact that while the Tories immediately began backpedalling on a whole load of other campaign promises, that was one of the few lines in the sand they wouldn't go back across.

I have sympathy for people who swallowed Cameron's idea of a modern, fairly liberal, business-friendly (European) Tory party, and I'd completely understand the sort of person for whom Corbyn is just too left-wing, but... basically people try to get out of it and say "well, it was the least worst option" or "I couldn't vote for Miliband", and that isn't good enough for me. If you vote FOR a party you should be able to justify that.

This isn't personally targeted at you, by the way, I'm just putting out there why people slip into it.

 

[Vagabundo]

"They"? Who do you mean? To me it just looks like a journalist looking for an angle that isn't really there.

Tory spin doctors/May supporters, whoever is peddling these theories. I've seen this idea floating around the place; that May is a secretly soft on brexit and it is the looney backbenchers holding her to ransom, if only she had he an overwhelming majority she could steer the UK to a safe harbour.

 

[Faddy]

For me personally it's the last election and the £8 billion of uncosted welfare cuts. And the fact that while the Tories immediately began backpedalling on a whole load of other campaign promises, that was one of the few lines in the sand they wouldn't go back across.

I have sympathy for people who swallowed Cameron's idea of a modern, fairly liberal, business-friendly (European) Tory party, and I'd completely understand the sort of person for whom Corbyn is just too left-wing, but... basically people try to get out of it and say "well, it was the least worst option" or "I couldn't vote for Miliband", and that isn't good enough for me. If you vote FOR a party you should be able to justify that.

This isn't personally targeted at you, by the way, I'm just putting out there why people slip into it.

^ This

What policy of Theresa May has been good or popular?

 

[TimmmV]

Obviously people disagree and everyone thinks their way is the right one - that's why they think it. If they thought someone elses was the right way, they'd think that. But I think that most of the right recognise that your Corbyns and your McDonnels and whoever are doing absolutely what they think is best. Even when they're talking about their buddies in the IRA and Hezzbollah, I understand that it's coming from a place where they want to help. I Don't understand why that view's not reciprocated and the discussions happen on what policy works best for what problem, rather than the weird shit above which is basically a scary story that get told to kids who don't eat all their veg.

You think thats how Corbyns thoughts on the IRA and Hezbollah (or also the Falklands) have been portrayed? Come on

Because the 'tweaks' made by the coalition and the Tories have been all about giving people the best chance they can to succeed.

My wife is a social worker working with mainly families with disabled children, and while in Scotland we're mostly inured to the worst of the Tory 'tweaks', even here the degradation to the system in recent years is fucking frightening.

Nothing about the Tories policies in regards to welfare are about improvement of service, they're all about saving money. That's why they've continually cut the welfare bill (you know without actually cutting the biggest part of it because you know old cunts vote Tory). You can convince yourself it's all about improving the chances of people, it's not. There's nothing about improving the life chances of someone by making late stage terminally ill undertake work assessments, or for immediately deducting housing benefit from someone when their kid dies and they happen to now have a room free. But, hey if it helps you sleep at night.

I'd perhaps agree with you to a degree on say employment benefit, where there's very much a (tiny) carrot and (massive) stick approach. Which is clearly a right wing approach to getting people back to work. I can understand the appeal and some of the logic, but that frankly that's a very small proportion of the welfare bill. The right wing approach to the rest of the welfare system, the health care system, the social care system and the local government system very much seems to be stress it until it breaks and let private enterprise pick up the pieces.

I can understand people voting for right wing parties, although I'd like to think most of them just ignore most of the worst stuff in favour of some of the economic stuff (although the Tory track record there is pretty shitty and has been pre-financial crisis as well).

I would also add prisons to this list. My dad does a lot of work in them, and has told me stories about how badly run they've gotten in the last 5 or so years. All of it is about reducing cost, with no real thought as to the workload or well being for prison staff, and next to no thought towards the prisoner either.

 

[Meadows]

Proportional representation?

Eh? I didn't post that...

 

[Real Hero]

Eh? I didn't post that...

Yeah I dunno why that happened

 

[D4Danger]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-progressive-alliance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Surrey Labour party could vote to back a Liberal Democrat candidate next week to try to unseat the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, defying the national party which has said it will not entertain any “progressive alliance”.

sure, why not.

 

[Jackpot]

You don't have to read the right wing press to hear about the headlines. That's the beauty of it. Most people don't buy the daily mail, but you sure as heck hear about the stupid ass headlines they have regardless.

If it came down to each persons policies, and nothing else, Corbyn would never have the poor public opinion he does. The media, and yes, the tories, made a deliberate and targetted campaign against his person from day 1. It's a lot like Trump against Hilary, actually. not quite as bombasticly stupid as that example, but perhaps even more effective. Roleros thought that Corbyn "makes it far too easy for his critics every single time, and, more importantly, the media is what it is." is right on the money, of course, but it's still much more the deliberate plan of the Tories/media to keep the opposition down because they quite well aware they'd never do it on the policies they have alone.

Fortunately the other two people who quoted me agree and didn't degrade to insults instantly, so as a best of 3, I declare you the deluded one. (And this is meant as very tongue in cheek, just in case it isn't obvious enough.)

I gave Corbyn a chance and was initially welcoming, mocking stuff like Cameron's claims he was a "threat to national security". But even ignoring all the snide headlines there was the stuff coming from his own party showing in black and white terms how he was torpedoing his own initiatives and launches through incompetence and miscommunication.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=212033409&postcount=2256

Mr Corbyn appointed me and press released this without my knowledge or consent whilst I was in the middle of cancer treatment. He then sacked me the next day when he realized he had given away part of someone else's role. But didn't bother to tell me that either.

Incredibly, Jeremy launched a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle on the same day. This was the reshuffle that had been talked about since the Syria vote a month earlier. A vote where I supported Jeremy's position. The reshuffle that meant all our staff spent Christmas not knowing whether they'd have a job by the New Year. By mid-afternoon the press were camped outside the Leader's office. They were there for the next 3 days.

It knocked all the coverage of the rail fare rise and our public ownership policy off every news channel and every front page.

My office and I spent months preparing for a Labour Party review into special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) to feed into Labour's manifesto for the 2020 General Election. I identified the issues we needed to address; I raised questions in the chamber; I met stakeholders to discuss the review, and my staff put together a briefing for the wider PLP and the Leadership Office, and worked to get media coverage. Three days after the launch, I found out that my review had been completely undermined by our Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.

Without consulting me, John had announced his support for a Shadow Neurodiversity Minister and an autism manifesto. My office picked up John's announcement on Twitter, and subsequently raised the issue with him, requesting an opportunity to meet to discuss the matter further. After receiving no response, my team made several more attempts to reach out to John's office, which were all met with no answer.

”John McDonnell invited NHS campaigners to a meeting in the Commons but didn't invite me. I challenged him about it. I was then invited and I was shouted at by some of the attendees."

After that meeting on 13 April, she said, ”John McDonnell then invited them to form an advisory group (again not telling me). I found out about this, said it was totally unacceptable and it must not be an advisory group."

I had the opportunity to see what was happening inside the PLP. The leadership wasn't confusing as much as just silent. There was no policy direction, no messaging, no direction, no co-ordination, no nothing. Shadow ministers appeared to have been left with no direction as to what to do. It was shambolic. The leadership usually couldn't even get a press release out on time to meet print media deadlines and then complained they got no coverage.

Last autumn, I complained when a Saturday speech by Corbyn was released far too late on a Friday to secure much space in the next day's Independent. ”It won't happen again," Corbyn's office assured me. Seven days on, another Saturday speech arrived – an hour later than the previous one. I know this sounds like trivial gossip from the Westminster village but on each occasion, incompetence prevented Corbyn from getting positive media coverage.

And then, for me, there is the red line of Brexit. The indifferent campaigning, implementing a 3 line whip in favour before negotiating any concessions, "the real fight starts now", etc.

 

[Hazzuh]

Perhaps the real reason Farage isn't standing?

 

[phisheep]

This isn't personally targeted at you, by the way, I'm just putting out there why people slip into it.

Oh, of course. And I'm not going to assume that people mean me personally unless they actually say so. But I am a bit apprehensive of getting somewhat shredded over the next 5 weeks or so.

If you vote FOR a party you should be able to justify that.

Absolutely agree. Though sometimes it gets to the point where there's no value even trying to justify it in the face of unthought-through vitriol (as Republican voters found in PoliGaf last year, as Brexiteers found in the referendum thread, and as NRA-type people and gun-controllers both find in every gun control thread ever, and as I hope doesn't happen in this one).

It cuts both ways too. If I'm going to attempt to justify my voting intentions then I expect to be met with better arguments than unwarranted accusations of genocide and 'anything but the evil Tories'.

Perhaps the real reason Farage isn't standing?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if May negotiates Brexit to take place effective the day before Farage reaches that anniversary. That's something we could all support probably. Well, except the Brexit bit maybe, but you know what I mean.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I can only imagine Republicans would be even less well received in a UK political thread, but that's beside the point.

 

[jem0208]

I can only imagine Republicans would be even less well received in a UK political thread, but that's beside the point.

The republicans are regarded as completely ridiculous by even the very pro conservative people I know.

 

[TimmmV]

Absolutely agree. Though sometimes it gets to the point where there's no value even trying to justify it in the face of unthought-through vitriol (as Republican voters found in PoliGaf last year, as Brexiteers found in the referendum thread, and as NRA-type people and gun-controllers both find in every gun control thread ever, and as I hope doesn't happen in this one).

It cuts both ways too. If I'm going to attempt to justify my voting intentions then I expect to be met with better arguments than unwarranted accusations of genocide and 'anything but the evil Tories'.

A lot goes into whether someone is willing to discuss something and how they phrase their arguments - its why people (well, in my opinion anyway) respond to posters like you or CyclopsRock, (and occasionally even QuicheFontaine) fairly reasonably.

The really venomous replies are generally only reserved if someone is saying something particularly ignorant or stupid - as often seen in the Brexit OT to posters that I wont single out.

 

[phisheep]

A lot goes into whether someone is willing to discuss something and how they phrase their arguments - its why people (well, in my opinion anyway) respond to posters like you or CyclopsRock, (and occasionally even QuicheFontaine) fairly reasonably.

The really venomous replies are generally only reserved if someone is saying something particularly ignorant or stupid - as often seen in the Brexit OT to posters that I wont single out.

Oh yeah. Usually pretty polite here. Sometimes gets a bit derailed by people who haven't posted in politics threads before, but I don't have problems with you regulars - far from it.

 

[Hooligan69]

Especially if you don't want the Conservatives to have a majority again! It's so important, now more than ever.

Why does this sound so familiar?

Doesn't matter anyway, it seems derpy conservatism is on the rise everywhere no matter what we do, so brace your buttholes for more of it.

*This is a public service announcement made to cushion the blow of disappointment from high hopes and the fuckery of our stupid-ass world*

 

[Hazzuh]

The election's going well then..

Context.

Spoiler

There is no context.

 

[phisheep]

I'm still chatting to my customers about politics. I think this will be a difficult election to poll. So far - in just a couple of days - I've found examples of people shifting votes from and to every party, with two exceptions: nobody is shifting to UKIP and nobody is shifting away from LibDems.

 

[spuckthew]

http://uk.isidewith.com

86% SNP
81% Lib Dem
77% Labour
...
53% Conservative
...
24% UKIP
11% BNP

 

[Kyougar]

coming from a somewhat central-left German view:


63% Labour
59% Liberal Democrat
56% Green
55% SNP
47% Plaid Cymru
41% Conservative
36% UKIP
36% Sinn Féin
23% Democratic Unionist
20% British National


Nuclear use gave ukip a jump it seems. Dont know why there where no questions about green energy. I am currently for further use of existing nuclear plants but would like it to get swapped out with renewables. is the UK green party not on it?

 

[Roberto Larcos]

I'm still chatting to my customers about politics. I think this will be a difficult election to poll. So far - in just a couple of days - I've found examples of people shifting votes from and to every party, with two exceptions: nobody is shifting to UKIP and nobody is shifting away from LibDems.

Where are you based? And what is your clientele?

 

[Huw_Dawson]

That Fish Finger story is amazing. But why against Tim Farron?

 

[phisheep]

Where are you based? And what is your clientele?

Weston-super-Mare. Customers almost entirely female aged 20-96 roughly evenly split between working/retired/on benefits. Seat is traditionally Tory/LibDem marginal, though Labour came second last time with LibDem collapse. Area voted about 70% pro-Brexit I think. Population mixed with some sink areas, lots of working-class retirees, lots of Bristol commuters, immigration historically low but gone up noticeably in last 7 years or so.

Tourist season just starting up, so I'll also get lots of Welsh and Brummies and some Cotswolds and East of England over the next few weeks.

Current MP is in sane branch of Conservative Party. Excellent LibDem candidate in the wings if he goes for it. Rest of the candidates are pretty invisible.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

If people want blue passports so bad, I want them to consider some of these designs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39455495

I at least, want a modern, good looking passport.

I want to vote Lib Dems, but I have to vote Labour (and my MP is a centrist anti-Brexit kind of guy and defied Corbyn over it) because it's a Labour safe seat. He regularly wins by huge majorities here.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

If people want blue passports so bad, I want them to consider some of these designs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39455495

I at least, want a modern, good looking passport.

I like the white design.

 

[tomtom94]

That Fish Finger story is amazing. But why against Tim Farron?

The page reads: "This seat has been held since 2005 by Tim Farron, who lost to a fish finger - by a margin of around 99% - in a poll of over 1,000 people, when asked "Who would you trust to lead you more?".

My guess is somebody made a bet in the pub and it kind of spiralled.

 

[Par Score]

They also implemented Section 28, a nasty piece of legislation that had a significant impact on anyone gay growing up in the 80s and 90s like myself. I didn't eve realise I was gay until I hit 20 thanks to that shitty piece of legislation, and spent my teenage years hating myself for it.

It's on this point exactly that I struggle to have sympathy for those pushing against the "Evil Tories" narrative.

Section 28 is one of the most hateful, damaging and downright abusive pieces of legislation ever to be passed. I'm not making some abstract point here about how fucking horrible homophobia in general is either. Section 28 has had a genuine, lasting, and profoundly negative impact on my life, and the lives of many people I know and love.

Theresa May, leader of the Conservatives and the current PM, voted against its repeal. I can't see that as anything other than an act of malicious evil, it is impossible for me to do so.


Now, should I tar all Conservatives with this same brush? Frankly, she's your bloody leader, and if you vote for them, you vote for her.

 

[travisbickle]

If people want blue passports so bad, I want them to consider some of these designs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39455495

I at least, want a modern, good looking passport.

I want to vote Lib Dems, but I have to vote Labour (and my MP is a centrist anti-Brexit kind of guy and defied Corbyn over it) because it's a Labour safe seat. He regularly wins by huge majorities here.

They shouldn't rush the new passport design they might have to change the phrase United Kingdom in a few years.

 

[zonetrooper5]

66% Labour
65% SNP
63% Lib Dems
61% Plaid Cymru
56% Green
55% Sinn Fein
49% Conservative
43% Democratic Unionist
36% BNP

Your ideology...

Left-Wing

Your political beliefs would be considered moderately Left-Wing on an ideological scale, meaning you tend to support policies that promote social and economic equality.

Live in the South East in Esher&Walton pretty much a Conservative stronghold, not sure who to vote for since I'm not too keen on the three main parties and also the Greens/UKIP.

 

[HaloRose]

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

 

[Pancake Mix]

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

You should still vote (and vote Labour). It's a civic duty to vote.

 

[Pandy]

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

Who do you want to win the election?

Because if the answer is Labour or 'Not the Tories' then you absolutely should vote Labour.

If your answer is another party, you should vote for them. They probably won't have had a better chance to win that seat in your lifetime.

 

[DBT85]

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

And it will continue to be one if people think like this and don't vote.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

If the milions of people that say they're not voting as it won't make a difference actually voted...

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Theresa May, leader of the Conservatives and the current PM, voted against its repeal. I can't see that as anything other than an act of malicious evil, it is impossible for me to do so.

Cameron voted against its repeal, May abstained. Which is still rancid, all things considered.

 

[Pancake Mix]

And it will continue to be one if people think like this and don't vote.

He should absolutely vote, but the way you worded it was odd.

...What's wrong with a safe Labour seat?

 

[Spaced Harrier]

You should still vote (and vote Labour). It's a civic duty to vote.

No it's not, it's a free choice to vote, not vote, or spoil a vote.

Also if he is correct and it's a truly safe seat his vote is Meaningless. That is the nature of FPTP. The only pact it has is in overalls party votes %

He'd be better of spending his time and energy campaigning in his nearest marginal Constituency.

Lol at having the BNP above Conservative for some reason.

Also Gerry Addams is not sinn fein leader in UK I think. Michelle somebody or other.

Genuinely don't get that first paragraph.
The UK sides with Conservative. You side with every body in almost all elements. Eh?

 

[blazinglord]

It's on this point exactly that I struggle to have sympathy for those pushing against the "Evil Tories" narrative.

Section 28 is one of the most hateful, damaging and downright abusive pieces of legislation ever to be passed. I'm not making some abstract point here about how fucking horrible homophobia in general is either. Section 28 has had a genuine, lasting, and profoundly negative impact on my life, and the lives of many people I know and love.

Theresa May, leader of the Conservatives and the current PM, voted against its repeal. I can't see that as anything other than an act of malicious evil, it is impossible for me to do so.


Now, should I tar all Conservatives with this same brush? Frankly, she's your bloody leader, and if you vote for them, you vote for her.

Cameron voted against its repeal, May abstained. Which is still rancid, all things considered.

Also, didn't Theresa May push for and voted for gay marriage?

I mean, I am not denying that May is very right wing on some social issues, notably immigration, but context and looking at the whole picture is important here. The 80's and 90's were a very different time, and a lot of people's views have evolved considerably over the past twenty years.

 

[Acorn]

Also, didn't Theresa May push for and voted for gay marriage?

I mean, I am not denying that May is very right wing on some social issues, notably immigration, but context and looking at the whole picture is important here. The 80's and 90's were a very different time, and a lot of people's views have evolved considerably over the past twenty years.

She voted against everything or abstained from her entrance into parliament upto 07.

She wasn't in parliament until 1997. So it wasn't like we were in the dark ages.

 

[satriales]

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

Still get out and vote.
I live in a safe Tory seat, that's only ever been Tory for like a hundred years, yet I'll be voting Labour again no matter how pointless it may be.

 

[Mr. Sam]

ISideWith reckons I should vote SNP. If you'll excuse me, I'll be on the next train to Edinburgh.

 

[phisheep]

Times change, and ferreting out voting records from years back is not necessarily an indicator of current policy, motivation or individual stance.

Plus, the casting of votes on the losing side of a debate can quite often be thrown as a sop to the constituency party.

To take an extreme case, Labour claims to be the party of the NHS - but voted against the Beveridge report in 1943. That doesn't make Labour hypocrites. Just means the times and the circumstances were different.

 

[firehawk12]

Still get out and vote.
I live in a safe Tory seat, that's only ever been Tory for like a hundred years, yet I'll be voting Labour again no matter how pointless it may be.

FPTP democracy in action. lol

 

[MightBeMagic]

You should still vote (and vote Labour). It's a civic duty to vote.

Personally I'd make it illegal not to vote. The 'no point' argument doesn't wash with me.

People died for our right to vote, and politics affects EVERYONE whether you like it or not.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Personally I'd make it illegal not to vote. The 'no point' argument doesn't wash with me.

People died for our right to vote, and politics affects EVERYONE whether you like it or not.

Meh, they have compulsory voting in Australia, and a mate of mine from there says that it just means people who want to abstain have to go down to the polling station and spoil their ballot. If people don't want to vote I say let them. Just gives my vote slightly more power.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

75% - Liberal Democrat
73% - SNP
71% - Labour
68% - Plaid Cymru
60% - Green

I live in a tory safe seat comprised of old, poor, or middle-class racists. So my vote is wasted and has been since I started voting at 18.

 

[pigeon]

Personally I'd make it illegal not to vote. The 'no point' argument doesn't wash with me.

People died for our right to vote, and politics affects EVERYONE whether you like it or not.

Evidence suggests when voting is mandatory the candidate at the top of the ballot outperforms the polls.

Yes, you can solve this by randomizing, but the salient point is that mandatory voting does not necessarily make things more democratic if a certain percentage of voters deliberately vote in a way not likely to maximize their political interests.

 

[MightBeMagic]

Meh, they have compulsory voting in Australia, and a mate of mine from there says that it just means people who want to abstain have to go down to the polling station and spoil their ballot. If people don't want to vote I say let them. Just gives my vote slightly more power.

At least making them visit the polling station will lake them think, they might even change their mind.

 

[MightBeMagic]

Evidence suggests when voting is mandatory the candidate at the top of the ballot outperforms the polls.

Yes, you can solve this by randomizing, but the salient point is that mandatory voting does not necessarily make things more democratic if a certain percentage of voters deliberately vote in a way not likely to maximize their political interests.

I'm not interested in making things more democratic. I just think voting should be something you're made to do. I find it frankly disgusting that for peers in my age group (18-25) turn out is only around 40% whereas for the oldest age group its 80%.

Apathy shouldn't be allowed. You need to vote because the decisions made will affect your life.

Everyone has an opinion on policy, but some arent prepared to cast a vote to maybe chanage that policy.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You think thats how Corbyns thoughts on the IRA and Hezbollah (or also the Falklands) have been portrayed? Come on

No, but again I think the vast majority of people know Corbyn wasn't taking a stance of being "pro blowing up pubs" and just latched onto the IRA out of convenience. It was a principled position about the nature of "British" historic colonialism even on our doorstep blah blah blah. It's tempting to assume that people just blindly eat up newspaper headlines but i think the vast majority have a more nuanced view than that.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Tory spin doctors/May supporters, whoever is peddling these theories. I've seen this idea floating around the place; that May is a secretly soft on brexit and it is the looney backbenchers holding her to ransom, if only she had he an overwhelming majority she could steer the UK to a safe harbour.

I agree. However I can't vote for the conservatives. Regardless of how the Brexit has been handled the government under Cameron and May have been seeking to cut spending on public services. The NHS is facing a cut of 0.6% even though it was promised that they would be given more funds.