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[Mr. Sam]

At home, we will reverse the cuts to our emergency services and police. Once again in Manchester, they have proved to be the best of us. Austerity has to stop at the A&E ward and at the police station door. We cannot be protected and cared for on the cheap. There will be more police on the streets under a Labour Government. And if the security services need more resources to keep track of those who wish to murder and maim, then they should get them.

This is the best part of the speech for me.

 

[jem0208]

Given that that would be about something completely different, most likely, yes.

Are they that different? In both scenarios they're using a tragedy to promote a political point. The only difference is that you agree with one policy and disagree with the other.

It would be pretty damn hypocritical to decry Farron's comments in one scenario and not the other considering he's taking more about the timing/use of a tragedy rather than the content.

 

[Maledict]

That is a huge turnaround from what you were saying in the early days of the campaign. Because Corbyn decided he'd rather be hung as a sheep than a lamb?

Crabs not the only one shifting. After all the polling numbers do reflect a number of people coming home to labour.

 

[PJV3]

Something like that, yes. I mean, he was very fortunate in that there was an enormous own goal (series of own goals) by the Conservatives. May is a much less formidable opponent than Cameron. But you still have to make those chances count, and even though Labour is almost certainly not even reaching hung parliament status, we did not go gentle into that good night.

We just need the PLP to stop playing silly buggers, get the front bench working again and Corbyn out of the bunker.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

This is the best part of the speech for me.

Yup, this is the bit of the speech I have no problem with. No problem making a speech on reversing cuts in the police. It's the foreign policy ideology that's freakish.

 

[D4Danger]

I thought his speech was really good. Informative and sensible without being smug or confrontational. I don't envy anyone trying to talk about this after Monday as it seems so easy to slip up but it's right that people should know what he'd do as PM.

 

[Mr. Sam]

If Corbyn carries on having a good campaign, increases the vote share, or - whisper it - decreases the Tory majority, there's not a force in heaven or on Earth that could persuade the membership to oust him.

 

[Chinner]

Any media reactions from this yet? Wondering how the Mail etc are going to react.

 

[Spuck-uk]

The repurposed Blair quote was nice and sly in there.

edit: 'protecting this country require us to be strong against terrorism and strong against the causes of terrorism'. for those who missed it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Crabs not the only one shifting. After all the polling numbers do reflect a number of people coming home to labour.

I mean, to be clear: I was always voting Labour, and my personal preferences were always on the left of the Labour Party, but I was worried about Corbyn's competence. It would have been heartbreaking for good ideas to pick up ill repute, tarnished through association with a bad Corbyn candidacy. I didn't want that setback. But he's impressed, under incredibly difficult circumstances and great deal of hostility, and I do wonder what might have been if he'd not had to compose a cabinet featuring Diane Abbot as Home Secretary and a backbench full of sniping.

 

[Screaming Meat]

That's a perfectly reasonable response.

Watch the 'papers try and hang him with it.

 

[Hazzuh]

Any media reactions from this yet? Wondering how the Mail etc are going to react.

Guido Fawkes doesn't like it..

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Guido Fawkes doesn't like it..

Hardly a shock.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Fantastic speech, I was worried how he would approach it but he did it well and focused on the fault of the attackers and framed it as a change of approach in foreign policy instead of blaming ourselves.

Of course he will get shit from some but I don't see how anyone who listens to it could disagree.

 

[Fernando Fernandez]

Crabs not the only one shifting. After all the polling numbers do reflect a number of people coming home to labour.

I know there's a poster whose been door stopping for Labour for a long time, would be interesting to hear if there's been a change on the doorstep.

 

[Hazzuh]

Hardly a shock.

Owen Jones does seem to like it though!

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Owen Jones does seem to like it though!

WHOA.

 

[King_Moc]

Just read the transcript. That's a really good speech.

Are they that different? In both scenarios they're using a tragedy to promote a political point. The only difference is that you agree with one policy and disagree with the other.

It would be pretty damn hypocritical to decry Farron's comments in one scenario and not the other considering he's taking more about the timing/use of a tragedy rather than the content.

Well, only one of the two cases involves spying on the general public. So yes, they're different.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Owen Jones does seem to like it though!

He seems to have come round in a way toward Corbyn, probably to do with the polls.

 

[Goodlife]

Perfect speech, IMHO.
Got a little tear in my eye listening to it.

If the media tries to string him up over that, then fuck them. It needed saying and he said it very well.

 

[Audioboxer]

Something like that, yes. I mean, he was very fortunate in that there was an enormous own goal (series of own goals) by the Conservatives. May is a much less formidable opponent than Cameron. But you still have to make those chances count, and even though Labour is almost certainly not even reaching hung parliament status, we did not go gentle into that good night.

The Tories have been scoring own goals for this country for a while. As usual, it's more about the own goals have to actually affect the middle/upper class for a shitstorm to kick off. In this case, worry the over 65+s and finally, some movements in the polls.

It's shite because it all plays into how large portions of the UK give zero fucks about anyone they perceive below them, but right now, many will begrudgingly take it as it looks like it's the only way Labour stand a chance.

 

[Maledict]

Yup, this is the bit of the speech I have no problem with. No problem making a speech on reversing cuts in the police. It's the foreign policy ideology that's freakish.

I'm not Corbyn biggest fan (haha) but there's nothing in that speech that's remotely freakish.

 

[*Splinter]

I don't know why I'm allowing myself to be excited. A slightly reduced Tory majority would result in
-May being replaced by someone worse
-Corbyn staying on for another election
-New levels of smug from the far left
-A Tory majority

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

On a less cynical note, I agree with what Crab just said.

And I am excited to see how this speech is received, against my better judgement.

Hope is the greatest evil and all that.

 

[PJV3]

I'm not Corbyn biggest fan (haha) but there's nothing in that speech that's remotely freakish.

I don't think Huw really believes that, we have a solid history of fucking things up in the region.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I know there's a poster whose been door stopping for Labour for a long time, would be interesting to hear if there's been a change on the doorstep.

I've been doorstepping for Labour in the southernmost marginals this election and I'll say there was a significant shift in the attitude of the... more mature voter once May bungled the social care side of things. The most surprised I was was when I convinced a UKIP voter to vote for Labour on the strength of the local candidate in Hove (or rather, he convinced himself as I nodded along) which I can only assume will be hugely atypical.

Alas, I'm not sure if I'll have time to do any more canvassing in the run-up to the election - I would've liked to have seen the reaction to this on the doorstep.

 

[Pandy]

I'm anti-war usually - I believe that war should only be undertaken when there is a clear need to use it. My degree is in International Politics.

However there is a very large gulf between the Iraq War and using a terror attack as a platform for saying that Western foreign policy causes terrorism.

It's entirely right for someone to call that out as wrong. The fact that it's an opposition party leader saying it is the reason people are jumping on it as hypocritical. But Farron refusing to condemn this is tacit support, and we neither support this timing or support this message.

Sorry, Huw. Farron's language on this has turned me from being effectively neutral on him to disliking him.

(As discussed earlier I wasn't going to vote Lib Dem anyway, but that wasn't on account of Farron.)

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I don't think Huw really believes that, we have a solid history of fucking things up in the region.

Oh yes, but it's not just due to intervention - it's due to a really wide variety of things stretching back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

The causes of a home-grown terror attack like this being linked to our actions abroad doesn't wash. That's why I agree with Corbyn on policing (both our parties want to invest in the police, but we've done our policies differently) but not on foreign affairs.

If you're a radical islamist sitting in a cave in Syria, you're probably going to want someone like Corbyn to come along and say "well obviously the problem is the bombs we're dropping on you. That's why you're angry."

That's the sort of changing sentiment that these people want.

 

[spunodi]

That felt historic and inspiring to me.

This is what I want from a leader,

 

[Sordid]

I won't be voting Labour and I thought the speech was good. I don't expect Labour to win but they're giving me hope that it might not be as bad as things were predicted when the snap election was called 😱

 

[Dougald]

Allegedly the reason there haven't been any Conservative leaflets delivered in my constituency is someone nicked them all shortly after they were delivered to the local party hq. Apparently signed for by a mysterious person and then never seen again

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Allegedly the reason there haven't been any Conservative leaflets delivered in my constituency is someone nicked them all shortly after they were delivered to the local party hq. Apparently signed for by a mysterious person and then never seen again

Excellent.

I mean, uh...

Nothing to do with me, guv.

 

[PJV3]

Oh yes, but it's not just due to intervention - it's due to a really wide variety of things stretching back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't think he claimed we are the only factor and it would all stop tomorrow if we left them alone.

 

[Uzzy]

Intervention can work, but it takes a long time, lots of engagement and a large amount of manpower and resources spent. Look at how long we've been engaged with Kosovo.

Just lobbing a few bombs in won't bring about a lasting solution to anything. I'd have more faith in Tory foreign policy if they were proposing a large scale intervention, to be honest.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Allegedly the reason there haven't been any Conservative leaflets delivered in my constituency is someone nicked them all shortly after they were delivered to the local party hq. Apparently signed for by a mysterious person and then never seen again

I love that this still happens, when I heard a story of this happening in the '97 election.

 

[SomTervo]

Got my postal vote in-hand (I'm away next week)...

Pretty stuck. The site that tells you who to vote for to keep the Tories out says to vote SNP as they're pretty much safe in this constituency. But I legitimately like the noises Labour have been making for the last couple of months, more than anything I've heard from them in decades.

So... a risky Labour vote that could let the Tories in or a tactical SNP vote to play it safe. Fuck

Spoiler

First Past the Post

.

To muddy the waters further, according to a 'policy/manifesto' app online, I agree with SNP's stances on things pretty much just as much as Labour's.

What do I do???

The repurposed Blair quote was nice and sly in there.

edit: 'protecting this country require us to be strong against terrorism and strong against the causes of terrorism'. for those who missed it.

The difference was he added that aggressive actions overseas are what leads to groups like ISIS forming and thus terrorism on our soil

Which is totally true and something Blair evidently never believed/understood

 

[chromatic9]

While I agree with Corbyn and it's good going forward to not intervene and replicate Libya and Iraq but what about the current ISIS under Labour, are we to take a back seat there?

 

[Meadows]

Got my postal vote in-hand (I'm away next week)...

Pretty stuck. The site that tells you who to vote for to keep the Tories out says to vote SNP as they're pretty much safe in this constituency. But I legitimately like the noises Labour have been making for the last couple of months, more than anything I've heard from them in decades.

So... a risky Labour vote that could let the Tories in or a tactical SNP vote to play it safe. Fuck

Spoiler

First Past the Post

.

To muddy the waters further, according to a 'policy/manifesto' app online, I agree with SNP's stances on things pretty much just as much as Labour's.

What do I do???

The only way FPTP will ever go away is if people just vote for who they want, eventually when the %s start to get crazy then the will may start to shift towards other methods.

If I were you I'd vote Labour, but it's really up to you.

 

[SomTervo]

The only way FPTP will ever go away is if people just vote for who they want, eventually when the %s start to get crazy then the will may start to shift towards other methods.

If I were you I'd vote Labour, but it's really up to you.

My gut is telling me Labour, too. Feels like I should go with them.

But then again, every single election I have ever participated in went the complete opposite direction of what I voted. Same with every single one of my peers. This whole democracy thing feels cursed.

Re FTPP, I have no hope or belief that it will ever go away. Westminster is a sick system. This is another reason I support Scottish independence. Representation up here is so much better than it is across the nation. Sooo I'd also like to vote SNP to keep the mandate for another indyref...

 

[Sordid]

What do I do???

I'm voting SNP. I like their policies and the only competition is the Tories so I want to make sure they don't get in too. If the situations were switched I'd vote Labour here to make sure they won even though I prefer the SNP though.

It's up to you though dude!

FPTP needs to go but for now this is how it is :/

Edit:

This is another reason I support Scottish independence.

Sounds like that makes the decision a bit easier? I keep getting Labour leaflets through my door saying they're very anti-independence. They've made an alliance with the Tories to run Aberdeenshire council up here which surprised me. Scottish Labour are a mess atm.

 

[jem0208]

Got my postal vote in-hand (I'm away next week)...

Pretty stuck. The site that tells you who to vote for to keep the Tories out says to vote SNP as they're pretty much safe in this constituency. But I legitimately like the noises Labour have been making for the last couple of months, more than anything I've heard from them in decades.

So... a risky Labour vote that could let the Tories in or a tactical SNP vote to play it safe. Fuck

Spoiler

First Past the Post

.

To muddy the waters further, according to a 'policy/manifesto' app online, I agree with SNP's stances on things pretty much just as much as Labour's.

What do I do???



The difference was he added that aggressive actions overseas are what leads to groups like ISIS forming and thus terrorism on our soil

Which is totally true and something Blair evidently never believed/understood

How close might it be between the SNP and the Tories?

If it's a proper safe seat I'd go for Labour, if there's a chance the Tories might get in then vote SNP.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think the recovery of Scottish Labour is looking like the last link in the chain that leads to a national Labour government. Scotland was the beating heart of Labour, providing it with passion, enthusiasm, intellectual weight, and genuine working class grounding for a century, since the days of Hardie. The loss of Scotland to the British left was a hammer blow. I can't pretend that Scottish Labour is great. They're not; they're tired and haggard. But that will only ever change when new blood comes. Someone has to take that step; I hope you'd consider yourself among that number.

 

[kmag]

Got my postal vote in-hand (I'm away next week)...

Pretty stuck. The site that tells you who to vote for to keep the Tories out says to vote SNP as they're pretty much safe in this constituency. But I legitimately like the noises Labour have been making for the last couple of months, more than anything I've heard from them in decades.

So... a risky Labour vote that could let the Tories in or a tactical SNP vote to play it safe. Fuck

Spoiler

First Past the Post

.

To muddy the waters further, according to a 'policy/manifesto' app online, I agree with SNP's stances on things pretty much just as much as Labour's.

What do I do???



The difference was he added that aggressive actions overseas are what leads to groups like ISIS forming and thus terrorism on our soil

Which is totally true and something Blair evidently never believed/understood

Until you can be sure that Scottish Labour is on board with Corbyn and free of the Blair McDougall cabal, I'm not sure that I'd ever be comfortable voting for them on the basis of Corbyn's policies. It's no concidence the only remaining Scottish Labour MP is virulently anti-Corbyn. The upper echelon's of Scottish Labour are still as New Labour as it gets. It's one the reasons for their implosion.

It'd really depend on the candidate.

 

[Audioboxer]

Got my postal vote in-hand (I'm away next week)...

Pretty stuck. The site that tells you who to vote for to keep the Tories out says to vote SNP as they're pretty much safe in this constituency. But I legitimately like the noises Labour have been making for the last couple of months, more than anything I've heard from them in decades.

So... a risky Labour vote that could let the Tories in or a tactical SNP vote to play it safe. Fuck

Spoiler

First Past the Post

.

To muddy the waters further, according to a 'policy/manifesto' app online, I agree with SNP's stances on things pretty much just as much as Labour's.

What do I do???



The difference was he added that aggressive actions overseas are what leads to groups like ISIS forming and thus terrorism on our soil

Which is totally true and something Blair evidently never believed/understood

Labour aren't getting back in Scotland and the risk we have up here is giving Tories seats due to the Unionists all rallying behind Conservative. There's probably an argument more than ever in Scotland to go SNP if it's about tactical voting. Instead of votes being split between Labour/Conservative meaning the SNP grab the seat and keep the Tories out, that unifying behind the Conservatives means it could end up Labour/SNP fighting each other and giving the Tories the seat.

Ultimately, tactical voting is tactical voting. I've always preferred to vote for what I believe in, for what that's worth. As that's independence in the current climate and for my future I'll always end up SNP/Greens. Labour, more importantly, Corbyn, "tactically" doing his Trident dance to combat the Tories "security risk for the country" nonsense only made me less likely to flip to Labour. Trident is one thing that needs to be booted to the moon asap.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

If folks want a slightly more Labour friendly story to do with Lib Dems today, Clegg was talking about the need to work with Labour after the election, if possible, to mount a proper opposition. (Note: not government)

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...tive-force-nick-clegg-wants-work-labour-after

As much as folks will cry out "hypocrisy!" or whatever, which judging by the response I got for sticking my neck out people did get passionate about, keeping the Tory majority low means LDs getting seats off them - and keeping a strong Remain voice in parliament means LDs doing well in Labour facing seats, too.

 

[SomTervo]

I'm voting SNP. I like their policies and the only competition is the Tories so I want to make sure they don't get in too. If the situations were switched I'd vote Labour here to make sure they won even though I prefer the SNP though.

It's up to you though dude!

FPTP needs to go but for now this is how it is :/

How close might it be between the SNP and the Tories?

If it's a proper safe seat I'd go for Labour, if there's a chance the Tories might get in then vote SNP.

Hmm, apparently Labour are 2nd here. According to tactical2017.com.

Maybe that is a worthwhile vote. Looks like the Tories won't be in either way.

Until you can be sure that Scottish Labour is on board with Corbyn and free of the Blair McDougall cabal, I'm not sure that I'd ever be comfortable voting for them on the basis of Corbyn's policies. It's no concidence the only remaining Scottish Labour MP is virulently anti-Corbyn. The upper echelon's of Scottish Labour are still as New Labour as it gets. It's one the reasons for their implosion.

It'd really depend on the candidate.

I never quite got that contention - so the candidate will always be Scottish Labour up here?

Yep, not really interested in providing Scottish Labour with a vote - but at the same time I know a couple of the candidates (elsewhere from my constituency) and they're good, progressive folk.

Labour aren't getting back in Scotland and the risk we have up here is giving Tories seats due to the Unionists all rallying behind Conservative. There's probably an argument more than ever in Scotland to go SNP if it's about tactical voting. Instead of votes being split between Labour/Conservative meaning the SNP grab the seat and keep the Tories out, that unifying behind the Conservatives means it could end up Labour/SNP fighting each other and giving the Tories the seat.

Ultimately, tactical voting is tactical voting. I've always preferred to vote for what I believe in, for what that's worth. As that's independence in the current climate and for my future I'll always end up SNP/Greens. Labour, more importantly, Corbyn, "tactically" doing his Trident dance to the Tories "security risk for the country" nonsense only made me less likely to flip to Labour. Trident is one thing that needs to be booted to the moon asap.

You're right, but right where I am it looks like it's an SNP/Labour race so I can't do much wrong going either way.

 

[twofoldd]

Neither of the two main parties “has set out an honest set of choices” to the public over their tax and spending plans, the Institute of Fiscal Studies has said.

In its assessment of the Conservative and Labour party manifestos, the thinktank said neither addressed the long-term challenges facing the UK.

IFS makes damning assessment of Tory and Labour manifestos
- https://www.theguardian.com/busines...spending-plans-ifs-general-election-manifesto

Doesn't look good for either party.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I can't seem to find a video of the speech anywhere.

The repurposed Blair quote was nice and sly in there.

edit: 'protecting this country require us to be strong against terrorism and strong against the causes of terrorism'. for those who missed it.

That's a good shout! Well spotted.

 

[Pandy]

Until you can be sure that Scottish Labour is on board with Corbyn and free of the Blair McDougall cabal, I'm not sure that I'd ever be comfortable voting for them on the basis of Corbyn's policies. It's no concidence the only remaining Scottish Labour MP is virulently anti-Corbyn. The upper echelon's of Scottish Labour are still as New Labour as it gets. It's one the reasons for their implosion.

It'd really depend on the candidate.

I support this.

Look at the policies, but look at the candidates too. You'll be happier about casting your vote when you know more about the people you are voting on.

EDIT: I see on the BBC that the SNP and Greens have come out broadly in support of Corbyn's speech. Haven't seen the detail yet.

 

[gun_haver]

My gut is telling me Labour, too. Feels like I should go with them.

But then again, every single election I have ever participated in went the complete opposite direction of what I voted. Same with every single one of my peers. This whole democracy thing feels cursed.

Re FTPP, I have no hope or belief that it will ever go away. Westminster is a sick system. This is another reason I support Scottish independence. Representation up here is so much better than it is across the nation. Sooo I'd also like to vote SNP to keep the mandate for another indyref...

I considered voting Labour but then I just thought how much I would be annoyed if the Tories got more than 1 or 2 MPs in Scotland and the best way to stop that from happening this time is vote for the SNP, it seems.

If I was anywhere else in the UK than Scotland, I'd be voting for Labour. There isn't much point to it here, it only splits the vote between SNP and Labour, giving the Tories more of a chance. In a scenario where Labour were anywhere close to forming a government, they could do a coalition with the SNP anyway, and if not, they'd vote the same in many areas.

 

[Audioboxer]

Hmm, apparently Labour are 2nd here. According to tactical2017.com.

Maybe that is a worthwhile vote. Looks like the Tories won't be in either way.



I never quite got that contention - so the candidate will always be Scottish Labour up here?

Yep, not really interested in providing Scottish Labour with a vote - but at the same time I know a couple of the candidates (elsewhere from my constituency) and they're good, progressive folk.



You're right, but right where I am it looks like it's an SNP/Labour race so I can't do much wrong going either way.

Probably not, although I'll be out with my axe if you are posting in a few weeks to say the Tories got the seat

I considered voting Labour but then I just thought how much I would be annoyed if the Tories got more than 1 or 2 MPs in Scotland and the best way to stop that from happening this time is vote for the SNP, it seems.

If I was anywhere else in the UK than Scotland, I'd be voting for Labour. There isn't much point to it here, it only splits the vote between SNP and Labour, giving the Tories more of a chance. In a scenario where Labour were anywhere close to forming a government, they could do a coalition with the SNP anyway, and if not, they'd vote the same in many areas.

Another thing that pisses me off, constant hand slapping away of any coalitions because ultimately Labour are as strictly a Unionist party as the Tories. To the point where to even be seen working with the SNP means the papers and the Tories start the smearing of "Labour support the SNP getting independence". Politics in this country are so heavily based on smearing, scaring and frightening Labour will never work with the SNP even if they see eye to eye. As above, even Corbyn is having to simmer his anti-nuclear stances to chase votes in the rUK all listening to May screaming Corbyn is a security risk and Trident is the golden goose egg.

The only thing I even saw a hint of "working together" from Labour Scotland the SNP was bashing Davidson over the rape clause. Ultimately, Labour in Scotland was decimated for being "Tory-lite", as in, because 90% of Labours seats are in England the whole party has to try and appeal to English Conservative voters, and that means Labour Scotland not distancing itself from Labour rUK. If they do that they'll then get smeared for being in the SNPs pockets.

Scotland is pretty much a "lost cause" for the UK. Even with the seats the SNP lose, they'll still by far be voted the majority party. Enough of the people up here are just disillusioned with UK politics on the whole. Scottish Labour could mount a comeback if they appealed more to those disillusioned, but they can't, any slight move to the left/towards where the SNP stand and it's papers having a field day saying Labour won't protect the Union/Labour are the SNP lapdogs.