There's a difference between saying the IRA was right and opening a dialogue with them to ultimately end their bombings with the good Friday agreement.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
- Start date
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Jezbollah
Member
The Clinton/Corbyn comparison is hilarious to say the least.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
That is not what he did.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
Audioboxer
Member
As much as the Conservatives are trying to paint the local elections as a big win in Scotland, it's mostly just Labour voters drifting to the Tories (which is a win for them, but they're still up against a lot of SNP voters). The SNP still retained a large majority of seats.
While some regions are going to be very close in the GE, I do not predict some dramatic flip-flop from SNP voters in 2015. You're likely to see >= 5 seats lost at most from some fine margins. There will be some that put aside their Unionism in 2015 after the NO vote in 2014 to vote based on policy and not protect the Union. Whereas now they're feeling under threat again and will probably chuck morals out the window to run back to the strongest Unionist party.
It'll be interesting to see if Labour lose that last seat. Same with Lib Dems. Mini-London Edinburgh might be likely to go Blue. Large support for the Union in Edinburgh, and with Labour utterly failing to attract the Unionist support in Scotland you'll probably see more reds swap sides for blue.
Spuck-uk
Banned
...and then emerges months later still utterly clueless as to why she lost.
Spuck-uk
Banned
This is the thing, the Tories are STILL devoid of talent, May is absolutely appalling, and can't talk for shit (hence her ducking the debates).
Most papers, and the BBC, never call them on this.
well im willing to be convinced.
You just reminded me of Cameron's West Ham / Aston Villa slip up
https://youtu.be/0H_vgFcs1bk
The surrounding talk about what a shining example we are as a country sounds so fucking hollow now
Spuck-uk
Banned
I mean, that's pretty indefensible, but could be worse, could support Chelsea.
..but then he'd be a BNP candidate.
Pish bait.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I mean, I could make any argument and you're going to ignore it in favour of thinking that McDonnell, an actual Trot, would be a better leader of the Labour Party than a Trot sympathiser.
The Labour Party is dead. I know you really, really want to pour scorn on my lot and shout "the media is biased, and you can't trust the Lib Dems!", but I am actually going to continue campaigning for a sane, electable alternative to the Tories, whilst Labour fight the same fight they had in the 1980s, which entrenched the same Thatcher you so hate in power for a generation.
And as much as you want to shout about the coalition, it is *undeniable* that this country was better run when you had Lib Dems in government than the utterly insane bullshit we have had to put up with since folks like you cheered our downfall.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Is there any point at which you'd hold your hands up and say yeah that's a bit weird?
Huw_Dawson
Member
He's a Lib Dem. I assure you we are all a bit weird.
We have an event at conference every year where we all get drunk and sing really dumb politics songs.
We are people that do politics for fun. You have to be a bit mad to do all the work and lose.
Spuck-uk
Banned
McDonnell isn't a Trot, he's a socialist with some Marxist leanings. He talked about his politics (and well) on the Marr show yesterday.
"really want to pour scorn on my lot and shout "the media is biased, and you can't trust the Lib Dems!""
a) The media is biased, here's a paper on bias in the BBC http://www.mediareform.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Corbynresearch.pdf
b) I'm not voting for 'your lot', because I did before, and they immediately jumped into bed with the tories, and abandoned their election pledges on tuition. Those are pretty concrete reasons.
'Not quite as shit as the tories' didn't work in the General Election, and it won't solve the whole heap of problems that go far beyond Brexit in this country. I'm not a Labour lifer by any means, I'll vote for the party that offers the changes the country needs, that's not the Lib Dems.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
God this post is hilarious
From calling McDonnell a Trotskyist, to a Lib Dem claiming that Labour is dead, to saying the coalition was good
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
McDonnell is a trot, a long time trot. The LRC is the trot outpost. It's one of the principle reasons for dysfunction in the leadership, as Seamus is a stalinite and they've had their surrogates jockeying for position since Corbyn got into power.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I will remember this post on election night.
And yeah, I will defend the coalition, because unlike the current Labour Party we did everything we could to actually make this country a better place.
Nothing makes me angrier than the absolute, unreserved idiocy and waste of time that is the current Labour Party.
I am DONE with Momentum members explain to me that the Syria gas attack a few weeks back was a conspiracy by the West.
I am DONE with seeing Socialist Party posters up endorsing Jeremy Corbyn.
I am DONE with a Labour Party that simultaneously has housed people like Tony Blair, Simon Danczuck, Jeremy Corbyn and Joe Anderson.
I am out on the streets standing up for real fair honest politics, and I will not have people sit there, with the Tories in power and on course for a bigger landslide than Thatcher ever got, and justify incompetent leadership, a dearth of responsibility and a meaningless fight over dead ideology because of a conspiracy by everybody who does not match in time with the Red Flag to make the clowns at the top of the Party look like a credible government.
Well, he's at least right about saying the coalition was better than what we have now.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
Buddy
You have 9 MPs
Also, for all your posturing about Corbyn not stopping Brexit, Farron couldn't even get all of them to vote against it lol
Looks like Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will face the same howling mob on Question Time in lieu of a proper debate
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39845685
Wonder what kind of wonderful plants will be in the audience this time?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39845685
Wonder what kind of wonderful plants will be in the audience this time?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Fair play to you, decent answer. Can't have a go at you for that lol
A couple of weeks back he claimed there was a story in the Islington Gazzette saying that Corbyn could lose his seat to the lib dems in Islington North.
The source was the Lib Dem challenger basically saying "we can do 'em!".
At the last election it was Lab 29,659, Lid Dem 3,984.
I mean I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but you just can't listen to him where the Lib Dem's are concerned. He's gone past all reason.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
Good fucking job pal
But no, you go on and do politics for fun. Not like people are fucking starving or dying because of your shit, spineless party or anything.
I defend Corbyn because he is the first frontbench politician in christ knows how long who will not budge on not cutting benefits, who will not budge on continually bombing the middle east, who will not budge on keeping the NHS in public ownership, who will not budge on opposing the horrific way the poor, sick and disabled are treated in this fucking country. I defend him because if he goes, then the arseholes who go on about "legitimate concerns on immigration" and needing to be tough on benefits will take the party over again, and continue to triangulate towards fascism. Fuck that.
I'm glad you're in a position where it's clearly not a choice between life and death, but many are. That's why I defend Corbyn, because he actually cares
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It's pretty disgusting to see you pick out Danczuk when the Liberal Democrats harboured Cyril Smith. I'm pretty okay with attacking parties based on the people they house ideologically, but I think we can take it as a given that absolutely none of the parties are happy housing paedophiles and that provided they take proper action, that's something that reflects on the individual and not the party. Intimating your opponents are the party of paedos is well beneath you, Huw.
Food banks are trendy innit.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
Oh fuck off. What good is it having a party in power if they're going to adhere to the same failed bullshit of cuts and acting like immigration is what's causing these problems? It'll be the same decline, just a touch slower. People will still die from it.
I don't blame the Lib Dems/Nick Clegg for going for the coalition when they did, at the time it did seem like a reasonable resolution to the election result, but hindsight is 20/20, and it was a huge fucking mistake. Both for the country, and for the Lib Dems themselves.
Letting the Tories drift in the wind with a minority government, or even propping up Brown's Labour if they could have secured a proper deal on electoral reform, would have been vastly preferable to the mess we ended up with.
Letting the Tories drift in the wind with a minority government, or even propping up Brown's Labour if they could have secured a proper deal on electoral reform, would have been vastly preferable to the mess we ended up with.
They're habit forming, which like any addiction is a bad thing that's a sign of a morally dubious character.
People supported Gordon Brown, and got a Tory government. People supported Ed Miliband, and got a Tory government. We'd have a had a decade of the Tories in power just from those two elections.
When the rest of the Labour party put forward a candidate and policies that stand a chance, I'll be listening. But if the best they can do is the likes of Owen 'Lets negotiate with ISIS' Smith, Liz Kendell, Chuka Umunna and Yvette Cooper, then they frankly deserve to be in this state.
Good fucking job pal
But no, you go on and do politics for fun. Not like people are fucking starving or dying because of your shit, spineless party or anything.
I defend Corbyn because he is the first frontbench politician in christ knows how long who will not budge on not cutting benefits, who will not budge on continually bombing the middle east, who will not budge on keeping the NHS in public ownership, who will not budge on opposing the horrific way the poor, sick and disabled are treated in this fucking country. I defend him because if he goes, then the arseholes who go on about "legitimate concerns on immigration" and needing to be tough on benefits will take the party over again, and continue to triangulate towards fascism. Fuck that.
I'm glad you're in a position where it's clearly not a choice between life and death, but many are. That's why I defend Corbyn, because he actually cares
That's amazing. *Clap*
Corbyn is a shit politician in a world where you need to be media savvy and command a 24 hour news cycle. You may decry that fact but it is a reality today. He only belongs on the backbenches and represents an extremist element of the Labour party that appeals to very few people. His share of the vote today is representative only of the inertia in the vote rather than active support.
His supporters have to try and defend claims that is a extreme leftist. He is extreme left. The Labour party is the not he Socialist Workers Party. It is a centre-left coalition.
Corbyn will make zero difference to anything since he is incapable of gaining any power over anyone or anything of actual importance enough to ACTUALLY affect the lives of people. Sure you feel great supporting him. Fair play to you but it's totally fucking meaningless.
We are in such a fucking awful position viz. Brexit precisely because the Labour party is run by a feckless moron and a bunch of absolute loons. He probably also voted Leave, the absolute cunt.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
There is no magical money tree.
It's good to see that he backed that up with evidence, and didn't just take a wild guess straight from his arse.
Huw_Dawson
Member
So obviously we should do what Labour has done and give up and let the Tories and their big media conspiracy it's-not-us-it's-everyone-else's-fault machine win.
No, I will stick up for my beliefs, defend my side of the argument and work as best I can to deliver more Lib Dem MPs into Westminster.
That isn't me being bizarre, or a fruitcake. It's me having a spine - the thing Labour lost somewhere on the road into the wilderness.
The absolutely definition of whataboutism, Crab, and I am sure you know it.
This is the thing with Labour supporters now. You know it's indefensible what's happened. You know it's not right that your leadership stand beneath CPGB and Syrian flags and deliver speeches, then claiming they did not know later. You know that it isn't right. But you don't need to defend your positions. You attack. You bring up horrible politicians from other party's histories. You claim the media is biased and everyone is out to do you wrong.
And yet are you out there delivering leaflets? Standing in elections? No. You are letting the Tories win, because it is so very nice indeed to wear the clean clothes of effortless opposition than the dirty clothes of those that want to win.
EDIT: I am actually going to step away from this, mostly because I feel I am derailing the thread and typing this furiously on the way home on my phone!
DarthMasta
Member
Do not, my friends, become addicted to food. It will take hold of you, and you will resent its absence!
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
God I had no idea that "extreme left" meant "not willing to sell out the poor", I thought it meant "abolish all private property".
Ah, the argument employed by people who either don't know how money works, or are arguing in bad faith because it goes against their ideology. Which are you?
Blair presided over the biggest redistribution of wealth since the 60s. Childhood and elderly poverty declined over his term. The nhs received massive funding increases, as did local government, early education, the schools system and more. We made huge steps forward in terms of social equality, including Lgbt rights and protections under law against discrimination (the single equalities act).
There is a choice between the far left and the far right.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Erm...I think Crab actually did try to get selected as a Labour candidate for somewhere in Wales...
The last few pages I've started getting worried that it must be fattening
Um, you're going overboard here. For one thing, Crab tried to stand as an MP, so yes he is doing his bit.
Secondly, it's not 'what aboutism'. It's a valid comparison. All parties have shameful deeds and actions in their recent history.
PJV3
Member
I wouldn't worry about the progressive alliance for a couple of elections at least.
Yep. Leftists fracturing over purity tests while the Tories manage to stretch from Ken Clarke to Nigel Farage.
It'd be nice to have a unifying figure around like a Blair (without the whole war crimes thing, of course) or a Macron.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Last comment before I step back for a bit...
That is just the thing, yeah. Labour's unelectability I'm sure makes lots of people so extremely happy. But this is self-inflicted by the Labour Party on themselves, not anybody else.
I believe in fighting to win. My party has nine MPs, and our weakened voice in Westminster and elsewhere was one of the main causes of the defeat of the Remain campaign. Indeed, had we held more seats in 2015, there would not have been an EU referendum in 2016.
It makes me angry when a party that has everything going for it - a big pile of fanatic voters, union backers, a history of success in government - throws it all away. It will not ever be something I will be OK with.
And FWIW fair play to Crab for trying to stand as an MP, even if I disagree with his politics. I can't know everything.
And no, Cyril Smith's appalling activities are not as relevant in 2017 as a currently alive and nasty piece of work like Danczuck. That does not make Smith's activities less horrible, but it is whataboutism. It deflects from valid criticism of Danczuck and his now former party. Maybe I could bring up Livingstone instead? He is, after all, still a member of the Labour Party and unrelated go a couple of nasty pieces of work who worked as Rochdale's MP.
Sod it, I'll add in one other point as an edit:
You know what about Labour though - I hope Rotherham and Burnham do good things for their cities, like Khan is doing for London, and I don't think either will be bad.
If they are, my party will be there to call them out.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Progressivism in this country is dead and buried anyway
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
I'm not an ideologue, so I'm comfortable with the idea that when you spend money it has to come from somewhere lest you bring about inflation and financial catastrophe.
Now if your argument was 'Corbyn is the only person who has presented an ability to raise money without making everyone else worse off', I'd be on board. Instead what has happened is he's presented a bunch of easily impressed lefties a laundry list of fantasies, which he knows fine well he'll never have to carry out. He cannot even tell us how much he's going to spend, let alone where it's going to come from, and has a marxist as his shadow chancellor.
If previous economic policy was so bad, how come this new Corbynomic revolution is basically Miliband policies without the costings?
The Tories only got 25% of the first preferences on a small turnout which favoured their key demo (auld cunts). I wouldn't be surprised if the Tory vote was around the 20%-23% mark in the GE. That should pick them up a couple of seats, but they'd need a lot of ducks to fall to get the 9 or 10 some people have been suggesting. Think the Lib Dems will get 3 or 4, Labour maybe 2 or 3.
Can we all at least come together to celebrate this?
I'd hope it would be the last we ever heard from this odious malignant, but I'm not that optimistic.
PJV3
Member
I don't think a Blair will work again, or the trick of attacking the left for brownie points with the centre right.
It's got to be a more inclusive figure like John Smith, this insulting each other but expecting their votes stuff clearly isn't going to work.
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