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[Dougald]

That's another problem.

I live in a Lib Dem area and vote for them. The campaign locally is to actually stop building on green belts and to protect the parks countryside and walkways. Make less strain on the hospitals and roads. Some terrace houses need to be torn down to widen roads near me, they're huge bottle necks.

UK has the smallest homes in Europe already. Quality of life is important. I think people need a bit of space. There's even a affluent area near me with big old detached homes, they squeezed in 5 homes last year on this patch of land amongst these large homes built in the 1930s and 1960s. Not only do they look odd, two out of the five have already moved out. There's no privacy or space compared to the homes from the 30s or 60s. You're paying 500k for a 150k new build experience. The novelty of a newly fitted home wears off soon.

3 years ago they did the same down my road. Left the original house in place, and built *twelve* homes where the garden used to be, then sold them at nearly £500k a pop when I had just bought mine for 300. Mental.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I'm on Team May! #crushthesaboteurs #strongnstablehand

 

[Greddleok]

It saddens me that these guys have a pretty much guaranteed win.

I was having a conversation with my girlfriend from a...relatively war torn...eastern European country. She could not understand why, after hearing the terrible deal we'll get for Brexit, the prime minister, or even Queen, can't just say "fuck it, we're staying."

I was trying to explain that it doesn't matter what's best for the country, it doesn't matter how many lies we were told about how good it'd be to leave the EU, the people voted, and the majority wanted to leave.

She still didn't get it, and to be honest, neither do I any more.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

Simpleton question here, how much of these new build house prices are down to greed or actual cost of development ?

 

[chromatic9]

I'll never understand the Welsh voting. We'll see in 10 years how it turns out. I can't see the Tories giving two fucks. I'm old enough to remember how they were ignored before. it's a different world now but I'm still really sceptical. Hopefully we can look at what the EU did for Wales and Farming and copy paste it. For the UK to survive we need more infrastructure around the UK.

 

[sohois]

Simpleton question here, how much of these new build house prices are down to greed or actual cost of development ?

The economy has not been twisted or broken. There are lots of houses on the market, if new builds were really overpriced they simply wouldn't sell. If housebuilders were making large profit margins it would be reflected in the returns, but they don't have abnormal profits.

 

[*Splinter]

Simpleton question here, how much of these new build house prices are down to greed or actual cost of development ?

They cost what people are willing/able to pay. I don't think "greed" is a useful way of framing it, unless overpriced houses are sitting unsold, or the supply of new houses is being intentionally restrained.

 

[JonathanEx]

Fantastic, now I'll never be able to watch 'The A-Team' without thinking about Theresa May.

If I worked on a topical TV politics comedy show, I'd currently be editing The A Team titles to be The May Team, ta for that

I would also have done an edit of 'Theresa May on The Chase' in which she answers every question with Strong and Stable Leadership


Honestly it's a wonder I wasn't in charge of the Nightly Show

 

[Zaph]

3 years ago they did the same down my road. Left the original house in place, and built *twelve* homes where the garden used to be, then sold them at nearly £500k a pop when I had just bought mine for 300. Mental.

I wouldn't mind the house sizes in new builds that much, but these firms do nothing to make the smaller proportions more liveable even though the build cost itself is a fraction of the sale price. The ceilings are so low. The windows are a bare minimum - both size and quantity. All because they know they'll sell regardless.

After living in Victorians most my life, I walked into a new build and felt so claustrophobic I decided to wait and save for a while longer.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

They cost what people are willing/able to pay. I don't think "greed" is a useful way of framing it, unless overpriced houses are sitting unsold, or the supply of new houses is being intentionally restrained.

The economy has not been twisted or broken. There are lots of houses on the market, if new builds were really overpriced they simply wouldn't sell. If housebuilders were making large profit margins it would be reflected in the returns, but they don't have abnormal profits.

True enough, but people really do need houses, whatever they cost. Isn't it kind of like whacking the price of food up and going "Look, people are still buying it! Clearly the market dictates that this loaf of bread is worth £10"?

Edit:

Generous indeed, I felt like someone was trying to buy my vote when it was announced. Especially as, IIRC, the day it was announced there were also cuts to some other benefits (I don't remember what exactly). Helping young people buy their own homes is good, doing it at the expense of those more needy is not ok in my book.

I imagine a 5% deposit also leaves you in a heap of debt? Although I don't remember exactly how the scheme works.

The ISA was a separate thing to the HTB scheme (the 5% thing). It was just an ISA that paid out 25% on your savings if you withdrew it while purchasing a house. There was actually a kerfuffle because people thought you could use the bonus money for the deposit, when it turned out you actually couldn't.

 

[Theonik]

They cost what people are willing/able to pay. I don't think "greed" is a useful way of framing it, unless overpriced houses are sitting unsold, or the supply of new houses is being intentionally restrained.

I mean, the later is true, at least in London but the form it's taken is housing being instead bought up as investment properties and as capital stores for investors. It effect this means that supply is restrained by these investors.

Moreover, government schemes like help to buy and similar programs end up not helping, simply because they enable the prices to continue in their upward trend. Think of a what happened with sub-prime mortgages in the US. By making it easier for people to buy overpriced properties you are only making their prices even higher.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

The economy has not been twisted or broken. There are lots of houses on the market, if new builds were really overpriced they simply wouldn't sell. If housebuilders were making large profit margins it would be reflected in the returns, but they don't have abnormal profits.

They cost what people are willing/able to pay. I don't think "greed" is a useful way of framing it, unless overpriced houses are sitting unsold, or the supply of new houses is being intentionally restrained.

Thanks. Like you say, despite my looking at these homes as shoeboxes with a hefty price tag, people are still buying them up, and fast. My brother recently got one, and going around the area with these crushed in houses I cant help but think how the hell they are priced the way they are. Seemingly everyone has really nice flash motors sat outside too ..... feels like a million miles away from what I could get.

 

[Dougald]

I wouldn't mind the house sizes in new builds that much, but these firms do nothing to make the smaller proportions more liveable even though the build cost itself is a fraction of the sale price. The ceilings are so low. The windows are a bare minimum - both size and quantity. All because they know they'll sell regardless.

After living in Victorians most my life, I walked into a new build and felt so claustrophobic I decided to wait and save for a while longer.

My place may be over 60 years old and have the worlds ugliest baby pink bathroom suite that I'm still saving to remove, but at least it's a decent size

 

[D4Danger]

The economy has not been twisted or broken. There are lots of houses on the market, if new builds were really overpriced they simply wouldn't sell. If housebuilders were making large profit margins it would be reflected in the returns, but they don't have abnormal profits.

Have you been in a coma for the past 20 years?

The housing bubble would've destroyed the global economy if governments around the world didn't step in. The entire market is a sham.

 

[sohois]

True enough, but people really do need houses, whatever they cost. Isn't it kind of like whacking the price of food up and going "Look, people are still buying it! Clearly the market dictates that this loaf of bread is worth £10"?

Edit:

The ISA was a separate thing to the HTB scheme (the 5% thing). It was just an ISA that paid out 25% on your savings if you withdrew it while purchasing a house. There was actually a kerfuffle because people thought you could use the bonus money for the deposit, when it turned out you actually couldn't.

People don't need new build houses though. And plenty of the new builds are bought by investors who expect them to increase in value or give a rent return that is greater than the risk free rate, if such people felt they were overpriced they have plenty of alternatives to invest their money

Edit: @D4, the original question regarded the price of new build houses and if developers were driving up the prices through greed or something, as new builds have quite a premium over other types of houses. It had nothing to do with the housing market as a whole.

 

[*Splinter]

True enough, but people really do need houses, whatever they cost. Isn't it kind of like whacking the price of food up and going "Look, people are still buying it! Clearly the market dictates that this loaf of bread is worth £10"?

Yeah but if you try and sell a loaf of bread for £10 you won't get many takers (unless prices are being artificially inflated which is what I was referring to with restricted supply).

My post wasn't very clear, but my point was that if prices are too high then the blame needs to be with whoever is responsible for not building enough, not simply "greedy builders".

The ISA was a separate thing to the HTB scheme (the 5% thing). It was just an ISA that paid out 25% on your savings if you withdrew it while purchasing a house. There was actually a kerfuffle because people thought you could use the bonus money for the deposit, when it turned out you actually couldn't.

Oh yeah that's what I was thinking of. I was interested in the ISA but looked into it too late (there is a limit to how much you can save each month, needs a minimum of 8 months saving or a couple of years to be really worthwhile). Edit: this is wrong! 3 months


On the subject of shoeboxes: I'm looking at it as a smaller home takes less time to clean

 

[Bleepey]

Could be down to the policy we get with work.

Well there it is. Just like the US!

 

[StayDead]

It saddens me that these guys have a pretty much guaranteed win.

I was having a conversation with my girlfriend from a...relatively war torn...eastern European country. She could not understand why, after hearing the terrible deal we'll get for Brexit, the prime minister, or even Queen, can't just say "fuck it, we're staying."

I was trying to explain that it doesn't matter what's best for the country, it doesn't matter how many lies we were told about how good it'd be to leave the EU, the people voted, and the majority wanted to leave.

She still didn't get it, and to be honest, neither do I any more.

The people voted in a non legally binding opinion poll. That's why you shouldn't "get it" and why she's completely right.

Populism has left us with no choice. The tabloids who are facist and have wanted out of the EU since we joined have won. Common sense and reasoning is no longer present in Parliament. That's why they voted AGAINST amendments that would give Parliament the final say. You know, our sovereign parliament that should have a say in everything.

 

[Kotetsu534]

The ISA was a separate thing to the HTB scheme (the 5% thing). It was just an ISA that paid out 25% on your savings if you withdrew it while purchasing a house. There was actually a kerfuffle because people thought you could use the bonus money for the deposit, when it turned out you actually couldn't.

If anyone's wondering how H2B ISA and LISA interact Martin Lewis has a great blog on it here. I'm taking advantage of them both using his advice.

 

[JonathanEx]

BBC announce their debates.

1. Mishal Husain hosting the main BBC One debate, 7 podiums, for "leading figures from Conservative, Labour, LibDem, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Green Party and UKIP". Saying they won't empty chair - but aren't necessarily expecting the PM, which is why it's other figures.

2. Two QT specials, same format as last time, May/Corbyz to face same audience. Four main party leaders on this, the other is Farron / Sturgen. I KNOW, NOT UKIP. I AM SHOCKED.

3. Radio 1 debate with some people, also on BBC One.


Edit: I have also just seen the most important thing. Corbyn and May to be interviewed on THE ONE SHOW. May and her husband will attempt to be human tomorrow.

More details here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/la...ffice&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=corporate

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'll never understand the Welsh voting. We'll see in 10 years how it turns out. I can't see the Tories giving two fucks. I'm old enough to remember how they were ignored before. it's a different world now but I'm still really sceptical. Hopefully we can look at what the EU did for Wales and Farming and copy paste it. For the UK to survive we need more infrastructure around the UK.

Here's how to explain the Welsh voting.

Broadly speaking, the main benefit of the EU is the free trade area. A free trade area benefits parts of the UK economy which are comparatively advantaged, and harms those which are comparatively disadvantaged - or put another way, Britain is really good at financial services and a free trade area boosts the amount of financial services we produce, bit we're not so great at manufacturing these days and a free trade area might reduce the amount we manufacture because we buy from abroad. On net, we gain, but that's on net - the impact varies from region to region and industry to industry.

In return for the free trade area, Britain is a net funding contributor. If we left, it is true that we would have more resources to spend elsewhere. Yes, the EU did give money to Wales... but once we leave, there will be more money to give to Wales.

Now think about what type of economy Wales has, and what being in a free trade area means for that part. It's not a winner. Wales trades less with the EU than any other part of the UK except (strangely) Scotland. The main benefit of being in the EU for Wales was EU funding, except Wales could get more funding from Westminster if we weren't in the EU.

Of course, this is a Westminster problem. The UK government, both Labour and Conservatives, simply failed to redistribute the gains of free trade winners to free trade losers. London has been fed and fed and fed, while Wales starved. But of course... if neither party seems interested in addressing that, at least if we get to leave the FTA, deindustrialised regions might see some improvement, even if on net, the UK gets worse. Because, bluntly put, they don't care about on net when London gets 8 and they get 2; they'd rather have the world where London gets 5 and they get 3.

 

[Biggzy]

Here's how to explain the Welsh voting.

Broadly speaking, the main benefit of the EU is the free trade area. A free trade area benefits parts of the UK economy which are comparatively advantaged, and harms those which are comparatively disadvantaged - or put another way, Britain is really good at financial services and a free trade area boosts the amount of financial services we produce, bit we're not so great at manufacturing these days and a free trade area might reduce the amount we manufacture because we buy from abroad. On net, we gain, but that's on net - the impact varies from region to region and industry to industry.

In return for the free trade area, Britain is a net funding contributor. If we left, it is true that we would have more resources to spend elsewhere. Yes, the EU did give money to Wales... but once we leave, there will be more money to give to Wales.

Now think about what type of economy Wales has, and what being in a free trade area means for that part. It's not a winner. Wales trades less with the EU than any other part of the UK except (strangely) Scotland. The main benefit of being in the EU for Wales was EU funding, except Wales could get more funding from Westminster if we weren't in the EU.

Of course, this is a Westminster problem. The UK government, both Labour and Conservatives, simply failed to redistribute the gains of free trade winners to free trade losers. London has been fed and fed and fed, while Wales starved. But of course... if neither party seems interested in addressing that, at least if we get to leave the FTA, deindustrialised regions might see some improvement, even if on net, the UK gets worse. Because, bluntly put, they don't care about on net when London gets 8 and they get 2; they'd rather have the world where London gets 5 and they get 3.

This is all well and good but the Conservatives have repeatedly said that they want the UK to be a world leader in free trade.

 

[PJV3]

This is all well and good but the Conservatives have repeatedly said that they want the UK to be a world leader in free trade.

Yeah, I'm not sure how things are going to improve, the rest of the world is still there competing for business etc. Or that the mainly English conservative party is suddenly going to distribute the wealth more evenly, we will see very soon.

 

[Goodlife]

but once we leave, there will be more money to give to Wales.

except Wales could get more funding from Westminster if we weren't in the EU.

.

Wales got a load of cash from the EU because of objective 1 funding.
It was a non-political, formula based decision to give that money.

The is no way, in the world, that any UK government (especially not the Tories) are going to keep that level of funding to Wales.
No chance in hell

 

[StayDead]

except Wales could get more funding from Westminster if we weren't in the EU.

This will never happen.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is all well and good but the Conservatives have repeatedly said that they want the UK to be a world leader in free trade.

That's pretty unlikely at this point, to be blunt. It'll take up to a decade to get anything together even reasonably okay with more than a few other major economies. It's just Empirewank.

 

[PJV3]

I'm just expecting a lot more austerity after they prop up the economy for a few years in the transition period.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Wales got a load of cash from the EU because of objective 1 funding.
It was a non-political, formula based decision to give that money.

The is no way, in the world, that any UK government (especially not the Tories) are going to keep that level of funding to Wales.
No chance in hell

Right, but I don't think this class are going to vote Conservative in the long-run. Once the Brexit deed is done, they can put their vote elsewhere. But if Brexit isn't done, they don't feel like they'll get this attention at all. Too often, narrow wins for the status quo have been taken as a symbol that everything is fine and nothing needs to be done (for example, I worry very much this is how the French elite will perceive Macron's victory).

 

[Theonik]

This will never happen.

Which is a Westminster problem as is all of this. Simply put Westminster has mistreated Wales in such a way that England's misery is to their advantage.

 

[theaface]

The Tories rebrand to the Theresa May party continues

And we thought Corbz had a cult of personality etc etc etc

What bizarro world am I living in where Theresa May became a good thing? What are the electorate seeing that I'm not? She has struck me as one of the most repellent, cold, unpleasant, disingenuous and vile people in UK politics for a number of years now. I don't fucking get it.

 

[*Splinter]

If anyone's wondering how H2B ISA and LISA interact Martin Lewis has a great blog on it here. I'm taking advantage of them both using his advice.

Thank you for this! Looks like I had some misconceptions about the H2B ISA
-Only takes three (calendar) months to reach the minimum
-Can* be used for the deposit


(Sorry for going offtopic.)

Crab that's the first sensible explanation I've seen for a Leave vote, thank you.

 

[*Splinter]

What bizarro world am I living in where Theresa May became a good thing? What are the electorate seeing that I'm not? She has struck me as one of the most repellent, cold, unpleasant, disingenuous and vile people in UK politics for a number of years now. I don't fucking get it.

I think she's just become the face of Brexit, and people care about Brexit.

...which means in an alternate timeline people are being this passionate about Michael Gove.

 

[StayDead]

Which is a Westminster problem as is all of this. Simply put Westminster has mistreated Wales in such a way that England's misery is to their advantage.

The problem is though, how do these people think making everyone suffer is going to make the government put more money to wales? If anything it makes it less likely. All the money in the country is going to be funneled into London like the Thatcher era to try and save what semblance of an economy we have left.

 

[PJV3]

Fuck me the guardian is depressing, a life long labour voter going to UKIP because of North Korea, blames labour locally for the cuts, I'm actually gobsmacked by it all.

But he voted remain in the referendum, this is a fucking mental country.

 

[kharma45]

Yeah but if you try and sell a loaf of bread for £10 you won't get many takers (unless prices are being artificially inflated which is what I was referring to with restricted supply).

My post wasn't very clear, but my point was that if prices are too high then the blame needs to be with whoever is responsible for not building enough, not simply "greedy builders".


Oh yeah that's what I was thinking of. I was interested in the ISA but looked into it too late (there is a limit to how much you can save each month, needs a minimum of 8 months saving or a couple of years to be really worthwhile).


On the subject of shoeboxes: I'm looking at it as a smaller home takes less time to clean

You can withdraw from the HTB after three months if you max it out at the start with £1200.

 

[slider]

Ooh, the BBC news (via The Halifax Bank/Building Society) report a fall in house prices. Run for the hills!!

 

[Incognito]

It's interesting to me about the lack of housing. I agree on a national level there is a lack of housing but where I live they have been non stop building houses for the last 10-15 years at an incredible rate.

who are the major housebuilders in the UK?

 

[pswii60]

who are the major housebuilders in the UK?

I think Persimmons is the largest - and the worst shower of shit imaginable, from what friends have told me who have bought their crappy homes. If you've ever seen the Tom Hanks movie "The Money Pit" - that's a Persimmons home.

Also Redrow, Jones, Bovis, Taylor Wimpey, Barratts, Stewart Milne.

 

[excowboy]

Corbyn in my town today, Worcester. Not there but some friends went down, sounded like he came across well to a packed high street.

On the housing question - heard an interesting radio programme about the Town Planning Act a few weeks ago. Whilst it achieved some egalitarian, post war aims, it also provided some unforeseen consequences. For instance, greenbelt land that can't be built on but with little public access and brownfield sites for development owned by housebuilders sitting idle, both artificially restrict supply and drive up prices. However, whenever developers or local authorities mention building on greenbelt there's a kneejerk reaction against it.

More recently, the Right To Buy scheme has again started to reduce council stock and the money generated has not been effectively reinvested, because, funnily enough, councils are skinny for some reason...

 

[pswii60]

I was at the airport again the other day and it got me thinking..

Post-Brexit, will we have to go and queue up in the large and slow moving non-EU/EEA/CH citizen queue at border control, when we visit EU countries? Or will we have a Swiss style agreement? It's the little things...

 

[Theonik]

Corbyn in my town today, Worcester. Not there but some friends went down, sounded like he came across well to a packed high street.

On the housing question - heard an interesting radio programme about the Town Planning Act a few weeks ago. Whilst it achieved some egalitarian, post war aims, it also provided some unforeseen consequences. For instance, greenbelt land that can't be built on but with little public access and brownfield sites for development owned by housebuilders sitting idle, both artificially restrict supply and drive up prices. However, whenever developers or local authorities mention building on greenbelt there's a kneejerk reaction against it.

More recently, the Right To Buy scheme has again started to reduce council stock and the money generated has not been effectively reinvested, because, funnily enough, councils are skinny for some reason...

It's kinda complicated. In London in particular infrastructure can be a huge problem because of sprawl. Even with the massive investment in London infrastructure demand tends to have many hotspots simply because a lot of the available, cheap housing is also not well connected to centres of economic activity.

 

[Maledict]

Corbyn in my town today, Worcester. Not there but some friends went down, sounded like he came across well to a packed high street.

On the housing question - heard an interesting radio programme about the Town Planning Act a few weeks ago. Whilst it achieved some egalitarian, post war aims, it also provided some unforeseen consequences. For instance, greenbelt land that can't be built on but with little public access and brownfield sites for development owned by housebuilders sitting idle, both artificially restrict supply and drive up prices. However, whenever developers or local authorities mention building on greenbelt there's a kneejerk reaction against it.

More recently, the Right To Buy scheme has again started to reduce council stock and the money generated has not been effectively reinvested, because, funnily enough, councils are skinny for some reason...

A) it's worth remembering that there are legal restrictions on what you can spend the money earnt from right to buy on. For example, in the 80s you couldn't actually spend it on building more housing - the aim of the policy wasn't just to build home ownership, it was also specifically to reduce the amount of social housing.

B) the green belt is a fucking joke. Stupid policy that caters to an idiotic nostalgia that has seriously hurt home ownership and house building in the uk.

 

[excowboy]

Oh, for sure. I just left with the impression this was one of those complications i.e. there's a lot of viable development land inside the M25 that can't be touched due to the vagaries of a 70 year old planning act.

I guess my point is that we need a government who will actually take a broad view and enact change on all the different variables that create this situation, rather than something that sounds good but only creates short term gain for long term pain.

 

[Chinner]

Affordable Housing - for rich people to buy in bulk and rent out for insane prices to hurt the poor even more!

Ah yes, "affordable" housing. There is a new estate in Reading, they sent out a mailer trying to get existing homeowners to move there, I had a cursory look

The houses cost £150k more than my place is currently worth, were less than half the size, had no garage and no garden. That's the state of housebuilding in this country

I am not lucky enough to own a house, I could never afford the deposit. I am however lucky enough to live in a 120 year old Bungalow which admittedly it only has 3 rooms technically (bedsit/kitchen/toilet) I pay about £300 less rent than everywhere else in the area and I get a hell of a lot more space than all the other places I saw. The only downside is outside is a pretty populated road (cars all day).

My landlord actually seems reasonable too, he said he just wanted nicer people to move into the area which is why he dropped the rent but is very selective about who he rents to. My neighbour is in the same building as it was some Almshouses owned by the chuch and split up into 3 small flats is some guy from Brazil who's been living here for a good number of years now and said he's never had a problem with my Landlord.

I don't get why I'm bringing this up here, but if it wasn't for the one reasonable landlord in the area I'd probably still be on the verge of depression living at home with a member of my family I hated (step mum). I just wish I could actually afford a house, but with a Tory government that's never going to happen.

There are some affordable houses being built near me actually. Is there an exact definition of affordable housing? Some suggest its housing buil and sold at a percentage lower than market average for first time buyers/low income families. Other definition I've read is basically privatized council houses. Or can it both?

 

[w1ck3dn1nj4]

the problem is that no party is really trying to champion an exit from the brexit. so there is no party really standing against the arguement of may that she wants a overwhelming majority to get the best deal (which is ridiculous because nobody is going to give UK a better deal just because tories are powerful in the country)

This is what pisses me off so much. No party with the balls to stand up against Brexit idiocy with any real passion or anger. Just half-arsed shite. The opportunity is there for Lib Dems to galvanize the 48% but no, they’re throwing it away like limp **** in fear of losing some leave base.

Imagine how much more effective it would be if the core campaign is based on slogans like “Brexit’s a mistake” or “The real Brexit vote starts now” or snippets like “Brexit - built on a foundation of lies” or some shit like that. Just like “strong and stable” works for May, something simple like “Brexit’s a mistake” might be effective if repeated often enough that it starts sowing that seed of doubt in people’s mind. Someone just do something please. Goddamnit!!

 

[Xando]

I was at the airport again the other day and it got me thinking..

Post-Brexit, will we have to go and queue up in the large and slow moving non-EU/EEA/CH citizen queue at border control, when we visit EU countries? Or will we have a Swiss style agreement? It's the little things...

If there is no agreement on freedom of movement(which May ruled out) you'll have to stand in line like everyone else.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

How similar is this to the Iraq situation? With political parties being on the wrong side of history?

 

[Pyroclastic]

http://news.sky.com/story/senior-lib-dems-urge-pro-remain-collaboration-10868912

vince the cable being recorded saying that people should vote tactically for pro remain mps (whether you agree with those sentiments or not) when farron is still saying otherwhise is some absolutely shit messaging, they need to sort that out.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

This is what pisses me off so much. No party with the balls to stand up against Brexit idiocy with any real passion or anger. Just half-arsed shite. The opportunity is there for Lib Dems to galvanize the 48% but no, they’re throwing it away like limp **** in fear of losing some leave base.

Imagine how much more effective it would be if the core campaign is based on slogans like “Brexit’s a mistake” or “The real Brexit vote starts now” or snippets like “Brexit - built on a foundation of lies” or some shit like that. Just like “strong and stable” works for May, something simple like “Brexit’s a mistake” might be effective if repeated often enough that it starts sowing that seed of doubt in people’s mind. Someone just do something please. Goddamnit!!

Jeremy? Is that you?

 

[DarthMasta]

I was at the airport again the other day and it got me thinking..

Post-Brexit, will we have to go and queue up in the large and slow moving non-EU/EEA/CH citizen queue at border control, when we visit EU countries? Or will we have a Swiss style agreement? It's the little things...

Nobody can tell you how it's going to be, nobody knows, but if we were betting, I'd bet on non-EU/EEA/CH citizen queue, since all the others require stuff the UK already declared as unacceptable.