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[Deleted member 231381]

That's some atrocious finagling of the numbers, Huw. Labour is a much bigger party than the Liberal Democrats, obviously 20% of Labour's vote is more than 77% of the Liberal Democrats. But that's not how voter swing works. Because Labour has more voters, it takes significantly more resources to be able to connect with all of them. The fairest comparison is looking at the remain share as a fraction of total share - and on that figure, Labour performed almost identically to the Liberal Democrats.

Don't get a job in spin, you're not good enough at it.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

That's some seriously tortured maths to try and make your team look better.

Not trying to make my team look better, just demonstrating scale. I do think BSIE would have benefitted from Labour's involvement. Corbyn was unwilling to share a platform, and had Alan Johnson run a separate and lower profile campaign.

But hey, had 18,000 votes more gone the LD's way in 2015 in the right seats, there would have been no referendum - parliament would be hung and the referendum would have been negotiated away. So I guess it is our fault for losing so hard at the end of the day.

 

[Izuna]

After the marijuana stunt I don't need any more embarassment as a LD voter.

 

[jem0208]

After the marijuana stunt I don't need any more embarassment as a LD voter.

Marijuana stunt?

 

[liquidtmd]

Lord, May talking right now

"Corbyn is not prepared for Brexit talks"

And you are????? Whilst at the same time in the same speech still running out the line the EU are adopting 'an aggressive stance' against us??

We are so so screwed

 

[frankie_baby]

After the marijuana stunt I don't need any more embarassment as a LD voter.

You mean the marjuana legalisation policy that the majority of the population supports?

 

[Garjon]

I am only going of anecdotes when I saw that Corbyn definitely helped leave get some votes.

The "he secretly wants Brexit" was passed around more then a few social circles. Did he do a good job to dispel that? No. The most Corbyn did was say that Brexit would be bad under the Conservatives.

And that silly sausage doesn't realise that's precisely what he let happen by no outright we dressing his voters that it is a bad idea.

I'd say the main reason why so many more working class people voted Brexit than expected was because the Tories basically hogged every second of limelight under the Remain campaign and used it to waffle on about emergency budgets, house price collapses and so on, to the point where it seemed like Remain was just pulling things out of their arse; as a result, people just stopped believing everything they read from the campaign, even if it was fully backed up. You could argue that Corbyn should have done more to make it seem like a cross-party alliance but the lion's share of the blame has got to go to the Tory side of the campaign. Also the fact that Remain campaign refused to even acknowledge the reasonable arguments against free movement, globalisation etc let alone provide arguments against them.

 

[Chinner]

Lord, May talking right now

"Corbyn is not prepared for Brexit talks"

And you are????? Whilst at the same time in the same speech still running out the line the EU are adopting 'an aggressive stance' against us??

We are so so screwed

Got to get the narrative out there when we walk away with no arrangement which hugely costs the UK.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

You mean the marjuana legalisation policy that the majority of the population supports?

If only that were true! Only about a third of voters support legalisation. However the world is clearly moving towards it being legal - the hope is that by the next GE the conversation will have moved to the point where it is a popular policy.

The current argument against Cannabis is that is causes psychosis in some young people who are already at risk. The fact that alcohol does cause severe damage when abused by children of all ages is immaterial.

 

[Izuna]

You mean the marjuana legalisation policy that the majority of the population supports?

The majority of the population?

Point is, I doubt it had anyone jumping ship. Net result was probably more abandoning it.

 

[Meadows]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

A gaffe at a time where he really should not be having one.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

Honestly, I'm just finding these a bit worn out at this point. I like my policies well thought-through and costed, and I like my parties to have lots of policies. That means having an awful lot of figures floating around which no ordinary person is going to be able to remember perfectly all the time. I don't get why it's some massive 'gotcha' if a politician can't recite a figure that they've nevertheless provided in public documents. Abbott's gaffe was painful because she just kept trying to plough on and wouldn't own up to it. Corbyn's straight up said here 'I don't have that figure on me right now'. That's... fine.

EDIT: I don't know when this memory puritanism started, either, but it's quite recent. I vividly remember at least one Blair interview where he said 'I don't remember off the top of my head', turned to his aide, the aide wrote a figure down, and he replied, and it wasn't considered some huge scandal. I think Cameron started this as way to annoy Miliband knowing the press would run with it.

 

[Izuna]

Also the fact that Remain campaign refused to even acknowledge the reasonable arguments against free movement, globalisation etc let alone provide arguments against them.

Wait a second, what are these?

Because IIRC, Cameron did his absolute best to get additional special deals with regard to immigration and sending back criminals so we didn't have to fit them in our jail cells.

Anything against free movement comes with Hard Brexit. None of it was "reasonable". Perhaps you meant to say "address" instead of "acknowledge".

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

Sounds like Labour to me.

edit: read the headline not the text, he got the actual figure in the end. That's a good thing not a bad thing...

 

[D4Danger]

Corbyn takes 2 minutes to confirm some numbers and the BBC try and turn it into a big story

Meanwhile the Tory manifesto still sits uncosted and nobody cares

 

[liquidtmd]

Honestly, I'm just finding these a bit worn out at this point. I like my policies well thought-through and costed, and I like my parties to have lots of policies. That means having an awful lot of figures floating around which no ordinary person is going to be able to remember perfectly all the time. I don't get why it's some massive 'gotcha' if a politician can't recite a figure that they've nevertheless provided in public documents. Abbott's gaffe was painful because she just kept trying to plough on and wouldn't own up to it. Corbyn's straight up said here 'I don't have that figure on me right now'. That's... fine.

Yeah, this.

It's a gaffe, but not really one I have an issue with per se. He should have known it, but he owned it immediately and said 'let me get that'.

Abbott's was infinitely more ghastly and stupid.

 

[Uzzy]

Lord, May talking right now

"Corbyn is not prepared for Brexit talks"

And you are????? Whilst at the same time in the same speech still running out the line the EU are adopting 'an aggressive stance' against us??

We are so so screwed

Someone needs to ask her what 'no deal' actually means. No deal on trade, on security, on EU citizens rights? Are we going to leave EURATOM without a deal on transitional arrangements, throwing our nuclear policy into disarray?

 

[Rodelero]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

How is this a holy shit moment? God damn this election is making morons of us all.

He doesn't know the number off the top of his head. It is one of probably hundreds of numbers he could be drawn on about his manifesto at any given time. He certainly doesn't want to say the wrong number, in case he is drawn into some Abbott style fiasco. He therefore tries to get the right figure for the presenter. This is then some massive thing?

Fuck the BBC, frankly, for making anything of this. It's not even a gaffe. It's literally nothing.

"This was on a par, or possibly even worse, than Diane Abbott getting into a pickle on the cost of Labour's policing pledges." That's a quote from Norman Smith, the assistant political editor for the BBC. What the fuck is he talking about? How partisan can you get.

 

[PJV3]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

I don't expect them to remember everything off the top of their heads at all times, they are human after all.

 

[JonathanEx]

Ahhh well done Corbz.

1. He should probably know the amount of the policy that is their flagship one of the day.
2. But to be honest having to look it up isn't that bad a thing, if you wanted perfect recall you'd ask a computer, that really doesn't reflect on the ability to trust the party with money, challenging him was fine but suggesting that was a bit unnecessary
3. He completely fucked up dealing with it and tied to bluff it and wasn't good about doing that

 

[hohoXD123]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

Oh god, that's not good. It's fair enough if he wanted to look it up instead of making up a number and looking even worse, but he really didn't handle that well. Gutter press/Tories rejoice.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Corbyn takes 2 minutes to confirm some numbers and the BBC try and turn it into a big story

Meanwhile the Tory manifesto still sits uncosted and nobody cares

The most damning thing of all. Why isn't anyone asking them for numbers but are happy doing gotcha cartwheels when Corbyn can't remember a random number off the top of his head?

 

[Lagamorph]

I am only going of anecdotes when I saw that Corbyn definitely helped leave get some votes.

The "he secretly wants Brexit" was passed around more then a few social circles. Did he do a good job to dispel that? No. The most Corbyn did was say that Brexit would be bad under the Conservatives.

And that silly sausage doesn't realise that's precisely what he let happen by no outright we dressing his voters that it is a bad idea.

Corbyn wanting Brexit was absolutely not a secret. He's been saying it for 30 years.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I don't expect them to remember everything off the top of their heads at all times, they are human after all.

Same. Complete nothingburger of a story. Yawn.

 

[King_Moc]

Hoooooly shit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520

The entire tory manifesto is uncosted....

 

[Mindwipe]

It's fascinating that this election comes down to a slugfest between a once invincible warship, now with its torpedo tubes destroyed and afire, and a Militant tugboat dragging along the formerly berthed wreck of New Labour.

After this election the war for the final fate of Labour will begin. There are too many Labour MPs who should be sitting in an alliance with the LDs - that will ultimately be the movement that defeats the Tories, not a left-wing Labour one. One win for a centre-left alliance, one act to change the voting laws, and the Tories are blocked from ever returning a majority ever again.

The majority of Labour MPs you describe aren't liberal, and aren't very interested in a voting system that doesn't grant them authoritarian levels of power when their electoral roll on the dice comes up, at least to their minds.

This election should be an easy win for Labour. Cooper, Burnham or Kendall all would have beaten May. :/

I don't think that's remotely true. May is hopeless, but those three couldn't even win a Labour leadership election. The idea they'd have won a general one is fanciful.

The PLP has a talent black hole. They should have a better prospect that Corbyn. But they don't.

 

[Izuna]

Corbyn takes 2 minutes to confirm some numbers and the BBC try and turn it into a big story

Meanwhile the Tory manifesto still sits uncosted and nobody cares

Really?

I didn't even bother looking it up. I think "nobody cares" because everyone thinks Brexit is the end all to all budget discussions.

 

[Uzzy]

The most damning thing of all. Why isn't anyone asking them for numbers but are happy doing gotcha cartwheels when Corbyn can't remember a random number off the top of his head?

The Tories have a great reputation for financial competency, so they get away with all kinds of things.

 

[Meadows]

You're all saying this isn't a story, it isn't to you guys because you're Labour supporters already, but this really reinforces the idea that they are a bit clueless when it comes to finances. We saw their polls dip after the Abbott gaffe and this is similarly bad (on the day of a policy launch and it's the leader of the party).

The fact we're this close to the election means this could hurt them.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Someone had a go at Farron on 5 Live this morning over a referendum on the final deal.

For the sake of the country, I really hope we are wrong on the notion that the deal we are apparently going to get is always going to be worse. Otherwise when the public comes down on the Tories like a tonne of bricks and they go through with it anyway, we'll be proved right but too late to prevent the job centre queues. :/

And no, Corbyn not knowing the figure is not a major story. "One second, I have a lot of policies to talk about and I want to make I am sure I am right on this number... *unfolds a small paper with notes on* ah yes, the exact number is..."

Scrabbling around on an iPad makes you look a bif naff.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

You're all saying this isn't a story, it isn't to you guys because you're Labour supporters already, but this really reinforces the idea that they are a bit clueless when it comes to finances. We saw their polls dip after the Abbott gaffe and this is similarly bad (on the day of a policy launch and it's the leader of the party).

The fact we're this close to the election means this could hurt them.

You take that back goddamn it

 

[PJV3]

Same. Complete nothingburger of a story. Yawn.

It's like trying to trap a politician because he doesn't know every single world leader, a bit of fun for journalists really.

 

[liquidtmd]

You're all saying this isn't a story, it isn't to you guys because you're Labour supporters already,

LOL

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Abbott's was infinitely more ghastly and stupid.

Diane Abbott is the single biggest liability for Labour, I think, and a reminder that the revolt actually did hurt Labour's prospects badly - Burnham was the shadow Home Secretary prior to deciding to make his resignation coincide with the poor local election results. My opinion of Burnham isn't especially strong, but I'll credit him with being a much better performer than Abbott, at the very least.

 

[Spaghetti]

That's not a gotcha moment. Not in the slightest.

The full body of the text is maddening in how the BBC tries to compare it to an Abbott moment when taking a moment to confirm the numbers is the exact opposite.

 

[Garjon]

Wait a second, what are these?

Because IIRC, Cameron did his absolute best to get additional special deals with regard to immigration and sending back criminals so we didn't have to fit them in our jail cells.

Anything against free movement comes with Hard Brexit. None of it was "reasonable". Perhaps you meant to say "address" instead of "acknowledge".

To say there are no arguments against free movement is a ridiculous statement, whether or not free movement is overall a good thing. Remain just did nothing to allay these fears, instead banging on with scare stories. There was little to no engagement with working class people to do something about the overriding anti-EU sentiment in many poorer regions.

Cameron compromised on almost all of his 'special deals' and in many cases only managed to get promises for future reform. Regardless, this does not refute the argument that the Tories royally ballsed up the Remain campaign.

 

[Izuna]

you're Labour supporters already

Is there some "GAF is Labour" thing?

 

[Zaph]

You're all saying this isn't a story, it isn't to you guys because you're Labour supporters already, but this really reinforces the idea that they are a bit clueless when it comes to finances. We saw their polls dip after the Abbott gaffe and this is similarly bad (on the day of a policy launch and it's the leader of the party).

The fact we're this close to the election means this could hurt them.

Abbott came across utterly away with the fairies on national tv, this really isn't that. I doubt it'll pick up even close to the traction. Not really a "Hoooooly shit" story

 

[frankie_baby]

If only that were true! Only about a third of voters support legalisation. However the world is clearly moving towards it being legal - the hope is that by the next GE the conversation will have moved to the point where it is a popular policy.

The current argument against Cannabis is that is causes psychosis in some young people who are already at risk. The fact that alcohol does cause severe damage when abused by children of all ages is immaterial.

Oh sorry 47% for compared to 39% against, thats near enough most

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ugh-licensed-shops-poll-reveals-a6976796.html

 

[QuicheFontaine]

It's like trying to trap a politician because he doesn't know every single world leader, a bit of fun for journalists really.

Yeah, those are always fun too.

Corbs tendency to be fairly short / snippy with journos is well known and priced in at this point. Hell, I would probably react the same way as him a lot of the time - it's perfectly normal. It just looks bad in this slick media age, which is why most politicians have learned to adapt with stock phrases, deflections and vacuous non-answers that nevertheless get them to move on.

 

[Rodelero]

You're all saying this isn't a story, it isn't to you guys because you're Labour supporters already, but this really reinforces the idea that they are a bit clueless when it comes to finances. We saw their polls dip after the Abbott gaffe and this is similarly bad (on the day of a policy launch and it's the leader of the party).

Excuse me? I've never voted Labour in my life, and I'm fairly convinced I'll be able to say that come June the 9th too.

The fact we're this close to the election means this could hurt them.

If this has any effect whatsoever on the election, it is a damning indictment of how manipulative our publicly funded broadcaster has become in supporting at best the status quo and at worse the Conservative party.

 

[PJV3]

You're all saying this isn't a story, it isn't to you guys because you're Labour supporters already, but this really reinforces the idea that they are a bit clueless when it comes to finances. We saw their polls dip after the Abbott gaffe and this is similarly bad (on the day of a policy launch and it's the leader of the party).

The fact we're this close to the election means this could hurt them.

I'm not saying it's good or not a story, it just isn't WOW to me.

 

[Chinner]

Definetly gaffe but will probably be forgotten by the end of the day.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Is there some "GAF is Labour" thing?

I mean, GAF is very Labour. We're predominantly in the 18-30 age group, so you'd expect nearly twice as many Labour as Conservative voters, and that's before even considering that GAF's educational levels are above the norm.

 

[Visualante2]

While I agree there are a lot of policies to remember, he was being interviewed for women's hour. He should have expected a certain range of questions (equal pay, child care, pension age) and had the numbers to hand.

But the interviewer and subsequent article is scummy for judging him on his ability to provide the numbers rather judging him on the numbers.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Oh sorry 47% for compared to 39% against, thats near enough most

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ugh-licensed-shops-poll-reveals-a6976796.html

Oh cool, not seen that figure. I think when Yougov asked on it last public support was at about 30%.

GAF is also very Labour, yes. It was probably quite Lib Dem before 2010.

 

[Theonik]

Corbyn takes 2 minutes to confirm some numbers and the BBC try and turn it into a big story

Meanwhile the Tory manifesto still sits uncosted and nobody cares

'Because the conservatives are good at the economy, everyone knows that.' - Some Tory journalist.

 

[PJV3]

While I agree there are a lot of policies to remember, he was being interviewed for women's hour. He should have expected a certain range of questions (equal pay, child care, pension age) and had the numbers to hand.

But the interviewer and subsequent article is scummy for judging him on his ability to provide the numbers rather judging him on the numbers.

Didn't the interviewer give him a bit of stick for saying childcare was a woman's issue?

He should have said he didn't know the figure and dressed it up as a feminist statement.

 

[Izuna]

I mean, GAF is very Labour. We're predominantly in the 18-30 age group, so you'd expect nearly twice as many Labour as Conservative voters, and that's before even considering that GAF's educational levels are above the norm.

Seems to make sense

@source: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/

note: Class: No longer a good predictor of voting behaviour

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's not 34 as that was during a lower patch for Labour. I have it off current polls at about 39/40 as the crossover point.