• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin

Status
Not open for further replies.
Doesn't particularly matter at this point, it's still a giant mark against Eagle.

I just don't think it's the killing blow, there's many pro-intervention potential candidates like Dan Jarvis or David Miliband who would have a much better chance of success than Angela Eagle.

Eagle's problems are so clear; it's actually astounding how bad the Labour party is at choosing leaders.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
I just don't think it's the killing blow, there's many pro-intervention potential candidates like Dan Jarvis or David Miliband who would have a much better chance of success than Angela Eagle.

David Miliband is no longer an MP and therefore cannot be leader.
 

Faddy

Banned
Do people just forget that public opinion was largely pro-Iraq war at the time, or that Tony Blair was returned to power 2 years after with a strong majority?

That is being highly selective. The Tories were pro-Iraq as well so it wasn't a key issue.

The parties that were anti-Iraq, the Lib Dems, SNP and Respect all gained seats. In fact the Lib Dem seat total was higher than what Clegg Mania achieved.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Nobody has been selected to replace Jo Cox yet

parachuting in a Westminster favourite into a murdered woman's seat would be the most horrific looking PR move since... I don't even have an appropriate term of reference. This is not going to happen.
 
parachuting in a Westminster favourite into a murdered woman's seat would be the most horrific looking PR move since... I don't even have an appropriate term of reference. This is not going to happen.

What does the manner of Jo Cox's death have anything to do with it? If anything, filling her seat with the future leader of the party would be a tribute.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
What does the manner of Jo Cox's death have anything to do with it? If anything, filling her seat with the future leader of the party would be a tribute.

Please don't ever become an advisor to a political party. I don't know how to explain how awful this looks because it is something that should be close to obvious to a normally functioning human being. Essentially, it looks like the Westminster old boys are taking advantage of the woman's death to be able to put in some non-local crony to take out the duly elected leader of the Labour Party because they can't stomach the membership. You may as well shit all over a Union Jack and fling at the Queen.
 
Please don't ever become an advisor to a political party. I don't know how to explain how awful this looks because it is something that should be close to obvious to a normally functioning human being. Essentially, it looks like the Westminster old boys are taking advantage of the woman's death to be able to put in some non-local crony to take out the duly elected leader of the Labour Party because they can't stomach the membership. You may as well shit all over a Union Jack and fling at the Queen.

Wow, I think this is an extremely cynical perspective. David Miliband was an MP for 12 years and a government minister for 10, he's not exactly being 'parachuted in'. Not only that, but he's the president of the International Rescue Committee, doing work Jo Cox aligned herself with her entire life.

Cox was one of Corbyn's biggest critics in the PLP; this is the future of the Labour party we're talking about, not a 'cynical ploy'. Everyone knows the leadership was stolen from David Miliband in 2010; there's a good chance none of this would be happening if he had been leader in 2015.

Anyway, this is just a hypothetical best case scenario. I think it's pretty obvious that the PLP, for all their talk and resignation letters, is utterly incapable of operating in such a strategic or even pragmatic way.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
David Miliband is fucking terrible. Time truly does make the heart grow fonder. He was not an accomplished minister. He was complicit in torture/rendition. Ed is far better and more decent, people just like to judge on appearance.
 
Ed is far better and more decent, people just like to judge on appearance.

Aye. Ed had other shortcomings, obv, but in today's media-oriented universe, the man was simply too freaking weird looking to be seen as a Great Man. Couldn't turn it into an endearing trait either, a la Boris.

Ignoring their views, is the same problem farage and, say, ted cruz would have if they actually had a proper shot at the top.

Blue circles were primary candidates in the US for the Democrats in 2008
Aye, i'm aware, hence "american climate". Can see your point about Dennis, tho.
 

Hazzuh

Member
So, it looks like Corbyn might have some difficulty actually getting on the ballot in the case of a leadership election. The labour party rules are ambiguous on whether he needs
MPs to nominate him. There is some precedent for MPs needing to nominate, Kinnock did in 1988 when Benn (organised by Corbyn, so much for loyalty to the leader then..) challenged him. The NEC will make a decision in the next few days I think, here are some tweets I found interesting on it:

1. Fwiw, Labour constitution is a crap piece of legal drafting. But here are some thoughts. http://labourlist.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Rule-Book-2013.pdf …

2. Most relevant part is Chapter 4 - but a court would consider context of rule book as a whole, so don't fixate on a particular clause.

3. Chapter 4(1) provides elections "shall be
conducted in a fair, open and transparent manner". Fairness is key. Even-handedness

4. This would mean candidates must be treated equally, unless there is a specific reason otherwise. So this is starting point.

5. Chapter 4(II) goes on to provide how these fair elections should take place. 4(II)2(b) is our next stop. (Sorry for number/letter soup.)

6. A vacancy under (i) places candidates on level playing field. So fairness is achieved easily.

7. We come then to (ii), when there is no vacancy. The first sentence is about timing of challenger nominations.

8. The problem IMO is the second sentence. Does that apply only to challengers or all nominations?

9. There is nothing in that second sentence to limit it to challengers in the first sentence: "any". So can include incumbent (ie Corbyn).

10. Looking at provision as a whole, sub-clauses iv to vi only really make sense if leader included as a nominee in ii.

11. So: applying rule of fairness, and looking at clause as whole, I can't see anything which means incumbent given advantage re nominees.

12. Had the rules intended an incumbent leader an unfair advantage re clause I fairness, they would have said so. But they don't.

13. There is room for dispute, views will differ. But IMO, more likely than not that a court would hold Corbyn needs same nominations

No fan, but I think Corbyn has the *right* to be on the ballot. And it's a mistake to try and keep him off it. http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-be-used-keep-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-ballot …

While I think it would probably be "fair" if Corbyn was on the ballot I do think there is a certain irony to the Corbynistas decrying the vote of no confidence as illegitimate when they are now wiling to circumvent the rules if they have to in order to get on the ballot.
 
The left have no intention of giving up if Corbyn is excluded from the ballot.

This is from former MP Nick Palmer over at political betting.
It would be quite ridiculous if he wasn't on the ballot and would make the whole ballot an undignified waste of time. I'd certainly boycott it and so would most members - as Tony Blair, hardly a keen Corbynite, observed, it would be a breach of natural justice. We'd simply make sure to elect more sensible NEC members in the imminent NEC election, and ask them to get the necessary changes at Conference to rerun the election with a choice of those who actually want to stand.
 

Pandy

Member
So, it looks like Corbyn might have some difficulty actually getting on the ballot in the case of a leadership election. The labour party rules are ambiguous on whether he needs
MPs to nominate him. There is some precedent for MPs needing to nominate, Kinnock did in 1988 when Benn (organised by Corbyn, so much for loyalty to the leader then..) challenged him. The NEC will make a decision in the next few days I think, here are some tweets I found interesting on it:





While I think it would probably be "fair" if Corbyn was on the ballot I do think there is a certain irony to the Corbynistas decrying the vote of no confidence as illegitimate when they are now wiling to circumvent the rules if they have to in order to get on the ballot.

I'm not a lawyer, etc....
Where there is no vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of party conference. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP.
It reads very clearly to me that only the challengers need to be nominated, and only nominations require 20% support of the PLP. Everything else you read is just people trying to get Corbyn off the ballot.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Claiming you're not interested in winning elections is stupid as all hell, but when 'winning' is actually 'winning at any cost', it absolutely gives me some pause for thought.
 
I think Iraq is to Labour a bit what the EU is (was?) To Tories - an internal schism which not many people give a piss about outside of that group.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I think Iraq is to Labour a bit what the EU is (was?) To Tories - an internal schism which not many people give a piss about outside of that group.

I actually agree. As much of a disaster as the Iraq war was (and still is), and no matter how foul the Labour leadership that forced the country into the war was, I do not think it is a hill to die on for the left.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
I think Iraq is to Labour a bit what the EU is (was?) To Tories - an internal schism which not many people give a piss about outside of that group.

I can see that. I think it matters even less now the Chilcot report is done. The public has definitely moved on.
 
The founder of Momentum :



Good to know winning doesn't matter since the Tories have been doing such a good job :)

BJsgJFJCMAA3Qt7.png
 

Xun

Member
David Miliband is fucking terrible. Time truly does make the heart grow fonder. He was not an accomplished minister. He was complicit in torture/rendition. Ed is far better and more decent, people just like to judge on appearance.
Ed was most definitely the better of the two.
 
There's an important thing Labour needs to think about too, in that they badly need party leadership that can win back the regions, not just the cities.

To win a GE, Labour needs to win back something like 70 seats. The only way they can do that in England alone would be Blair 2.0 - someone who can sit the party firmly in the semi-authoritarian centre-left camp whilst being very popular and having the firm backing of the party engine, AND can run a better campaign than the Tories.

To do that in Wales and Scotland, they badly need their regional parties to resync with their voters.

Even if Eagle was to win the leadership, and Leadsom was to win the Tory leadership and run a ramshackle cabinet for a few years, and there was no realignment or major resurgence of the LDs during that time, then Labour still has to face two major problems:

1. A huge hill to climb to avoid a coalition with the SNP - a centre-left party which is slightly more liberal than New Labour was - in essence, occupying the New Labour space in Scottish politics whilst also appealing to nationalists across the entire spectrum.
2. A strong UKIP presence in lots of seats with Con/Lab marginals in both England and Wales. And UKIP occupy some of the Tory space in English and Welsh politics whilst also appealing to English nationalists from across the entire spectrum.

Add into this that you've got a strong potential of a stronger 'Democrat' party popping up if Corbyn remains, which would probably be a pro-EU liberal party of the centre, and stealing a lot of the people who might well have voted New Labour, but not Old Labour, away.

Either Labour occupies the New Labour space, or it's relegated to the hard left only. This conundrum was understood by John Smith, and then Blair, back in the early 1990s, and it's the core problem of modern Labour. The current situation of Labour acting as an unhappy coalition of New and Old Labour cannot last - it doesn't win the public's confidence, it doesn't run good election campaigns, it doesn't have strong leadership and it's been badly hurt electorally by fighting the SNP and UKIP.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
They won in 1997, 2001 and 2005 - the longest string of consecutive Labour victories in UK political history.

and then they lost. I don't think Tory lite is the answer to Labour's problems. Corbyn was a reaction to that that got out of control and the party obviously needs to wind it back in. Ed's Labour was a lot closer to what we need.
 

Pandy

Member
Claiming you're not interested in winning elections is stupid as all hell, but when 'winning' is actually 'winning at any cost', it absolutely gives me some pause for thought.

It's the classic 'home team' thing in football where no player in the team comes from within 200 miles of the stadium, but the crowd cheer on regardless because 'their team' is winning. No big deal in an entertainment industry like football.

In politics, the idea of 'winning' so that you can forward your political agenda, but having to alter your political agenda to 'win' in the first place, seems ridiculous to me. Unfortunately for Labour, 'New Labour' already happened, so both sides can put up a semi-reasonable claim that Labour is 'their team' and that the other side should go away and start their own team somewhere else.
 

hohoXD123

Member
Pretty telling that the only chance Angela Eagle has of winning is if her main rival cannot enter the competition in the first place.
 
and then they lost. that's how time works.

So did Atlee and Callaghan - like Brown, they faced challenging economic environments.

Hell, every Labour administration has ultimately been voted out after a major economic crisis, other than maybe after Wilson's first term as PM? I don't know much about that period.

Labour has had hard left leaders like Corbyn before. The most obvious example is Foot. Off the top of my head, the only one who was ever successful was Atlee, who was elected following one of, if not the, most extraordinary parliamentary periods in UK history.

The problem I see is that there's no good evidence that Labour tending back to the hard left is a good idea for anything other than ideological cleanliness. Corbyn is more and more Foot 2.0. But worse, he's Foot 2.0 when most of the higher-ups in the party know that what is needed is Blair 2.0 - unlike back when Foot was leader, when moderate Labour didn't have New Labour as a frame of reference to look forwards with.

Hell, if we want to be really pedantic - did Brown really lead the same New Labour as Blair into 2010? Did Blairite, not Brownite, New Labour ever lose a general election?
 

Hazzuh

Member
So did Atlee and Callaghan - like Brown, they faced challenging economic environments.

Hell, every Labour administration has ultimately been voted out after a major economic crisis, other than maybe after Wilson's first term as PM? I don't know much about that period.

Labour has had hard left leaders like Corbyn before. The most obvious example is Foot. Off the top of my head, the only one who was ever successful was Atlee, who was elected following one of, if not the, most extraordinary parliamentary periods in UK history.

The problem I see is that there's no good evidence that Labour tending back to the hard left is a good idea for anything other than ideological cleanliness. Corbyn is more and more Foot 2.0. But worse, he's Foot 2.0 when most of the higher-ups in the party know that what is needed is Blair 2.0 - unlike back when Foot was leader, when moderate Labour didn't have New Labour as a frame of reference to look forwards with.

Attlee was actually not from the left of the party really. In his leadership election he was the "centrist" compromise candidate. He also opposed the General Strike in 1926 which I'm sure left wingers nowerdays would think should disqualify him from leadership. Lansbury and Foot are the only leaders the party ever had who were umambiguously from the "left" of the party really.
 
Attlee was actually not from the left of the party really. In his leadership election he was the "centrist" compromise candidate. He also opposed the General Strike in 1926 which I'm sure left wingers nowerdays would think should disqualify him from leadership. Lansbury and Foot are the only leaders the party ever had who were umambiguously from the "left" of the party really.

That's true. I'd characterise his government as being very left by normal UK standards, though.
 
Attlee was actually not from the left of the party really. In his leadership election he was the "centrist" compromise candidate. He also opposed the General Strike in 1926 which I'm sure left wingers nowerdays would think should disqualify him from leadership. Lansbury and Foot are the only leaders the party ever had who were umambiguously from the "left" of the party really.

And they turned out to be two colossal failures. To be fair to Foot, he wasn't as left as the idiots pushing him to do the stupider things. In terms of history Foot will always be looked upon far more kindly than Corbyn. He was a great man and in different circumstances would have been the perfect leader. Corbyn has none of his qualities.
 

P44

Member
They won in 1997, 2001 and 2005 - the longest string of consecutive Labour victories in UK political history.

Yeah but with the advent of Dave they just come off as unenthusiastic tories now.

Like, where Osbourne is 'Oh man, cuts!'

New Labour seem like 'Oh man, cuts.'

even further to the left, we've got Corbyn like 'fuck cuts'

Honestly I think Corbyn wouldn't have shit the bed so hard if he laid out an actual vision for the North. More than just 'isnt it sad these people are poor', but an actual idea.

Shit, just revamp the white heat of technology speech.

EDIT:

Honestly, I think unless somebody actually good is willing to challenge, the PLP should get on with it. Eagle nor Smith fit this requirement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom