Let's not forget that he's also completely devoid of any charisma. The media, and even people within his party, will do anything to shit on him, but in the end, he's a boring old bloke who doesn't know how to interact with crowds or the media.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Let's not forget that he's also completely devoid of any charisma. The media, and even people within his party, will do anything to shit on him, but in the end, he's a boring old bloke who doesn't know how to interact with crowds or the media.
I'm fairly sure I've been involved with the Labour Party longer than you have, and yes of course I'm aware of the collapse of the old liberals. I'm also aware that words change meaning over time. Liberal still has multiple definitions even nowadays in both politics and economics - but none of them involve definitions imposed by the far left. At least, not to normal people.
For example, despite complaining about liberals hand wringing and failure to do anything, id point out it's the liberal democrats who are the only party with an explicit commitment to raising taxes to fund public services, with their one penny on the pound.
Oh stop with the bullshit.
He's spent his political life with crowds and does it very well.
The media, yes, massive weakness, but stop spreading shit
travisbickle
Member
Just because it's photocopied and looks cooler than the typical awful digital format of other similar Facebook images, doesn't mean it's true.
Not that I think they're lying, but I'll have to google around like I usually do for these kind of things.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
I could write a book about how much of a twat Jeremy Corbyn is already. He has more in common with Trump than almost any western politician.
Labour should be the party of opposition to Brexit, or at the very least, a hard Brexit and leaving the single market. The only reason why they're not is because Corbyn knows that the majority of Labour voters, voted for Brexit in the referendum. So he's going along with Brexit for the votes. But such a man of conviction eh.
Huw_Dawson
Member
So you accept Corbyn isn't trustworthy.
Farron had a collection of photos above his bed according to the interview - one of Jo Grimond, another of one of the Kennedys... He is a politics geek, like a lot of Lib Dems.
Weird thing to attack him on, he is by far one of the most lefty people in the party.
They didn't though. 65 percent of labour voters voted remain.
I'd say he is very good with crowds of supporters. He likes them, he plays to them well, a good time is had by all. But he seems to go out of his way to avoid challenging situations , and seems to crumble during internal party meetings with his own MPs.
The problem, as crab has outlined, is distribution. The ones that voted remain are in the relatively safe metropolitan seats. The ones that voted leave are in the much closer marginals in the north of the country.
You can't assemble a winning coalition just based on remain voters, especially given how FPTP works in our system. And Corbyn has judged that keeping labour brexiteers is more important than the die hard remainers like myself.
And, as a political argument and as much as I dislike him and what he's doing to the party - I have to agree with that decision. Labour needs to win to accomplish anything, and labour cannot win by being the party of remain right now.
I stand corrected. But I think the point still stands, he doesn't want to lose those 35 percent of labour voters by potentially alienating them and opposing Brexit.
It's just so damn annoying. The time that Brexit hits is the one time we have the worst opposition I can ever remember.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
It's no coincidence at all. Corbyn is a lifelong brexiter.
Maybe, but that's a side of him we've never seen, but has been "leaked" by those trying to get rid of him, so I don't know how much I believe that.
Personally (very anecdotal) I've seen him speak in a relatively small venue and he handled someone in the crowd who was very, um, argumentative very well indeed.
PJV3
Member
I'm hoping he goes after the election, I hope the rest of the party lowers the temperature because it's the only way he's going to go.
He's nothing like Trump, I can't even understand why you would say that with a populist like Farage kicking around.
I know he was accused of not putting his heart and soul in to the Remain campaign (Theresa too!) but is there evidence of him being a Brixiteer in the past?
EDIT: Never mind http://uk.businessinsider.com/jerem...s-all-the-times-he-said-the-eu-was-bad-2016-4
He voted against joining the EEC in 1975, against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I mean on Corbyn and Brexit, go read up the interview with the old Labour MP that defected. He was surprised that Corbyn announced he was pro-Remain, given how he was from the old anti-EU Bennite wing of the party...
He is backed by Militant/TUSC, who are a strongly anti-EU force too.
He is backed by Militant/TUSC, who are a strongly anti-EU force too.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Just because he's on the opposite end of the scale in terms of his ideology, it doesn't mean that they're nothing alike.
The truth is they're very similar in their methods and behaviour. There's a reason why Corbyn had a 'Trump' rebrand at the start of the year.
The big difference between the two is that you can plausibly argue that Corbyn surrounds himself with even worse people than Trump does.
There's a strong argument that one follows the other. Got to remember all the stories about labour voters not knowing the parties stance on Europe, Labour Party headquarters not participating in events, labour headquarters rewriting speeches and press releases, Jeremy's timely interventions about immigration, turkey and everything else. For the largest political party in Europe Labour leadership seemed to not give a fuck about the EU in the referendum.
Mind you, expecting someone who has spent his entire life voting against eU membership to lead a campaign to stay in it was always going to be difficult. But from my perspective, Corbyn and Seamus fucking Milne did everything they could get away with to undermine the Remain campaign and for that I will not forgive.
I notice the SNP numbers have stabilised in that prediction, only losing one seat to the Conservatives.
It's mostly because they aren't trying to make a profit.
They do get government grants to help them build new homes, but the key difference is that 'profit' from my rent, after maintenance and admin fees and so on are deducted, goes towards them building new homes in the area, or at least paying towards the finance arrangements for the most recently built ones. (My scheme was built in the 80s, so they'll own it outright now with no debt associated with it.)
The big problem with the private rental market is people buying homes to rent them, they're usually charging their tenants to cover the monthly mortgage payment and maybe a bit extra. So you get the very people who can't afford to save to buy a home of their own paying the mortgage payments for someone else.
Careful now...
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[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_QQm0pXkAENGRv.jpg:large[/IMG]Billy_Pilgrim
Member
He's got THIRTY YEARS of writing and speaking about it using the same arguments as the brexiters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXTvsqUphMc
Before he was elected Leader he had a website that contained hundreds of his old articles and speeches for the Morning Star and STW etc, which were removed pretty much the instant he was nominated. All of the stuff that gets thrown at Corbyn comes from his own stupid mouth, over a long and colourful period.
Spuck-uk
Banned
I've seen him speak with an absolutely massive crows in Liverpool, he's really good at it, for all his other flaws.
Worse morally, or in terms of outright incompetence?
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
In some cases both.
So far as I'm aware Trump hasn't attended the funeral of an Al Qaeda bomber just yet, but they're about even when it comes to holocaust deniers.
In many ways Corbyn benefits from the sheer ridiculousness of his past positions, because many people outright refuse to believe things about him that he said and did himself.
Well, that explains everything about the situation we're in right now and the complete lack of opposition on the path that Theresa wants to take us down re Brexit. It's interesting because Labour keeps announcing new policies (and some good ones) but there's absolutely nothing making their EU stance any clearer. You'd think Corbyn would be telling us what he'd be doing differently to Theresa in the EU negotiations... but nothing.
Spuck-uk
Banned
I have no idea how you construe that from what I've said, but I don't think he's untrustworthy. I DO, like a lot of people from my generation find the Lib Dems deeply untrustworthy, because of them getting into bed with the tories and abandoning their electoral promises for a whiff of power.
The only picture anyone needs of Thatcher is the one to be ceremonially burned every year, to stop her rising from her undeath.
The problem is the only way to achieve power is by persuading people who currently vote conservative to switch to labour. There aren't voters out there otherwise. And we won't do that by attacking thatcher, fun as it is.
Spuck-uk
Banned
How can a 70 year old man be a lifelong Brexiter? Like, Britain wasn't even IN the EU when he got started in politics smh.
You seem to think the government, Leave backers and the media would have accepted any amendments prior to negotiations that would have an impact on those negotiations. The right to remain is very much a bargaining chip for both sides. The Article 50 vote was purely to trigger invocation of Article 50, which negotiations could not begin before.
We can argue about the terms of the eventual deal and whether Parliament or even the public should have a final say on it, and you may be right that a good starting point for good will might have been to guarantee that right to remain, but rightly or wrongly the A50 vote was whipped through because the question of leaving the EU was what we had a referendum on, Leave won, and triggering A50 is the first step.
Corbyn (and anyone else) would have been maligned all the harder if they were slipping in amendments that precluded certain decisions in negotiations.
lol @ Corbyn being Trump
I can't think of anything more Trump-like in the UK in recent times than the level of discourse and lies from the Conservatives and Johnson/Gove/Farage. They have played straight from the Trump playbook, and May's gung ho Brexit approach is pretty much Make Great Britain Somehow Great Again.
The problem is (and some friends currently canvassing on the doorstep are encountering this ) - this is a Brexit election. Right now nothing else is cutting through. So all these policies are worthless because Labour's message and voting record on Brexit is confused as hell and the party doesn't seem to understand what it wants - partly because the leadership is torn. Corbyn and McDonnel are anti-Eu and have been their entire lives, but a significant part of the membership that lives them is very strongly pro-eu.
Unfortunately for better or worse this election is about Brexit.
travisbickle
Member
Are you talking about him going to Martin mcguiness's funeral?
He was a political heavyweight during the 90s, Bill Clinton was also at the funeral.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Labour lost a bunch of ground to UKIP as well. I think regardless of stance, they're fucked for this election, because the base has such a big split between remain and leave.
Imagine how badly the media would torch Corbyn for wanting to ignore a referendum!
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
No, I'm talking about him actually going to multiple funerals of dead terrorists (during their actual campaigns) to honour their memory who were nowhere near the level and rank of Mcguiness, who by the by is a far superior man in general to Jeremy Corbyn.
Spuck-uk
Banned
McGuinness was also one of the engineers behind the peace process, and helped achieve a peace in NI I never thought I'd see growing up.
But thats a whole nother thread that's been done already and better off not resurrected.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Incredible. "Bad boy" indeed.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Yet Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell opposed this peace, and somehow had the audacity to try and claim a role in it themselves nearly two decades later.
They were agitants. They wanted the IRA to win. They genuinely believed that the murder of British citizens was a righteous thing.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Which Al-Qaeda members were these exactly?
Oh I agree. As much as I dislike him and what he's done, the issues in labour over Brexit right now are structural and not caused by corbyn. There is no winning route here.
Saying that, all parties are coalitions of people who disagree on things. A more effective charismatic leader could bridge the gap and make that coalition work again. See Obama versus Clinton in the states.
The guy who sent sexual messages to a 17 year old? What a loss
Spuck-uk
Banned
Taking a break from his regular schedule of trying to fuck teenage girls and jumping before he's pushed.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
I'm talking about the IRA, obviously.
Though he did call the death of Osama Bin Laden 'Shameful' and has close links with Hezbollah and Hamas.
Spuck-uk
Banned
I think Corbyn would have done better in a Presidential type of contest, but that's not what we have, and he's definitely not been able to get the party to pull together..
..but as always, who else is there, he thrashed the charmless Owen Smith and the rest, twice. The rest of the contenders for the leadership role all seemed intent on continuing the losing cause that Ed Milliband ran.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
You're trying to claim that Jeremy Corbyn was right in supporting the IRA? Is that really what we're doing in this election?
Huw_Dawson
Member
Rochdale is now a potential win for the LDs - an independent incumbent, a good local LD party and a disordered local Labour party.
Man alive, the McDonnell attacks read like they were literally proof read by the Tory Party before going to print.
He obviously can't care enough about the party or the people he supposedly represents to use that kind of inventive this close to a general election. He's actively campaigning against it.
Put me down for another "good riddance"
Labour is utterly exhausted of talent to be honest. It's what happens after a long period in power - look at the tories under Hague / IDS / Howard.
In similar comparisons, both parties had the chance to choose a more electable leader who might have got ten back into power, but failed by swerving to the more extremes (Kenneth Clarke & David Miliband). Even if Ed really wasn't extreme at all in practice...
I'm saying he didn't "support" them.
I'm saying people should do themselves a favour and avoid reading any truth in to your words, read the articles I posted if they're at all interested in a reasoned understanding of the accusations, and then decide for themselves.
If you think he celebrated the bombings of British people or sympathised with attacks on British people in any way, you are deluded.
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