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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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I think on the face of it, if we either gain seats or get a big gain in vote share, Farron will probably be happy to stay on. If we got a bad night and got 8% and thus lost seats to the Tories, he'd also have to stay on - it would be Carmichael taking over, as he's probably the only other person who could lead the party... if Clegg didn't want to do it. Maybe Hughes would finally get to be leader?

Farron will be leader for a good few more years yet.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Just got a campaign leaflet in the post from the Tory campaign. There are eight counts of "strong and stable" alone. Jesus.

I wonder if they're making a bid for my local MP's seat. It's uber-safe Labour heartland, but I guess anything is possible. Saw more of the Greens candidate last GE than the Conservatives, so maybe they'll finally stick their head around and knock on doors.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Panelbase:

CON 48 (+1)
LAB 31 (+1)
LD 8 (-2)
UKIP 5 (=)
GRN 2 (=)

If the Lib Dems don't get a double-digit vote share on 8th June surely Farron has to go?
He's squandering one of the greatest opportunities for success (or at least recovery) that a party has ever been offered.

He's deeply, deeply uninspiring and forgettable. Which is a huge problem if you're trying to swing voters to your side.

See also: basically all of labours options that aren't jam man.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Theresa May said:
We have always reported expenses according to the rules. What the CPS found very clearly in those cases that they looked at is that local spending had been properly reported and candidates had done nothing wrong.

This whole fucking country can rot.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'd like to complain, but it's Labour's fault that election spending rules are so lax to begin with, given how long we had to do something about it. We failed to sow, we're failing to reap. Best to grit your teeth, make a firm note of exactly what needs to be done when next in power, and move on.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Then what's the alternative?

On any divisive issue, whether that's on animal cruelty, gun control, recognising gay people as human, death penalty, or whatever, the Government ultimately will have to pick a side either way. You could also argue that someones morality was already being imposed in the first place with whatever the status quo is (so if fox hunting is legal, the morality of its supporters is imposed, and so on with the other issues)

I get your point (and agree with it) that just because something has popular support doesn't inherently mean its the right thing to do, but I don't see how that can be extended to the government should do nothing.

But the government doesn't have to pick a side. Or if it does, there aren't necessarily only two sides to pick from, at least one other available side is the side of the freedom of individuals to choose.

For example - to take something relatively innocuous and uncontroversial, at least in our country, at least in our time - the government does not have to be either for or against Catholicism. This wasn't always the case, but we are way better off now that the government no longer dictates one's religion. Similarly we are way better off that the government no longer dictates who we may or may not marry (or not much anyway).

(Death penalty is a different case, because it is explicitly a government power to be either exercised or not exercised, so it has to have a position on that.)

Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions and nuances and special cases, and obviously there's a sort of Overton window where things change over time. But I think it is stretching a point to say, for example, that foxhunters are imposing their morality on others if foxhunting is permitted - so long as it isn't actually compulsory.

In general I come down in favour of letting people do what they want unless there is a compelling reason otherwise.
 

Acorn

Member
I'd like to complain, but it's Labour's fault that election spending rules are so lax to begin with, given how long we had to do something about it. We failed to sow, we're failing to reap. Best to grit your teeth, make a firm note of exactly what needs to be done when next in power, and move on.
Left always ignores opportunities to be ruthless. Meanwhile Tories would murder their gran and serve life in prison just to fuck the left a little.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Sure, but in this case the compelling reason otherwise is the brutal, painful, and drawn out killing of an animal for no real reason other than some kind of primitive enjoyment. That's... probably a pretty good reason for the government to take a stance, unless you're suggesting we bring back bearbaiting, cockfighting or dogfighting.
 
He's deeply, deeply uninspiring and forgettable. Which is a huge problem if you're trying to swing voters to your side.

See also: basically all of labours options that aren't jam man.

I mean, I obviously disagree on Farron - I don't think he's uninspiring and forgettable - but Kennedy and Clegg had more charisma and I think that's what you're getting at.

He's a good media performer and, more importantly, human. He's also been a far better leader of the party as a strategic unit than Clegg was. One issue he's run into is that he's not aged into the role - he should have had five years to rebuild the party and get himself across, but he's had less than two years in the job, and has run into the Brexit storm.

He, nevertheless, somehow has ended up as the longest serving English leader - he started before both May and Corbyn. So maybe there's an argument of "he should have made more of an impression by now!"

But the core issue is that we are coming from an exceptionally low base and you've got 40-50% of the public who don't have an opinion on him. After this GE, the public WILL have a good opinion, provided people bother to tune into the town halls and debates.
 

Uzzy

Member
The Electoral Commission already fined CCHQ the maximum allowed amount for failing to properly declare spending. How much was that you ask? £70,000.

There's a good set of tweets from David Allen Green talking about the complete mess that electoral law is currently in, especially due to the bizarre divide between local and national issues. It's something that really needs reform, because a fine of £70k isn't going to stop any sort of abuses, not when the reward is so great.
 
Just got a campaign leaflet in the post from the Tory campaign. There are eight counts of "strong and stable" alone. Jesus.

I wonder if they're making a bid for my local MP's seat. It's uber-safe Labour heartland, but I guess anything is possible. Saw more of the Greens candidate last GE than the Conservatives, so maybe they'll finally stick their head around and knock on doors.

In Wakefield, the Tories seem to be making a bit of a play as well. Doesn't surprise me as Mary Creagh voted to Remain in the UK even though about 66.3% voted to Leave. Interestingly, her leaflet did not contain a single mention of Corbyn whereas the Tory leaflet had only one side about the candidate for the post, but about 3 or 4 pictures/mentions of May...
 

Acorn

Member
I mean, I obviously disagree on Farron - I don't think he's uninspiring and forgettable - but Kennedy and Clegg had more charisma and I think that's what you're getting at.

He's a good media performer and, more importantly, human. He's also been a far better leader of the party as a strategic unit than Clegg was.
Clegg fooled lefties into thinking he was a social democrat in the Kennedy mould leading to govt. When he was really socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

Although we aren't hard to fool...
 

Mr. Sam

Member
I feel like I should point out that it's entirely legal, if it's been harassing your prize hens or messing with your bins or whatever, for you to set a trap for a fox or even to grab a rifle and shoot one in the face. What isn't legal is to invite your mates around, get on horseback, chase a fox across the countryside and then have it torn apart by dogs.

And the public, at the last count, overwhelmingly agrees with that. This just feels like the Tories showboating at this point. Next point on the manifesto: we'll make it legal for Iain Duncan Smith to rest his balls on your shoulder if he wants to. What are you gonna do, vote Labour?
 

Acorn

Member
I feel like I should point out that it's entirely legal, if it's been harassing your prize hens or messing with your bins or whatever, for you to set a trap for a fox or even to grab a rifle and shoot one in the face. What isn't legal is to invite your mates around, get on horseback, chase a fox across the countryside and then have it torn apart by dogs.

And the public, at the last count, overwhelmingly agrees with that. This just feels like the Tories showboating at this point. Next point on the manifesto: we'll make it legal for Iain Duncan Smith to rest his balls on your shoulder if he wants to. What are you gonna do, vote Labour?
IDS previous position was already teabagging the poor and ill. So a vote winner clearly.
 
I feel like I should point out that it's entirely legal, if it's been harassing your prize hens or messing with your bins or whatever, for you to set a trap for a fox or even to grab a rifle and shoot one in the face. What isn't legal is to invite your mates around, get on horseback, chase a fox across the countryside and then have it torn apart by dogs.

And the public, at the last count, overwhelmingly agrees with that. This just feels like the Tories showboating at this point. Next point on the manifesto: we'll make it legal for Iain Duncan Smith to rest his balls on your shoulder if he wants to. What are you gonna do, vote Labour?

That's the only way I can make sense of it tbh.

Another "are we the baddies?" twinge on this one from me :-/
 

TimmmV

Member
But the government doesn't have to pick a side. Or if it does, there aren't necessarily only two sides to pick from, at least one other available side is the side of the freedom of individuals to choose.

For example - to take something relatively innocuous and uncontroversial, at least in our country, at least in our time - the government does not have to be either for or against Catholicism. This wasn't always the case, but we are way better off now that the government no longer dictates one's religion. Similarly we are way better off that the government no longer dictates who we may or may not marry (or not much anyway).

(Death penalty is a different case, because it is explicitly a government power to be either exercised or not exercised, so it has to have a position on that.)

Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions and nuances and special cases, and obviously there's a sort of Overton window where things change over time. But I think it is stretching a point to say, for example, that foxhunters are imposing their morality on others if foxhunting is permitted - so long as it isn't actually compulsory.

In general I come down in favour of letting people do what they want unless there is a compelling reason otherwise.

If the issue is divisive then the government takes a side by not doing anything/going with status quo though. If one side says hunting for sport shouldn't be illegal, and the other says it should, then the government choosing to do nothing basically sides with those who don't think it should be illegal. So for this reason, I don't think the "imposing a morality" argument is valid - it happens either way in cases like this.

But yeah, I think most people would agree with your last paragraph, they just feel that hunting animals for sport isn't a compelling reason
 
I mean, you have disabled people voting Tory. You have a Lancastrians who are currently wearing a high-visibility vest to hitchhike because of the Tories getting rid of his bus lane via cuts who says he's going to vote Tory.

If you want to talk about bad leaders, talk about Corbyn, who has not had a lack of media coverage and has lots of MPs. Farron is a Churchill when compared to Corbyn.
 

Audioboxer

Member
But the government doesn't have to pick a side. Or if it does, there aren't necessarily only two sides to pick from, at least one other available side is the side of the freedom of individuals to choose.

For example - to take something relatively innocuous and uncontroversial, at least in our country, at least in our time - the government does not have to be either for or against Catholicism. This wasn't always the case, but we are way better off now that the government no longer dictates one's religion. Similarly we are way better off that the government no longer dictates who we may or may not marry (or not much anyway).

(Death penalty is a different case, because it is explicitly a government power to be either exercised or not exercised, so it has to have a position on that.)

Obviously there are all sorts of exceptions and nuances and special cases, and obviously there's a sort of Overton window where things change over time. But I think it is stretching a point to say, for example, that foxhunters are imposing their morality on others if foxhunting is permitted - so long as it isn't actually compulsory.

In general I come down in favour of letting people do what they want unless there is a compelling reason otherwise.

While what you're describing sounds like some form of American Classical Liberalism (let people do whatever the hell they want, just about, and keep the government far away), sometimes Governments do make judgement calls on what posters in here are referring to as "optics". How it looks on the country, what message it sends, what it does to masses of the general public and then tie that up with actions. What are the benefits? What is the process? How is it regulated? Who suffers if anyone?

Considering this is revolving around death, because, yes, it is the killing of something for sport, it is going to be a contentious debate around both optics and actions. For the most part the sports our country likes to take part in, while competitive, do not function around the goal of killing. Horse riding which uses animals gets some flak, but that is more about the treatment of the horses, notably at the grand national when there is definitely overcrowding which is liable to cause accidents. The balance of human behaviour around wildlife is always up for debating. We do enough as it is to take from the planet, and everyone's friend David Attenborough travels around the planet explaining fairly well why at times we just need to leave wildlife the fuck alone if we can.

Fox-hunting just doesn't have a "friendly" outcome. The only outcome is death and suffering. It's not even humane killing. The death itself not falling into the categories I outlined earlier in the topic around man having to accept the protection of livestock/crops may result in self-defence. When you start going out of your way, into wildlife's homes and killing them for sport, there is going to be "compelling reasons" for it to at least be debated. The foxes aren't even used as a source of food. It's a waste of life for... people to laugh/cheer?

Then the foxes aside, we also need to consider the well-being of the dogs which are pretty much weaponized. Often in inhumane ways which attempt to make them overly vicious and bloodlust. Starvation/beating and inciting them to show aggression/aggressive traits on demand.

There's a lot to unwrap and thankfully most of the country, MPs included, understand there is a fuck load more the UK can be proud of or put forward as the sports/interests of our nation without scrambling to idolise a blood sport. Both with optics, and thinking about the actions of the people wanting to do it and the potential harm caused. Some things are just better off left in the past.
 

Acorn

Member
I mean, you have disabled people voting Tory. You have a Lancastrians who are currently wearing a high-visibility vest to hitchhike because of the Tories getting rid of his bus lane via cuts who says he's going to vote Tory.

If you want to talk about bad leaders, talk about Corbyn, who has not had a lack of media coverage and has lots of MPs. Farron is a Churchill when compared to Corbyn.
Farron fell hook line and sinker into a media trap the first time he was under serious scrutiny.

I mean he probably is better than Corbyn, but the stakes and therefore opportunities to fuck up are more numerous for Labour vs the currently emaciated lds.
 
The problem with fox hunting right now is that it's impossible to enforce the current law.

Fox hunting is a barbaric act that should be left in the past. But hey, the British people will be handing May a blank check to rule them as she sees fit for five years - she is not going to need to care about what's popular.

Farron fell hook line and sinker into a media trap the first time he was under serious scrutiny.

Still better than Corbyn - this is as someone who thinks the media should not be asking theological questions without motivation. Corbyn surrounds himself with incompetents, has failed to lead his party in the entire stretch of time he's run it, and flubs basic questions like "are you actually going to leave if you win?"
 

Acorn

Member
The problem with fox hunting right now is that it's impossible to enforce the current law.

Fox hunting is a barbaric act that should be left in the past. But hey, the British people will be handing May a blank check to rule them as she sees fit for five years - she is not going to need to care about what's popular.



Still better than Corbyn - this is as someone who thinks the media should not be asking theological questions without motivation. Corbyn surrounds himself with incompetents, has failed to lead his party in the entire stretch of time he's run it, and flubs basic questions like "are you actually going to leave if you win?"
I agree with you re theological qs. But when it's asked you need to address it straight away otherwise you got, got. It took him a few days iirc to finally say "No" too.
 
I mean, you have disabled people voting Tory. You have a Lancastrians who are currently wearing a high-visibility vest to hitchhike because of the Tories getting rid of his bus lane via cuts who says he's going to vote Tory.

If you want to talk about bad leaders, talk about Corbyn, who has not had a lack of media coverage and has lots of MPs. Farron is a Churchill when compared to Corbyn.

An imperialist piece of shit?

...sounds about right
 
An imperialist piece of shit?

...sounds about right

whiguyblink.gif


I know you are a lib dem guy but do you really believe that?

Yes - he's better at talking to voters, he's better at getting his point across, he's better at talking to people that disagree with him - Corbyn surrounds himself in a bubble. He's better with the media by and large, except as we've seen when he gets probed on his faith. He doesn't have the "out-of-touch socialist" vibe Corbyn has with a lot of voters despite being on the left himself.

Crucially, he is a unifying figure, someone who is able to make an intelligent point and convey it. He rarely rants - although he has got extremely angry about the crisis with the refugee camps in Calais.

I'm saddened that he won't get a good chance to go against May/Corbyn in a live debate, but I think he'll do much better than both of them at the televised events that are happening later on this month.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I was curious so I looked it up. Farron has a 16/34 approval rating with 50 DK. If his approval ratio held constant but everyone were to know him, he'd have a 32/68 approval rating, or -36. Corbyn has a 15/67 approval rating with 17 DK. If his approval rating held constant but everyone were to know him, he'd have an 18/82 approval rating, or -64. So Corbyn is slightly less than twice as bad as Farron.
 

Snowman

Member
Is it just me or is the language around politics a bit of a mess? I'm talking about words like liberal, conservative etc. The way liberal and conservative are often used as opposites but then people say things like fiscally conservative - what's the difference between fiscally conservative and economically liberal, is there one? The way everything either gets referred to as either Left or Right, when in reality things are too complicated to be represented 1-dimensionally like that. I can understand why it's gotten like this (words used differently in different places, words changing over time etc.) but it feels like it should be simpler (not that I have a solution). I've noticed even in this thread you get people constantly talking at cross purposes because of the way these words are poorly defined.
 
Not going to dispute Crab, as Farron's both unknown by a lot of people and about twice as many people dislike him as like him right now.

I personally attribute that mostly to Brexit, as I recall those numbers being somewhat higher before the vote (but that was when he was even newer).

Remember that the right is a united bloc of very fervent voters right now. Honestly, that's dragged Corbyn down more than Farron, but it's dragged Farron down too.

@Snowman, "economically liberal" usually means a supporter of Keynesian economics, whereas "fiscally conservatives" means someone who advocates for a small state.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Is it just me or is the language around politics a bit of a mess? I'm talking about words like liberal, conservative etc. The way liberal and conservative are often used as opposites but then people say things like fiscally conservative - what's the difference between fiscally conservative and economically liberal, is there one? The way everything either gets referred to as either Left or Right, when in reality things are too complicated to be represented 1-dimensionally like that. I can understand why it's gotten like this (words used differently in different places, words changing over time etc.) but it feels like it should be simpler (not that I have a solution). I've noticed even in this thread you get people constantly talking at cross purposes because of the way these words are poorly defined.

The word Liberal is the most confusing, as it traditionally means entirely different things to US and EU audiences. Bring in the Internet era and people over here using the US definition willy nilly and things get really muddy really fast.

For instance, per the EU definition, the Liberal Democrats are indeed the most Liberal party, while Labour sit to the left of them.
 
For instance, per the EU definition, the Liberal Democrats are a Liberal party, while Labour aren't, despite the Libs being to the right of Labour, traditionally.

Labour: socialist/social democrat.
Lib Dems: social liberal/economic liberal/some social democrats.

Labour are of the socialist tradition, the Lib Dems are mostly from the liberal tradition.

In the US, because socialism was never really a big thing after about 1945, liberal just means "not conservative".
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Labour: socialist/social democrat.
Lib Dems: social liberal/economic liberal/some social democrats.

Labour are of the socialist tradition, the Lib Dems are mostly from the liberal tradition.

In the US, because socialism was never really a big thing after about 1945, liberal just means "not conservative".

That's a better way of describing it, yup.
 

Spaghetti

Member
While we're on about political positions, "socially liberal, fiscal conservative" is the ultimate fence-sitter position.

I used to say that because I couldn't be arsed getting into arguments, but eventually I came to learn that fiscal conservatism would almost always result in social conservatism too as a result of economic policy/small state practices.
 
That's also the big problem with saying any Labour split would work with the Lib Dems. Socialism (even social democrats) and liberalism do not mix well. And they'd have to sing at Glee Club and they'd not know all the songs.

OH, if folks want to look at lots of polls of leaders over time - here's Ipsos Mori's data.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/research...Monitor-Satisfaction-Ratings-1997Present.aspx

And Yougov's data since 2015:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...zcc1hz8ezy/YG Trackers - Leaders Approval.pdf

Data is fun.
 
While we're on about political positions, "socially liberal, fiscal conservative" is the ultimate fence-sitter position.

I used to say that because I couldn't be arsed getting into arguments, but eventually I came to learn than fiscal conservatism would almost always result in social conservatism too as a result of economic policy.

xUf2aQu.png
 

Snowman

Member
I fucking hate that the American definition of liberal is being continually used over here.

What do you consider the american definition to be? As I'm sure I've seen/heard different americans use the word to mean different things as well.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
While we're on about political positions, "socially liberal, fiscal conservative" is the ultimate fence-sitter position.

I used to say that because I couldn't be arsed getting into arguments, but eventually I came to learn that fiscal conservatism would almost always result in social conservatism too as a result of economic policy/small state practices.

It's a cop-out position, because it denies the existence of privilege in giving opportunities. In my experience it's depressingly common a position among middle class people who want to tell people they're left wing, but are glad they don't have to interact with 'scum', i.e. the poor and desperate.
 

Acorn

Member
What do you consider the american definition to be? As I'm sure I've seen/heard different americans use the word to mean different things as well.
Anything to the left of republicans who would be pretty much UKIP here. So basically everyone but racists is liberal using their definition.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
What do you consider the american definition to be? As I'm sure I've seen/heard different americans use the word to mean different things as well.

Socially Liberal, i.e. for workers rights, feminism, gay rights, all the stuff that should be basic human decency.
 

Acorn

Member
Aye, they would rather spend 2 billion locking people up than 1 billion helping them out.
I still can't believe how normalised foodbanks became. It happened rapidly too.

General public was just like *shrug* got mine. 8 years ago this was unthinkable
 
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